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Possible solution for doomstacks in WH3?

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  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,134Registered Users

    I don't consider the choice to play intentionally bad just to keep things challenging a real choice. Not using pure elite stacks is a bad move in the unmodded game, period.

    I don't believe I suggested playing bad for a challenge. Nor did I suggest not using pure elite stacks is a good move in the unmodded game, in fact I stated the exact opposite. What I did say is that applying caps to the player is the wrong solution as it takes away their choice.

    Choice is already taken away with the current system as there's no reason whatsoever to not spam elites.
  • whymakemedothiswhymakemedothis Posts: 30Registered Users

    That's simply not true. Players can choose to doom stack or they can choose to play with varied and interesting army compositions. The problem is not that they don't have that choice but that the former is a far more optimal way to play the game. Any solution that fixes this problem for all players, not just those who hate doom stacks, has to do so by making the latter option more competitive not by removing the first all together as caps are designed to do.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,134Registered Users

    That's simply not true. Players can choose to doom stack or they can choose to play with varied and interesting army compositions. The problem is not that they don't have that choice but that the former is a far more optimal way to play the game. Any solution that fixes this problem for all players, not just those who hate doom stacks, has to do so by making the latter option more competitive not by removing the first all together as caps are designed to do.
    No, there's no choice. If I play with low tier armies I'm being inefficient and hobbling myself and the game makes that very clear.
  • HoneyBunHoneyBun Senior Member Posts: 4,501Registered Users
    This 'debate' is brought up by the same, very small group of people.

    There is no "doomstacking" for most players who play on Normal and Hard.

    As I do not play Legendary, I am willing to trust these people when they say it does happen on Legendary. But I'm afraid the answer is to simply say - if you do not like 'doomstacking' then do not play on Legendary.

    Legendary difficulty is not the base game. There is no value in forcing CA to amend everyone's game experience just to make Legendary slightly easier.

    They are making an FPS. Who knew a company could have a mid-life crisis ...

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,134Registered Users
    HoneyBun said:

    This 'debate' is brought up by the same, very small group of people.

    There is no "doomstacking" for most players who play on Normal and Hard.

    As I do not play Legendary, I am willing to trust these people when they say it does happen on Legendary. But I'm afraid the answer is to simply say - if you do not like 'doomstacking' then do not play on Legendary.

    Legendary difficulty is not the base game. There is no value in forcing CA to amend everyone's game experience just to make Legendary slightly easier.

    On easy and normal doomstacking is even more of an issue because you have infinite money almost right away.
  • HoneyBunHoneyBun Senior Member Posts: 4,501Registered Users

    HoneyBun said:

    This 'debate' is brought up by the same, very small group of people.

    There is no "doomstacking" for most players who play on Normal and Hard.

    As I do not play Legendary, I am willing to trust these people when they say it does happen on Legendary. But I'm afraid the answer is to simply say - if you do not like 'doomstacking' then do not play on Legendary.

    Legendary difficulty is not the base game. There is no value in forcing CA to amend everyone's game experience just to make Legendary slightly easier.

    On easy and normal doomstacking is even more of an issue because you have infinite money almost right away.
    The AI does not make doomstacks on Easy or Normal.

    You are suggesting controlling the player?

    They are making an FPS. Who knew a company could have a mid-life crisis ...

  • JadawinKhanidiJadawinKhanidi Posts: 956Registered Users
    I very much doubt that the AI makes different armies depending on difficulty, except that it's almost impossible to play so poorly that on Easy or Normal any AI will even have enough money to afford a doomstack. But if they have the money, they do it. Army compositions are not related to difficulty settings.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,134Registered Users
    edited October 16
    HoneyBun said:

    HoneyBun said:

    This 'debate' is brought up by the same, very small group of people.

    There is no "doomstacking" for most players who play on Normal and Hard.

    As I do not play Legendary, I am willing to trust these people when they say it does happen on Legendary. But I'm afraid the answer is to simply say - if you do not like 'doomstacking' then do not play on Legendary.

    Legendary difficulty is not the base game. There is no value in forcing CA to amend everyone's game experience just to make Legendary slightly easier.

    On easy and normal doomstacking is even more of an issue because you have infinite money almost right away.
    The AI does not make doomstacks on Easy or Normal.

    You are suggesting controlling the player?
    Yes, it does, it only takes longer to get there because it has less money. The AI always goes for the best it has if it can.

    It's the PLAYER who can doomstack almost immediately thanks to all the extra money you get on lower difficulties.
  • HoneyBunHoneyBun Senior Member Posts: 4,501Registered Users

    HoneyBun said:

    HoneyBun said:

    This 'debate' is brought up by the same, very small group of people.

    There is no "doomstacking" for most players who play on Normal and Hard.

