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Dogs of War and the Southern Realms Should Be Separate Things

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  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,124Registered Users
    edited September 2

    yes I see that but that does not deflect the fact that there are Southern Realm Specific units. they may be mercenaries by trade (in Tilea at least) but thats because thats the culture. It doesn't mean that Tilea or Estalia or the Border Princes have no unique units, no dedicated armed forces or guards or knightly orders.

    Yes that's almost exactly what it means. The Southern Realms Specific Units are the DoW, are the Mercenaries. They have no dedicated armed forces aside from Mercenaries on retainer and their Knightly Orders are mostly Mercenaries.

    The only exceptions to this are probably large religious orders who have their own standing military orders. Myrmidia really being the only religious order to have any in any great profusion as Sigmar and Ulric are not present in area.

    Morr does have some military but they are primarily stationed on the borders of Sylvania in the Empire.

    Verena, Shallya, Taal, Rhya, Ranald, Manann all don't have particularly a large militaristic focus.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    @OdTengri

    I thought the Black Guard were More Empire as well but their main chapter house is actually in Luccini and they are based from their first and foremost.

    in fact: parts of the Imperial branch is considered unofficial (apparently)

    its the same with the Knights of the Blazing sun. I assumed they were Mainly empire but in fact Myrmidia is the Goddess they worship and she is mainly focused around Tilea and Estalia, she is looked down upon in the empire.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,124Registered Users
    The Knights of the Blazing Sun are an Empire order, they come from the Empire.

    They started out as a secular Knightly Order from the Empire that fought in Estalia, events took place on that campaign that saw the chapter dedicate itself to Myrmidia and they brought the faith home to the Empire.

    The Black Guard of Morr are a defensive order that defend cemeteries, they are guardians and wardens. They have on exception crusaded against the undead in Khemri.

    The Knights Raven and the Order of the Silver Scythe are both aggressive orders and are stationed in the Empire.

    All Morrites largely don't go to war, they aren't in the business of making people dead. They protect the dead from evil forces and the living from the undead.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    edited September 2
    @OdTengri

    No, seriously, I thought the same but the seat of power for the Cult of Morr is actually not Ostermark but Luccini.

    No, that does not follow at all. Tilea, Estalia and the Border Princes do have unique Aesthetics and units, but each legion attempts to sell themselves differently with a different theme or armour or whatever it is.

    Pikes are a mainstay of the Southern Realms. Crossbows are a mainstay of the Southern Realms. Myrmidia and her followers are a mainstay of the Southern Realms.

    things like the Galloper guns are a unique unit from the Southern Realms. other armies can hire them but where are they from? who are they unique to?

    you keep talking about returning RoR or Dogs of War to their original Parent faction Like with the Ogres or Tichi-Huichi's Raiders...yet you do not seem to follow that this is exactly what I want done for the Southern Realms units.

    If we get Dogs of War, they should have their own unique roster, you seemed to agree with this a while ago. that means returning their Dogs of War to their rightful place and making Legit units out of them, you can Put "Mercenary" before all of their names but it doesn't change where they originate or what aesthetic/fighting style/equipment they have (which is all fundamentally southern Realms)
  • KrunchKrunch Junior Member Posts: 3,831Registered Users
    In my view the Pikemen, crossbowmen, basic knights etc. of Tilea/Estalia(who themselves are largely mercenaries) would function as the core of the DoW army. Then they would have a ton of much more unique(compared to other factions) and perhaps semi-repeatable RoR troops that could be recruited. I don't see what the problem is here, a refined version of Cataph's mod would basically be what I expect.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,124Registered Users

    No, seriously, I thought the same but the seat of power for the Cult of Morr is actually not Ostermark but Luccini.

    Yes the Cult of Morr is based in Luccini, it says that in Tomb of Salvation WFRP 2nd ED.

    No, that does not follow at all. Tilea, Estalia and the Border Princes do have unique Aesthetics and units, but each legion attempts to sell themselves differently with a different theme or armour or whatever it is.

    What?

    Pikes are a mainstay of the Southern Realms. Crossbows are a mainstay of the Southern Realms. Myrmidia and her followers are a mainstay of the Southern Realms.

    Pikes and Crossbows might be the mainstay of the Southern Realms but that doesn't preclude them from being Mercenaries.

    things like the Galloper guns are a unique unit from the Southern Realms. other armies can hire them but where are they from? who are they unique to?

    What? The other Armies, the ones that do the hiring? They would largely be The Empire and other WH Rule Book Factions. I'm not getting the angle your putting forth here or you trying to suggest DoW armies of far off (non southern realms) locals are hiring them.

    Units like Galloper Guns where either hired by the standing military of other nations or they found them selves in a full mercenary army. Full mercenary armies kept their chapter houses in the Southern Realms because that's the only place that provided steady employment but they could be found abroad on contract.

    you keep talking about returning RoR or Dogs of War to their original Parent faction Like with the Ogres or Tichi-Huichi's Raiders...yet you do not seem to follow that this is exactly what I want done for the Southern Realms units.

    DoW was a 5th edition army book not all of it makes sense in an 8th edition context. In 5th edition Golgfag was a DoW mercenary band leader but the Ogre Kingdoms didn't even exist until 6th edition. In the 8th edition Ogre Kingdom Book Golgfag is a Hero level Character and his Maneaters come along side him as a unit option. He cant be in both armies at the same time and he belongs in the Ogre Kingdoms.

    Things changed between 5th and 8th edition, not every thing in earlier editions makes sense in later editions.

    You have to remember that Warhammer started out as an Axiomatic vs. Chaotic world system and Chaos was not Synonymous with evil as the game went on though that became the case.

    Orcs also went from strong green humans to unreasoning beings that only want to fight. To what extent they would work as mercenaries for humans is questionable.

    Basically all I'm saying is that the Grim the divide between the good guys and the bad guys got more extreme in 8th edition and and its not as clear that all of the mercenary arrangements that would have worked in 5th edition would still work in 8th.

    If we get Dogs of War, they should have their own unique roster, you seemed to agree with this a while ago.

