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"The Master and The Moulder" Lord Pack

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  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Posts: 2,821Registered Users

    @Draculasaurus

    I agree, I don't see getting the thunderbarge and so called "rune golems" at the same time. All thunderbarge like aircraft have had more references in the Warhammer fantasy lore than the rune golems. For one the thunderbarge is in the 8th edition rule book, and has a corresponding RoR called the "Wrath of Thunder" and of course Malakai's own thunderbarge (mount) being the "Spirit of Grugni" (which played a huge role in the Gotrex and Felix series). Although the thunderbarge needs to be balanced, 5 organ guns like what the hell, and I just hope the flying artillery doesn't end up stupid op like the warplock jezzails did for a while.

    Same goes for Skaven I think we will get the stormvermin, brood horror and the giant rats. In particular the broodhorror could take animations from the dread saurian, the giants rats are in fact very similar in shape and size to warhounds and I am sort of suspicious about the sacred kroxigors because I could see stormvermin running and fighting exactly (just replace floating rocks with flame projectiles) like them.

    I believe the loreful name was "Rune Guardians" or some such. I could see them make it in alongside a more expensive centerpiece item like the Thunderbarge if (and only if) they were a remodel of an existing unit, making use of its existing animations. Treekin were a remodel of minotaurs (they have the exact same somersaulting animation on the charge) and Animated Hulks were a remodle of Chaos Sapwn (also have identical animations) so I could see Rune Guardians getting handled that way, potentially.

    I disagree about the Brood Horrors animations. The Saurian's build is all wrong and it's far bigger. Skaven are, to my mind, likely to go one of two ways. One, they have a centerpiece big monster like the Brood Horror and a couple of cheaper remodels like wolf rats or armored rat ogres or something. Two, they have Stormfiends as the centerpiece unit and a couple of cheaper remodels. Either way I doubt we get both Stormfiends and a big monster. Maybe that can happen if they only implement melee Stormfiends as glorified versions of the Bonebreaker mount.
  • Infinite_MawInfinite_Maw Posts: 1,439Registered Users



    I disagree about the Brood Horrors animations. The Saurian's build is all wrong and it's far bigger. Skaven are, to my mind, likely to go one of two ways. One, they have a centerpiece big monster like the Brood Horror and a couple of cheaper remodels like wolf rats or armored rat ogres or something. Two, they have Stormfiends as the centerpiece unit and a couple of cheaper remodels. Either way I doubt we get both Stormfiends and a big monster. Maybe that can happen if they only implement melee Stormfiends as glorified versions of the Bonebreaker mount.

    Oops, I meant to say stormfiends. What do you mean that the saurian's build is wrong? Wrong for the brood horror, or just not matching its model?
    Frankly I see brood horrors more likely since they are a multi-purpose unit, they act as mounts for both the master moulders and Throt, and CA love their multipurpose units.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Posts: 2,821Registered Users



    I disagree about the Brood Horrors animations. The Saurian's build is all wrong and it's far bigger. Skaven are, to my mind, likely to go one of two ways. One, they have a centerpiece big monster like the Brood Horror and a couple of cheaper remodels like wolf rats or armored rat ogres or something. Two, they have Stormfiends as the centerpiece unit and a couple of cheaper remodels. Either way I doubt we get both Stormfiends and a big monster. Maybe that can happen if they only implement melee Stormfiends as glorified versions of the Bonebreaker mount.

    Oops, I meant to say stormfiends. What do you mean that the saurian's build is wrong? Wrong for the brood horror, or just not matching its model?
    Frankly I see brood horrors more likely since they are a multi-purpose unit, they act as mounts for both the master moulders and Throt, and CA love their multipurpose units.
    I meant its build was wrong for the Brood Horror. If any unit could be remodeled for the Brood Horror it would probably be the Salamander, but even that isn't quite right; it's too long in the torso.

