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Automatic Replenishment for Chaff

Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior MemberPosts: 21,139Registered Users
edited October 15 in General Discussion
So chaff troops are usually the first casualties once the game progresses from early to midgame since they have the rather fatal flaw that they replenish just as fast as elite troops, but die easier and dish less damage and so become simply cost-inefficient. So here's a suggestion of how to increase their value:

Let them replenish to full automatically after every battle you win!

Chaff troops, that is Goblins, Skavenslaves and Peasants are mainly meant to soak up damage and screen for more high value troops. Using them in this way however is, as mentioned above, not a very efficient thing to do as they will get shreddered and then you have to wait for a while for them to either replenish or buy new ones, as understrength chaff troops are very ineffective on the battlefield, which means whatever momentum you gained from your victory is immediately lost. You should not lose momentum because your meatshields were used as, well, meatshields.

That's why I think something as I suggested would help with this issue and make chaff troops useful beyond the early game. Of course, this should also be combined with severely toning down the replenishment of veteran and elite tier troops as well.

P.S.

Excluding the undead here because they can already replace their meatshields immediately after every battle with the Raise Dead mechanic (and TK can just spam no cost slave stacks).

Comments

  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Posts: 1,572Registered Users
    edited October 15

    So chaff troops are usually the first casualties once the game progresses from early to midgame since they have the rather fatal flaw that they replenish just as fast as elite troops, but die easier and dish less damage and so become simply cost-inefficient. So here's a suggestion of how to increase their value:

    Let them replenish to full automatically after every battle you win!

    Chaff troops, that is Goblins, Skavenslaves and Peasants are mainly meant to soak up damage and screen for more high value troops. Using them in this way however is, as mentioned above, not a very efficient thing to do as they will get shreddered and then you have to wait for a while for them to either replenish or buy new ones, as understrength chaff troops are very ineffective on the battlefield, which means whatever momentum you gained from your victory is immediately lost. You should not lose momentum because your meatshields were used as, well, meatshields.

    That's why I think something as I suggested would help with this issue and make chaff troops useful beyond the early game. Of course, this should also be combined with severely toning down the replenishment of veteran and elite tier troops as well.

    P.S.

    Excluding the undead here because they can already replace their meatshields immediately after every battle with the Raise Dead mechanic (and TK can just spam no cost slave stacks).

    I would extend this to Marauders (for Norsca and Chaos), Miners for Dwarves, and basic Zombie Deckhands and Zombies/Skeleton Warriors for the Undead and Tomb Kings. Even unshielded Spearmen for Empire.

    All non-elf Chaff units should replenish instantly. Being able to raise dead still doesn't make Chaff units worth using by mid-game. If they automatically replenished It'd be a lot more viable.
  • SephlockSephlock Posts: 2,013Registered Users
    I really wish that at the very least, bats (and maybe wolves) were in the default raise dead pool, along with skeletons and zombies.

    Ghouls would be neat too. Lord knows I never recruit them normally.
    #JusticeForUshoran #RuneGolems #RuneGuardians #ShardDragons #Thunderbarges #Stormfiends #BigMonsters #MoreDakka
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,139Registered Users
    edited October 15
    @Amonkhet
    I would not extend it to those troops because they're actually considerably better than the three units mentioned in the OP. They can fulfill roles beyond just providing bodies to shield other units, they can actually kill stuff, especially Norscan Marauders who benefit from the Rage mechanic.

    As I also said, I would not give it to the undead because they don't need it, they already have means to refilling their ranks of meatshields.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Posts: 1,572Registered Users
    I wish at least for vampire coast, that Zombie Gunnery Mobs w/Handguns were swapped out in basic undead pool for Bats, since its just not worth using them at all, and first building you should build is the gunnery building anyway.
  • Ol_NessieOl_Nessie Posts: 3,225Registered Users

    @Amonkhet
    I would not extend it to those troops because they're actually considerably better than the three units mentioned in the OP. They can fulfill roles beyond just providing bodies to shield other units, they can actually kill stuff, especially Norscan Marauders who benefit from the Rage mechanic.