    Yes agreed they should have their own Army, Empire clones are not enough for them.

    that means returning their Dogs of War to their rightful place and making Legit units out of them, you can Put "Mercenary" before all of their names but it doesn't change where they originate or what aesthetic/fighting style/equipment they have (which is all fundamentally southern Realms)

    Sorry, numerous people get confused by the DoW and think that they aren't the military of the Southern Realms and then go off on wild tangents about all sorts of hisorical units that should be transcribed onto Estailia/Tilia thinking that they are a blank slate left mostly untouched by GW.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    @OdTengri

    "Yes the Cult of Morr is based in Luccini, it says that in Tomb of Salvation WFRP 2nd ED."


    so why shouldn't they be implemented into the southern Realms?

    "SeanJeanquoi said:
    things like the Galloper guns are a unique unit from the Southern Realms. other armies can hire them but where are they from? who are they unique to?"

    What? The other Armies, the ones that do the hiring? They would largely be The Empire and other WH Rule Book Factions. I'm not getting the angle your putting forth here or you trying to suggest DoW armies of far off (non southern realms) locals are hiring them.

    Units like Galloper Guns where either hired by the standing military of other nations or they found them selves in a full mercenary army. Full mercenary armies kept their chapter houses in the Southern Realms because that's the only place that provided steady employment but they could be found abroad on contract.


    Galloper guns, Brazinga's Besiegers and so on are units that were formed in the Southern Realms of Tilea, Estalia etc. they come from there; thats their culture. Their 'parent faction' the one they truly belong to is the Southern Realms.

    you were saying that x unit of Ogres or Lizards should just be given to their parent faction rather than allowing them to be mercenaries and I'm saying that Galloper Guns and other similar, inherently Tilean units should be given to their parent faction as a main unit. (the special named versions could be RoR and still available to the Dogs of War as a faction of its own, but still mainly rooted in the Southern Realms)

    "DoW was a 5th edition army book not all of it makes sense in an 8th edition context. In 5th edition Golgfag was a DoW mercenary band leader but the Ogre Kingdoms didn't even exist until 6th edition. In the 8th edition Ogre Kingdom Book Golgfag is a Hero level Character and his Maneaters come along side him as a unit option. He cant be in both armies at the same time and he belongs in the Ogre Kingdoms.

    Things changed between 5th and 8th edition, not every thing in earlier editions makes sense in later editions. "


    Yes I know. This is why CA has not Implemented the Southern Realms or the Dogs of War so far, because it would take away so many units and named characters from other factions that might desperately need them. Anakonda is one of the only named Amazonian characters in the whole setting I believe and Beorg Bearstruck would make a fantastic Non aligned option to Norsca.

    However, you see this adds to my point: This is one of the reasons I believe its very important to have the Southern Realms stand on its own Two feet: the Dogs of War roster will be stripped bare before the end of game 3 as CA takes chunks out of it to create Albion or the Amazons or Araby (who also lack named Characters).

    The List of Mercenaries and DoW units may very well Dwindle depending on how useful they will be elsewhere...except for the Southern Realms units themselves, they are the only ones who are 100% protected from this.

    This is one of the reasons I think its important to flesh out the three parts of: the Southern Realms, Dogs of War and the Outlaws/Pirates on their own because if we just combined them all, the Southern realms/Dogs of War faction as a whole will get progressively less and less options and will be a complete mess of units from every other faction + pirates and outlaws and italian/Greek units all mashed together with no cohesive Aesthetic or theme to link them all together.

    "SeanJeanquoi said:
    that means returning their Dogs of War to their rightful place and making Legit units out of them, you can Put "Mercenary" before all of their names but it doesn't change where they originate or what aesthetic/fighting style/equipment they have (which is all fundamentally southern Realms)

    Sorry, numerous people get confused by the DoW and think that they aren't the military of the Southern Realms and then go off on wild tangents about all sorts of historical units that should be transcribed onto Estailia/Tilia thinking that they are a blank slate left mostly untouched by GW."


    Well I would argue that we could get some Leonardo De Miragliano Contraptions like a helecopter or some of his alchemical bombs.

    We could get Spartan esc units (Based on the Fellowship RoR), Pikemen Phalanx, Hoplite's and so on based on what we know of their aesthetic and units that already exist in their lore or army book. I don't think we need to step outside their lore too far to create generic unit types.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Posts: 10,051Registered Users
    This thread just reads as: I don't like the aesthetic of the race so let's change them.

    Well I don't like Norsca, but it is what it is.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • SaurianDruidSaurianDruid Posts: 922Registered Users
    The way they implemented Nakai is almost exactly how I've been saying they should implement Dogs of War for years now.

    The Southern Realms should remain as NPC nations. There just isn't enough lore and land to flesh them out into a full fledged DLC. Especially when you consider that Tilea, Estalia, and the Border Princes are all distinct factions unique from one another. Furthermore we need some empty NPC nations on the map for enemies to fight. Not every faction on the map needs to be loaded with legendary lords.

    Instead Southern Realms would be NPC nations using only the tier 1 and 2 Dogs of War core units for their garrisons and armies. The playable faction should be the Dogs of War who operate as a Horde much like Nakai. Also like Nakai they would be tied to a vassal state. In this case one of the Southern Realms.

    However unlike Nakai the Dogs of War factions could change who their vassal state is. This would happen in the form of contracts that AI nations put up that can be accepted by the Dogs of War. The contract involves a lump sum paid upfront plus payment per turn and a time limit for how long the contract lasts. Should it be accepted the Dogs of War function just like Nakai does with his vassal. Once the contract is over the Dogs of War either renew the contract or look for a new one.

    Contract pay would be based around how wealthy the nation is and how weak the nation is. Very wealthy but weak nations, like the Southern Realms tend to be, would pay the most while very powerful nations likely wouldn't be willing to pay as much.

    Dogs of War gameplay would thus revolve around amassing money to fund their armies and Horde recruitment buildings. Possibly even with a unique economy based win condition similar to the Wood Elves and their tree but implemented better. Something like a treasure hoard you're stockpiling for retirement.

