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vampire counts lord problem and how to fix it

crazyhouseTVcrazyhouseTV Posts: 16Registered Users
hi
https://youtube.com/watch?v=U8jRv5tNk7g
the vampire counts have a very big problem that most faction doesn't have there LL
are generic and flavorless in this video i am suggesting the following
the point of the video
master of the dead buff to 40M
master necromancer
add 4 bound zombie summons
add 2 bound skeleton summons
on cart (helman ghorst and master necromancer) they will get missile resistance (30%) and HP buff and maby speed buff?
helman ghorst only
+ 1 grave guard summon
+ 6 bound zombie summons
heinrich kemmler
overcast curse of years that made HP damage and armor and weapon strength debuff
raising ghost gloom summons (in short ethereal zombies) and overcast will give spirit host (if CA will introduce swarms)
bound wave of black fire
bound 4 glooms summon
bound 2 cairn wraith bound summon
@Mitch_CA to your attention keep the good work!

Comments

  • RiskafishRiskafish Posts: 465Registered Users
    I think that adding Isabella as a personal hero to Vlad would lower the lord count. Also adding Helman Ghorst to the vortex campaign and pairing him against a Bretonnian lord would also help the lord issue. This would also make Helman Ghorst more appealing and differenient him from kremmler.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Posts: 1,597Registered Users
    It won't amount to anything until they change how regeneration works, and nerf empire.
  • BoombastekBoombastek Posts: 2,038Registered Users
    edited October 15
    Vampire Counts dont had any problem with lords.

    Just use bloodline lords.

    In MP there just no better option as red duke or blood dragon. Dragon, nothing can compare.

    In SP suply lines. LL in single player pretty OK. Even Ghorst that close to useless, had not bad skills in SP.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Posts: 1,168Registered Users
    Amonkhet said:

    It won't amount to anything until they change how regeneration works, and nerf empire.

    no coast should be nerfed to high heavens and for V counts try not to fight empire
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • BoombastekBoombastek Posts: 2,038Registered Users
    edited October 15
    Amonkhet said:

    It won't amount to anything until they change how regeneration works, and nerf empire.

    Seems it is.

    All point in necromanser is aoe regen. But cap on heal is killing this option of viable. VC had a lot other tools to heal units.
  • crazyhouseTVcrazyhouseTV Posts: 16Registered Users

    Vampire Counts dont had any problem with lords.

    Just use bloodline lords.

    In MP there just no better option as red duke or blood dragon. Dragon, nothing can compare.

    In SP suply lines. LL in single player pretty OK. Even Ghorst that close to useless, had not bad skills in SP.

    you know? why to make alberic good? just use another LL
    why add DEMONS just use any orher faction
    why to updated WOC? just play norsca
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Posts: 1,168Registered Users

    Vampire Counts dont had any problem with lords.

    Just use bloodline lords.

    In MP there just no better option as red duke or blood dragon. Dragon, nothing can compare.

    In SP suply lines. LL in single player pretty OK. Even Ghorst that close to useless, had not bad skills in SP.

    you know? why to make alberic good? just use another LL
    why add DEMONS just use any orher faction
    why to updated WOC? just play norsca
    ghorst is not bad just need skill to keep hip alive if he lives he is an mortis engine plus grave guard summons plus passive buffs make him pretty op.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Posts: 1,168Registered Users
    use bats + dogs to goon out ranged play than just grind them out. u can use cav to prevent enemy cav from beating u up.
    brets only have 3LL plus a melee lord and caster lords does't have the variety of VC.
    honestly just improve your screening micro. he is not supposed to be an click and froget lord. and against ai well it will be much easier to micro because you can slow or pause the game
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Posts: 1,168Registered Users
    and don't just send your lord unsupported to battle.
    the healing cap is to prevent people from abusing healing.
    necromencer with corps cart gives other buffs as well
    use summons more effectively
    learn the roster and build armies to use your strengths as well as enemy weakness.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • SakuraHeinzSakuraHeinz Junior Member Posts: 2,240Registered Users
    edited October 15
    There is no lord problem because they said there is not a lord limit for a faction.

    edit: @OP would love to see more speed on Ghorst.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Posts: 1,168Registered Users

    There is no lord problem because they said there is not a lord limit for a faction.

    edit: @OP would love to see more speed on Ghorst.

    nah not necessary only issue they do have is krell not being a permanent for whole battle.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • SephlockSephlock Posts: 2,055Registered Users
    TBH I thought the title was referring to start positions.