    As I also said, I would not give it to the undead because they don't need it, they already have means to refilling their ranks of meatshields.

    Not to mention that Miners were never intended to be chaff units in the lore or TT. That's something CA did. They really shouldn't be the "Peasant Mob" of the Dwarfs; they should be "Great Weapon Warriors with Perks." Agreed on Marauders as well.

    You could probably simplify it by saying this should apply to any unit with the "expendable" trait.

    But in regards to how this would actually work, I think it should just be a simple "meat shields replenish faster than average while elites replenish slower than average." Also, would you get full replenishment for units that shattered in battle or were destroyed to a man?
    Build a Slayer Hero and make Miners, Rangers, and Irondrakes great again! Thorek Ironbrow 2020

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,139Registered Users
    Ol_Nessie said:

    @Amonkhet
    I would not extend it to those troops because they're actually considerably better than the three units mentioned in the OP. They can fulfill roles beyond just providing bodies to shield other units, they can actually kill stuff, especially Norscan Marauders who benefit from the Rage mechanic.

    As I also said, I would not give it to the undead because they don't need it, they already have means to refilling their ranks of meatshields.

    Not to mention that Miners were never intended to be chaff units in the lore or TT. That's something CA did. They really shouldn't be the "Peasant Mob" of the Dwarfs; they should be "Great Weapon Warriors with Perks." Agreed on Marauders as well.

    You could probably simplify it by saying this should apply to any unit with the "expendable" trait.

    But in regards to how this would actually work, I think it should just be a simple "meat shields replenish faster than average while elites replenish slower than average." Also, would you get full replenishment for units that shattered in battle or were destroyed to a man?
    If you win a battle, any chaff unit that wasn't wiped out is restored back to full immediately. That's how I'd do it. That would give these types of troops a point beyond the early game.
  • BigbadbearpieceBigbadbearpiece Posts: 68Registered Users
    It’s a simple concept, but ticks all the boxes in my opinion.

    @OP - would you implement separate rules for Skaven chaff, since their lore implies their numbers to be just about endless, compared to Bret peasants, at least?

    Maybe Skavenslaves should be instantly recruitable too, akin to raise dead for vampires?

    More LL for Wood Elves please.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,791Registered Users
    edited October 16
    Excluding the undead here because they can already replace their meatshields immediately after every battle with the Raise Dead mechanic

    They actually have cooldowns for Regular Raise Dead pools.


    As I also said, I would not give it to the undead because they don't need it, they already have means to refilling their ranks of meatshields.

    Their means of refilling chaff aren't that different from what Skaven/GS have in total apart from recruitment cost with 2 Tech Tree upgrades and Landmarks being a bit OP at highest Level (but that's issue with elite units, not with chaff).

    On top of that your approach doesn't solve issue with these units becoming redundant for Undead and Replenishement being quite inffective without enough Upgrades or special Characters (Necromancer Lords/Ghorst Starting buff) for Counts at least.

    So either fair treatment for everyone, either Counts should get back their additional Replenishement from Battle Sites like in WH1.

    _________________________________________________


    Maybe Skavenslaves should be instantly recruitable too, akin to raise dead for vampires?

    Also a good idea for Expandable in general, though some may argue that not every Expandable is so easilty recruitable.

    And while we here, Counts should also have Raise Dead special campaign summons akin to Skaven.
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,139Registered Users

    Excluding the undead here because they can already replace their meatshields immediately after every battle with the Raise Dead mechanic

    They actually have cooldowns for Regular Raise Dead pools.


    As I also said, I would not give it to the undead because they don't need it, they already have means to refilling their ranks of meatshields.

