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Ai doomstacks everywhere

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  • theedge634theedge634 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,984
    Itharus said:

    I agree on the monster spam but the ai needs to keep up with the player so without changes to the system itself it is what it is.

    Player can choose not to spam monsters too, you know. I don't spam them unless I have to because the AI is forcing my hand. I honestly prefer to actually use all my units instead of just elites, too. I wish they'd add optional caps to make things more sane, like they're doing in MP.

    Maybe this is some weird trick trying to force more people to MP in order to get a battle that isn't ridiculous.
    There's also this iwerd gridlock effect now where everyone admits there's a doomstacks problem, but are completely unrealistic about fixing it.

    Unit or army capping is just the most pragmatic approach to solving doomstacks.

    Sure, if the AI was better, if the economy was more balanced, if the moon was made of cheese then everything might work itself out.

    But CAs AI has been awful since the games inception, that's not going to all of the sudden change. Total War has been a map painting exercise for the past decade the games economy isn't going to magically get fixed up.

    The game as current, is broken. It's pretty much universally agreed that the game is an absolute slog and horrible to play past about turn 70. Doomstacks are a major component to that. Whether they're a symptom or a cause doesn't matter. The true root cause is unfixable, or at least it won't be fixed. If you can't treat the cause, you can at least make the player comfortable and treat the symptoms.
  • warhammerwarlordwarhammerwarlord Registered Users Posts: 173
    beegee84 said:

    Since the recent update has anbody else noticed the ai seems to have doomstacks everywhere and is consolidating fast sometimes conquering whole continents before turn 60. Even on normal Ai seems uber hard now conquering quicker than even the best human players ever could

    Im rarely seeing minor factions past the first 50 turns which is a shame

    Choose easy game difficulty then.

    Most of players enjoy challenge, though.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,166

    beegee84 said:

    Since the recent update has anbody else noticed the ai seems to have doomstacks everywhere and is consolidating fast sometimes conquering whole continents before turn 60. Even on normal Ai seems uber hard now conquering quicker than even the best human players ever could

    Im rarely seeing minor factions past the first 50 turns which is a shame

    Choose easy game difficulty then.

    Most of players enjoy challenge, though.
    Difficulty should not involve making stacks of half kaiju.

    Besides, if you go below normal there are ridiculous bonuses applied to you and even the monsters become meaningless. It just switches things from stupid to boring and stupid.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 1,254
    edited September 2019
    Is there a generally agreed upon definition of a doomstack? Is it just all tier 4-5 units? I have my thoughts (25k+ base value army) but I'm not sure if that is in line with what other people think.

    In my game, it seems a little all over the place. There are some races which seem to easily hit ~20k armies, while other races armies are closer to 10k. Bretonnia is a mess. They have a ton armies, but they're all really weak and all over the place. High Elves seem to hit 20k in strides. I can't see Lustria, but I assume Lizardmen are pretty stacked as well.

    The most expensive stacks I can see are is the Final Chaos stacks attacking me right now which are about 22.5k stacks.

    I have a mod that limits the player to 18k and AI to 23k stacks so I'm not sure if that is messing things up. Are you guys seeing the AI go beyond that?
    Post edited by Jman5 on
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,166
    Doomstacks to me are armies that are all top line units, and typically 1/3+ big ass monsters.
  • CrajohCrajoh Member Registered Users Posts: 2,072
    Jman5 said:

    Is there a generally agreed upon definition of a doomstack? Is it just all tier 4-5 units? I have my thoughts (25k+ base value army) but I'm not sure if that is in line with what other people think.

    In my game, it seems a little all over the place. There are some races which seem to easily hit ~20k armies, while other races armies are closer to 10k. Bretonnia is a mess. They have a ton armies, but they're all really weak and all over the place. High Elves seem to hit 20k in strides. I can't see Lustria, but I assume Lizardmen are pretty stacked as well.

    The most expensive stacks I can see are is the Final Chaos stacks attacking me right now which are about 22.5k stacks.

    I have a mod that limits the player to 18k and AI to 23k stacks so I'm not sure if that is messing things up. Are you guys seeing the AI go beyond that?

    ohh nice question
    Live your life and try to do no harm.