    Anyway, if we do get Brood Horrors I would expect them to be a specialist anti-infantry monster, to serve in contrast to the anti-large Hell-Pit Abomination. I'm thinking something like the Tomb Scorpion, with a lot of disruptive thrashing-about animations. Brood Horrors had a special ability on the table top that when they died they exploded in a shower of toxic stomach acids. That's most useful if they're in the mosh pit.
  • Infinite_MawInfinite_Maw Posts: 1,439Registered Users
    Just keep in mind that CA outright redesigned the tree-kin, which looks way better then its outdated tabletop model (although frankly I have this feeling that AoS slyaneth revenants were supposed to be the redesigned tree-kin but whatever), in order for the chaos spawn model to be applied to it. They may do the same with the broodhorror, after all they need to be extra long to fit more rat titties for them hungry hungry litters :D :D :D .
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Posts: 2,821Registered Users

    Just keep in mind that CA outright redesigned the tree-kin, which looks way better then its outdated tabletop model (although frankly I have this feeling that AoS slyaneth revenants were supposed to be the redesigned tree-kin but whatever), in order for the chaos spawn model to be applied to it. They may do the same with the broodhorror, after all they need to be extra long to fit more rat titties for them hungry hungry litters :D :D :D .

    We'll see. Either way, I still suspect CA will dedicate most of its resources in a Skaven update to one of two things: a big monster or the Stormfiends. There are reasonable arguments to be made for both. Big monsters can serve as mounts for Throt and whatever generic lord or hero comes with him. Stormfiends can serve as the template for an FLC Thanquol's Boneripper mount/summon.
  • TimpeyoTimpeyo Posts: 1,020Registered Users
    edited September 9
    Like the idea but I think if your going for a more engineer type LP you might want a few more non-slayer dwarfs with better tech, maybe a vehicle like this



    also I'd prefer Snikch as a LH has a bit more to offer and is a character all Skaven would hire


  • LabriaLabria Posts: 507Registered Users
    edited September 9
    We should look at others Lord packs:
    https://store.steampowered.com/app/965220/Total_War_WARHAMMER_II__The_Prophet__The_Warlock/
    https://store.steampowered.com/app/1074320/Total_War_WARHAMMER_II__The_Hunter__The_Beast/

    Both races need this:
    Legendary lord with special mechanics, He will start campaign at least with one new unit.
    One type of genersic lord/hero
    Max 2-3 new types of units with new animations. Others new units will be just remodels of old units or new varriants.

    I think most expensive units for new Lord pack will be Thunderbarge and Stormfiends. We can easy have 2-3 variants for both units. These units are perfect for WoW effect in trailer. Easy money for CA.

    New generic lord will be Master Moulder and Daemons Slayer. (If CA will choice to add generic heroes we will get Dragon Slayer and Packmaster with Wolf Rat mount)

    We need at least two more units for Lord pack:

    Dwarfs:
    Doomseekers and Slayer Pirates. Both are easy pick and thematic units.

    Skaven:
    New varriant of Rat Ogres and Wolf Rats. Easy pick.

    Poison Wind Mortar and Irondrakes with pistols are not fit for Lord pack theme but can be easy make. They can be FLC units in future.

    I would like to see Goblin-hewer and Brood Horrors but they are not necessarily.

    I don't expect anything else.

  • Xenos7Xenos7 Posts: 4,946Registered Users
    Nice, but looks a bit too costly. Apart from the big units, the doomseeker weapons look expensive to make. We got only one flail-type weapon in the game, Skrolk's one.
  • PaulHPaulH Posts: 1,309Registered Users
    I keep thinking that they might give us something we aren't expecting (like Empire vs Lizardmen) and give us Skaven vs Vampire Counts. Clan Moulder vs the Necrarch Vampires, both of which are factions that specialise in creating monstrosities by mixing and merging different creatures. I could see the theme being their competition over monstrous resources.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Posts: 2,821Registered Users
    PaulH said:

    I keep thinking that they might give us something we aren't expecting (like Empire vs Lizardmen) and give us Skaven vs Vampire Counts. Clan Moulder vs the Necrarch Vampires, both of which are factions that specialise in creating monstrosities by mixing and merging different creatures. I could see the theme being their competition over monstrous resources.

