Summoned units should not degrade

akaLuckyEye · September 2019

Hello!

I don't think that summoned units on the battlefield should degrade over time.
My guess is that they did this change because of multiplayer and I can understand that.
But for the campaign there is no good reason for it in my opinion.

Vampire Counts, Vampire Coast, Tomb King, Skaven & Lizardmen have summoning spells or abilities, giving them a tech research so summoned units don't degrade over time or for the summoning spells last skill upgrade they stop degrading, That way it won't effect multiplayer.

Summoning spells feel very underwhelming right now I rather use my winds of magic for wind or vortex spells. This small change would make summoning spells useful, right now I feel that they are not worth casting.

Some lords have strong summoning spells like Helman that can summon Grave Guards but i think it is fine that you can do that in the campaign.

sieah · September 2019

ItS tOo OvErPoWeReD iN mUlTiPlAyEr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lord_Distamorfin · September 2019

Undead I can understand, but it makes no sense that a unit of clanrats just drops dead after a certain amount of time.

Krabbz · September 2019

Multiplayer cry babies are the reason this was made...
The game would so much more balanced and polished without this stupid multiplayer.

Anyway, there's a great mod on the workshop that stops units from degrading and it's compatible with pretty much anything. You should get it.

akaLuckyEye · September 2019

Lord_Distamorfin said:
Undead I can understand, but it makes no sense that a unit of clanrats just drops dead after a certain amount of time.

I get your point but it is not like your undead armies are crumbling over time on the campaign map and they are summoned the same way technically.

But yeah clanrats are already weak so it would not really be a problem if they did not degrade over time. They run away most of the time anyway.

Arthas_Menethil · September 2019

Issue is I'm betting the whole summon degeneration was because of Savage Dominion which CA had changed from the source to summon a Cygor instead of a pure melee monster. Which then brought its own balance issues in a time (game 1) where magic was messed up due to the magic damage using the scaling of 1 unit size for all unit sizes.

Issue also comes from CA's hammer style balancing at times in which something like Savage Dominion also ends up affecting Undead summons despite having different uses.

akaLuckyEye · September 2019

Krabbz said:
Multiplayer cry babies are the reason this was made...
The game would so much more balanced and polished without this stupid multiplayer.

Anyway, there's a great mod on the workshop that stops units from degrading and it's compatible with pretty much anything. You should get it.

Lets not call people that enjoy multiplayer crybabies. We don't gain anything from calling people names.

Sadly they can't change Campaign and Multiplayer separately and because of that I think CA need to be better at adding skills and/or tech tree when doing changes for Multiplayer so it won't effect the Campaign as much.

Yeah I have seen the mod, I don't use mods because I don't want to deal with problems when patches come out. But thanks for the recommendation.

mightygloin · September 2019

Lord_Distamorfin said:
Undead I can understand, but it makes no sense that a unit of clanrats just drops dead after a certain amount of time.

Mass cardiac arrest

Cyresdog · September 2019

99.9% off the problems on this Forum can easily be dealt with via mods... why is no one using them?

Elder_Moloch · September 2019

I would say simple fix to make them cost-effective at least, like decreasing their cost or increase their timer with Upgrade could make them more viable.

Tbh, atm summon issue doesn't seem like problem solely for SP, but for MP as well. Most summons are in quite weak position.

If to talk about Counts:
I won't mind, if Master of the Dead Upgrade or Loremaster Upgrade would delete their timer. Alternatively, Master of the Dead AoE Ability could stop it, when within AoE.
Maybe Lore attributes could grant +5 seconds to any summon or something.
Idk about second/third Upgrade though. I would prefer IoN being improved back as well for Campaign at least, even if it would cut 50% healing from any Large target in a game, lol.

But then I don't know about other summons for other rosters.

Maybe afterall, your solution would be easiest at least, if second/third Upgrade for Summon would delete timer in general (or at least doubles it, since deleting it fully sounds a bit too much for such upgrade even for campaign, especially in early game).
At the same time Krell Summon should also be changed in that case to make it easier to get rid from timer.

Edited: I just want to specify, that I'm more in line with improving it within degradation ratio timer. I think excluding it fully would require some nerfs in other aspects, like excluding price/cooldown decrease and actually presenting price/cooldown increase.

Lord_Distamorfin · September 2019

Cyresdog said:
99.9% off the problems on this Forum can easily be dealt with via mods... why is no one using them?

