So chaff troops are usually the first casualties once the game progresses from early to midgame since they have the rather fatal flaw that they replenish just as fast as elite troops, but die easier and dish less damage and so become simply cost-inefficient. So here's a suggestion of how to increase their value:
Let them replenish to full automatically after every battle you win!
Chaff troops, that is Goblins, Skavenslaves and Peasants are mainly meant to soak up damage and screen for more high value troops. Using them in this way however is, as mentioned above, not a very efficient thing to do as they will get shreddered and then you have to wait for a while for them to either replenish or buy new ones, as understrength chaff troops are very ineffective on the battlefield, which means whatever momentum you gained from your victory is immediately lost. You should not lose momentum because your meatshields were used as, well, meatshields.
That's why I think something as I suggested would help with this issue and make chaff troops useful beyond the early game. Of course, this should also be combined with severely toning down the replenishment of veteran and elite tier troops as well.
P.S.
Excluding the undead here because they can already replace their meatshields immediately after every battle with the Raise Dead mechanic (and TK can just spam no cost slave stacks).
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All non-elf Chaff units should replenish instantly. Being able to raise dead still doesn't make Chaff units worth using by mid-game. If they automatically replenished It'd be a lot more viable.
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4 · 4LikeGhouls would be neat too. Lord knows I never recruit them normally.
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2 · 2LikeI would not extend it to those troops because they're actually considerably better than the three units mentioned in the OP. They can fulfill roles beyond just providing bodies to shield other units, they can actually kill stuff, especially Norscan Marauders who benefit from the Rage mechanic.
As I also said, I would not give it to the undead because they don't need it, they already have means to refilling their ranks of meatshields.
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0 · LikeYou could probably simplify it by saying this should apply to any unit with the "expendable" trait.
But in regards to how this would actually work, I think it should just be a simple "meat shields replenish faster than average while elites replenish slower than average." Also, would you get full replenishment for units that shattered in battle or were destroyed to a man?
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0 · Like@OP - would you implement separate rules for Skaven chaff, since their lore implies their numbers to be just about endless, compared to Bret peasants, at least?
Maybe Skavenslaves should be instantly recruitable too, akin to raise dead for vampires?
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1 · 1LikeThey actually have cooldowns for Regular Raise Dead pools. Their means of refilling chaff aren't that different from what Skaven/GS have in total apart from recruitment cost with 2 Tech Tree upgrades and Landmarks being a bit OP at highest Level (but that's issue with elite units, not with chaff).
On top of that your approach doesn't solve issue with these units becoming redundant for Undead and Replenishement being quite inffective without enough Upgrades or special Characters (Necromancer Lords/Ghorst Starting buff) for Counts at least.
So either fair treatment for everyone, either Counts should get back their additional Replenishement from Battle Sites like in WH1.
_________________________________________________ Also a good idea for Expandable in general, though some may argue that not every Expandable is so easilty recruitable.
And while we here, Counts should also have Raise Dead special campaign summons akin to Skaven.
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0 · LikeNo, they really don't need an even bigger push here.
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0 · Like- While Raise Dead don't need Turns to wait for recruitment, unlike Global Recruitment (which could be upgraded with Regular Recruitment skills/buffs/buildings), buffs for it can't be as effectively upgraded and you don't get chevrons from it
- Raise Dead regular pools require movement to replenish and time to wait when pool would be restored
- They could get access to Elites with it indeed, but it require Full Level Battle Sites, which on Normal difficulties are rarely occur in cases of AI vs AI and require personal investments/specific armies/conditions for both sides for this specific area, while Global Recruitment doesn't require anything like that
- Counts suffer from Attrition, more than anyone else, since whole Campaign Map, is Attrition region for them, until they Upgrade Specific Bloodline Skill (which I find a bit OP as well), corrupt lands, either move in Raiding Stance
- Already replied regading "Dead Rise again" in my quote:
2. You lose with Counts more in any case, since units don't rout, weaker and have inferior upgrades (especially in case of defeats)
3. On top of that their magic is quite weak now (apart from WoD and Macabre for elite units)
While I don't know how the total balance of Counts (at least) would look like in next patch and would IoN be fixed for campaign, but with current IoN, replenishment is way too inferior for Counts (with exception of Ghorst/Necromancer Lords and armies with special Hero) even with Bloodline Upgrade.
I argued that IoN starting restrictions would improve synergy with replenishment as an alternative option, but atm replenishment isn't that much of a good option for them as is and works somehow okayish/good only with mentioned additional options.
And no, I don't refer to bug, I refer to general aspects of mechanic.
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0 · LikeUndead can preserve their momentum way more effectively already.
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0 · LikeI would give it to atleast count zombies at least. Otherwise they are just replaced anyways at the first opportunity for higher tier troops thus not solving the doomstack issue.