    If we ever get another Vampire Counts character my bet is on a more melee focused character like Abhorash than another caster lord. CA seems to like spreading that sort of thing around and so far their only real melee lord is Vlad.
  • LabriaLabria Posts: 507Registered Users
    edited September 9
    PaulH said:

    I keep thinking that they might give us something we aren't expecting (like Empire vs Lizardmen) and give us Skaven vs Vampire Counts. Clan Moulder vs the Necrarch Vampires, both of which are factions that specialise in creating monstrosities by mixing and merging different creatures. I could see the theme being their competition over monstrous resources.

    Not necessarily, many people expected Alarielle vs Hellebron and Ikit Claw vs Tehenhauin. Sure, new Lord pack was suprised but Gor-Rok and Nakai were the most requested Lizardmen Lords for previous Lizardmen FLC.

    Vampire Count have own pirate version in Vortex and five new generic lords. They need just full playable Red Duke for game 2, nothing more.

    I think best suprise will be Bretonnia vs Dark Elves. Beastslayer vs Beastmaster. :D
  • EarthDragonEarthDragon Posts: 137Registered Users
    I’m assuming the people saying “it’s more likely” for other Skaven match-ups and Dwarf match-ups aren’t as familiar with the Lore.

    There is no other more vicious rivalry of any pairing left then Dwarves and Skaven.

    Hell. Let’s say the Empire and Lizardmen were still on the table and same game (including game 1 to game 1) pairings not already were also all being considered. Dwarves vs Skaven is still pushing that top spot. This is a nasty pairing!
  • WarfieldWarfield Posts: 161Registered Users
    edited September 19
    Why are folks always recommending Grimm Burloksson??

    Burlok Damminsson should be the Legendary Lord this Dwarf DLC.

    1. He is the Engineering Guildmaster.
    2. He is Grimm Burloksson's father.
    3. Grimm is only a Master Engineer, and thus a hero unit (not a lord!).


    I think we should get both father and son as Lord and Hero choices for this DLC.

    Warfield Undermountain
    Dwarf Lord of Mount Glander
    Stone and Steel Regiment

  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Posts: 2,821Registered Users
    edited September 19
    Warfield said:

    Why are folks always recommending Grimm Burloksson??

    Burlok Damminsson should be the Legendary Lord this Dwarf DLC.

    1. He is the Engineering Guildmaster.
    2. He is Grimm Burloksson's father.
    3. Grimm is only a Master Engineer, and thus a hero unit (not a lord!).


    I think we should get both father and son as Lord and Hero choices for this DLC.

    Because One: it's highly unlikely we'd get both and two: Grimm is the 8th edition engineer character, Burlok is not.

    Also we've already had a number of heroes get promoted to lords, and even lords get demoted to heroes. CA does not seem to care about this distinction.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    Warfield said:

    Why are folks always recommending Grimm Burloksson??

    Burlok Damminsson should be the Legendary Lord this Dwarf DLC.

    1. He is the Engineering Guildmaster.
    2. He is Grimm Burloksson's father.
    3. Grimm is only a Master Engineer, and thus a hero unit (not a lord!).


    I think we should get both father and son as Lord and Hero choices for this DLC.

    Because his dad isn't half as interesting: he used to be, but now he's a total conservative that doesn't set a foot wrong and only focuses on making slight adjustments to existing creations like a good little stunty.

    Meanwhile: his son is an adventurous creative type who makes all kinds of new inventions like his cog axe, his gauntlet, his telescopic monocle and his double barreled shotgun.

    Not only is he more interesting: his character would be more conducive to implementing new units and to getting a new unique start position.

    Thunderbarges, goblin Hewers and all that are new inventions! They're sacrilege to most engineers. Burlok could not be justified to go anywhere new like his son could be.

    He's just boring.
  • WarfieldWarfield Posts: 161Registered Users
    edited September 20

    Because his dad isn't half as interesting: he used to be, but now he's a total conservative that doesn't set a foot wrong and only focuses on making slight adjustments to existing creations like a good little stunty.

    Meanwhile: his son is an adventurous creative type who makes all kinds of new inventions like his cog axe, his gauntlet, his telescopic monocle and his double barreled shotgun.