    Ghorst is a nobody so they could put him wherever and say Mannfred sent him on an errand to get some Dread Saurian eggs and Bastilodon milk.
    #JusticeForUshoran #RuneGolems #RuneGuardians #ShardDragons #Thunderbarges #Stormfiends #BigMonsters #MoreDakka
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,793Registered Users
    edited October 15
    @crazyhouseTV
    Thanks for making this discussion. Some of my feedback and additions regarding general topic:


    Vigour Sources
    Give Counts Vigour sources. Not only Undead are Restless Lore wise, but also in terms of TW, their "Vigour Stats" related to animation and whole Vampire Counts existence as a force is based around resurrection and binding.
    So it's really weird and lackluster not to have Vigour Sources in both cases, especially in cases, when it's stated that source provides vigour buff and basically build around unit animation.

    I hope at one point there would be some additional Necromancy Lore integrated (would it be Arboreonecromancy or Lore of Lichemaster or just cunjuction of old and missing spells like Hellish Vigour), which is based around other Vampire Stuff, including Vigour buffs.

    As for now, I would suggest these sources to provide Vigour:
    - Vanhel's Danse Macabre
    - Master of the Dead
    - Vigour Mortis
    - I would want to suggest Magic Animus/Undeath Resurgent, but idk how it would fit as being basic thing for all races, but LD buff is a bit poor for QB MP and LD+MD is a bit poor after +10 skill points invested in SP (alternatively, in SP skill groups could be divided or skill points work differently, so you want need to spend points for skills, which you don't need)

    "Disabled if: Leadership is broken" status of abilities
    I would delete it completly from all Counts abilities and spells like IoN/Curse of the Undeath/Master of the Dead/Hunger etc.
    In SP it doesn't matter much, but in QB MP it could be quite unpleasant and one sided, plus motivates focusing. Funny thing though, is that while Counts players may suffer from that, their opponent may not even remember about this effect, since even some Counts/Coast player don't remember that some of this abilities don't work with broken LD. As result it other mildly hurts gameplay in current state, either cloging these abilities (like IoN/Curse of the Undeath may just get more fitting downsides), either hurts (like in case of Hunger/Master of the Dead).


    Invocation of Nehek buff
    Either Skills (like IoN Upgrades/Loremaster) in Campaign should increase/delete cap and improve general performance or AoE sizes or decrease price better, either it should be generally fixed properly with:
    - cap being improved to 8
    - reverted HP to 1000HP/cast
    - minus 50% Healing for Large Units
    - Balefire effect for own Army for each Large unit affected during duration of the spell


    Curse of Years Spell
    I think it should have Single target (non-overcasted) version anyway and also should deal damage, like in TT, indeed.


    "Master of the Dead Ability
    Apart from Vigour, For Necromancer Lords exclusively, I would turn it into "Grand Master of the Dead" or something like that and indeed increase AoE to at least 40m, while making it Uncommon Ability with respective price.


    Bound Summons Abilities or Summon improvements
    It's actually very interesting idea and could be alternative to buffs for Raise Dead or other form of distinction for Raise Dead (6-8 Zombies/Skeleton summons for Necromancers/Necrarchs and 2-4 Fell Bats/Dire Wolves sumomns for other Vampires).
    Idk, about numbers though atm. Seems a bit over the top even in case of Necromancer Lords, if we talk about QB MP at least. Also issue, is that I think there is "unspoken" limit for how many abilities/items each Character could have and LLs usually don't have regular items - only Legendary one. But in SP it shouldn't cause issues, sure, but there may be also limit for Active Abilities in disposal. So maybe something like dedicated army ability could work.

    Alternatively, summons could be improved to at least decent performance and become cheaper for Necromancer Lords exclusively by default both for SP/MP (though in SP Necromancer Lords/Heroes already have more advantageous and fair Raise Dead balance with "Master of the Dead" Skill).
    On top of that I would delete "Army is full" limit on Counts summons akin to Skaven.
    And if after all of these improvements, nerfs would be needed, I would go with same Balefire effect for Own Army for each summon on a own Battlefield and "Disabled if: Flying" (until Caster would land obviously).

    Atm, all Counts summons are either meh (Zombies/Varghulf/Krell), either bad (Skeleton Warriors/Ghouls/Horrors/Grave Guard/Wight King), as result they don't feel as swarmy on the battlefield as they should and their main replacement for ranged doesn't feel as fair replacement.


