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DE/HE cav suggestion.

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  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 920Registered Users
    edited October 10
    Green0 said:

    turrehund said:

    turrehund said:

    But they've just beaten a 1150 unit which is ostensibly a similar type of cav and yet they are at around 50% health, which can be healed in all likelihood back over MM.

    Buff Reiksguard?

    The point is that the difference between DP beating something 1v1 with 50% health and 25% health left is deceivingly small, because it's between 100% and 50% that DP put up a fight.
    Alright well if they have enough Dragon Princes, they can't remove Martial Prowess from all of them, so it will be overpowered, or just keep them back at first.
    I mean, the argument "just bring more of them" can be used for any unit. And Dragon Princes are needed to challenge enemy mobility, so it's not always an option to keep them back.
    No, because Dragon Princes have some of the best tuning as shock cav, so they can afford to have extra all the time unlike Demigryphs, who it will be a waste if they don't fight certain targets.

    So making Dragon Princes stronger against cav makes them OP, they struggle against such few cav.

    HE can turtle with no mobility on the ground and win, buffing their cav is imbalanced.

    They are mediocre sometimes with no Martial Prowess, same thing as DE with no Murderous Prowess, players have to play it accordingly.
    you realize that any ~1000g cav can do the same work vs infantry as Dragon Princes right? It's performance vs cav and armored, elite infantry that matters if you need to pay a premium.
    I mean, by that logic any 400 point sword infantry does the same work as sisters of slaughter, or any dragon does the same work as a star dragon, or any sword and shield unit does the same job as chosen/ironbreakers. Why bring hammerers if you can bring dwarf warriors with great weapons? They both pierce armor.

    Just because units have overlapping roles doesn't mean that more expensive versions are obsolete. DPs are going to outperform their cheaper variants in any engagement with mid-tier cav, they are going to take less damage from all sources, they can destroy their key targets faster while being better into elite infantry with their higher CB and stats.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,241Registered Users
    Cukie251 said:


    I mean, by that logic any 400 point sword infantry does the same work as sisters of slaughter, or any dragon does the same work as a star dragon, or any sword and shield unit does the same job as chosen/ironbreakers. Why bring hammerers if you can bring dwarf warriors with great weapons? They both pierce armor.

    No they don't, Bleakswords don't defeat Gor Herd for example, however Sisters of Slaughter do.

    Dragon Princes defeat Gor Herd, Bleakswords and so on. Silver Helms do too.

    Star Dragon is actually worth the premium because it does better than other Dragons, not only in terms of stats but also in terms of stagger immunity and mass for example so you're wrong the whole point is that the niche of DPs is the same as SH currently.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 920Registered Users
    edited October 10
    Green0 said:

    Cukie251 said:


    I mean, by that logic any 400 point sword infantry does the same work as sisters of slaughter, or any dragon does the same work as a star dragon, or any sword and shield unit does the same job as chosen/ironbreakers. Why bring hammerers if you can bring dwarf warriors with great weapons? They both pierce armor.

    No they don't, Bleakswords don't defeat Gor Herd for example, however Sisters of Slaughter do.

    Dragon Princes defeat Gor Herd, Bleakswords and so on. Silver Helms do too.

    Star Dragon is actually worth the premium because it does better than other Dragons, not only in terms of stats but also in terms of stagger immunity and mass for example so you're wrong the whole point is that the niche of DPs is the same as SH currently.
    Silverhelms dont defeat a rieksguard but DPs do. My point is that you are oversimplifying the comparison between silverhelms and DPs.

    DPs are worth the premium because they do better than other cav, not only in terms of stats but in terms of damage resistance and mass for example so you;re wrong on the point that the niche of DPs is the same as SH's currently because DPs have a far wider range of targets they can engage into.

    The whole point is that star dragons fill their niche by being incrimentally better than the other options, as are DPs to silverhelms, as are reiksguard to empire knights, as are long beards to dwarf warriors, etc et al.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,241Registered Users
    Cukie251 said:

    Green0 said:

    Cukie251 said:


    I mean, by that logic any 400 point sword infantry does the same work as sisters of slaughter, or any dragon does the same work as a star dragon, or any sword and shield unit does the same job as chosen/ironbreakers. Why bring hammerers if you can bring dwarf warriors with great weapons? They both pierce armor.

    No they don't, Bleakswords don't defeat Gor Herd for example, however Sisters of Slaughter do.

    Dragon Princes defeat Gor Herd, Bleakswords and so on. Silver Helms do too.