    Southern Realms would always be in need of armies so they would always be willing to pay handsomely. However you could choose to leave them to their own devices and work for Ulthuan or the Empire if you wish. Maybe even Dark Elves or Norsca if you're willing to work with villains. It could make for the ultimate campaign in terms of freedom of choice and doing what you want to do.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    @OdTengri

    If we distinguish between the three and represent their differences in their mechanics and themes then it will function much better and allow for more content in the future.

    the Southern Realms as a whole would still consist of these three core elements but, how i would do it: Outlaws and Pirates have to be recruited from separate building chains that could have some negative effects.

    they would be less loyal than core SR units, have a higher upkeep and be distinctly different in theme and gameplay. these units would also be available to Sartosa and any future outlaw/DoW/Pirate faction.

    Dogs of War would function in a similar way, with them being distinctly alien to the Southern realms in aesthetics and mechanically too. you couldn't recruit them from any buildings, but rather from a unique mechanic/recruitment pool. you could recruit DoW lords similar to how Wulfhart will recruit his hunters.

    This would allow for an expansion upon the Rogue armies. it could facilitate a future revision of sartosa's roster and allow for other pirate factions to make it in.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    @Commissar_G

    No. I actually really like the aesthetic...the aesthetic of the Southern Realms itself. what I dislike is the fact that I see alot of potential here. Potential that may well be squandered if we try and squeeze all of these different elements under the same umbrella and call it one faction.

    Making them one faction would erase so many of their characters and so much of what makes them a unique melding pot of Mercs, Criminals, Pirates and princes.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    edited September 3
    @SaurianDruid

    I Disagree and I'm working on an army list that may persuade you otherwise (excluding Dogs of War from other Races, I've got about 20ish units. the average warhammer faction has around 35 or so)

    I don't think the vague differences between them should affect their implementation. they could and should be implemented as one culture with multiple facets as I have been saying.

    the main issue I have with the archetype you are suggesting is the fact that it only offers one playstyle and the basis for that playstyle is that it has nothing unique.

    What I mean by that is: the whole point of Dogs of War Rogue Armies is that they have no unique aesthetic. they are an amalgamation of a bunch of different units from almost every faction in the game + some unique-ish stuff from the Southern Realms. This could be an interesting novelty in and of itself, but the problem is that there is a unique "Race" (in this case: Culture would be a better word) underneath the Hodgepodge Mercenary bands that will be largely, if not entirely ignored if we make the Dogs of War the only focus.

    then there is the issue of: Who gets to be in charge? if the Dogs of War and Southern Realms are combined into one then who is leading the armies? the Southern Realms characters like Lucrezzia, Borgio the Besieger and Lorenzo Lupo? or is it going to be the Dogs of War like Mengil Manhide or Asernil Dragonlord?

    We could potentially have them all, but in total there are over 10 Characters fighting for a lord position (if we consider them all one faction). If we did it my way then the door could be left open for future DLC, for more playable Southern Realms Lords and More playable DoW lords as separate entities. If they were one faction then the amount of lords that could be added to them would be limited drastically (or it would seem incredibility unfair since they could get as many as 4 extra lords).

    I do like what you suggest, but not if its the only option. I like it as a option of its own, alongside the Southern Realms rather than instead of them.

    There is no reason that we cannot implement Dogs of War as you suggest as well as the Southern Realms as I Suggest.

  • SaurianDruidSaurianDruid Posts: 922Registered Users
    edited September 3



    I Disagree and I'm working on an army list that may persuade you otherwise (excluding Dogs of War from other Races, I've got about 20ish units. the average warhammer faction has around 35 or so)

    I don't think the vague differences between them should affect their implementation. they could and should be implemented as one culture with multiple facets as I have been saying.

    If you take those 20ish units out of the Dogs of War and give them to "Southern Realms" then you've succeeded in gutting the Dogs of War roster. I also disagree that the differences between Tilea, Estalia, and the Border Princes are negligible. The Border Princes especially are an entirely unique beast. Most of their princes come from Empire or Bretonnia and the "nation", if you can call it that, is wildly different from Tilea.

    Actually, the hodge bodge nature of a Dogs of War army is probably a better representative of the Border Princes than painting over them with Tilean colors. One of their princes is a Strigoi for crying out loud.

    the main issue I have with the archetype you are suggesting is the fact that it only offers one playstyle and the basis for that playstyle is that it has nothing unique.

    This is just untrue. There is no faction in the game with this playstyle. You can play like Nakai and grow your chosen vassal over the course of the game. Aiding Tilea into growing into a global power. Or you can ditch your roots and sail across the world working for many different nations. Functioning almost like a typical Horde but always doing your pillaging in the name of some nation you're taking money from at the time.

    Meanwhile your Southern Realms would ultimately play just like the Empire or Bretonnia or any landed nation. I can't see the army playstyle differing much from the Empire either. Pikemen. Crossbowmen. Light cavalry. Maybe some knights. This doesn't strike me as very unique just because they are dressed like Italians rather than Germans.

    What I mean by that is: the whole point of Dogs of War Rogue Armies is that they have no unique aesthetic. they are an amalgamation of a bunch of different units from almost every faction in the game + some unique-ish stuff from the Southern Realms. This could be an interesting novelty in and of itself, but the problem is that there is a unique "Race" (in this case: Culture would be a better word) underneath the Hodgepodge Mercenary bands that will be largely, if not entirely ignored if we make the Dogs of War the only focus.

    The fact they are a hodge podge of many races under one banner is their unique aesthetic. To say nothing of the unique gameplay that I outlined above.

    Additionally, at least in my vision, the Dogs of War would still have their Tilea focused units alongside the ones they borrow from other nations.

    then there is the issue of: Who gets to be in charge? if the Dogs of War and Southern Realms are combined into one then who is leading the armies? the Southern Realms characters like Lucrezzia, Borgio the Besieger and Lorenzo Lupo? or is it going to be the Dogs of War like Mengil Manhide or Asernil Dragonlord?