Mods shouldn't be necessary to fix problems with the game. Mods should be there purely to enhance the base experience or change it in some way.

akaLuckyEye · September 2019

Cyresdog said:
99.9% off the problems on this Forum can easily be dealt with via mods... why is no one using them?

I personally do not like to use mobs because it can increase the chance of things not working properly and when patches are released the modes might stop working, then I have to wait for the moder to update or play without them.

Also giving feedback on how they can improve on how they balance the game for Campaign and Multiplayer are important. You play Multiplayer and Campaign differently and therefor units and spells are used differently. Sadly they can't change one without changing the other and somethings that works well in Multiplayer do not work that well in the Campaign.

I think that it is important that CA improve on how they balance the game for multiplayer and campaign, somethings like the summoning spells are most of the time a waste of magic on the higher difficulties now, in my opinion.

Sure moder can make changes to the game even fix bugs but that do not mean CA should make changes without thinking how it will impact Multiplayer and the Campaign.
If moders make developers (or publisher) think less on how to improve their game or think less on how to balance the game, then moders are something that hurt this industry.

This do not mean that CA should bow to every suggestion people have. It's their game, they make it how they want it.
But summons did not degrade over time at first it was a change they did later on.

I never felt that summons was a problem when playing the campaign but after the change in WH1 i have only used it to stop charges because that is the only time it would be worth the magic. There is no need to cast a spell that gives you a unit that become weaker with time when you can cast a wind or vortex spell instead,
If the summoned unit stayed on the battlefield it would be worth casting but right now it is not.

If was a huge change that was needed for multiplayer but the change made it useless in the campaign.

Sagranda · September 2019

No degradation mods are pretty safe when it comes to updates and very very seldom may cause compatibility problems. They're also very easy to make yourself and to update should something change. The same goes for mods that change the Summon Spell's charges, cost, etc., outside of the thing with compatibility.
Doesn't mean that one can't make suggestions, that's right.

That said though, I haven't played a single MP match in this game, but I'm still glad that they added something in an attempt to balance summons, since they were too strong (imho) even in SP.
What I don't like is that the numbers are just a little bit too high and the jump to "phase II" is way too huge (from 8 damage per 0,2 seconds on one entity to 750 damage every 0,2 seconds on up to 10 entities. That's just nuts).
It also was the wrong way to go for units that have Leadership, especially the ones with "Low Leadership" like Clanrats, since the damage will ensure that they rout really quickly.

akaLuckyEye said:

I think that it is important that CA improve on how they balance the game for multiplayer and campaign, somethings like the summoning spells are most of the time a waste of magic on the higher difficulties now, in my opinion.

So is Corruption and other things. Higher difficulties throw balance out of the window either way. That doesn't mean that I don't agree that CA should look at it again.

The issue with adding balance changes to the campaign always comes down to "according to whom do you want to implement changes? Which "crowd" do you want to please?"
It's a nightmare to do it.
I mean, there are those who want balance according to lore, then according to the TT, then there are the ones who just want an unbalanced mess (yes, they exist) and there are those who want balance according to how the units are ingame.

Just looking at the current situation with Summoning Units. You would like them not to degrade. I'm fine with degradation for Undeads, but think that they should look at the nummbers again.

For Clanrats and other units with Leadership there needs to be a different way. The damage hurts them too much.

akaLuckyEye said:

Sadly they can't change Campaign and Multiplayer separately and because of that I think CA need to be better at adding skills and/or tech tree when doing changes for Multiplayer so it won't effect the Campaign as much.

They could, but it would be a huge amount of work and it's certainly easier to do it via. buildings, techs, lord/hero skills, etc.
But I haven't really run into something that allegedly got changed solely for MP that I didn't find too strong in SP as well.

Xenos7777 · September 2019

blame the twenty-five people total that play multiplayer...

akaLuckyEye · September 2019

Xenos7 said:
blame the twenty-five people total that play multiplayer...

You should not blame anyone, it's nobody's fault. This hostility towards people that enjoy multiplayer is not helpful. It is destructive and leads nowhere. Be creative instead, give feedback with suggestions on how you would change it.

Elder_Moloch · September 2019

Cyresdog said:
99.9% off the problems on this Forum can easily be dealt with via mods... why is no one using them?

Because in game problems should be solved not via mods, but with in game fixes via patches.