    Their means of refilling chaff aren't that different from what Skaven/GS have in total apart from recruitment cost with 2 Tech Tree upgrades and Landmarks being a bit OP at highest Level (but that's issue with elite units, not with chaff).

    On top of that your approach doesn't solve issue with these units becoming redundant for Undead and Replenishement being quite inffective without enough Upgrades or special Characters (Necromancer Lords/Ghorst Starting buff) for Counts at least.

    So either fair treatment for everyone, either Counts should get back their additional Replenishement from Battle Sites like in WH1.

    _________________________________________________


    Maybe Skavenslaves should be instantly recruitable too, akin to raise dead for vampires?

    Also a good idea for Expandable in general, though some may argue that not every Expandable is so easilty recruitable.

    And while we here, Counts should also have Raise Dead special campaign summons akin to Skaven.
    Eh, Counts can raise dead anywhere, that they can't in certain regions right now is a bug. They can even immediately replace or get access to elites with it. They can also have a chance to revive destroyed units after every battle for free.

    No, they really don't need an even bigger push here.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,791Registered Users


    Eh, Counts can raise dead anywhere, that they can't in certain regions right now is a bug. They can even immediately replace or get access to elites with it. They can also have a chance to revive destroyed units after every battle for free.

    No, they really don't need an even bigger push here.

    - You could Globally Recruit everywhere, everything you have access to and have special safe stance with replenishment, unlike Counts, which don't have stance, safe stance and full access to units (Zombies/Skeletons only)
    - While Raise Dead don't need Turns to wait for recruitment, unlike Global Recruitment (which could be upgraded with Regular Recruitment skills/buffs/buildings), buffs for it can't be as effectively upgraded and you don't get chevrons from it
    - Raise Dead regular pools require movement to replenish and time to wait when pool would be restored
    - They could get access to Elites with it indeed, but it require Full Level Battle Sites, which on Normal difficulties are rarely occur in cases of AI vs AI and require personal investments/specific armies/conditions for both sides for this specific area, while Global Recruitment doesn't require anything like that
    - Counts suffer from Attrition, more than anyone else, since whole Campaign Map, is Attrition region for them, until they Upgrade Specific Bloodline Skill (which I find a bit OP as well), corrupt lands, either move in Raiding Stance
    - Already replied regading "Dead Rise again" in my quote:
    1. Resurrection via "Dead Rise Again" is small, if your army isn't elite enough.
    2. You lose with Counts more in any case, since units don't rout, weaker and have inferior upgrades (especially in case of defeats)
    3. On top of that their magic is quite weak now (apart from WoD and Macabre for elite units)

    While I don't know how the total balance of Counts (at least) would look like in next patch and would IoN be fixed for campaign, but with current IoN, replenishment is way too inferior for Counts (with exception of Ghorst/Necromancer Lords and armies with special Hero) even with Bloodline Upgrade.
    I argued that IoN starting restrictions would improve synergy with replenishment as an alternative option, but atm replenishment isn't that much of a good option for them as is and works somehow okayish/good only with mentioned additional options.



    And no, I don't refer to bug, I refer to general aspects of mechanic.
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,139Registered Users
    Global recruitment even of chaff units requires your army to stand still for at least two turns and up to six for some higher tiered troops. Raise Dead costs no movement whatsoever no matter what you raise, from a zombie to a Mortis Engine.

    Undead can preserve their momentum way more effectively already.
  • RikisRikis Posts: 1,236Registered Users
    edited October 16
    Go even further, make it so "expendable" units arent even wiped out in an army. Give it the 3K treatment in that they are just disabled for a turn or 2 before coming back for free.

    I would give it to atleast count zombies at least. Otherwise they are just replaced anyways at the first opportunity for higher tier troops thus not solving the doomstack issue.

    Like em or not, the dredge of the vampire coast are useful the entire campaign through. I've had deckhands hold the line long enough vs elite units like swordmasters for my artillery to shred them a new one.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,139Registered Users
    Rikis said:

    Go even further, make it so "expendable" units arent even wiped out in an army. Give it the 3K treatment in that they are just disabled for a turn or 2 before coming back for free.