    As I do not play Legendary, I am willing to trust these people when they say it does happen on Legendary. But I'm afraid the answer is to simply say - if you do not like 'doomstacking' then do not play on Legendary.

    Legendary difficulty is not the base game. There is no value in forcing CA to amend everyone's game experience just to make Legendary slightly easier.

    On easy and normal doomstacking is even more of an issue because you have infinite money almost right away.
    The AI does not make doomstacks on Easy or Normal.

    You are suggesting controlling the player?
    Yes, it does, it only takes longer to get there because it has less money. The AI always goes for the best it has if it can.

    It's the PLAYER who can doomstack almost immediately thanks to all the extra money you get on lower difficulties.
    A 'doomstack' is a stack containing something like 14 dragons. That does not happen On Easy, Normal or Hard.

    The AI certainly never "spams" stacks like that. Ever. Period.

    A 'doomstack' is not a stack where the AI uses Tier 5 units. You are defining the 'issue' too widely.

    And I don't believe the player should ever be restricted in a sandbox. I see you do and I acknowledge your opinion - but it is not one I will ever agree.

    They are making an FPS. Who knew a company could have a mid-life crisis ...

  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,134Registered Users
    edited October 16
    HoneyBun said:

    HoneyBun said:

    HoneyBun said:

    This 'debate' is brought up by the same, very small group of people.

    There is no "doomstacking" for most players who play on Normal and Hard.

    As I do not play Legendary, I am willing to trust these people when they say it does happen on Legendary. But I'm afraid the answer is to simply say - if you do not like 'doomstacking' then do not play on Legendary.

    Legendary difficulty is not the base game. There is no value in forcing CA to amend everyone's game experience just to make Legendary slightly easier.

    On easy and normal doomstacking is even more of an issue because you have infinite money almost right away.
    The AI does not make doomstacks on Easy or Normal.

    You are suggesting controlling the player?
    Yes, it does, it only takes longer to get there because it has less money. The AI always goes for the best it has if it can.

    It's the PLAYER who can doomstack almost immediately thanks to all the extra money you get on lower difficulties.
    A 'doomstack' is a stack containing something like 14 dragons. That does not happen On Easy, Normal or Hard.

    The AI certainly never "spams" stacks like that. Ever. Period.

    A 'doomstack' is not a stack where the AI uses Tier 5 units. You are defining the 'issue' too widely.

    And I don't believe the player should ever be restricted in a sandbox. I see you do and I acknowledge your opinion - but it is not one I will ever agree.
    No, a doomstack is one that's 20 T4 and T5 units.
  • HoneyBunHoneyBun Senior Member Posts: 4,501Registered Users

    HoneyBun said:

    HoneyBun said:

    HoneyBun said:

    This 'debate' is brought up by the same, very small group of people.

    There is no "doomstacking" for most players who play on Normal and Hard.

    As I do not play Legendary, I am willing to trust these people when they say it does happen on Legendary. But I'm afraid the answer is to simply say - if you do not like 'doomstacking' then do not play on Legendary.

    Legendary difficulty is not the base game. There is no value in forcing CA to amend everyone's game experience just to make Legendary slightly easier.

    On easy and normal doomstacking is even more of an issue because you have infinite money almost right away.
    The AI does not make doomstacks on Easy or Normal.

    You are suggesting controlling the player?
    Yes, it does, it only takes longer to get there because it has less money. The AI always goes for the best it has if it can.

    It's the PLAYER who can doomstack almost immediately thanks to all the extra money you get on lower difficulties.
    A 'doomstack' is a stack containing something like 14 dragons. That does not happen On Easy, Normal or Hard.

    The AI certainly never "spams" stacks like that. Ever. Period.

    A 'doomstack' is not a stack where the AI uses Tier 5 units. You are defining the 'issue' too widely.

    And I don't believe the player should ever be restricted in a sandbox. I see you do and I acknowledge your opinion - but it is not one I will ever agree.
    No, a doomstack is one that's 20 T4 and T5 units.
    Then you are using a different definition of 'Doomstacking' to everyone else and that may be why you think there is a problem but most people don't.

    (and on Hard, I've not even seen your definition of 'doomstack', certainly not before turn 200 and never "spammed")

    They are making an FPS. Who knew a company could have a mid-life crisis ...

  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Posts: 895Registered Users
    Hey @Ephraim_Dalton why would you not accept some alternative approaches that encourge multiple stacking instead of removing doomstacking completely? Wouldn't something that makes both game styles viable satisy you? Why not? Why do you want to impose caps on everyone?