    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  • SagrandaSagranda Registered Users Posts: 1,659
    Itharus said:

    Sagranda said:

    t.

    Itharus said:

    What's happening for me is that armies are getting comprised of half (or more) of huge arse monsters.

    Dinos for lizards.

    Dragons for Elves.

    Arachnarok for Greenkskins.

    Mammoths and what not for Norsca.

    And so on.

    It's incredibly annoying because the ONLY way to kill large monsters in this game (unless you're wood or dark elves) is to bring a like number of your own large monsters.

    Why is this bad? Because the game is forcing me to make the same armies over and over again and stonewalling me into a single kind of army - monster heavy.

    It's dumb. There needs to be optional unit caps for any given stack - BADLY. I don't want to see more than two of these damned things in any stack. It's so gd immersion breaking.

    Also, the Lizardman dino-force armies are unstoppable when AI is fighting other AI. As a result the lizardman AI factions are just steamrolling all the other AI.

    AI recruitment behavior can be changed without caps via scripts and changing variables. No need for caps (at least not in the way they usually get portrayed).
    That's fine and good for modders. Since I'm not one, I'd prefer it if CA would do this 20 year veteran customer a solid and put in OPTIONAL caps that can be TOGGLED during game set up (or even mid-game). People who don't want caps have absolute zero reason to complain about optional caps. I don't understand why they persist in doing so.
    The point is that CA doesn't need to add caps (even if optional) to improve the AIs recruitment behavior.
    An optional cap would only benefit those who are fine with that method, while the rest either has to deal with it or has to use mods. Improving it overall would benefit way more people.
    Disclaimer: What I say is my opinion and not necessarily stated as fact.
  • DebaucheeDebauchee Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,407
    Sagranda said:



    The point is that CA doesn't need to add caps (even if optional) to improve the AIs recruitment behavior.
    An optional cap would only benefit those who are fine with that method, while the rest either has to deal with it or has to use mods. Improving it overall would benefit way more people.

    CA can't improve the AI recruitment behaviour, because doomstacking is the optimal way of recruitment in current version of the game:
    - You get penalised for each additional army, so you have to fill stacks with the best units available;
    - High tier recruitment bulildings are expensive, take time and construction slots. It makes sence to get the most out of them by by spamming high tiers non-stop.
  • TheRealIronJazZTheRealIronJazZ Registered Users Posts: 216
    The game needs some kinda unit restriction system, no question. Maybe army caps are not the best solution but at least it would be something until CA comes out with a real plan to fix the problem hopefully.

    "Embrace your hunger, your lust, your desire. The universe is ours for the taking."


  • SagrandaSagranda Registered Users Posts: 1,659
    Debauchee said:

    Sagranda said:



    The point is that CA doesn't need to add caps (even if optional) to improve the AIs recruitment behavior.
    An optional cap would only benefit those who are fine with that method, while the rest either has to deal with it or has to use mods. Improving it overall would benefit way more people.

    CA can't improve the AI recruitment behaviour, because doomstacking is the optimal way of recruitment in current version of the game:
    - You get penalised for each additional army, so you have to fill stacks with the best units available;
    - High tier recruitment bulildings are expensive, take time and construction slots. It makes sence to get the most out of them by by spamming high tiers non-stop.
    Doomstacking can be achieved without 50 to 75% of the army being single entity monsters (tbf though, it's harder for sone races).
    In this regard it can be improved
    Additionaly '"improved" in a game doesn't always necessarily mean "make it more effective", but "make it more fun".
    Disclaimer: What I say is my opinion and not necessarily stated as fact.
  • beegee84beegee84 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 293
    Its definitely less fun than prevoius patch with me fighting 3 full stacks in almost every province forever. Even if I win the very next turn another 3 stacks turn up. There's litterally no progression it shouldn't be this bad on normal

    The current patch is the hardest any total war game has ever been I've been playing since rome 1

    Its like being stuck fighting mogol re-spawning hordes of doomstacks only instead of just 1 faction being a "last boss" horde every single ai faction is like gaint hordes of stack after stack after stack that the human player could never keep up with
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,952
    This all leads back to supply lines needing a fix. The economy model needs to promote balanced armies.
  • beegee84beegee84 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 293
    From what I can see its only the forces of order behaving this way
  • LayzanLayzan Registered Users Posts: 1,018
    Why after this update are there so many more doom stacks? It seems like the A.I has gone on overcharge, it's way more aggressive and has way more forces?
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 30,631
    That's because it spends a larger part of its income on the military now.