    Star Dragon is actually worth the premium because it does better than other Dragons, not only in terms of stats but also in terms of stagger immunity and mass for example so you're wrong the whole point is that the niche of DPs is the same as SH currently.
    Silverhelms dont defeat a rieksguard but DPs do. My point is that you are oversimplifying the comparison between silverhelms and DPs.

    DPs are worth the premium because they do better than other cav, not only in terms of stats but in terms of damage resistance and mass for example so you;re wrong on the point that the niche of DPs is the same as SH's currently because DPs have a far wider range of targets they can engage into.

    The whole point is that star dragons fill their niche by being incrimentally better than the other options, as are DPs to silverhelms, as are reiksguard to empire knights, as are long beards to dwarf warriors, etc et al.
    1400g cav

    12 AP

    1200g Knights of Blazing Sun have 13...
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 920Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Cukie251 said:

    Green0 said:

    Cukie251 said:


    I mean, by that logic any 400 point sword infantry does the same work as sisters of slaughter, or any dragon does the same work as a star dragon, or any sword and shield unit does the same job as chosen/ironbreakers. Why bring hammerers if you can bring dwarf warriors with great weapons? They both pierce armor.

    No they don't, Bleakswords don't defeat Gor Herd for example, however Sisters of Slaughter do.

    Dragon Princes defeat Gor Herd, Bleakswords and so on. Silver Helms do too.

    Star Dragon is actually worth the premium because it does better than other Dragons, not only in terms of stats but also in terms of stagger immunity and mass for example so you're wrong the whole point is that the niche of DPs is the same as SH currently.
    Silverhelms dont defeat a rieksguard but DPs do. My point is that you are oversimplifying the comparison between silverhelms and DPs.

    DPs are worth the premium because they do better than other cav, not only in terms of stats but in terms of damage resistance and mass for example so you;re wrong on the point that the niche of DPs is the same as SH's currently because DPs have a far wider range of targets they can engage into.

    The whole point is that star dragons fill their niche by being incrimentally better than the other options, as are DPs to silverhelms, as are reiksguard to empire knights, as are long beards to dwarf warriors, etc et al.
    1400g cav

    12 AP

    1200g Knights of Blazing Sun have 13...
    Yeah we've been over this buddy. They are entirely different units. I've listed the stat comparisons to you a thousand times by now. When you trade literally all of DPs defensive stats for WS and CB, then sure.

    Oddly enough, knights of the blazing sun are horrible in the cav v cav engage because their sustained combat stats are absolute flaming garbage - not to mention they are like the least seen cav in the entire roster despite their "legendary" 13 ap.

    Besides, DPs don't have to worry about their huge damage because of their free 70% fire res =P.
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 750Registered Users
    The discussion needs to reach some conclusion by direct comparisons.

    Dragon Princes are not only equivalent to cav for 1000 vs infantry, on the attacks after the charge Dragon Princes are doing more.

    Green0 must have entirely replaced Dragon Princes with Silver Helms in his armies then. If in fact Silver Helms are always superior, clearly Dragon Princes need a buff, but I don't think that is the case.

    Meanwhile Dragon Princes are far superior to Blazing Sun than 200g, against any armor. So the 1 AP means nothing then.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 351Registered Users
    Dragon Princes are perfectly comparable to the RoR Reiksguard. For just 50 gold more they trade a few stats here and there but overall gain a massive advantage in terms of speed, charge bonus, 20% phys resist and near immunity to fire damage. Tangentially, both have 12 AP.

    Dragon Princes also compare very favorably to Knights of the Blazing Sun: more expensive but also much better.

    As for people crying about the mass nerf, what Sarmatian said.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,880Registered Users

    Green0 said:


    Dragon Princes still have some of the highest dps for 1400 if they avoid units they are weak against, no need for a buff.

    they're also the only cav in the 1400g price range that spectacularly fails vs armor. Make them cost more if necessary but give them like 14-15 AP.
    No they destroy Reiksguard, I really do think you are getting hung up on their 1v1 vs certain cav which are actually not stronger than Dragon Princes vs everything else.
    And get destroyed by demis lances.....
    Reiksguard or Dragon Princes? Players complaining too much, demis die. 24 of them for 1500
    Dragon Princes get destroyed by demis lances who are shock cav and both cost 1400g and only 3 speed difference.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,880Registered Users

    turrehund said:

    turrehund said:

    But they've just beaten a 1150 unit which is ostensibly a similar type of cav and yet they are at around 50% health, which can be healed in all likelihood back over MM.

    Buff Reiksguard?