    I would give it to atleast count zombies at least. Otherwise they are just replaced anyways at the first opportunity for higher tier troops thus not solving the doomstack issue.

    Like em or not, the dredge of the vampire coast are useful the entire campaign through. I've had deckhands hold the line long enough vs elite units like swordmasters for my artillery to shred them a new one.

    Well, if Graveguard and the like had a much lower recovery rate and were much more expensive to raise, then zombies would retain some uses.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,791Registered Users

    Global recruitment even of chaff units requires your army to stand still for at least two turns and up to six for some higher tiered troops. Raise Dead costs no movement whatsoever no matter what you raise, from a zombie to a Mortis Engine.

    Undead can preserve their momentum way more effectively already.

    There are buffs that decrease amount of Turns. It's convinient to have buffs both for local recruitment+global, rather separate for Recruitment and cost reductions for Raise Dead only (and only in few specific cases).
    You still get replenishment in unfriendly regions, while Counts need to get OP Bloodline Buff to simply walk without issues.
    You still could move away without issues in most cases and keep replenishment/recruitment.
    You still could replinsh and recruit everything everywhere, while Counts could do this only in specific areas.
    On top of that you get Global Recruitment access with Chevrons and while in Garrisons to get better power output/momentum, while Counts would require landmark to field something apart from Zombies/Skeletons above local recruitment and everything without chevrons.

    It doesn't require movement speed, only if you are in region with non used pool or in region with Battle SIte, which has own issues, which I already mentioned above.

    They could preserve their momentum beter, but they suck in everything else and don't have some stuff or restricted compared to others in terms of even general approach, while other factions apart from GS/BM/WE/WoC usually have something additional on top of that (like mechanics, buffs, good economy, units).

    ______________________________
    Rikis said:


    Like em or not, the dredge of the vampire coast are useful the entire campaign through. I've had deckhands hold the line long enough vs elite units like swordmasters for my artillery to shred them a new one.

    During "Hunter and the Beast" patch or pre-patch? Because they got nerfed hard.
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  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,791Registered Users


    Well, if Graveguard and the like had a much lower recovery rate and were much more expensive to raise, then zombies would retain some uses.

    Same could be said about Races you've mentioned as well.
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,139Registered Users
    edited October 16
    See, that's actually another thing, suffering horrendous casualties is actually beneficial for Counts and Coast, because it very often spawns a battlesite which allows immediate access to higher tiered troops. That's how I usually recruit high tier units when I play VCoast rather than through buildings.


    Well, if Graveguard and the like had a much lower recovery rate and were much more expensive to raise, then zombies would retain some uses.

    Same could be said about Races you've mentioned as well.
    I want this for all races, never said otherwise.
  • RikisRikis Posts: 1,236Registered Users

    Rikis said:

    Go even further, make it so "expendable" units arent even wiped out in an army. Give it the 3K treatment in that they are just disabled for a turn or 2 before coming back for free.

    I would give it to atleast count zombies at least. Otherwise they are just replaced anyways at the first opportunity for higher tier troops thus not solving the doomstack issue.

    Like em or not, the dredge of the vampire coast are useful the entire campaign through. I've had deckhands hold the line long enough vs elite units like swordmasters for my artillery to shred them a new one.

    Well, if Graveguard and the like had a much lower recovery rate and were much more expensive to raise, then zombies would retain some uses.
    Agreed in principle. I'm not agaisn't doomstacking overall but it should be harder to do. Should you concentrate all your economy in one or two stacks or have several armies with a few elites here or there?

    You can doomstack in 3K but at the cost of like 4 armies that would be more valuable overall. Those militia units are used the entire campaign through.
  • RikisRikis Posts: 1,236Registered Users



    During "Hunter and the Beast" patch or pre-patch? Because they got nerfed hard.