    This isn't an issue. Didn't you read my suggestion? Southern Realms would be independent nation states and you the player would function as mercenaries that fight their battles and claim land to give it to them. Just like how Nakai works. the mercenaries don't rule the Southern Realms. They just function as the bulk of their military power. The AI controls the Southern Realms. You're there to defend their lands and cast down their enemies. Or, if you choose, abandon them to fight for a different realm entirely.

    We could potentially have them all, but in total there are over 10 Characters fighting for a lord position (if we consider them all one faction). If we did it my way then the door could be left open for future DLC, for more playable Southern Realms Lords and More playable DoW lords as separate entities. If they were one faction then the amount of lords that could be added to them would be limited drastically (or it would seem incredibility unfair since they could get as many as 4 extra lords).

    The door is always open for future DLC. Your way just means the Dogs of War and Southern Realms will have their actually important characters split between them. Just like you're splitting the Dogs of War roster to build up the Southern Realms.

    I do like what you suggest, but not if its the only option. I like it as a option of its own, alongside the Southern Realms rather than instead of them.

    There is no reason that we cannot implement Dogs of War as you suggest as well as the Southern Realms as I Suggest.

    The issue would be trying to come up with enough units to make two functional armies. Dogs of War are good as a hodge podge but they shouldn't be just units borrowed from other nations. If you take away all the Tilean units you're leaving Dogs of War bare bones.
  • DerPhonixDerPhonix Senior Member Posts: 408Registered Users
    edited September 3
    Agreed. They should pull the Tilean units out of the DOW army list and make Tilea its own faction IMO. DOW will still have Estalian units along with tons of units from all other races to include.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 5,817Registered Users
    On the OP:

    I see where you're coming from, but I think your idea forgets that Tilea is a hub where mercenaries go to get hired. A Tilean army is pretty much always a mercenary army, and while the bulk of the army is likely to be Tileans, they're not going to have a shortage of foreign mercenaries either.

    If I was planning them out, here's how I'd do it:

    Step 1: Use the list of generic DoW units in the 6E army list to produce the core of the list. This is mostly composed of Southern Realm natives, but does include some units that are either prolific mercenaries, commonly found living among humans, or both: namely, Norse, Dwarfs, Ogres, and Halflings.

    Step 2: Create additional generic units out of some of the named units that have closer ties to Tilea or the Southern Realms in general. So this could include armoured crossbowmen, horse-drawn cannons, birdmen, and maybe even giants.

    Step 3: Named regiments that are improvements over the base generic units provide RoR candidates. These can include the Republican Guard (heavy armoured pikemen), the Leopard Company (light pikemen), Vespero's Vendetta (duellists), the Marksmen of Miragliano (crossbowmen), Braganza's Besiegers (crossbowmen with a gold shield), Voland's Venators (heavy cavalry), Lumpin Croop's Fighting Cocks (halfling skirmishers), and the actual Bronzino's Gallopping Guns and Birdmen of Catrazza. These can be acquired via normal means.

    Step 4: Exotic named regiments provide RoR candidates (and maybe the odd unique character such as Asarnil) that are very different to the base units. Having access to such RoRs is a specific DoW advantage, and must be earned through quests or the like in campaign rather than simply through leveling a Lord. This category could include the Bearmen, the Slayer Pirates, the Wolfboyz, the Armoured Orcs, the Cursed Company, and the Manflayers. Acquiring one of these special RoRs may have diplomatic consequences and/or prevent the hiring of other special RoRs - for instance, hiring Ruglud's Armoured Orcs could reduce your standing with factions that are hostile to Orcs and Drong's Slayer Pirates might refuse to work for someone who has greenskins on the payroll.
    corvo said:

    Actually, "southern realms" is what should be divided.
    since Tilea, Estalia and Border princes are pretty different in all kind of things. culture, structure, goverment, army...

    I actually find annoying that people think that "TEB" should be 1 DLC. they are 3 factions.
    it would be like people asking for a DLC with empire and bretonnia just because they're humans with connected borders

    A large part of it is that it's essentially a 'least bad fit'.

    Border Princes are a hodgepodge of groups, with most coming from the Empire, Bretonnia, or Tilea. However, pretty much all Border Princes go pretty mercenary over a few generations, and it's probably reasonable to say that a Border Prince shouldn't have access to the high-end Empire or Bretonnia stuff, but since the DoW are mercenaries, a sufficiently rich Border Prince would presumably be able to get just about anything from their list. So DoW is a least-bad fit there.

    Similarly, for Estalia, we don't know much about their military... but we do know that culturally they're a lot closer to Tilea than anyone else, and historical analogue suggests that Fantasy Spain is likely to have a similar set of military units to the pikemen, crossbowmen (Renaissance Spain had handguns, but close enough), light infantry swordsmen, and cavalry that forms the core of a DoW army. It might still be a placeholder, but it's a less bad placeholder than anything else we're likely to get.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    edited September 3
    @SaurianDruid

    "If you take those 20ish units out of the Dogs of War and give them to "Southern Realms" then you've succeeded in gutting the Dogs of War roster."


    No I have not, because Dogs of war would also have access to the Outlaw and pirate units like Cutthroats, slayer Pirates, Norscan Reavers, Ogre Pirates and so on. and they could have limited access to their parent factions unit roster (like I said in my OP). Also, as I just said to you in my last post: the Dogs of War armies would still have access to the actual Dogs of War SR units that their core roster would be based off of.

    SR could have Galloper Guns as a unique unit, which is based off of "Bronzino's Galloper guns". SR would get Galloper Guns as a core unit, however the Dogs of War armies could still recruit and Field "Bronzino's Galloper guns" the unique version (potentially a RoR) could and should be shared between the two factions. This goes for all SR Regiments of Renown like this.

    As I keep saying: I want them to be separate only in the sense that they can both stand on their own. they should still form a symbiotic relationship.

    "I also disagree that the differences between Tilea, Estalia, and the Border Princes are negligible. The Border Princes especially are an entirely unique beast. Most of their princes come from Empire or Bretonnia and the "nation", if you can call it that, is wildly different from Tilea."