    Corpse Count mounts
    There are some different alternatives to it, but indeed - better missile resistance, bigger HP and maybe slightly better speed (at least for Ghorst) could improve this as a mount for Lords and Heroes. I would even say that it specifically relevant in case of Lords.


    Generic Strigoi Lord
    Idk, about how full LoV instead of mix between LoV and LoD would help him (especially in case of uniqueness). It would be more TT friendly, sure, but won't solve issues.
    Instead, I would select better spells from these Lores: for example would replace Gaze of Nagash with Macabre or WoD at least. Another alternative is to make him mix of 3 Lores, but it won't be that thematic (Bloodline Strigoi would fit better, but even him ain't that great with magic for this role of mixed Lores Caster and only Necrarchs/Lahmian/Von Carsteins/Necromancers would fit actually).

    His issues for QB MP atm are due to awful summons for big gold/WoM price without great numbers and poor Arcane like item. Also he isn't that great in melee compared to other Lods (even not that great compared to Generic Vampire Lord) for his price.
    With all that said, like most of Counts Lords he became cheaper in QB MP, so it definitely helps (though Bloodline Lords become cheaper as well, which doesn't help their distinction).

    As for Campaign - he's like most awful Caster in whole Vampire Counts roster, since you can't get proper Upgrades with him or Arcane Item and to make him good in melee you need to invest a lot in his melee skill tree.
    On top of that his upkeep is still quite high. Maybe it would be addressed later in Bloodlines DLCs to pay some justice.


    Ghorst
    There was discussion here how to improve him:
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/comment/2508170#Comment_2508170


    Henrich Kemmler
    While, I wouldn't disagree with your ideas, idk about it. Kemmler, while being indeed underaddressed in campaign as Lichemaster, especially in case of his Unique Skill Tree being solely dedicated to support of 1 summon, in QB MP probably not that bad compared to 2 other Necromancer Lord options. His Krell summon may still need some improvements, but in general, he's average and kinda competitve in certain circumstances. Of course he could be improved, but that would require cost increase in QB MP.
    Also Glooms and Spirit Host are basically same unit (maybe Glooms are upgraded or better say downgraded version). Also Spirit Host isn't Swarm in 7th Edition it seems, so from all Swarms this has best chances to be a unit on so many levels.


    Krell
    Atm whole Kemmler's Unique Skill tree related to this summon support and at least 2 Skills to its degradation, so without rework won't happen.


    Isabella
    Her item could recharge in melee, but be used for any unit, not only for Lords/Heroes. Maybe there could be cap of 4-6 charges for that.
    Another way is to bind "Guardian" effect (one with AoE protection for Lords/Heroes) to her item as passive effect.


    Generic Vampire Lord
    Both in Campaign and in QB MP he's outshined by Bloodline Lords and Necromancer Lord (campaign only). Something unique or some more cost-effective niche would be nice for him.

    Wight King/Banshee (Campaign mostly)
    While in MP Wight King got cost reduction, he still not tha versatile or good at anything. Same issue with Banshee, but she actually good at some niches, instead of being ok on average. Afterall both just cheap enough to take. But it's fine, I guess.
    In SP though Wight King niche is quite useless and he almost outshined with every other Hero. Even same Banshee fits amazing for farming Blood Kisses at least. Idk how to improve him for SP, though.

    ____________________

    P.S. While I disagree with some of your points, analytic elements or conclusions, I think that some improvements in this area would be productive or even needed indeed and not only due to overlapping or boring factor, but based on some balance and gameplay general improvements as well.
    Post edited by Elder_Moloch on
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • crazyhouseTVcrazyhouseTV Posts: 16Registered Users

    @crazyhouseTV
    Thanks for making this discussion. Some of my feedback and additions regarding general topic:


    Vigour Sources
    Give Counts Vigour sources. Not only Undead are Restless Lore wise, but also in terms of TW, their "Vigour Stats" related to animation and whole Vampire Counts existence as a force is based around resurrection.
    So it's really weird and lackluster not to have Vigour Sources in both cases, especially in cases, when it's stated that source provides vigour buff and basically build around unit animation.

    I hope at one point there would be some additional Necromancy Lore integrated (would it be Arboreonecromancy or Lore of Lichemaster or just cunjuction of old and missing spells like Hellish Vigour), which is based around other Vampire Stuff, including Vigour buffs.