    Not only is he more interesting: his character would be more conducive to implementing new units and to getting a new unique start position.

    Thunderbarges, goblin Hewers and all that are new inventions! They're sacrilege to most engineers. Burlok could not be justified to go anywhere new like his son could be.

    He's just boring.


    You make a good point about the general "interesting-ness" of Grimm. However... I'd like to see folks promoting both Burlok and Grimm.

    Firstly, Burlok is a longbeard and Grimm is a beardling. I think it is more "interesting" to be perfecting old inventions while scowling at bearlings with their new-fangled whiz-bangs. I think it would be the perfect comedian/straight man combination if they added both. Both would be based out of Zhufbar, and if they are a Lord and Hero combo, they could both be in the same army. I think it would be great.

    Second, Grimm is an over-styled model with silly random cogs all over the place, Burlok is a simpler model with just a thing-a-ma-jigger for an arm, you can actually appreciate the engineering on the model instead of being blinded by cogs. So my preference visually is for Burlok.

    Third, Goblin Hewers will go with a Malakai Makaisson DLC, not a Burlok / Grimm DLC.

    Because One: it's highly unlikely we'd get both and two: Grimm is the 8th edition engineer character, Burlok is not.

    Also we've already had a number of heroes get promoted to lords, and even lords get demoted to heroes. CA does not seem to care about this distinction.

    I guess if 8th edition dictated who we get, then you might be right...

    However, based on that logic though, folks shouldn't hold their breath on Malakai Makaisson, Alrik Ranulfsson, Kazador Thunderhorn, Snorri Nosebiter, Kragg the Grimm.

    I'm thinking that Malakai Makaisson as part of another slayer DLC is a foregone conclusion, and that shieldbearer mounts will be added likely alongside Alrik, and that another Dwarf vs Greenskin DLC (Kazador vs Gorfang) is still possible.


    Warfield Undermountain
    Dwarf Lord of Mount Glander
    Stone and Steel Regiment

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    @Warfield

    I wouldn't promote both because my preference is to have Grimm as the lord and Malakai as the hero.

    Makakai doesn't make sense as a lord choice and would offer more as a hero for both Grimm and Karak Kadrin.

    We already have one slayer lord and Karak Kadrin already exists as a faction. We are in need of a Legendary engineer and a legendary runelord so why would we double up on the slayer lords rather than getting a pure engineer lord?

    The only reason people are considering Malakai is because of the missing slayer units but even with this in mind, I don't think he'll come because all the lord's so far have had a generic counterpart and I doubt we'll get a generic slayer engineer lord will we.

    Grimms cogs arent random, that's his axe. The chemistry of the two wouldn't translate into the game so the point about the comedy of their pairing is kind of moot (it's also not what the dynamic between the two is actually like).

    You are still suggesting that Burlok be the lord and you still haven't acknowledged how that doesn't work with the units at all. Burlok wouldn't be caught dead using Thunderbarges or slayer units or goblin Hewers, yet you are suggesting that he be the lord to carry these units into WH2...
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    edited September 20
    Also, you mentioned Malakai like he should get a DLC and Burlok should also get a DLC...no, this is an 'either/or' situation here.

    There aren't enough units left for the Dwarfs to justify that and even if there were, there are a great number of far more worthy inclusions as a lord than both Malakai and Burlok (Malakai is my favourite dwarf character btw, I just think he'd be better as a hero)

    What about Kragg the Grim, Alrik Ranulfsson, Josef Bugman, Kazador, Ulther Stonehammer and even Sven the Magnificent.

    You were suggesting we have two engineer lords (who would likely start in and around the same place) but these other characters have their own niche as a lord type (master brewer with bugman, Runelord with Kragg and Thorek) or they could offer a unique campaign/start position (Sven could be in Lustria, Ulther has lost his home and can recruit Kislev and Empire units).
  • WarfieldWarfield Posts: 161Registered Users
    edited September 21

    Also, you mentioned Malakai like he should get a DLC and Burlok should also get a DLC...no, this is an 'either/or' situation here.