  • LayzanLayzan Registered Users Posts: 1,018

    That's because it spends a larger part of its income on the military now.

    I see, it shows.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 11,166
    Sagranda said:

    Itharus said:

    Sagranda said:

    t.

    Itharus said:

    What's happening for me is that armies are getting comprised of half (or more) of huge arse monsters.

    Dinos for lizards.

    Dragons for Elves.

    Arachnarok for Greenkskins.

    Mammoths and what not for Norsca.

    And so on.

    It's incredibly annoying because the ONLY way to kill large monsters in this game (unless you're wood or dark elves) is to bring a like number of your own large monsters.

    Why is this bad? Because the game is forcing me to make the same armies over and over again and stonewalling me into a single kind of army - monster heavy.

    It's dumb. There needs to be optional unit caps for any given stack - BADLY. I don't want to see more than two of these damned things in any stack. It's so gd immersion breaking.

    Also, the Lizardman dino-force armies are unstoppable when AI is fighting other AI. As a result the lizardman AI factions are just steamrolling all the other AI.

    AI recruitment behavior can be changed without caps via scripts and changing variables. No need for caps (at least not in the way they usually get portrayed).
    That's fine and good for modders. Since I'm not one, I'd prefer it if CA would do this 20 year veteran customer a solid and put in OPTIONAL caps that can be TOGGLED during game set up (or even mid-game). People who don't want caps have absolute zero reason to complain about optional caps. I don't understand why they persist in doing so.
    The point is that CA doesn't need to add caps (even if optional) to improve the AIs recruitment behavior.
    An optional cap would only benefit those who are fine with that method, while the rest either has to deal with it or has to use mods. Improving it overall would benefit way more people.
    The problem is if they change the recruitment behavior - then it's effectively a cap for everyone. Yes, they could do it that way. But some weirdos LOVE the kaiju stomp armies to fight. Adding optional caps that everyone has to abide by would allow us to have our cake and eat it, too.
  • warhammerwarlordwarhammerwarlord Registered Users Posts: 173
    beegee84 said:

    Even on normal Ai seems uber hard now conquering quicker than even the best human players ever could

    Good.
  • LayzanLayzan Registered Users Posts: 1,018
    edited September 2019
    beegee84 said:

    Its definitely less fun than prevoius patch with me fighting 3 full stacks in almost every province forever. Even if I win the very next turn another 3 stacks turn up. There's litterally no progression it shouldn't be this bad on normal

    The current patch is the hardest any total war game has ever been I've been playing since rome 1

    Its like being stuck fighting mogol re-spawning hordes of doomstacks only instead of just 1 faction being a "last boss" horde every single ai faction is like gaint hordes of stack after stack after stack that the human player could never keep up with

    Yea, Beat one stack, A.I throws you another!
    Post edited by Layzan on
  • BrynjarKBrynjarK Registered Users Posts: 766
    Its a tough one. Theyre flirting with the cap function on the dinos in the latest DLC though.

  • MonochromaticSpiderMonochromaticSpider Registered Users Posts: 1,063
    asd
    Itharus said:

    Sagranda said:

    Itharus said:

    Sagranda said:

    t.

    Itharus said:

    What's happening for me is that armies are getting comprised of half (or more) of huge arse monsters.

    Dinos for lizards.

    Dragons for Elves.

    Arachnarok for Greenkskins.

    Mammoths and what not for Norsca.

    And so on.

    It's incredibly annoying because the ONLY way to kill large monsters in this game (unless you're wood or dark elves) is to bring a like number of your own large monsters.

    Why is this bad? Because the game is forcing me to make the same armies over and over again and stonewalling me into a single kind of army - monster heavy.

