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Harpies for Chaos?

2twoto2twoto Posts: 39Registered Users
edited October 4 in Balancing Discussions
As the title says: should the Chaos roster receive harpies, specifically to help them deal with flying units?

I would argue yes, as Chaos has just about always had issues dealing with flying units, with notable struggles including vs gyros (which basically require a 1000gp+ investment in an exalted hero on a maticore, eats a rare single entity slot, and can quite be countered by good micro on the opponents part), terradons (skink chiefs in particular, though not as strong as before, can still poke down high-value targets with little the chaos player can do about it), and deck-droppers.

Harpies would help with these situations by providing a cheaper screening unit to help defend against such aerial threats, but can still be realistically defeated by opponents and won't give Chaos a powerful air presence (best they could do is Chaos Dragon + 2 Manticores [most likely exalted heroes to avoid rampage] + 2 harpies, which wouldn't be that strong insofar as air-armies go but could occasionally surprise an opponent). Overall, I think it would be to the benefit of most of Chaos' matchups without breaking any of them in chaos' favor.

Thoughts?

Edit: forgot to add 2 more points in advocation for harpies being added to the Chaos roster:

First, it is thematic for Chaos: harpies are chaos creatures (hence their presence on the beastmen roster).

Second, it will help Chaos against kiting builds in general, something which Chaos struggles against due to their relatively slow roster.
Post edited by 2twoto on

Comments

  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,305Registered Users
    Lore wise it makes sense, but I feel that chaos actually has the tools it needs to deal with enemy flyers. Horsemasters are fantastic units overall for example.

    But I think the biggest issue with including harpies is that they are very strong at fostering aggressive style of play. I think that having what is basically a very effective "heat seeker missile" flyer on chaos is a bad idea, as a lot of their infantry and heavy cav already work like that.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • AsamuAsamu Posts: 593Registered Users
    edited October 4
    Nah, Chaos didn't get harpies on TT, and I think Furies would actually make more sense for Warriors of Chaos than harpies, given their much closer ties to daemons.

    It'd be nice to have better options to contest the air for the VC match up than manticores, but we'd have to either wait for Chimeras or get them to add riderless chaos dragons, which honestly, I'm a bit surprised they didn't do, considering they did it for the dragons of every other faction, and Chaos was the only faction that had a riderless dragon option on TT without resorting to the storm of magic stuff, even if it was a named character, and Chaos dragons were also an option through storm of magic, just like every other type of dragon.

    They should give Greenskins access to Wyverns as well.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,247Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    Lore wise it makes sense, but I feel that chaos actually has the tools it needs to deal with enemy flyers. Horsemasters are fantastic units overall for example.

    But I think the biggest issue with including harpies is that they are very strong at fostering aggressive style of play. I think that having what is basically a very effective "heat seeker missile" flyer on chaos is a bad idea, as a lot of their infantry and heavy cav already work like that.

    Chaos gets abused hard by VC and V.Coast, the main reason is that it doesn't have enough air in both cases to contest Terrorgheists or Gunbats respectively.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,305Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Seldkam said:

    Lore wise it makes sense, but I feel that chaos actually has the tools it needs to deal with enemy flyers. Horsemasters are fantastic units overall for example.

    But I think the biggest issue with including harpies is that they are very strong at fostering aggressive style of play. I think that having what is basically a very effective "heat seeker missile" flyer on chaos is a bad idea, as a lot of their infantry and heavy cav already work like that.

    Chaos gets abused hard by VC and V.Coast, the main reason is that it doesn't have enough air in both cases to contest Terrorgheists or Gunbats respectively.
    Fair enough, but what happens when chaos gets access to flamers of tzeench? Or screamers of tzeench? The list goes on. Chaos is likely going to become a monster when Warhammer 3 releases, and harpies at that point are going to be both unnecessary and technically speaking won't belong in the roster anyways.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,247Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    Green0 said:

    Seldkam said:

    Lore wise it makes sense, but I feel that chaos actually has the tools it needs to deal with enemy flyers. Horsemasters are fantastic units overall for example.

    But I think the biggest issue with including harpies is that they are very strong at fostering aggressive style of play. I think that having what is basically a very effective "heat seeker missile" flyer on chaos is a bad idea, as a lot of their infantry and heavy cav already work like that.

    Chaos gets abused hard by VC and V.Coast, the main reason is that it doesn't have enough air in both cases to contest Terrorgheists or Gunbats respectively.
    Fair enough, but what happens when chaos gets access to flamers of tzeench? Or screamers of tzeench? The list goes on. Chaos is likely going to become a monster when Warhammer 3 releases, and harpies at that point are going to be both unnecessary and technically speaking won't belong in the roster anyways.
    aside from the fact that Warriors of Chaos and Daemons of Chaos were 2 totally separate armybooks in TT, I’m very sure the game will be rebalanced accordingly.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Posts: 229Registered Users
    edited October 4
    Furies are the answer.

    Would be AP generalists I think, more tanky than rippers (numbers) but less powerful.

    Would be such a relief for chaos

    Chimeras as a second flying monster choice
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,305Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Seldkam said:

    Green0 said:

    Seldkam said:

    Lore wise it makes sense, but I feel that chaos actually has the tools it needs to deal with enemy flyers. Horsemasters are fantastic units overall for example.

    But I think the biggest issue with including harpies is that they are very strong at fostering aggressive style of play. I think that having what is basically a very effective "heat seeker missile" flyer on chaos is a bad idea, as a lot of their infantry and heavy cav already work like that.