Like em or not, the dredge of the vampire coast are useful the entire campaign through. I've had deckhands hold the line long enough vs elite units like swordmasters for my artillery to shred them a new one.
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0 · LikeYou still get replenishment in unfriendly regions, while Counts need to get OP Bloodline Buff to simply walk without issues.
You still could move away without issues in most cases and keep replenishment/recruitment.
You still could replinsh and recruit everything everywhere, while Counts could do this only in specific areas.
On top of that you get Global Recruitment access with Chevrons and while in Garrisons to get better power output/momentum, while Counts would require landmark to field something apart from Zombies/Skeletons above local recruitment and everything without chevrons.
It doesn't require movement speed, only if you are in region with non used pool or in region with Battle SIte, which has own issues, which I already mentioned above.
They could preserve their momentum beter, but they suck in everything else and don't have some stuff or restricted compared to others in terms of even general approach, while other factions apart from GS/BM/WE/WoC usually have something additional on top of that (like mechanics, buffs, good economy, units).
______________________________ During "Hunter and the Beast" patch or pre-patch? Because they got nerfed hard.
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0 · LikeYou can doomstack in 3K but at the cost of like 4 armies that would be more valuable overall. Those militia units are used the entire campaign through.
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1 · 1LikeOn top of that their losses would be benifitial only(!) in certain circumstances (like minimum 14 units on each side and around 2000-3000 casualties for most primitive Raise Dead and I still don't know, if garrison troops counts at all). If you didn't achieve these conditions, you've lost it for nothing.
So apart from, being lucky with Battle Site created by others in good spot or in case of properly created Battle SIte on your own, you are in worse position, until maybe late game, when casaulties don't matter as much due to okayish/good output from economy at this point.
With that said, I do think that there is need for proper cooldowns for Battle Sites, especially in cases of elite units, indeed (but no cost increase, until Counts would get same easily accessible global cost reductions for any type of recruitment).
Being able to recruit TG each Turn is a bit on wrong side, even though not that broken with whole picture of Counts.
I would still prefer balanced, flexible, effective and powerful on average, over imbalanced, non-flexible, situationally effective and situationally powerful.
So you want restrictions for all races, but benifits only for some specific, which aren't Undead even though it fits them as well?
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0 · LikeYou get restricted access to 3 variations of units of basic chaff with cooldowns/province. You can't resurrect 20 units from one basic pool per turn and you won't probably be able to resurrect anything else within few turns in same province (that's why it would require you to spend movement points). Few units of chaff =/= good replenishment, even, if you merge them with damaged units.
And we again return to weaker crumbling units with weaker upgrades and specific conditions for battle sites.
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0 · LikeBut if you did in fact suffer so many casualties you're guaranteed to get a battlesite, so I don't quite get this complaint, since, as I said, undead are rewarded for attritious battles.
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0 · LikeYou contradict yourself here. You say that Vampires should play through losses and then you say they should be punished for losses regadless anything.
You get Battle Site only, if it fits all conditions for both sides and for all circumstances. I periodically kill my own armies on purpose or fight battle in specific way or chase units after battle instead of healing (especially, if I ran out of WoM with current IoN, lol) and don't get any result even with high casaulties in total. I don't get why though, maybe something bugged or Battle Site requirements are just too shady.
Atm, I don't think Counts have good replenishment with taking whole picture into account outside of specific circumstances.
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0 · LikePersonally I'd leave as is.
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0 · Like-Using all caps is the equivalent of shouting. Please don't.
-The "Spam" flag is not a "disagree" flag. Have a care.
-...No, no the "Abuse" flag isn't a "disagree" flag either!
-5.7 Summon a moderator if someone seems to be out of line, or use the report button. Do NOT become another party to misbehaviour
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1 · 1LikeCounts have excellent replenishment because they can replace entire units that were lost straight after every battle and even annihilated units have a chance to spontaneously resurrect.
They don't need to get improvements there.
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0 · LikeI think that the Undead Zombies should have this perk though.
Undead have their raise dead mechanic, true, but that doesn't give you 20 units of fresh zombies every turn. Maybe Zombies could be removed from the raise dead pool to make up for this buff.
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0 · LikeTheres sorta a catch. Make Graveguard, Gunnery Mobs, etc worse and even with bonuses to Zombie/Deckhand getting these chaff rules, won't be enough to make them good again.
There needs to be a way to make Zombies and standard Deckhands more useable. Both should get expendable, these rules, and be removed from the raise dead pool, alongside Vampire Bats. Raise Dead should be for grabbing Mid-Tier and Elites to keep momentum going.
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0 · Like2. Coast balance =/= Counts balance. Coast have nice economy, Global Recruitment to compensate losses, additional mechanics and more buffs including replenishement/Raise Dead buffs etc.
Tbh, I would rework some stuff for Coast specifically, though even if it's in a bit worse spot after all nerfs, then before (but still better, than Counts on average without cheese). But that's whole different topic.