    As for now, I would suggest these sources to provide Vigour:
    - Vanhel's Danse Macabre
    - Master of the Dead
    - Vigour Mortis


    "Disabled if: Leadership is broken" status of abilities
    I would delete it completly from all Counts abilities and spells like IoN/Curse of the Undeath/Master of the Dead/Hunger etc.


    Invocation of Nehek buff
    Either in campaign Skills should increase/delete cap and improve general performance or AoE sizes or decrease price better, either it should be generally fixed properly with:
    - cap being improved to 6-8
    - reverted HP to 1000HP/cast
    - minus 50% Healing for Large
    - Balefire effect for own Army for each Large unit affected during duration of the spell


    Curse of Years Spell
    I think it should have Single target (non-overcasted) version anyway and also should deal damage, like in TT, indeed.


    "Master of the Dead Ability
    Apart from Vigour, For Necromancer Lords exclusively, I would turn it into "Grand Master of the Dead" or something like that and indeed increase AoE to at least 40m, while making it Uncommon Ability with respective price.


    Bound Summons Abilities or Summon improvements
    It's actually very interesting idea and could be alternative to buffs for Raise Dead or other form of distinction for Raise Dead (6-8 Zombies/Skeleton summons for Necromancers/Necrarchs and 2-4 Fell Bats/Dire Wolves sumomns for other Vampires).
    Idk, about numbers though atm. Seems a bit over the top even in case of Necromancer Lords, if we talk about QB MP at least. Also issue, is that I think there is "unspoken" limit for how many abilities/items each Character could have and LLs usually don't have regular items - only Legendary one. But in SP it shouldn't cause issues, sure, but there may be also limit for Active Abilities in disposal. So maybe something like dedicated army ability could work.
    Alternatively, summons could be improved to at least decent performance and become cheaper for Necromancer Lords exclusively.


    Corpse Count mounts
    There are some different alternatives to it, but indeed - better missile resistance, bigger HP and maybe slightly better speed (at least for Ghorst) could improve this as a mount for Lords and Heroes. I would even say that it specifically relevant in case of Lords.


    Generic Strigoi Lord
    Idk, about how full LoV instead of mix between LoV and LoD would help him (especially in case of uniqueness). It would be more TT friendly, sure, but won't solve issues.
    Instead, I would select better spells from these Lores: for example would replace Gaze of Nagash with Macabre or WoD at least. Another alternative is to make him mix of 3 Lores, but it won't be that thematic (Bloodline Strigoi would fit better, but even him ain't that great with magic for this role of mixed Lores Caster and only Necrarchs/Lahmian/Von Carsteins/Necromancers would fit actually).

    His issues for QB MP atm are due to awful summons for big gold/WoM price without great numbers and poor Arcane like item. Also he isn't that great in melee compared to other Lods (even not that great compared to Generic Vampire Lord) for his price.

    As for Campaign - he's like most awful Caster in whole Vampire Counts roster, since you can't get proper Upgrades with him or Acane Item and to make him good in melee you need to invest a lot in his melee skill tree.
    On top of that his upkeep is still quite high. Maybe it would be addressed later in Bloodlines DLCs to pay some justice.


    Ghorst
    There was discussion here how to improve him:
    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/comment/2508170#Comment_2508170


    Henrich Kemmler
    While, I wouldn't disagree with your ideas, idk about it. Kemmler, while being indeed underaddressed in campaign as Lichemaster, especially in case of his Unique Skill Tree being solely dedicated to support of 1 summon, in QB MP probably not that bad compared to 2 other Necromancer Lord options. His Krell summon may still need some improvements, but in general, he's average and kinda competitve in certain circumstances. Of course he could be improved, but that would require cost increase in QB MP.
    Also Glooms and Spirit Host are basically same unit (maybe Glooms are upgraded or better say downgraded version). Also Spirit Host isn't Swarm in 7th Edition it seems, so from all Swarms this has best chances to be a unit on so many levels.


    Krell
    Atm whole Kemmler's Unique Skill tree related to this summon support and at least 2 Skills to its degradation, so without rework won't happen.


    Isabella
    Her item could recharge in melee, but be used for any unit, not only for Lords/Heroes. Maybe there could be cap of 4-6 charges for that.
    Another way is to bind "Guardian" effect (one with AoE protection for Lords/Heroes) to her item as passive effect.


    Generic Vampire Lord
    Both in Campaign and in QB MP he's outshined by Bloodline Lords and Necromancer Lord (campaign only). Something unique or some more cost-effective niche would be nice for him.