____________________________

@akaLuckyEye

I never felt that summons was a problem when playing the campaign but after the change in WH1 i have only used it to stop charges because that is the only time it would be worth the magic.

Without this degrading feature though, most summons would be nerfed in terms of charges and would cost more, like in WH1, before WE DLC. Before update Raise Dead had like 2 charges and cost around 8/11 WoM. With that said, it was easier to balance for MP, I must admit.

Ichon · September 2019

There is a mod for no degradation of summons but... wow do battles vs Skaven and Undead become grinds. Like from 10 minutes to 25 minutes or more.

Personally I like the mod that extends healing cap and summons time by 300% so heal spells work much better but are not unlimited and summons last long enough to be annoying (rather than currently just ignore them most of the time as the time it takes to position a unit to deal with summons the summons is already fading). Most summons last less than 20 seconds now so if the average battle is 8 minutes so not even 5% of the battle length. If that summons is 15% of the battle length and there is enough winds of magic to cast it 3-6 times then suddenly the battle is more interesting but not endless grind.

Also the AI habit to cast summons and heals willy-nilly actually doesn't hurt it as much with those mods. The HE casting Apatheosis and the WE Life Bloom constantly actually makes a difference when fighting against them rather than currently being basically a waste of magic.

Really only DE and Skaven feel like dangerous magic users under AI, allowing the healing and summoning magics equal power makes the game more balanced.

Unfortunately for game balance that stackable summons/heals break multi which is mostly due to the very small fund limits for most battles which is based on performance and average micro abilities not balance between units and magic system.

Amonkhet · September 2019

I think for the campain its time to remove the healing cap and summon time limit.

ShiroAmakusa75 · September 2019

Amonkhet said:
I think for the campain its time to remove the healing cap and summon time limit.

Why make campaigns even more of a cakewalk than they already are?

darkgaia01 · September 2019

well the main problem is CA not applying the same method they did with krelll summon to the rest of the summoned units to decrease the degrading within the character skill tree which would solve alot of problems with summons and healing this would in turn make it so higher lvled characters feel more powerful and dangerous compared to a lower lvled one.

Arthas_Menethil · September 2019

If summon degrading is to be a thing how a unit is used should effect its timer. And I don't mean movement or fighting I mean is the Unit a tarpit or meant to damage as a unit of Zombies and Clan rats should not degrade at the same rate as a Cygor, Plague monks and Grave Guard due to their different roles.

Elder_Moloch · September 2019

@Sagranda

I would edit it, if you don't mind. A bit too much text from me and want to specify some and exclude some of my usual complainments.

since they were too strong (imho) even in SP.

I would disagree regading at least Counts in WH2.
During WH1 "unbreakable degrading mass summons" release and even maybe after fixes - sure.
During pre current change with 2-3 phase conditions - there were only 2 aspects for Counts, which gave advantage, which seemed off to me - ability to summon ground troops, while in air and mass summoning with few summoners (which could be solved with recharge penalties for each summon on battlefield). Rest was in very fine spot.
Atm Upgrade for Raise Dead seems useless apart from Necromancers with Master of the Dead and even then overcasted version is dangerous/useless. And elite Counts summons apart from Varghulf all quite bad atm, while pre-change it was quite opposite.

It also was the wrong way to go for units that have Leadership, especially the ones with "Low Leadership" like Clanrats, since the damage will ensure that they rout really quickly.

Skaven summons had such thing from the beginning and in previous patch they actually got buffed with 2 Phase change, since degrading speed during 1st Phase was miserable.
With that said - currently they got nerfed with 3 Phases system + WoM increase as far as I'm aware (but all summons basically got nerfed indirectly, apart from Krell).
But then, on top of them being summoned you get ability to deal damage and disrupt formations, unlike many other summons and unlike other summons you could summon above 20 unit cap with Skaven even in QB MP.
And in SP you have additional summon mechanic (which Counts for some reason don't have with their Raise Dead).

As for units with Low LD/poor stats vs Undead - there isn't much difference with Undead chaff, since you have crumbling and usually worse stats and healing synergy was quite ruined with arbitral timer.
Plus Skaven balance wise is superior race atm, imo (both in SP and in MP).
Tehnically Clan Rats are better in almost all aspects for their race, apart from: Counts could summon while in air and Skaven don't have flying/mobile enough mounts for their race; when Skaven summons being focused with big scary stuff or being charged in a back and suffer from shock damage.