    I still find them useful at their intended role. They still hold rather well if you ask me. Cant talk about legendary difficulty, not my cup of tea.

  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,791Registered Users

    See, that's actually another thing, suffering horrendous casualties is actually beneficial for Counts and Coast, because it very often spawns a battlesite which allows immediate access to higher tiered troops. That's how I usually recruit high tier units when I play VCoast rather than through buildings.

    It's not that benefitial, if it's not planned, because it requires additional investments (both resources and time) and losses, which may include valuable stuff. At least Counts don't have good economy to outplay that fairly.
    On top of that their losses would be benifitial only(!) in certain circumstances (like minimum 14 units on each side and around 2000-3000 casualties for most primitive Raise Dead and I still don't know, if garrison troops counts at all). If you didn't achieve these conditions, you've lost it for nothing.
    So apart from, being lucky with Battle Site created by others in good spot or in case of properly created Battle SIte on your own, you are in worse position, until maybe late game, when casaulties don't matter as much due to okayish/good output from economy at this point.


    With that said, I do think that there is need for proper cooldowns for Battle Sites, especially in cases of elite units, indeed (but no cost increase, until Counts would get same easily accessible global cost reductions for any type of recruitment).
    Being able to recruit TG each Turn is a bit on wrong side, even though not that broken with whole picture of Counts.
    I would still prefer balanced, flexible, effective and powerful on average, over imbalanced, non-flexible, situationally effective and situationally powerful.


    I want this for all races, never said otherwise.

    So you want restrictions for all races, but benifits only for some specific, which aren't Undead even though it fits them as well?
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,139Registered Users


    So you want restrictions for all races, but benifits only for some specific, which aren't Undead even though it fits them as well?

    Because undead already have a mechanic that allows them to preserve momentum. You get the basic chaff for Raise Dead no matter whether you spawned a battlesite or not.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,791Registered Users
    edited October 16


    So you want restrictions for all races, but benifits only for some specific, which aren't Undead even though it fits them as well?

    Because undead already have a mechanic that allows them to preserve momentum. You get the basic chaff for Raise Dead no matter whether you spawned a battlesite or not.
    We running in circles.
    You get restricted access to 3 variations of units of basic chaff with cooldowns/province. You can't resurrect 20 units from one basic pool per turn and you won't probably be able to resurrect anything else within few turns in same province (that's why it would require you to spend movement points). Few units of chaff =/= good replenishment, even, if you merge them with damaged units.
    And we again return to weaker crumbling units with weaker upgrades and specific conditions for battle sites.
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,139Registered Users
    edited October 16


    So you want restrictions for all races, but benifits only for some specific, which aren't Undead even though it fits them as well?

    Because undead already have a mechanic that allows them to preserve momentum. You get the basic chaff for Raise Dead no matter whether you spawned a battlesite or not.
    We running in circles.
    You get restricted access to 3 variations of units of basic chaff with cooldowns/province. You can't resurrect 20 units from one basic pool per turn and you won't probably be able to resurrect anything else within few turns in same province (that's why it would require you to spend movement points). Few units of chaff =/= good replenishment, even, if you merge them with damaged units.
    And we again return to weaker crumbling units with weaker upgrades and specific conditions for battle sites.
    If you lost that many troops and got none of them back in the post-battle screen then you screwed up and should be rightfully stymied in your efforts. While I think there should be rewards for winning a battle in the form of preserved momentum, there should be consequences for getting the majority of your army killed as well.

    But if you did in fact suffer so many casualties you're guaranteed to get a battlesite, so I don't quite get this complaint, since, as I said, undead are rewarded for attritious battles.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,791Registered Users


    If you lost that many troops and got none of them back in the post-battle screen then you screwed up and should be rightfully stymied in your efforts. While I think there should be rewards for winning a battle in the form of preserved momentum, there should be consequences for getting the majority of your army killed as well.