    The point is that the difference between DP beating something 1v1 with 50% health and 25% health left is deceivingly small, because it's between 100% and 50% that DP put up a fight.
    Alright well if they have enough Dragon Princes, they can't remove Martial Prowess from all of them, so it will be overpowered, or just keep them back at first.
    I mean, the argument "just bring more of them" can be used for any unit. And Dragon Princes are needed to challenge enemy mobility, so it's not always an option to keep them back.
    No, because Dragon Princes have some of the best tuning as shock cav, so they can afford to have extra all the time unlike Demigryphs, who it will be a waste if they don't fight certain targets.

    So making Dragon Princes stronger against cav makes them OP, they struggle against such few cav.

    HE can turtle with no mobility on the ground and win, buffing their cav is imbalanced.

    They are mediocre sometimes with no Martial Prowess, same thing as DE with no Murderous Prowess, players have to play it accordingly.
    What..? demis lances can do better vs many targets than DP's due to higher AP, similar speed. Demis lances are actually a quite good unit just the role they fill in empire roster can be taken up by cheaper heavy cav, and that you get halberds for anti large.
  • ystyst Posts: 6,160Registered Users
    Cukie251 said:

    Besides, DPs don't have to worry about their huge damage because of their free 70% fire res =P.

    Good lord lol now the flood gates open about how hes gonna defend those free fire resist.

    There simply isnt enough nerfs on drag prince, those free 5% blocks need to be removed. And those ld lol wth... they whine about demis op, lots of silence about having +15 ld more.

    Need more nerfs, drag princes such a way overtuned cav, bloody makes chaos knights looks like $1300
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  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 920Registered Users

    Green0 said:


    Dragon Princes still have some of the highest dps for 1400 if they avoid units they are weak against, no need for a buff.

    they're also the only cav in the 1400g price range that spectacularly fails vs armor. Make them cost more if necessary but give them like 14-15 AP.
    No they destroy Reiksguard, I really do think you are getting hung up on their 1v1 vs certain cav which are actually not stronger than Dragon Princes vs everything else.
    And get destroyed by demis lances.....
    Reiksguard or Dragon Princes? Players complaining too much, demis die. 24 of them for 1500
    Dragon Princes get destroyed by demis lances who are shock cav and both cost 1400g and only 3 speed difference.
    So I'm interested. Did you just forget that Dps + 20 CB, or maybe the part where the have 4/5ths the total weapon strength despite having twice as many models, ontop of way higher stats and PR.

    I mean, its not like that gives them a clear advantage in their primary role in cycling infantry. Nah, or course not.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,880Registered Users
    edited October 11
    Cukie251 said:

    Green0 said:


    Dragon Princes still have some of the highest dps for 1400 if they avoid units they are weak against, no need for a buff.

    they're also the only cav in the 1400g price range that spectacularly fails vs armor. Make them cost more if necessary but give them like 14-15 AP.
    No they destroy Reiksguard, I really do think you are getting hung up on their 1v1 vs certain cav which are actually not stronger than Dragon Princes vs everything else.
    And get destroyed by demis lances.....
    Reiksguard or Dragon Princes? Players complaining too much, demis die. 24 of them for 1500
    Dragon Princes get destroyed by demis lances who are shock cav and both cost 1400g and only 3 speed difference.
    So I'm interested. Did you just forget that Dps + 20 CB, or maybe the part where the have 4/5ths the total weapon strength despite having twice as many models, ontop of way higher stats and PR.

    I mean, its not like that gives them a clear advantage in their primary role in cycling infantry. Nah, or course not.
    do some tesitng peharps


    Demis lances perform better in all cases than DP due to higher AP. meanwhile having fear and same speed....

    If you're cycle charging infantry fear is superb, with that CB and MA only vs units with 40 MD DP hit more often but considering they got way way way less AP and WS they stil perform wrose vs those units.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Posts: 7,880Registered Users
    ohh but wait DP are faster....3 speed LMAO
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 920Registered Users
    I mean sure, thats believable if you are incapable of doing basic math.

    You're failing to take into account that a DP unit has 1.8x more models than a demi. Run a basic calculation, assuming that ratio holds true to how many units are in the frontline on a charge - DPs will statistically be dealing more damage to basically anything under 160 armor. And thats before taking into account the disparity in other melee stats.

    Even being super generous and saying there are only 1.3x as many DPs as demis making contact on the charge, and DPs only lose out on damage at 80 armor (again before accounting for melee stats - which will always tilt the balance in DP's favor). Thats the majority of targets in the game.