    Chaos gets abused hard by VC and V.Coast, the main reason is that it doesn't have enough air in both cases to contest Terrorgheists or Gunbats respectively.
    Fair enough, but what happens when chaos gets access to flamers of tzeench? Or screamers of tzeench? The list goes on. Chaos is likely going to become a monster when Warhammer 3 releases, and harpies at that point are going to be both unnecessary and technically speaking won't belong in the roster anyways.
    aside from the fact that Warriors of Chaos and Daemons of Chaos were 2 totally separate armybooks in TT, I’m very sure the game will be rebalanced accordingly.
    They were, but that's not good enough. Because, warriors of chaos has quite a few missing units. Chimeras, Mutaliths, The first chaos dragon himself, All the new lores we will get, Plus mutations.

    And let's be honest, what are harpies going to do with terrorgheists and deck droppers? Against coast, at best the harpies will jump on some guns, which is again something chaos doesn't need help with. Against counts, you'd need a lot of harpies to successfully get rid of even one gheist. Sorry don't buy this idea still. If you want to help chaos in the air, we can compromise and ask for a chimerae.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • AsamuAsamu Posts: 593Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    Green0 said:

    Seldkam said:

    Lore wise it makes sense, but I feel that chaos actually has the tools it needs to deal with enemy flyers. Horsemasters are fantastic units overall for example.

    But I think the biggest issue with including harpies is that they are very strong at fostering aggressive style of play. I think that having what is basically a very effective "heat seeker missile" flyer on chaos is a bad idea, as a lot of their infantry and heavy cav already work like that.

    Chaos gets abused hard by VC and V.Coast, the main reason is that it doesn't have enough air in both cases to contest Terrorgheists or Gunbats respectively.
    Fair enough, but what happens when chaos gets access to flamers of tzeench? Or screamers of tzeench? The list goes on. Chaos is likely going to become a monster when Warhammer 3 releases, and harpies at that point are going to be both unnecessary and technically speaking won't belong in the roster anyways.
    Flamers don't fly, and both of those units are Daemons, not WoC units. Tzeentch Chaos will probably be favoured vs VC if they get a combined roster, since it gets some extra missile units that'll probably be good for the match up, and better units to fight for air superiority. A Tzeentch Dragon lord + Screamers (which should be anti-large) would probably win the air fight against VC. I don't see them making greater Daemons or Daemon princes fly though.

    Nurgle gets Plague Drones, which, while probably not as heavy hitting as screamers for the air fight, will likely be more expensive and more durable, and Nurgle will most likely have access to some healing/regeneration.

    Furies are the answer.

    Would be AP generalists I think, more tanky than rippers (numbers) but less powerful.

    Would be such a relief for chaos

    Chimeras as a second flying monster choice

    Only Slaanesh Furies would be AP, and no kind of fury unit would be at all comparable to rippers; they'd be much closer to harpies, a bit cheaper if anything.

    They had +1 strength on harpies, but had only 1 attack compared to the harpies 2, and lower initiative, making harpies much better in melee. They were tougher due to being daemons and having a ward save, but they had the lowest leadership in the entire game alongside zombies and Skaven slaves (not that leadership really mattered that much in TT, since everything in range used the general's leadership, and being Daemons, they were ITP, so leadership only mattered if they both lost combat and were out of range of the general).

    They'd basically be like harpies, but with a ~10% ward save/physical resistance and lower melee attack and/or weapon damage, and the leadership of bats; slaanesh furies would get more AP, Nurgle furies would get more melee defense and/or HP, Khorne furies would get a better CB, and Tzeentch furies would get a better ward save (if we're going by tabletop stats). They'd probably be closer to harpies in terms of price though.


    Thinking about it again, giving chaos harpies isn't unreasonable, though I think chaos dragons would be a better option (requiring a Chaos Rift and Pillar of Skulls or Reliquary of Chaos on campaign), as it's more in line with what they've done for other rosters by giving them their dragons as monster options.

    Either way, it's not something they'll implement until the next major patch, if ever, and it's not something that needs to be high priority. There are much larger issues than chaos not being able to contest the air against factions with stronger air options; it's something that tends to break match ups. If chaos had reliable air dominance against VC, the entire match up dynamic would flip, and Chaos would be pretty much impossible for VC to beat (not that harpies or chaos dragons would necessarily make that happen; VC has access to vargheists to take the air fight anyway if they're worried about it).
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,305Registered Users
    Asamu said:

    Seldkam said:

    Green0 said:

    Seldkam said:

    Lore wise it makes sense, but I feel that chaos actually has the tools it needs to deal with enemy flyers. Horsemasters are fantastic units overall for example.

    But I think the biggest issue with including harpies is that they are very strong at fostering aggressive style of play. I think that having what is basically a very effective "heat seeker missile" flyer on chaos is a bad idea, as a lot of their infantry and heavy cav already work like that.

    Chaos gets abused hard by VC and V.Coast, the main reason is that it doesn't have enough air in both cases to contest Terrorgheists or Gunbats respectively.
    Fair enough, but what happens when chaos gets access to flamers of tzeench? Or screamers of tzeench? The list goes on. Chaos is likely going to become a monster when Warhammer 3 releases, and harpies at that point are going to be both unnecessary and technically speaking won't belong in the roster anyways.

    Furies are the answer.

    Would be AP generalists I think, more tanky than rippers (numbers) but less powerful.

    Would be such a relief for chaos

    Chimeras as a second flying monster choice

    Snip

    Basically you didn't read my other reply so the only thing I'll say is flamers don't need to fly to help kill flying units. Unless you are going to make the argument ranged units can't kill flyers effectively.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,171Registered Users
    It's Warriors of Chaos not Chaos in general. As I said time ago, in TWW3 we should get a Chaos faction containing all Chaos subfactions' units.
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