    It's dumb. There needs to be optional unit caps for any given stack - BADLY. I don't want to see more than two of these damned things in any stack. It's so gd immersion breaking.

    Also, the Lizardman dino-force armies are unstoppable when AI is fighting other AI. As a result the lizardman AI factions are just steamrolling all the other AI.

    AI recruitment behavior can be changed without caps via scripts and changing variables. No need for caps (at least not in the way they usually get portrayed).
    That's fine and good for modders. Since I'm not one, I'd prefer it if CA would do this 20 year veteran customer a solid and put in OPTIONAL caps that can be TOGGLED during game set up (or even mid-game). People who don't want caps have absolute zero reason to complain about optional caps. I don't understand why they persist in doing so.
    The point is that CA doesn't need to add caps (even if optional) to improve the AIs recruitment behavior.
    An optional cap would only benefit those who are fine with that method, while the rest either has to deal with it or has to use mods. Improving it overall would benefit way more people.
    The problem is if they change the recruitment behavior - then it's effectively a cap for everyone. Yes, they could do it that way. But some weirdos LOVE the kaiju stomp armies to fight. Adding optional caps that everyone has to abide by would allow us to have our cake and eat it, too.
    Nice of you to call everybody who disagree with your misguided idea "weirdos".

    Unfortunately caps still don't actually fix the underlying issue. You're not having your cake and eating it unless, your idea of "cake" is something that comes out of your rear. And true, if that is smeared everywhere then AI recruitment issue doesn't seem so bad, does it? Because there's freaking "cake" everywhere, isn't there?

    CA has to support their game. If they add a new feature, then they have to support it. If they add multiple difficulties then it is on them to ensure that those difficulties are actually playable. And if they start adding various toggles like this, it becomes their job to ensure that these caps are meaningful not just now but also with all future content and balance passes.

    And here we reach the next problem, because balance is not something you've even begun defining yet. So how do you know that a cap is "balanced" in the first place? How do caps work with hordes? How do caps work with elite-intensive factions?

    Nobody who advocates that cap-based approach has actually bothered explaining how it actually works out as balanced or even what "balanced" actually means to them. It never gets that far. It always ends up as really being nothing more than "I pulled something out of my rear, I like it, it feels good, have some cake everyone!", which is hardly a sensible approach to anything. You don't even make actual cake that way, just randomly putting stuff together without any plan or meaning to it.

  • Skarsnik_De_EmperorSkarsnik_De_Emperor Registered Users Posts: 1,787
    I myself prefer the following:

    1, to have cap on one single type monster in some powerful factions to start with. To test the water, I will go forward with HE dragons first (as the controversial port changes is due to HE too powerful anyway). To balance, I will add a type of follower to increase the cap limit and add a trait to lord to do the same;

    2, to introduce a mechanic to transform experienced units (a new level 10?) into the backup pool for corresponding renowned units. This improves the availability of the renowned units (decreased count down) / improves its replenishment after battle, such things.
  • DebaucheeDebauchee Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,407
    Sagranda said:

    Debauchee said:

    Sagranda said:



    The point is that CA doesn't need to add caps (even if optional) to improve the AIs recruitment behavior.
    An optional cap would only benefit those who are fine with that method, while the rest either has to deal with it or has to use mods. Improving it overall would benefit way more people.

    CA can't improve the AI recruitment behaviour, because doomstacking is the optimal way of recruitment in current version of the game:
    - You get penalised for each additional army, so you have to fill stacks with the best units available;
    - High tier recruitment bulildings are expensive, take time and construction slots. It makes sence to get the most out of them by by spamming high tiers non-stop.
    Doomstacking can be achieved without 50 to 75% of the army being single entity monsters (tbf though, it's harder for sone races).
    In this regard it can be improved
    Additionaly '"improved" in a game doesn't always necessarily mean "make it more effective", but "make it more fun".
    There is a clear definition for "efficient play", whereas "fun play" is subjective and absolutely inapplicable to AI: it either plays efficiently or it does not. If you are playing the game efficiently and you don't get the abovementioned "fun" out of it, then there is a problem with game design and ruleset.
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