    Where I disagree with you is that there isn't enough content to justify two DLCs and that the Dwarfs will only see one more DLC ever. I understand your points, but I think there is plenty of content for a slayer-themed DLC and an engineer-themed one (even if Burlok and Grimm aren't released together).

    Slayer-themed DLC:
    1 x Legendary Lord -> Malakai
    1 x Legendary Hero -> Snorri (FLC)
    1 x Lord -> Daemonslayer
    1 x Hero -> Dragonslayer
    4 x Units
    -> Goblin Hewer
    -> Doomseekers
    -> Thunderbarge (Spirit of Grungni being the RoR version)
    -> Machine Gun Carriage (official image from licensed card game)
    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Malakai_Makaisson




    Engineer-themed DLC:
    1 x Legendary Lord -> Burlok
    1 x Legendary Hero -> Grimm (FLC)
    Changes to Master Engineers:
    Gyrocopter mount option
    Construct-able (summoned) Turrets (previously approved by GW - see Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning)


    5 x Units (possibilities)
    -> Prospectors (miners w/ steamdrills 8th Ed.)
    -> Ironbeard (Ironbreakers w/ drakefire pistols 8th Ed.)
    -> Deathrollers (maybe/maybe not since this is a Bloodbowl thing)
    -> Dwarf Juggernaut (seems to work like the Empire Steamtank)
    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dwarf_Juggernaut

    -> Earth Borer Mining Drill (from the official Stone and Steel Warhammer RPG lorebook)
    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Earth_Borer_Mining_Drill

    -> Steam Golems (hammering siege engine on wheels, official image)


    Warfield Undermountain
    Dwarf Lord of Mount Glander
    Stone and Steel Regiment

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    @Warfield

    And where will that Leave the Runelords like Thorek? or the Master Brewers like Josef Bugman?

    yes there are enough units for 2 more DLC's but are there enough for 3 or even 4? not really.

    What would the Runelords be left with? Rune Golems/Guardians and Anvil Guard I suppose, but then what about Josef? he'd have nothing.

    I'm all for fleshing out Karak Kadrin but then where would you Put Malakai? what would he do and where would he go as a lord? are we going to plant him in Karak Kadrin as well? that seems like a waste of a lord slot because what we want is new lord types and new start positions with new factions and new mechanics.

    Deathrollers are Blood Bowl so no. I've seen them suggested a few times but I've also seen no one take it seriously as a suggestion.

    The Dwarven Juggernaight's only mention is from one sentence in 1984? it was introduced in 2nd edition with no rules and we dont even really know what it looks like. The lore page you link to even says its canonically questionable, which is something ive never seen the wiki say before.

    I've seen a different version of the Steam Golems before where they are walking mechs, they might be a good shout for a DLC.

    Prospectors are a solid choice, so are Drakefire Pistols (although they aren't really needed),

    The Mining Drill is also really obscure, 1st edition and it says its not really used for combat but that would be cool.

    Again though, you are missing the point that: sure, there is enough stuff for two more lords but should these two both be engineers?

    Ulther Stonehammer is the Prince of Karak Ungor whose Karak has been lost for centuries. He commands a nomadic army made up of his kin, mercenaries and volunteers from the Empire, Kislev, the Dwarfs and elsewhere.

    He should have the Drakefire Pistols if anyones going to get them and he could be a hybrid Dwarf lord or even a Dogs of War Legendary Lord: able to Recruit Empire, Kislev and Merc Units to fight to retake his ancestral home (this would be the perfect excuse to move Azag or Grimgor to Red Eye mountain and pit them against Ulther in a head to head)

    Kragg the Grim could be a Hero or an unlockable lord for Karaz-a-Karak.

    Thorek Ironbrow is the runelord of Karak Azul who's another total conservative, but the interesting thing about him is that he doesn't just want to stagnate, he wants to rediscover his people's culture and inventions of old that were lost when so many Karaks fell or were cut off.

    He could be placed in one of the foreign holds since his life's mission is to search the ruins of old hold or help his kin (like Belegar and Ulther) retake their home so he can learn about the old ways, reconnect with lost kin etc.