    But if you did in fact suffer so many casualties you're guaranteed to get a battlesite, so I don't quite get this complaint, since, as I said, undead are rewarded for attritious battles.

    Sure. If I would lost with Normal faction that doesn't require casualties for "Global Recruitment" replacement and does have good units, with good buffs and upgrades, that would be fair.

    You contradict yourself here. You say that Vampires should play through losses and then you say they should be punished for losses regadless anything.

    You get Battle Site only, if it fits all conditions for both sides and for all circumstances. I periodically kill my own armies on purpose or fight battle in specific way or chase units after battle instead of healing (especially, if I ran out of WoM with current IoN, lol) and don't get any result even with high casaulties in total. I don't get why though, maybe something bugged or Battle Site requirements are just too shady.

    Atm, I don't think Counts have good replenishment with taking whole picture into account outside of specific circumstances.
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  • Lin_HuichiLin_Huichi Posts: 300Registered Users
    What about High Elves? Spearmen aren't exactly expendable chaff. But they cant destroy Chaos stacks.

    Personally I'd leave as is.
  • Bogdanov89Bogdanov89 Posts: 612Registered Users
    Yea it would be cool if after reaching the mid/end game chaff units got something like double replenishment bonuses (capped at 100% max health per turn).
    Check out the Community Bug Fix Mod on the Steam Workshop.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 13,353Registered Users, Moderators
    Zombies coming back for the undead makes some sense, I guess. But that's about it. An interesting idea.
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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,139Registered Users

    What about High Elves? Spearmen aren't exactly expendable chaff. But they cant destroy Chaos stacks.

    Personally I'd leave as is.

    Elves have no meatshields. It's the point of their factions that they can't spare anyone and so throwing troops away should not be encouraged the way it currently is where they get absurdly high recovery from their after battle options.


    If you lost that many troops and got none of them back in the post-battle screen then you screwed up and should be rightfully stymied in your efforts. While I think there should be rewards for winning a battle in the form of preserved momentum, there should be consequences for getting the majority of your army killed as well.

    But if you did in fact suffer so many casualties you're guaranteed to get a battlesite, so I don't quite get this complaint, since, as I said, undead are rewarded for attritious battles.

    Sure. If I would lost with Normal faction that doesn't require casualties for "Global Recruitment" replacement and does have good units, with good buffs and upgrades, that would be fair.

    You contradict yourself here. You say that Vampires should play through losses and then you say they should be punished for losses regadless anything.

    You get Battle Site only, if it fits all conditions for both sides and for all circumstances. I periodically kill my own armies on purpose or fight battle in specific way or chase units after battle instead of healing (especially, if I ran out of WoM with current IoN, lol) and don't get any result even with high casaulties in total. I don't get why though, maybe something bugged or Battle Site requirements are just too shady.

    Atm, I don't think Counts have good replenishment with taking whole picture into account outside of specific circumstances.
    I get battlesites near constantly with VCoast. In Wh1 it was harder to get them, but the requirements in WH2 are pretty low.

    Counts have excellent replenishment because they can replace entire units that were lost straight after every battle and even annihilated units have a chance to spontaneously resurrect.

    They don't need to get improvements there.
  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Posts: 896Registered Users
    I like this idea of automatic replenishment for chaff unit. I also agree that Elves should not have it.
    I think that the Undead Zombies should have this perk though.

    Undead have their raise dead mechanic, true, but that doesn't give you 20 units of fresh zombies every turn. Maybe Zombies could be removed from the raise dead pool to make up for this buff.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Posts: 1,572Registered Users
    edited October 16

    What about High Elves? Spearmen aren't exactly expendable chaff. But they cant destroy Chaos stacks.

    Personally I'd leave as is.

    Elves have no meatshields. It's the point of their factions that they can't spare anyone and so throwing troops away should not be encouraged the way it currently is where they get absurdly high recovery from their after battle options.