    Yet they have almost no info on their unique culture. its all well and good to gesture toward a vague difference but when translating it into the game I think erasing those differences would be fine because they have very little potential and only complicate their implementation.

    Perhaps the Border Princes could be more of an Empire clone but then, isn't that what we are hoping a DoW/Southern Realms DLC will change? they could have more Empire units and less

    "Actually, the hodge bodge nature of a Dogs of War army is probably a better representative of the Border Princes than painting over them with Tilean colours. One of their princes is a Strigoi for crying out loud."


    Gashnag would be a great inclusion. His presence does not inherently change anything about how the faction should be implemented because he pretends to be a cursed human and he does not rule a true vampire Kingdom. he is the only think out of place in his kingdom so at most: he could be a SR lord with some vampire units but honestly he could and perhaps should just be a Strigoi Lord in charge of a SR faction.

    Well then, perhaps the Border Princes could be the focal point of the Dogs of War Rogue Armies or some kind of middle ground between the two, I am open to that idea.

    "SeanJeanquoi said:
    the main issue I have with the archetype you are suggesting is the fact that it only offers one playstyle and the basis for that playstyle is that it has nothing unique."

    "This is just untrue. There is no faction in the game with this playstyle. You can play like Nakai and grow your chosen vassal over the course of the game. Aiding Tilea into growing into a global power. Or you can ditch your roots and sail across the world working for many different nations. Functioning almost like a typical Horde but always doing your pillaging in the name of some nation you're taking money from at the time.

    Meanwhile your Southern Realms would ultimately play just like the Empire or Bretonnia or any landed nation. I can't see the army playstyle differing much from the Empire either. Pikemen. Crossbowmen. Light cavalry. Maybe some knights. This doesn't strike me as very unique just because they are dressed like Italians rather than Germans."


    Your Response here misses the context I give in the very next paragraph so I don't have much to say. I'm not saying that your suggested Nomadic DoW would have a completely unoriginal campaign. I am saying that the premise of their roster is that it is unoriginal.

    In my suggestion to split the two I am Defending your idea while at the same time trying to defend the inclusion of SR factions on their own.

    In your suggestion what you are doing is propping up your idea at the expense of the SR factions. I want both playstyles, you want one to erase the other.

    "SeanJeanquoi said:
    What I mean by that is: the whole point of Dogs of War Rogue Armies is that they have no unique aesthetic. they are an amalgamation of a bunch of different units from almost every faction in the game + some unique-ish stuff from the Southern Realms. This could be an interesting novelty in and of itself, but the problem is that there is a unique "Race" (in this case: Culture would be a better word) underneath the Hodgepodge Mercenary bands that will be largely, if not entirely ignored if we make the Dogs of War the only focus."

    The fact they are a hodgepodge of many races under one banner is their unique aesthetic. To say nothing of the unique gameplay that I outlined above.

    Additionally, at least in my vision, the Dogs of War would still have their Tilea focused units alongside the ones they borrow from other nations."


    Yes, it is a novel prospect based on the idea of having an unoriginal faction that combines bits and bobs from all other factions. this is what I meant before. I'm not saying its a bad idea or a poor one, I am suggesting that an actual unique culture exists in the SR and I would prefer it not be overwritten for the sake of a Derivative nomadic faction (which would be cool in its own right).

    Both of our versions have the DoW with Tilean units to some degree, if not the exact same degree.

    "SeanJeanquoi said:
    then there is the issue of: Who gets to be in charge? if the Dogs of War and Southern Realms are combined into one then who is leading the armies? the Southern Realms characters like Lucrezzia, Borgio the Besieger and Lorenzo Lupo? or is it going to be the Dogs of War like Mengil Manhide or Asernil Dragonlord?"

    This isn't an issue. Didn't you read my suggestion? Southern Realms would be independent nation states and you the player would function as mercenaries that fight their battles and claim land to give it to them. Just like how Nakai works. the mercenaries don't rule the Southern Realms. They just function as the bulk of their military power. The AI controls the Southern Realms. You're there to defend their lands and cast down their enemies. Or, if you choose, abandon them to fight for a different realm entirely."


    You seem to have misunderstood me here somewhat. I know exactly what you meant in how this would play out, I understand the Premise. the problem is: do we draw from Dogs of War lords (mengil, Asernil etc) or from SR lords (Lucrezzia, Borgio etc)

    if they are all one faction ( and a nomad faction no less) then either they will become imensely bloated or most of the lords and heroes will fall by the wayside because you want them to all be one thing.

    "SeanJeanquoi said:
    We could potentially have them all, but in total there are over 10 Characters fighting for a lord position (if we consider them all one faction). If we did it my way then the door could be left open for future DLC, for more playable Southern Realms Lords and More playable DoW lords as separate entities. If they were one faction then the amount of lords that could be added to them would be limited drastically (or it would seem incredibility unfair since they could get as many as 4 extra lords)."

    The door is always open for future DLC. Your way just means the Dogs of War and Southern Realms will have their actually important characters split between them. Just like you're splitting the Dogs of War roster to build up the Southern Realms."


    The door is not open for 9 Lord Packs and FLC lords for a single nomadic faction!

    The Dogs of War may not have enough units to justify even a single lord pack after their initial implementation (Unless we go my route where they are three smaller symbiotic elements that could be expanded upon individually)

    As one massive blob of a faction, all the eggs would be in one basket and there would be little to no room for expansion unless CA branched them off after the fact.

    then I would like to bring up another issue I mentioned Prior: The Southern Realms contain many units and lords that could be and may well be used elsewhere in the future to create new LP's for their parent factions or new factions entirely.

    "SeanJeanquoi said:
    I do like what you suggest, but not if its the only option. I like it as a option of its own, alongside the Southern Realms rather than instead of them.

    There is no reason that we cannot implement Dogs of War as you suggest as well as the Southern Realms as I Suggest. "

    The issue would be trying to come up with enough units to make two functional armies. Dogs of War are good as a hodgepodge but they shouldn't be just units borrowed from other nations. If you take away all the Tilean units you're leaving Dogs of War bare bones."