    Here I made a list of things that would make both game styles viable. I never saw what you think about it.
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/249966/alternatives-to-unit-caps#latest
  • whymakemedothiswhymakemedothis Posts: 30Registered Users

    No, there's no choice. If I play with low tier armies I'm being inefficient and hobbling myself and the game makes that very clear.

    Being efficient or inefficient is literally a choice. Granted it's not a good choice but it's still a choice. You can fix that in one of two ways, either you reduce the difference in efficiency between the two or you remove the choice all together.

    Now caps remove the choice but all they'd achieve is reverse the roles of those who are happy with the status quo and those who aren't. As I've already said the best solution is a stingier economy that makes the choice between playing wide(many balanced armies) or tall(doom stacks) one purely of player and AI preference not efficiency. Supply lines would be a good place to start as they actively punish playing wide.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,134Registered Users
    HoneyBun said:

    HoneyBun said:

    HoneyBun said:

    HoneyBun said:

    This 'debate' is brought up by the same, very small group of people.

    There is no "doomstacking" for most players who play on Normal and Hard.

    As I do not play Legendary, I am willing to trust these people when they say it does happen on Legendary. But I'm afraid the answer is to simply say - if you do not like 'doomstacking' then do not play on Legendary.

    Legendary difficulty is not the base game. There is no value in forcing CA to amend everyone's game experience just to make Legendary slightly easier.

    On easy and normal doomstacking is even more of an issue because you have infinite money almost right away.
    The AI does not make doomstacks on Easy or Normal.

    You are suggesting controlling the player?
    Yes, it does, it only takes longer to get there because it has less money. The AI always goes for the best it has if it can.

    It's the PLAYER who can doomstack almost immediately thanks to all the extra money you get on lower difficulties.
    A 'doomstack' is a stack containing something like 14 dragons. That does not happen On Easy, Normal or Hard.

    The AI certainly never "spams" stacks like that. Ever. Period.

    A 'doomstack' is not a stack where the AI uses Tier 5 units. You are defining the 'issue' too widely.

    And I don't believe the player should ever be restricted in a sandbox. I see you do and I acknowledge your opinion - but it is not one I will ever agree.
    No, a doomstack is one that's 20 T4 and T5 units.
    Then you are using a different definition of 'Doomstacking' to everyone else and that may be why you think there is a problem but most people don't.

    (and on Hard, I've not even seen your definition of 'doomstack', certainly not before turn 200 and never "spammed")
    Then I doubt you've played the game all that much on those difficulties. On E and N you just faceroll the AI right away, so that's never much of a problem.
  • JastallJastall Junior Member Posts: 994Registered Users

    eeehm yes? I am indeed defending the chaos invasion mechanic. I think that the game needs a final threat to face. The way it is now is not fun, I agree, but I think that it should exist.

    Anyway, I prefer a limitation like the one that the OP mentioned instead of rare+ special+ core caps. If the caps were completely removable through skills and technologies all the better.

    LoL, right now the Chaos invasion fizzles before it can take off even if you let the AI deal with it.
    Well, that's more a function of overpowered Order races that can easily steamroll Archaon's 5-6 stacks. In my Empire game I was busy conquering Norsca while the Dwarves had literally 7 doomstacks camping the Chaos Wastes. Somehow Archaon and the chickien did survive and punch through, but then I just send Boris and Gelt to clean up the mess.

    As for the OP, a progressive cost to units serving as a soft cap would be best IMO. For basic chaff the increase in cost would come later and be cheap (so for example you can have up to 8 of any Clanrats in an army, after that the upkeep increases by like 5% per) but rare units (Stormvermin, Ratlings...) would allow you to bring 3 or 4, and tier 5-ers like Hellpits would be limited at 2 before truly massive penalties kick in. Some Lord, technology and faction effects could affect these limits of course.

    Straight up caps are too limiting IMO. Doomstacking should be a bit discouraged, but not entirely eliminated. This is a sandbox game after all, and in lower difficulties you should be able to just have 17 Carnosaurs in a stack or something if you want to.
  • HoneyBunHoneyBun Senior Member Posts: 4,501Registered Users

    HoneyBun said:

    HoneyBun said:

    HoneyBun said:

    HoneyBun said:

    This 'debate' is brought up by the same, very small group of people.

    There is no "doomstacking" for most players who play on Normal and Hard.

    As I do not play Legendary, I am willing to trust these people when they say it does happen on Legendary. But I'm afraid the answer is to simply say - if you do not like 'doomstacking' then do not play on Legendary.

    Legendary difficulty is not the base game. There is no value in forcing CA to amend everyone's game experience just to make Legendary slightly easier.

    On easy and normal doomstacking is even more of an issue because you have infinite money almost right away.
    The AI does not make doomstacks on Easy or Normal.

    You are suggesting controlling the player?
    Yes, it does, it only takes longer to get there because it has less money. The AI always goes for the best it has if it can.