    If you lost that many troops and got none of them back in the post-battle screen then you screwed up and should be rightfully stymied in your efforts. While I think there should be rewards for winning a battle in the form of preserved momentum, there should be consequences for getting the majority of your army killed as well.

    But if you did in fact suffer so many casualties you're guaranteed to get a battlesite, so I don't quite get this complaint, since, as I said, undead are rewarded for attritious battles.

    Sure. If I would lost with Normal faction that doesn't require casualties for "Global Recruitment" replacement and does have good units, with good buffs and upgrades, that would be fair.

    You contradict yourself here. You say that Vampires should play through losses and then you say they should be punished for losses regadless anything.

    You get Battle Site only, if it fits all conditions for both sides and for all circumstances. I periodically kill my own armies on purpose or fight battle in specific way or chase units after battle instead of healing (especially, if I ran out of WoM with current IoN, lol) and don't get any result even with high casaulties in total. I don't get why though, maybe something bugged or Battle Site requirements are just too shady.

    Atm, I don't think Counts have good replenishment with taking whole picture into account outside of specific circumstances.
    I get battlesites near constantly with VCoast. In Wh1 it was harder to get them, but the requirements in WH2 are pretty low.

    Counts have excellent replenishment because they can replace entire units that were lost straight after every battle and even annihilated units have a chance to spontaneously resurrect.

    They don't need to get improvements there.
    Actually, with all the changes in the last few dlcs and patches, Undead factions are currently doing pretty poorly in the campain.
    Theres sorta a catch. Make Graveguard, Gunnery Mobs, etc worse and even with bonuses to Zombie/Deckhand getting these chaff rules, won't be enough to make them good again.

    There needs to be a way to make Zombies and standard Deckhands more useable. Both should get expendable, these rules, and be removed from the raise dead pool, alongside Vampire Bats. Raise Dead should be for grabbing Mid-Tier and Elites to keep momentum going.
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,791Registered Users


    I get battlesites near constantly with VCoast. In Wh1 it was harder to get them, but the requirements in WH2 are pretty low.

    Counts have excellent replenishment because they can replace entire units that were lost straight after every battle and even annihilated units have a chance to spontaneously resurrect.

    They don't need to get improvements there.

    1. I want to appologize for misinforming. I ran few tests in WH1/WH2 and there is no additional replenishment. It's just easier and more convinient to start and replenish troops in WH1 with Counts via regular pool due to different side factors. Meanwhile, other arguments still valid, since Counts don't feel that well in current state with current basic replenishment at least for low-tier troops.

    2. Coast balance =/= Counts balance. Coast have nice economy, Global Recruitment to compensate losses, additional mechanics and more buffs including replenishement/Raise Dead buffs etc.
    Tbh, I would rework some stuff for Coast specifically, though even if it's in a bit worse spot after all nerfs, then before (but still better, than Counts on average without cheese). But that's whole different topic.

    3. What Difficulty you play on and what Unit Sizes you use?
    Are you aware, than on Harder, than Normal Difficulties, due to AI fighting more often and being less restricted you get more free Battle Sites from AI or that Ultra Unit Sizes are more rewarding, than anything below, because its not properly scaled?
    I'm playing on Normal on Large. And here its a bit problematic to get minimal Battle Site Level naturally or for free. Maybe its due to some hidden requirements (like menitoned 14 units on each side), maybe its due to garrisons not counting or due to replenishment and other stuff. Maybe it's due to AI behavior. I don't know. But it is what it is.
    Sure, high level Battle Sites with Elites are strong, but they are not that strong with chaff and base pool is weak.
    Sure, Skeletons get No Upkeep. But I would prefer 75-85% Upkeep reduction for Skeletons instead of No Upkeep, if it would boost Replenishement for Units up to 500 gold cost nicely. Even if it would go as a Tech as well.
    But again, if IoN would be fixed, which I think is priority, of course I would like to see changes to IoN first (though, if IoN would become a bit OP again, imo its not Replenishment issue).