    Again: no I am not. they would have a symbiotic nature.

    There are enough units for a solid SR army roster

    the Dogs of War have a reasonable amount of units on their own. If you add to that the Pirate/outlaw units, the SR Regiments of Renown and then perhaps some units from their parent faction: the result would be more than enough.

    the Mechanics for the nomads could stay exactly as you suggested because that is a very good foundation. DoW Rogue Armies could still pick and choose who to side with and they would still have the ability to crush SR if they so choose.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    @Draxynnic

    "I see where you're coming from, but I think your idea forgets that Tilea is a hub where mercenaries go to get hired. A Tilean army is pretty much always a mercenary army, and while the bulk of the army is likely to be Tileans, they're not going to have a shortage of foreign mercenaries either."

    As I have been saying throughout this threat: I do not believe that they should be entirely separate entities. I believe the two should be separated only so that we can get both of them at at the same time: Dogs of War Rogue armies and the unique cultural Regions of the Southern Realms. SR should still have a symbiotic relationship with the DoW and rely on them to patch holes in their roster.

    "Step 1: Use the list of generic DoW units in the 6E army list to produce the core of the list. This is mostly composed of Southern Realm natives, but does include some units that are either prolific mercenaries, commonly found living among humans, or both: namely, Norse, Dwarfs, Ogres, and Halflings.

    Step 2: Create additional generic units out of some of the named units that have closer ties to Tilea or the Southern Realms in general. So this could include armoured crossbowmen, horse-drawn cannons, birdmen, and maybe even giants.

    Step 3: Named regiments that are improvements over the base generic units provide RoR candidates. These can include the Republican Guard (heavy armoured pikemen), the Leopard Company (light pikemen), Vespero's Vendetta (duellists), the Marksmen of Miragliano (crossbowmen), Braganza's Besiegers (crossbowmen with a gold shield), Voland's Venators (heavy cavalry), Lumpin Croop's Fighting Cocks (halfling skirmishers), and the actual Bronzino's Gallopping Guns and Birdmen of Catrazza. These can be acquired via normal means.

    Step 4: Exotic named regiments provide RoR candidates (and maybe the odd unique character such as Asarnil) that are very different to the base units. Having access to such RoRs is a specific DoW advantage, and must be earned through quests or the like in campaign rather than simply through leveling a Lord. This category could include the Bearmen, the Slayer Pirates, the Wolfboyz, the Armoured Orcs, the Cursed Company, and the Manflayers. Acquiring one of these special RoRs may have diplomatic consequences and/or prevent the hiring of other special RoRs - for instance, hiring Ruglud's Armoured Orcs could reduce your standing with factions that are hostile to Orcs and Drong's Slayer Pirates might refuse to work for someone who has greenskins on the payroll."

    That is essentially what I have been doing over the past few days. I'm basically done constructing the rosters, now I just need the Visual guide and the script with Background info, Sources, and justification for why things are the way I have constructed.
  • ZehirutZehirut Posts: 41Registered Users
    Considering how minor and irrelevant those two are to the mayor part of the lore, is either they are added as a combined force or not added at all, I really doubt you can make something interesting enough out of them to get people to pay for it as separated entities, also giving mercenaries to the existing factions would destroy their identity, being a collage of things is fine for the DoW that’s their stuff, but I prefer to kept that far away from the currently playable factions
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 5,817Registered Users
    @SeanJeanquoi Sure, I said what I said knowing that there'd be a fair amount of overlap between ideas.

    My main point of contention, however, can probably be summed up here:

    No I have not, because Dogs of war would also have access to the Outlaw and pirate units like Cutthroats, slayer Pirates, Norscan Reavers, Ogre Pirates and so on. and they could have limited access to their parent factions unit roster (like I said in my OP). Also, as I just said to you in my last post: the Dogs of War armies would still have access to the actual Dogs of War SR units that their core roster would be based off of.

    What's the point of stripping out the mercenaries who are dwarfs, Norscans, Ogres, and so on, only to replace them with "outlaws and pirates" who are dwarfs, Norscans, Ogres and so on? Especially since CA has explicitly made Sartosa a different list, for better or worse?

    If any such distinction is to be made, just make it one of "local mercenaries" versus "foreign mercenaries".
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,682Registered Users
    DoW is Tilea and Estalia.

    You have no idea what you are talking about OP.

    How about splitting the Empire from state troops and knightly orders next?
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • Commissar_GCommissar_G Senior Member Posts: 10,051Registered Users

    DoW is Tilea and Estalia.

    You have no idea what you are talking about OP.

    How about splitting the Empire from state troops and knightly orders next?

    Part of this is CA's fault. The Southern Realms is just a geographically region and so people don't try to confederate those factions as The Empire. It's literally meaningless.

    Now people think they're a race.
    "As a sandbox game everyone, without exception, should be able to play the game exactly as they see fit and that means providing the maximum scope possible." - ~UNiOnJaCk~
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 3,007Registered Users
    Okay this misses some big points.

    1. There are no Southern Realms, there are Tilea, Estalia, and Border Princes. Before they were often referred to individually or just by their initials. Estalia and BP were never really brought up by the people who ran those armies if they ran the books. The BP are not even really mentioned, and Estalia barely. Southern Realms is a term invented by CA to dump them into as a category. Aka, other humans that will be Empire Clones. They do not follow the same rules, function, or lore. Especially the BP, and even Estalian armies are quoted as often being more brigands hired up from the local hills rather than the exotic or levels of Tilea. And the Border Princes are barely populated microversions of the Empire, Bretonnia, Vampire Counts, Orc Camps, Beastmen hordes, and small Tilean city states.

    2. The Dogs of War were specifically killed off because they could be played by anybody. What you use as a good point to split, GW used as the point to specifically kill them off. And I agreed with part of that. It let armies hyper focus on their strengths, give them things they just didn't have at all, or erase their weaknesses. This holds true for this game as well. It removes distinction for the other armies. They will not be mercanaries for every race.