    Against the majority of infantry units, DPs are undoubtedly and quantifiably more devastating when cycle charging. Its a fact. You are oversimplifying the issue when you are equating more WS and AP to success. I get that my comparison isn't realistic either, but you are clearly not taking into account the advantages added CB and model count give them.
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 750Registered Users
    Dragon Princes do more damage, Demi Lances may win the 1v1 and be stronger only against specific units.

    24 for 1400, Demi Lances get stuck in infantry, after the buff they are still not used.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,362Registered Users

    Dragon Princes do more damage, Demi Lances may win the 1v1 and be stronger only against specific units.

    24 for 1400, Demi Lances get stuck in infantry, after the buff they are still not used.

    Demis were fine at 1450, they just dont really serve a role vs most empire opposition(and they are in fact good in niche MU's like greenskins since they counter BO's well while efficiently manhandling GS AL and being a bit cheaper+more survivable than demi halbs). Empire struggles vs masses of chaff, against which their cheaper cav is better. For disrupting backlines, once again, cheaper cav is better. For fighting enemy cav they have halberds(which are themselves a far more niche unit than most people here would have you believe, since empire is more likely to rely on guns+cheap cav mass to counter monsters, rather than demis). End result is that demis are good in MU's where you aren't expecting super heavy cav/monster play, but want insurance against it, while being more preoccupied with enemy heavy infantry and the threat it presents.
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  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 750Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    Dragon Princes do more damage, Demi Lances may win the 1v1 and be stronger only against specific units.

    24 for 1400, Demi Lances get stuck in infantry, after the buff they are still not used.

    Demis were fine at 1450, they just dont really serve a role vs most empire opposition(and they are in fact good in niche MU's like greenskins since they counter BO's well while efficiently manhandling GS AL and being a bit cheaper+more survivable than demi halbs). Empire struggles vs masses of chaff, against which their cheaper cav is better. For disrupting backlines, once again, cheaper cav is better. For fighting enemy cav they have halberds(which are themselves a far more niche unit than most people here would have you believe, since empire is more likely to rely on guns+cheap cav mass to counter monsters, rather than demis). End result is that demis are good in MU's where you aren't expecting super heavy cav/monster play, but want insurance against it, while being more preoccupied with enemy heavy infantry and the threat it presents.
    It sounds underpowered from this description, they should just get the Halberds.

    Dragon Princes is a stronger 1400 on average.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,241Registered Users


    Dragon Princes is a stronger 1400 on average.

    Care to prove it? Your opinion is well.... your opinion. It's true that DPs have 80 CB, but also less armor for example, lose models more rapidly and don't trade well into nearly as many unit types.
  • SielgaudysSielgaudys Posts: 88Registered Users
    Something for dread knights and dark riders would be nice.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    If you include all the minor advantages that Dragon Prince has, it is not weak compared to the price, but it's not an important issue. You already know why people don't use demi-chicken lances and why they don't use necropolis knights. The problem is that DP is the final- elite CAV of the HE roaster.

    HE does not have a reasonable competitive edge for most of their heavy cavalry. This means that they are forced to play with infantry-based rushes or defensive formation with archers.

    This is very rigid.
    personally, High elves obviously have no fun for me. Because their concept is like the Empire(no, I like em i mean jsut boring to play for me),
    they were balanced and can be anything but nothing particularly strong point.

    and they got nerfed many times on DP, so they are difficult to using strategies centered on cavalry like Empires, Dark Elves, Green Skins, Wood Elves, Lizard Man, and many other factions can using heavy cavalry strategy.
    I mean a game style with a focus on mobility.

    In other cases, some factions that have a hard time choosing a flexible strategy but they have distinct strengths elsewhere. But today's high elves don't has that special point in my view. I think that to be truly balanced faction, the cavalry power should be able to solve the game similarly to other factions, not best and not worst.
    If a high elven cavalry doesn't have a competitive edge, I think it should empower others.

    Be compassionate, bros, just imagine what if the developers say demi-chicken finally got flame resistance! and made it 1550cost, yeah... i'm sure, You won't like it.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    edited October 13
    And I want to say thank you to those who think about DE's cold ones. In fact, other factions already know that DE will bring is Cold One, and it is clear that they will choose an effective cavalry against COK coz DE don't have other choice.

    they are slow and not effective against infantry, so i just want to cost effective against opponents CAV what I paid for the cost , it will not very effective against cavalry make them cost effective against most factions CAV. that's all no greed.

    and If the Dread Knight changes, You are saving an abandoned child. and the game will be more fun.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,241Registered Users
    Cold One Knights are not bad vs infantry. They kill it slowly though. However this is not a problem for DE since they have anti-infantry tools like Warlocks, Dragons and Soul Stealer. They still could use +1/+2 MA.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,241Registered Users
    keroro7 said:

    If you include all the minor advantages that Dragon Prince has, it is not weak compared to the price, but it's not an important issue. You already know why people don't use demi-chicken lances and why they don't use necropolis knights. The problem is that DP is the final- elite CAV of the HE roaster.