    Kazador Dragonslayer is a unique hybrid Dwarf lord who has a crossbow and a great hammer. He's the king of Karak Azul and could be put there surrounded by enemies with a head to head against Gorfang Rotgut, with the task of freeing his kin and retaking black Crag for the Dawi.

    Josef Bugman could be a unique type of lord/hero: the Master Brewer, focused on support and healing and such, with their Ale Cart as a mount.

    All of these characters have a great basis for being implemented and even a head to head matchup already made for them.

    What could Malakai or Burlok offer as lords that these characters couldn't?
  • WarfieldWarfield Posts: 161Registered Users

    @Warfield What would the Runelords be left with? Rune Golems/Guardians and Anvil Guard I suppose, but then what about Josef? he'd have nothing.

    Runelords would hopefully come with a rune forging mechanic that uses gromril as a resource (like the item forge with its "oathgold"). Also, the Anvil of Doom is in desperate need of a rework as it does not resemble anything close to the table top version. Lastly, the Runelords/Runesmiths need more selectable runes and items in custom battles/MP, their options are very limited, especially when compared to other races generic Lord and Hero options.

    Runelords might not have as many units options, but you could have Thorek's assistant, Kraggi as a Hero, and Kragg the Grim as an FLC Lord in Karak-a-Karak, that is a lot of content for one DLC. Two lords, one a hero, and two units.I'd be fine with that, if we were getting a slayer-themed DLC and engineer-themed DLC down the road. If CA came out and said, "Sorry one more DLC per race is all we are doing." Then that would change my mind, and I'd be more about including engineering and slayer stuff now.

    I'm all for fleshing out Karak Kadrin but then where would you Put Malakai? what would he do and where would he go as a lord? are we going to plant him in Karak Kadrin as well? that seems like a waste of a lord slot because what we want is new lord types and new start positions with new factions and new mechanics.

    Probably somewhere in the Grey Mountains near Nuln since he was employed there at some point.

    Again though, you are missing the point that: sure, there is enough stuff for two more lords but should these two both be engineers?

    I suppose I view Malakai as more of a slayer than an engineer, mostly because I don't know what other slayer lord would help us get daemon slayers, dragon slayers, doomseekers, and the goblin hewer.

    What could Malakai or Burlok offer as lords that these characters couldn't?

    I'm not sure I understand the question, but both Malakai and Burlok/Grimm could get us slayer-themed units and engineering themed units, respectively. Also, both would get an engineering lord with ranged attacks, which we do not have.


    Warfield Undermountain
    Dwarf Lord of Mount Glander
    Stone and Steel Regiment

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    edited September 23
    @Warfield

    I really like your ideas and honestly I think Malakai or Snori or Ungrims son are kind of a no brainer for a DLC at some point.

    I know that here I make the case that CA could give a justification to add Grimm along with the slayer units but CA very much likes their themes in their lord packs and having a pure slayer lord pack ties the theme together more neatly.

    That being said though, I still would prefer Malakai be a Hero because I want to see Karak Kadrin fleshed out as much as it can be. I would rather have one really interesting and fleshed out Slayer keep with Ungrim and 2-3 other Lords/Heroes with him.

    I'm really not a fan of the idea of spreading the Slayer focused theme across multiple lords/heroes, especially since it doesn't really make sense and adding Malakai as a lord in Karak Norn doesn't really make sense.

    "Probably somewhere in the Grey Mountains near Nuln since he was employed there at some point."

    Karak Norn is an issue since its also where Josef would start (unless he's going to be a nomad) and its such a weird and dodgy position (Trapped between Belegar, Wissenland, Athel Loren and Skarsnik) I already think Skarsnik is in desperate need of being moved but if we add Malakai in Norn then he needs to move 100%.

    That being said: one of Karak Norn's main industries is creating Airships and the Hold is full of refugees from other fallen Holds (somewhere that Slayers could fit). The colour scheme is also extremely close to Karak Kadrin.

    I like the Idea of adding more characters than Units with Thorek but then what do we do about Kazador?

    When I said "What could Malakai or Burlok offer as lords that these characters couldn't?" I meant: why should they take up a lord slot before/instead of other candidates who might offer more?
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