    4. In WH1 it was similar to what we have now, the only thing that it took more Turns for Battle Site to present full access to units of its Level (idk about buildings, I ran tests long ago, but didn't see difference and as result didn't use this tactic anymore - maybe I need to retest it as well). But in WH1 it was a bit easier to play in general (apart from Chaos invasion and Dwarfs/GS lands), since start was different/map was different, auto-resolve seem different and AI was much more different. Also neigbours were different and what they had and you had better relationships with many.
    And in WH1 you have actually good IoN/RD to compensate after battle, while in WH2 only +20% replenishment from Bloodline buff.

    So there is almost no difference between RD in WH1/WH2, apart from longer Turns for Battle Site pool being filled for the first time in WH1. But other aspects were more handy for Counts (apart from Bloodlines and mountain expansion).
    Your personal experience may be affected by your personal tactics/approach or AI back then (which also affect Counts atm a lot, because armies more Elite for opponents or/and they don't use lots of spam armies, apart from same Undead, but Undead aren't very active and don't fill armies with chaff like in WH1 actively as well).

    5. Counts "excellent" replenishment is based on additional gold investments with their poor starting economy (which compensates only after you take more areas and upgrade more settlements to highest level) and poor trading options or outcome from destructive activity. And even then it depends from Raise Dead basic pool being used or not and were they lucky with Battle Site creation or not. On top of that not everything you want/you need or could afford from Battle Sites (though same could be said about Global Recruitment).
    The most positive aspect is that chaff is somehow numerous for high level Battle Sites, while elite units restricted to 1-3/unit and you don't wait as much as with Global Recruitment to fill ranks with new units and don't pay more.
    Meanwhile, as I've already said Global Recruitment has its own positive aspects, so overall there isn't much difference, if you don't go for High Level Battle Site for Doomstack spam.

    6. It doesn't solve issue with chaff being more worthless due to low replenishment.
    With basic Raise Dead you buy additional 4-5 chaff units (Zombies/Skeleton Warriors or Spearmen), which doesn't compensate army losses in many circumstances or even replenish fully your losses of survived units. Basically whole no Upkeep Cost thing become useless with Zombies due to time and gold investements in them.
    Similar issue with Bats/Dire Wolves/Ghouls, but those at least effective units in their niche, even though without No Upkeep.
    Sure. Skeletons are in better spot with No Upkeep, but after all changes to AI and campaign, even on Normal its problematic with running Skeleton Armies effectively and same losses may not always reach required numbers, because opponent didn't lost enough or had small elite army. But I would agree to exchange Skeletons no Upkeep for 75-85% Upkeep Reduction or Longer Turns to Research, but better replenishment for Units up to 500g (especially in case of Zombies).

    7. I don't say particulary that they need (!) to get improvements there (!).
    I say they need to get improvements in some area to cover this area as well. I don't care would it be your suggestion (which honestly I partly find excessive even in case of Counts, which it fits a lot) or would it be just better % for post-battle replenishment/regular replenishment/added replenishment from Battle Sites or Dead Rise Again buff or would it be better IoN/RD spells or completly unrelated stuff, which would cover this issue as long as it would be fitting, strong enough, but still balanced.
    Something should be improved to cover this up and I don't care, what it would be in particular, though as you may know I like exotic non-direct approaches more, than direct buffs, especially to such mundayne elements (even though in this particular case its fitting). Counts with low healing+low replenishement are a joke.


    So in Total:
    For Counts (not for Coast) on Normal Difficulty/Large Unit Sizes I find current state of Replenishment, Raise Dead+Battle Sites+Dead Rise Again average output and Battle Healing a bit weak overall by default and not covering them properly, apart from Ghorst/Necromancer Lords/Bloodline Buff/Garrison Replenishment.
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