    ____________________

    P.S. While I disagree with some of your points, analytic elements or conclusions, I think that some improvements in this area would be productive or even needed indeed and not only due to overlapping or boring factor, but based on some balance and gameplay general improvements as well.

    whoooooooooooooo
    this one is deep and was good reading you have an intersting take on the situation vigor reletad stuff (vigur is underrated as hell!)
    abut the spells
    (i hear about lore of undeath you know somthing abut it?)
    i see you are an vempire fan from TT
    i would like if you could describe to me how to you opinion spirit host or glooms culd work ?
    or the carin weight missing hero?
    you have oobsession to ethereal units too or i am the only one?
  • Elder_MolochElder_Moloch Posts: 1,793Registered Users


    whoooooooooooooo
    this one is deep and was good reading you have an intersting take on the situation vigor reletad stuff (vigur is underrated as hell!)
    abut the spells
    (i hear about lore of undeath you know somthing abut it?)
    i see you are an vempire fan from TT
    i would like if you could describe to me how to you opinion spirit host or glooms culd work ?
    or the carin weight missing hero?
    you have oobsession to ethereal units too or i am the only one?

    Thanks for kind words.
    I edited a bit to elaborate a bit more on some aspects and added Wight King/Banshee as units with some nuanced issues (at least in case of Wight King and at least in SP).

    The only thing I read about "Lore of the Undeath" is that it basically whole Lore dedicated to Summoning stuff from End Times Armybook.
    There was also Lore of Necromancy/Undead Magic in 5th and older editions.
    Both or both merged into one, I assume would belong to Nagash Legions, if those would be implemented.
    I assume Counts and maybe Tomb Kings could also have access, though it would be preferable through Nagash Legions roster or being related to/defeating Nagash in SP. Idk about Custom/QB MP.
    Idk, about access for others, since as far as I understood, Lore of the Undeath was a common Lore and basically everyone could use it, apart from Dwarfs, which sound really unfitting for everyone envolved.

    I'm not a Vampire Fan from TT, but more like returned Vampire/Undead fan in general, thanks to CA Devs. Before CA Devs didn't make TW:WH, I had mild knowledge about WHFB and was even more informed about 40k back then, to the point that I didn't even know that there are Undead like Nagash Legions/Vampire Counts. Heard only about Tomb Kings.

    I honestly see Glooms as just another version of Spirit Host at best (or even just differently named weaker/cheaper Spirit Host at worst). Both basically Spirit Fodder.
    - Spirit Host is Mid-Tier priced Ethereal Meatshields, which aren't good in terms of Damage, but good with holding lines and occupying units - numerous, fast for infantry, but not a killing power on their own even vs Infantry.
    - Glooms are cheaper and weaker version of Spirit Host with few special rules (Tormented - they still have their own will power, so probably have better animation, but its harder to control them; Spirit Levy - LD more dependant from model presented/lost for this unit)

    Cairn Wraith Hero
    Basically Banshee (maybe a bit weaker LD and slower, but better Damage/Attack/Attack Speed), but with AoE orientation, instead of Duelist orientation.
    Could have Ethereal Steed Mount from 6th Edition (similar to Hexwraiths).
    Could have Black Coach Mount from Warmaster (similar to Black Coach).
    Idk, about Chill Grasp (Banshee's Howl wasn't integrated as ability, but only as animation and Chill Grasp weren't added to Cairn Wraith Unit as well).

    No obsession, but I like them, if that's what you mean. I also think that atm, Ethereal roster for Counts is a bit lackluster and Ethereal Units are kinda undepresented for Undead in general (though Coast improved this situation quite a bit, but made it more weird in case of lackluster Counts army roster).
    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

  • SephlockSephlock Posts: 2,055Registered Users
    Also, could we get Ghorst some real poison? Khalida has been giving him the side-eye for his weaksauce poison effect for some time now.

    And maybe a different start position- say, down south?

    P.S. Crypt Horrors need a buff, badly.
    #JusticeForUshoran #RuneGolems #RuneGuardians #ShardDragons #Thunderbarges #Stormfiends #BigMonsters #MoreDakka
  • crazyhouseTVcrazyhouseTV Posts: 16Registered Users
    Sephlock said:

    Also, could we get Ghorst some real poison? Khalida has been giving him the side-eye for his weaksauce poison effect for some time now.

    And maybe a different start position- say, down south?

    P.S. Crypt Horrors need a buff, badly.

    start position to Ghorst is an hard one
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