    3. DoW were primarily Tileans. Bulk of their forces are Tileans, I mean their base level units like pikemen or galloper guns. If you remove all the Tilean things you have no army left at all that would function. They'd have to make a large chunk from scratch.

    4. Tilea does not keep standing armies of their own. They exclusively hire the DoW. They're not separable. Tilea was specifically setup to allow the DoW to be played as a separate DoW only army. They are not separable for this reason. Even the mercenary ones you refer to making a name for themselves as RoR, ignores that the regular pikemen units are still Tileans from Tilea. Hired as mercenaries. The only difference is the named ones are good at their jobs.
  • CyresdogCyresdog Posts: 75Registered Users
    edited September 3
    An interesting Mechanic for DoW would be that you can only recruit Units in other Peoples regions.
    For example you are with your Lord in an Empire Region that can only recruit Spearmen and Swordman, thats what you can recruit, next turn you are in a Greenskin Region where you recruit some Orc Boyz and Gobbos, and so on. Would make more sense to me than building several Buildings that give you Unit Options.

    Requirement would be that you are not at War with said faction. If you want the best Units from every Faction you have to travel the entire World. Right now you hardly travel further than 5 Turns non-stop marching from your Start Location

    And we wouldn't have to wait for Game 3 to get them without missing any Units

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    @Draxynnic

    What's the point of stripping out the mercenaries who are dwarfs, Norscans, Ogres, and so on, only to replace them with "outlaws and pirates" who are dwarfs, Norscans, Ogres and so on? Especially since CA has explicitly made Sartosa a different list, for better or worse?

    If any such distinction is to be made, just make it one of "local mercenaries" versus "foreign mercenaries".


    That basically is the idea. The reason I make the distinction is because I don't want Dwarf Warriors, Norscan Reavers or ogres to be a part of the core SR forces, I would rather they, like the Dogs of War are foreign units to a degree. They could be DoW and could be Outlaws/pirates.

    I'm in favour of revising Sartosa's army and a southern realms DLC would be a good way to do it or at least set it up.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    @Nyxilis

    1: as I've said before the differences mean almost nothing since there is little to no potential for Estalia and the BP on their own.

    If they don't get reworked with Tilea then they will remain Empire clones, it's as simple as that. You could make the BP a little more unique by giving them some Empire units or something but really this doesn't mean anything.

    Estalia is more brigands? And Tilea has Sartosa too. That is why I'm proposing we flesh out the criminal element to offer some new units that the SR would need (and are known to use) alongside the DoW.

    2: I don't want to dilute other factions uniqueness and I don't think they should be available to every race...not in the same way as TT anyway.

    Rather, I would like it if the DoW rogue armies were for hire kind of like a powerful WAAAGH! You can buy and set upon your enemies. If we were playing as the Dogs of War it could be focused around getting contracts to defend X people and attack X race etc.

    If the DoW units themselves are going to be given to anyone else then it should only be to their parent faction, the one their race belongs to. (Many DoW units could be implemented into the main army of their parent faction and removed from the DoW entirely like Tichi-Huichi's Raiders.

    3: I've already been over this, not just in responses but in my OP...

    4: There are Tilean exclusive units. Because it's a mercenary culture down there every regiment is 'unique' and tries to stand out from the crowd with a fancy name. Yet there are certain units, weapons and aesthetics that are popular in or unique to Tilea and the SR.

    If Tilea is the only place in the SR that consists purely of Mercenaries then why can't the inclusion of Estalia and the BP cancel that out?

    Perhaps Tilea on its own is indistinguishable from the DoW but the same is not true the other way around. Dogs of war is just a catch all term for mercenaries who exist all over the world and sell their services to anyone willing to pay. Tilea is just a good consistent customer to the Mercenary trade.

    So from one perspective: Tilea requires mercenaries to survive (in the format I am proposing: they would still require mercenaries to survive) but from the other: Dogs of War aren't exclusive to, nor reliant on Tilea.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,427Registered Users

    This thread just reads as: I don't like the aesthetic of the race so let's change them.

    Well I don't like Norsca, but it is what it is.

    The aesthetic is pretty much the entire reason I want DoW. DoW that's not a flamboyant, somewhat campy group of cutthroats, outcasts, weirdos, and those from far flung races we'll never see in the game isn't DoW and isn't worth putting in.

    Just imagine that compared to some of game 3's races. DoW in a fashion off against the Chaos Dwarfs and their hats. Yes please.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    @Vanilla_Gorilla

    And I'm not against that at all.
  • gholingholin Member Posts: 1,097Registered Users

    Southern Realms have a highly boring standard army. Give me DoW representing them or don't give me them at all.

    I feel this way a little bit. I mean, yes, it'd be cool to have another faction of humans, but Southern Realms pales in diversity to the likes of Araby, If they are going to give us a new human faction, let's get one that has a completely different aesthetic than Europeans. One can have Empire clones in the Old World, because there the Empire rules supreme, but we have two distinct European factions already. Let's get our Araby now to spice things up for humankind.

    That said, I want Southern Realms anyway. I still think conquistadors, Italians and spaniards are awesome.

    Dogs of War would probably be best suites as their own horde faction honestly. I don't think they hold land.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Posts: 3,007Registered Users

    @Nyxilis

    1: as I've said before the differences mean almost nothing since there is little to no potential for Estalia and the BP on their own.

    If they don't get reworked with Tilea then they will remain Empire clones, it's as simple as that. You could make the BP a little more unique by giving them some Empire units or something but really this doesn't mean anything.

    Estalia is more brigands? And Tilea has Sartosa too. That is why I'm proposing we flesh out the criminal element to offer some new units that the SR would need (and are known to use) alongside the DoW.

    2: I don't want to dilute other factions uniqueness and I don't think they should be available to every race...not in the same way as TT anyway.

    Rather, I would like it if the DoW rogue armies were for hire kind of like a powerful WAAAGH! You can buy and set upon your enemies. If we were playing as the Dogs of War it could be focused around getting contracts to defend X people and attack X race etc.