Just looking at the current situation with Summoning Units. You would like them not to degrade. I'm fine with degradation for Undeads, but think that they should look at the nummbers again.

If idea is to force living one flee after certain amount of time (as presentation of Routing based units), while Undead degrade (as presentation of Crumbling based units), so it's more of presentation question not a power level - sure, I'll agree.

For Clanrats and other units with Leadership there needs to be a different way. The damage hurts them too much.

Phase 1 doesn't deal damage atm. Phase 2 deals bigger damage, than previous Phase 1 during whole duration. Phase 3 kills unit within 2-3 seconds.
Previous damage for Phase 1 was around 3-4HP/sec, which is nothing compared to pre change degardation damage for any summon. Technically all summons got more resilient and autonomous, but that came with some cost, which atm I think is too much, especially for Counts.

But I haven't really run into something that allegedly got changed solely for MP that I didn't find too strong in SP as well.

Some stuff in SP should be strong or stronger.
Issue is not with nerfing strong things for MP, but that some of these strong things (like IoN/RD), either aren't as strong in SP in general (at least summons were in okayish part pre nerf), either become redundant in mid/late game or on higher difficulties, because of general power curve being increased, because SP and QB MP balance is different and require different things.
In general QB MP balance is formal for Campaign aka affects only base stats of Units/MP Abilities/Traits etc presented in MP and doesn't affect anything, which isn't presented. On top of that, it has own restrictions, like caps/gold restriction/20 units restriction/open map battles only and battle maps only etc, excluding a lot of campaign stuff, which makes it way more different compared to Campaign with all its diversity and progression curve.

In any case I don't argue for no timer for summons at least, if it won't be hidden well until late game progression/character progression.
Also I think IoN should also have upgrades, which improve IoN cap (or exclude it completly with something like Loremaster) and improve: AoE size, Healing output/Cast and Healing/WoM, even if it would come up with -50% healing for Large.

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Ephraim_Dalton said:

Amonkhet said:
I think for the campain its time to remove the healing cap and summon time limit.
Why make campaigns even more of a cakewalk than they already are?

Since it would affect both sides it would be 50/50 solution, if AI would select related skills/units.

With that said, I think no cap for healing HP reserves and no timer for summons may be quite imbalanced thing even for campaign standards. I would prefer stuff being reasonably empowered, rather made too powerful and potentially abusive. So giving tools to improve them, instead of deleting them, seems more balanced, imo.

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darkgaia01 said:
well the main problem is CA not applying the same method they did with krelll summon to the rest of the summoned units to decrease the degrading within the character skill tree which would solve alot of problems with summons and healing this would in turn make it so higher lvled characters feel more powerful and dangerous compared to a lower lvled one.

I think Krell example is quite bad, since Kemmler unique skill tree fully dedicated to single summon support and Krell isn't even Lord Kroak in terms of powers.
But yeah, if upgrades for IoN/summons would be more effecient after these nerfs - that could fix stuff.

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Arthas_Menethil said:
If summon degrading is to be a thing how a unit is used should effect its timer. And I don't mean movement or fighting I mean is the Unit a tarpit or meant to damage as a unit of Zombies and Clan rats should not degrade at the same rate as a Cygor, Plague monks and Grave Guard due to their different roles.

It was a thing before these changes happened and I assume won't be a thing anymore, since again I assume, current change was made to make summons time on battlefield more readable.

akaLuckyEye · October 2019

Elder_Moloch said:

In any case I don't argue for no timer for summons at least, if it won't be hidden well until late game progression/character progression.

Sorry for a late answer, I have been really busy.

I personally would prefer if you could only summon one unit with no timer, instead of how it is now.

If I recall you can spend two skill points on raise dead. What they could do is add a third upgrade to raise that takes away the timer and limit it to one or two casts or add a new skill in the second spell skill branch.

My suggestion would be that Zombies, Skeletons, Ghouls & Zombie Pirates would have 1 or 2 casts and all other units that you can summon like Crypt Ghouls, Grave Guards, Wight King, Cygor and so on, you can only cast one time.

In my opinion right now there is no reason to use a summoning spell when you can cast a direct damage spells that will have a greater impact. I have only find use of summoning spells when I need to stop a cavalry or monster charge.

RikRiorik · October 2019

Krabbz said:
The game would so much more balanced and polished without this stupid multiplayer.

That sounds like an oxymoron to me.

'People worried about balance are the reason things are unbalanced'.

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