3. What Difficulty you play on and what Unit Sizes you use?
Are you aware, than on Harder, than Normal Difficulties, due to AI fighting more often and being less restricted you get more free Battle Sites from AI or that Ultra Unit Sizes are more rewarding, than anything below, because its not properly scaled?
I'm playing on Normal on Large. And here its a bit problematic to get minimal Battle Site Level naturally or for free. Maybe its due to some hidden requirements (like menitoned 14 units on each side), maybe its due to garrisons not counting or due to replenishment and other stuff. Maybe it's due to AI behavior. I don't know. But it is what it is.
Sure, high level Battle Sites with Elites are strong, but they are not that strong with chaff and base pool is weak.
Sure, Skeletons get No Upkeep. But I would prefer 75-85% Upkeep reduction for Skeletons instead of No Upkeep, if it would boost Replenishement for Units up to 500 gold cost nicely. Even if it would go as a Tech as well.
But again, if IoN would be fixed, which I think is priority, of course I would like to see changes to IoN first (though, if IoN would become a bit OP again, imo its not Replenishment issue).
4. In WH1 it was similar to what we have now, the only thing that it took more Turns for Battle Site to present full access to units of its Level (idk about buildings, I ran tests long ago, but didn't see difference and as result didn't use this tactic anymore - maybe I need to retest it as well). But in WH1 it was a bit easier to play in general (apart from Chaos invasion and Dwarfs/GS lands), since start was different/map was different, auto-resolve seem different and AI was much more different. Also neigbours were different and what they had and you had better relationships with many.
And in WH1 you have actually good IoN/RD to compensate after battle, while in WH2 only +20% replenishment from Bloodline buff.
So there is almost no difference between RD in WH1/WH2, apart from longer Turns for Battle Site pool being filled for the first time in WH1. But other aspects were more handy for Counts (apart from Bloodlines and mountain expansion).
Your personal experience may be affected by your personal tactics/approach or AI back then (which also affect Counts atm a lot, because armies more Elite for opponents or/and they don't use lots of spam armies, apart from same Undead, but Undead aren't very active and don't fill armies with chaff like in WH1 actively as well).
5. Counts "excellent" replenishment is based on additional gold investments with their poor starting economy (which compensates only after you take more areas and upgrade more settlements to highest level) and poor trading options or outcome from destructive activity. And even then it depends from Raise Dead basic pool being used or not and were they lucky with Battle Site creation or not. On top of that not everything you want/you need or could afford from Battle Sites (though same could be said about Global Recruitment).
The most positive aspect is that chaff is somehow numerous for high level Battle Sites, while elite units restricted to 1-3/unit and you don't wait as much as with Global Recruitment to fill ranks with new units and don't pay more.
Meanwhile, as I've already said Global Recruitment has its own positive aspects, so overall there isn't much difference, if you don't go for High Level Battle Site for Doomstack spam.
6. It doesn't solve issue with chaff being more worthless due to low replenishment.
With basic Raise Dead you buy additional 4-5 chaff units (Zombies/Skeleton Warriors or Spearmen), which doesn't compensate army losses in many circumstances or even replenish fully your losses of survived units. Basically whole no Upkeep Cost thing become useless with Zombies due to time and gold investements in them.
Similar issue with Bats/Dire Wolves/Ghouls, but those at least effective units in their niche, even though without No Upkeep.
Sure. Skeletons are in better spot with No Upkeep, but after all changes to AI and campaign, even on Normal its problematic with running Skeleton Armies effectively and same losses may not always reach required numbers, because opponent didn't lost enough or had small elite army. But I would agree to exchange Skeletons no Upkeep for 75-85% Upkeep Reduction or Longer Turns to Research, but better replenishment for Units up to 500g (especially in case of Zombies).
7. I don't say particulary that they need (!) to get improvements there (!).
I say they need to get improvements in some area to cover this area as well. I don't care would it be your suggestion (which honestly I partly find excessive even in case of Counts, which it fits a lot) or would it be just better % for post-battle replenishment/regular replenishment/added replenishment from Battle Sites or Dead Rise Again buff or would it be better IoN/RD spells or completly unrelated stuff, which would cover this issue as long as it would be fitting, strong enough, but still balanced.
Something should be improved to cover this up and I don't care, what it would be in particular, though as you may know I like exotic non-direct approaches more, than direct buffs, especially to such mundayne elements (even though in this particular case its fitting). Counts with low healing+low replenishement are a joke.
So in Total:
For Counts (not for Coast) on Normal Difficulty/Large Unit Sizes I find current state of Replenishment, Raise Dead+Battle Sites+Dead Rise Again average output and Battle Healing a bit weak overall by default and not covering them properly, apart from Ghorst/Necromancer Lords/Bloodline Buff/Garrison Replenishment.
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