    If the DoW units themselves are going to be given to anyone else then it should only be to their parent faction, the one their race belongs to. (Many DoW units could be implemented into the main army of their parent faction and removed from the DoW entirely like Tichi-Huichi's Raiders.

    3: I've already been over this, not just in responses but in my OP...

    4: There are Tilean exclusive units. Because it's a mercenary culture down there every regiment is 'unique' and tries to stand out from the crowd with a fancy name. Yet there are certain units, weapons and aesthetics that are popular in or unique to Tilea and the SR.

    If Tilea is the only place in the SR that consists purely of Mercenaries then why can't the inclusion of Estalia and the BP cancel that out?

    Perhaps Tilea on its own is indistinguishable from the DoW but the same is not true the other way around. Dogs of war is just a catch all term for mercenaries who exist all over the world and sell their services to anyone willing to pay. Tilea is just a good consistent customer to the Mercenary trade.

    So from one perspective: Tilea requires mercenaries to survive (in the format I am proposing: they would still require mercenaries to survive) but from the other: Dogs of War aren't exclusive to, nor reliant on Tilea.

    @Nyxilis

    1: as I've said before the differences mean almost nothing since there is little to no potential for Estalia and the BP on their own.

    If they don't get reworked with Tilea then they will remain Empire clones, it's as simple as that. You could make the BP a little more unique by giving them some Empire units or something but really this doesn't mean anything.

    Estalia is more brigands? And Tilea has Sartosa too. That is why I'm proposing we flesh out the criminal element to offer some new units that the SR would need (and are known to use) alongside the DoW.

    2: I don't want to dilute other factions uniqueness and I don't think they should be available to every race...not in the same way as TT anyway.

    Rather, I would like it if the DoW rogue armies were for hire kind of like a powerful WAAAGH! You can buy and set upon your enemies. If we were playing as the Dogs of War it could be focused around getting contracts to defend X people and attack X race etc.

    If the DoW units themselves are going to be given to anyone else then it should only be to their parent faction, the one their race belongs to. (Many DoW units could be implemented into the main army of their parent faction and removed from the DoW entirely like Tichi-Huichi's Raiders.

    3: I've already been over this, not just in responses but in my OP...

    4: There are Tilean exclusive units. Because it's a mercenary culture down there every regiment is 'unique' and tries to stand out from the crowd with a fancy name. Yet there are certain units, weapons and aesthetics that are popular in or unique to Tilea and the SR.

    If Tilea is the only place in the SR that consists purely of Mercenaries then why can't the inclusion of Estalia and the BP cancel that out?

    Perhaps Tilea on its own is indistinguishable from the DoW but the same is not true the other way around. Dogs of war is just a catch all term for mercenaries who exist all over the world and sell their services to anyone willing to pay. Tilea is just a good consistent customer to the Mercenary trade.

    So from one perspective: Tilea requires mercenaries to survive (in the format I am proposing: they would still require mercenaries to survive) but from the other: Dogs of War aren't exclusive to, nor reliant on Tilea.

    1. Sacrificing their lore on the pillar of "I just want them" certainly doesn't make them worthy of inclusion. What point is there of wanting the BP If they are in fact nothing like the BP? And even then Estalia and BP have always been such a foot note the odds of getting either in any Warhammer game have always been zero. And if you just make BP what you're saying, they're just a DoW clone instead of an Empire clone. Get that?

    2. There are tons of DoW units that have no parent faction at all. Like Amazon spellcasters, since the Amazons are likely never to come around that would just be giving magic types that other factions may not have access to. It still boils down to the samething. It wrecks balance and distinctness of armies. It's why GW killed a faction that did actually see a lot of play. DoW weren't exactly unpopular when they were killed off ya know. And only letting parent factions have their race based ones you might as well just dump the DoW part of it and just make them RoR for those factions from the start you have to do something to get. The whole point and theme of the DoW is mishmash mercenaries.

    And btw, using all DoW armies for other races would dilute their faction to the extreme.

    3. Just because you've been over it doesn't make it right.

    4. Cause... you clearly didn't read certain parts. The regular every day units of the DoW are mostly Tilean. Their lords, their duelists, and for instance their pikemen or galloper guns. Yes, their basic simple infantry are still considered Tilean. Not Empire. Not Bretonnian. The ones that are not trying to stand out, the ones that are just the grudges earning a coin by being a soldier who can stab things with a long stick and the training to use it. And all their LL are Tilean, and larger portion of their heros are still Tilean or even described as primarily working in Tilea.

    So it doesn't matter a flip darn that some are trying to stand out, the bulk core are still very much from Tilean cities. And even then most of the mercenaries in any of their descriptions, like the elf on the dragon, all state they came to Tilea. A lot of the descriptions go exactly like that. Because Tilea is the one that mostly hires the DoW.

    DoW are not distinguishable from Tilea, once more, majority of their baseline unamed units are still Tilean. If you hired a DoW army you likely got a big ol pack of Tileans out there. You probably sent people down to Tilea to recruit them as there aren't some big mercenary bands just sitting around in the middle of most of the factions. The Tilean culture of hiring mercenaries is what lets this weird mishmash thrive. They always have an employer there. it enables them.

    So they're not going to let armies composed entirely of DoW be at the ready or usable by a player. They're not going to allow the recruitment of units that destroy weaknesses or hyper focus strengths. They're not going to waste a long amount of time just for units to be used only by the same race they are, they'd just make them RoR. They're not going to waste endless resources making two races that are essentially the same. For one, it's a far greater expenditure of resources to simply make one race. And it's not a good sale to go, look we made the same faction again with a slightly different mechanic but ya know.. are otherwise the same.. based on concepts of people that don't understand that the Southern Realms don't exist in GW but only in CA diplomacy dump to deal with the weird left over human factions. And that Tilea and the DoW are intrinsically linked
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    @Nyxilis

    When did I say 'i just want them'?! In the time I've spent replying to everyone here in an attempt to properly explain what I'm suggesting. Why I am suggesting it, how it would be good for us, CA and the faction.

    How have you managed to somehow melt all of that down into something so asenine as "I just wanna throw my toys out of the pram because I just want it".

    Really?
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