    It's the PLAYER who can doomstack almost immediately thanks to all the extra money you get on lower difficulties.
    A 'doomstack' is a stack containing something like 14 dragons. That does not happen On Easy, Normal or Hard.

    The AI certainly never "spams" stacks like that. Ever. Period.

    A 'doomstack' is not a stack where the AI uses Tier 5 units. You are defining the 'issue' too widely.

    And I don't believe the player should ever be restricted in a sandbox. I see you do and I acknowledge your opinion - but it is not one I will ever agree.
    No, a doomstack is one that's 20 T4 and T5 units.
    Then you are using a different definition of 'Doomstacking' to everyone else and that may be why you think there is a problem but most people don't.

    (and on Hard, I've not even seen your definition of 'doomstack', certainly not before turn 200 and never "spammed")
    Then I doubt you've played the game all that much on those difficulties. On E and N you just faceroll the AI right away, so that's never much of a problem.
    You claim the AI spans 'doomstacks' on Legendary. As I do not play Legendary I show you the courtesy of trusting you. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask you show me a similar courtesy.

    On point, I would just highlight that again you are arguing a different issue. You are saying that you find Easy too easy. That is probably true - but has no impact on whether or not the AI spams 'doomstacks' on Easy.

    At the moment you are misusing the word 'doomstacks' and telling us that you find Easy too easy and Legendary too hard.

    That is not, in my view, a reason to serious amend the game or to remove player freedom.

    They are making an FPS. Who knew a company could have a mid-life crisis ...

  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 726Registered Users

    They could have higher tier units occupy more than one unit slot. So if dragons took three and Swordmasters two units slots, an army comprised only of them would have five Swordmasters and three dragons + lord for example. You'd have to make a decision regarding quality of the army and the number of troops you can bring to bear.

    This is bad because it's too simplistic. Some units will take up "too many slots" while other "not enough".
    Explain.
    Your system puts units into "tiers". 1 slot, 2 slots, 3 slots etc. The jump from 1 slot to 2 slots is huge (exactly double). You might have unit A at 1 slot, and unit B be "worth" only 1.4 slots, or 1.7 slots etc. If you make unit B 1 slot, it will clearly be better than unit A and unit A will never be seen again. If you make unit B 2 slots, then it will never be taken because it takes up too many slots in your army for what its worth
    A Swordmaster is easily much better than most mid and low tier infantry, so why shouldn't they force you to have less troops in total? The infinite spammability of elites is the current major issue with army construction in this game. Elite armies simply have no real downside.
    You are straw-manning me or making an unrelated point to what I said while quoting me. I agree 100% that swordmasters are much better than mid/low tier inf.

    What I am pointing out is that what you proposed is bad. (the direction is good and I like, but not the details).

    Here is another idea (maybe this is even worse than yours LOL):

    Have a "gold value" cap on each army based on it's upkeep. I am just going to randomly pull a number out of thin air: say 3000g.

    This cap can than be affected by a myriad of ways: Lord/hero skills or level/ faction traits / events / technologies / enemy actions / terrain / corruption / turns in enemy territory / turns since won/lost battle etc.

    This doesn't have to be a hard cap, but a soft one. So if you go over, any upkeep over this cap is doubled. So an army with max upkeep of 3000g which currently sits at 3600g actually costs 3000g + (600g)x2 = 4200g.

    If this is not enough ( or not good ), then we can say that going over causes leadership penalties, vigour penalties, starts suffering attrition etc. This (these) penalty can be proportional to % you upkeep you go over.

    "fluff/lorewise" this makes sense. An army which is too big has a hard time feeding/sustaining itself, thus suffers certain penalties (soldiers have to spend extra energy foraging for supplies, more tensions arise within army due to cramped conditions, disease breaks out easier, desertion, it costs more to get supplies to this area etc.).

    Fur undead, they don't eat/ suffer disease, in fight etc but the necros/vamps sustaining the army can get tired or overwhelmed by sheer amount of energy / magic they have to expand to keep their army functioning etc.

    "Too big" is relative. An experienced lord in friendly terrain supported by competent aides in a well organized and technologically advanced faction can supply much larger armies than other lords in other situations etc.



  • RikisRikis Posts: 1,236Registered Users
    edited October 16
    I find that the AI has gotten better at it lately. However with that being said, an army of just black guards isn't rare even on normal difficulty. Tyrion was running around with 10 swordmasters, 5 sisters of everlorn and the rest dragons. I dont mind seeing it from time to time, from the factions leader/LL but if its just that then it gets annoying.

    Btw, I'm one of them that plays "inefficiently" because I like the sight of normal troops being the core of an army and elites actually being elites.
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