    HE does not have a reasonable competitive edge for most of their heavy cavalry. This means that they are forced to play with infantry-based rushes or defensive formation with archers.

    This is very rigid.
    personally, High elves obviously have no fun for me. Because their concept is like the Empire(no, I like em i mean jsut boring to play for me),
    they were balanced and can be anything but nothing particularly strong point.

    and they got nerfed many times on DP, so they are difficult to using strategies centered on cavalry like Empires, Dark Elves, Green Skins, Wood Elves, Lizard Man, and many other factions can using heavy cavalry strategy.
    I mean a game style with a focus on mobility.

    In other cases, some factions that have a hard time choosing a flexible strategy but they have distinct strengths elsewhere. But today's high elves don't has that special point in my view. I think that to be truly balanced faction, the cavalry power should be able to solve the game similarly to other factions, not best and not worst.
    If a high elven cavalry doesn't have a competitive edge, I think it should empower others.

    Be compassionate, bros, just imagine what if the developers say demi-chicken finally got flame resistance! and made it 1550cost, yeah... i'm sure, You won't like it.

    well spoken.
  • keroro7keroro7 Posts: 220Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Cold One Knights are not bad vs infantry. They kill it slowly though. However this is not a problem for DE since they have anti-infantry tools like Warlocks, Dragons and Soul Stealer. They still could use +1/+2 MA.

    soul stealer not effective INF-blob coz they are many numbers, and dragons breath not safety tool in my view, but I agree, Warlocks are certainly effective for infantry, yep, they are good for melee because of the range of motion, but it's not good mass and charging effect in my brain-fficial (Do not checked)

    anyway, I am pleased to balancing either +1 or +2. but I don't want to be too strong against already effective cavalry. So I'm not sure what's right.
    Green0 said:

    keroro7 said:

    If you include all the minor advantages that Dragon Prince has, it is not weak compared to the price, but it's not an important issue. You already know why people don't use demi-chicken lances and why they don't use necropolis knights. The problem is that DP is the final- elite CAV of the HE roaster.

    HE does not have a reasonable competitive edge for most of their heavy cavalry. This means that they are forced to play with infantry-based rushes or defensive formation with archers.

    This is very rigid.
    personally, High elves obviously have no fun for me. Because their concept is like the Empire(no, I like em i mean jsut boring to play for me),
    they were balanced and can be anything but nothing particularly strong point.

    and they got nerfed many times on DP, so they are difficult to using strategies centered on cavalry like Empires, Dark Elves, Green Skins, Wood Elves, Lizard Man, and many other factions can using heavy cavalry strategy.
    I mean a game style with a focus on mobility.

    In other cases, some factions that have a hard time choosing a flexible strategy but they have distinct strengths elsewhere. But today's high elves don't has that special point in my view. I think that to be truly balanced faction, the cavalry power should be able to solve the game similarly to other factions, not best and not worst.
    If a high elven cavalry doesn't have a competitive edge, I think it should empower others.

    Be compassionate, bros, just imagine what if the developers say demi-chicken finally got flame resistance! and made it 1550cost, yeah... i'm sure, You won't like it.

    well spoken.
    I just want to play a better game and gain better experience. bro
  • fierbali111fierbali111 Posts: 20Registered Users
    True, havent used dread knights in ages because they seriously under perform for the cost, even cold one knights who are supposed to be anti cav and ap really struggle to trade up cost wise against most other knights and are horrendous agaisnt infantry making them very niche. the one buff that both these units need is a charge bonus increase as they have the lowest among any cav in the game.

    Also, knights of the ebon claw are the same cost as honed ones but lose handedly to them, honestly dont know what better comparison to show they are under powered.
  • fierbali111fierbali111 Posts: 20Registered Users
    Seldkam said:

    If there are any DE cav units that need help it's the Dark Rider melee variant. They've been a joke ever since the game released. Internal balance is also an issue because if you're going to spend 450 for a backline harass unit, you might as well spend 600 on harpies who won't die to spears (and in many cases tear spears apart). I would say bump them up to near ellyrian reaver tier as elven low tier light cav should be top tier, not just high elf / wood elf.

    true, although they are ok for their target, they are the weakest skirmisher cav cost wise and get absolutely destroyed by ellyrion reavers.
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