How many Ogres would be in a Single unit since they are monsters infantry ?

xXF1aKOXx · October 2019

I feel like 32 Ogres in a unit sounds reasonable

What do you think?

Vanilla_Gorilla · October 2019

Cavalry numbers hopefully. 30 in a unit.

Rikis · October 2019

Depends how "big" they end up being. Could be kroxigor level monstrous infantry with equivalent numbers.

Although cavalry levels sounds good to me.

OdTengri · October 2019

Yeah.... considering how comparatively low quality basic Ogres are in comparison to most monstrous infantry they probably should come in larger numbers than most.

I mean they are probably going to get shrecked by range with 30 or so armor and maybe a bronze shield.

Either way I'm sure they'll be fairly well balanced when released.

ArneSo · October 2019

We already have an undead version of Ogres in the Vampire Coast roster.

Normal Ogres will probably have the same unit size

Arsenic · October 2019

Animated Hulks are Ogre corpses with bits and bobs stitched on, so I'll go with how many are in one of their units, 12.

Red_Dox · October 2019

Just look up which numbers the different monstrous infantry units of all the current races have (Ushabti, Trolls, Minotaurs, etc.) and the Ogre unit number should be in between. Depending of what Ogre regiment we are talking. I can see the standard Ogres having more Ogres then for example a unit of Maneaters.

------Red Dox

Arcani_4_Ever · October 2019

They shouldn't be proper Monstrous Infantry and get 16 units at Ultra Sizes, would make them incredibly weak to missiles.

32 Units at Ultra Sizes is the best solution here. It means 24 units at Very Large, 18 at Normal. Etc.

yolordmcswag · October 2019

I think pretty much anything that was monstrous infantry on TT have 16 per unit on ultra unit size. With monstrous cavalry it is much more varying though, 36 for demigryphs, 24 for pegasus knights etc.

I can see basic ogres and maybe Ironguts having a slightly bigger size, but I doubt above 24 on Ultra. Their elites and specialist troops like leadbelchers and Maneaters certainly should not be above 16. Maneaters were on par with minoutars in TT.

Vanilla_Gorilla · October 2019

yolordmcswag said:
I think pretty much anything that was monstrous infantry on TT have 16 per unit on ultra unit size. With monstrous cavalry it is much more varying though, 36 for demigryphs, 24 for pegasus knights etc.

I can see basic ogres and maybe Ironguts having a slightly bigger size, but I doubt above 24 on Ultra. Their elites and specialist troops like leadbelchers and Maneaters certainly should not be above 16. Maneaters were on par with minoutars in TT.

Maneaters were far superior to Minotaurs.

CA's been playing around with unit size quite a bit lately. While the normal unit size for Maneaters makes sense for bulls not so much. They'd be better served with a larger unit size. Happily this would help differentiate them from the more elite ogres making the latter less of a straight upgrade.

yolordmcswag · October 2019

Vanilla_Gorilla said:

yolordmcswag said:
I think pretty much anything that was monstrous infantry on TT have 16 per unit on ultra unit size. With monstrous cavalry it is much more varying though, 36 for demigryphs, 24 for pegasus knights etc.

I can see basic ogres and maybe Ironguts having a slightly bigger size, but I doubt above 24 on Ultra. Their elites and specialist troops like leadbelchers and Maneaters certainly should not be above 16. Maneaters were on par with minoutars in TT.
Maneaters were far superior to Minotaurs.

CA's been playing around with unit size quite a bit lately. While the normal unit size for Maneaters makes sense for bulls not so much. They'd be better served with a larger unit size. Happily this would help differentiate them from the more elite ogres making the latter less of a straight upgrade.

They were slightly better, but pretty similiar. Both had the same stats, Minotaurs had more impact hits, but Maneaters could get them at a higher stregth. Minoraurs had bloodgreed, while Maneaters could pick 2 special rules from a list. Maneaters could have ranged weapons, but their options for melee weapons were similiar. Overall Maneaters were more versatile, while minotaurs were slightly better as a melee shock unit. "Far superior" is simply not true.

As for unit size, It would be nice to have big units, but at the same time I don't want them to make the basic ogres weak to compensate for the smaller unit size. And if normal ogres had even larger units with normal monstrous infantry, it might be too strong. Especially since the basic ogres could not be higher than tier 1 or 2 in terms of buildings.

Crossil · October 2019

I too think that cavalry size, 30 or so, is needed. An annoying feature of TWW is that units that come in numbers higher than 1 don't have their health recorded after battles. So if you have a unit of four chariots that ends the battle at low HP but with all 4 models alive they have perfect health after it ends. Same goes for all units and it's especially noticeable to me with, for instance, Fimir who rarely lose a model despite falling under half, even down to a quarter, of HP and end up fully healed.

So to simulate realistic loses I think the basic Ogres should be in somewhat larger numbers, 20-30 per unit.

Riskafish · October 2019

Ogre Bulls cost about 30 points while Empire state troops cost about 8ish. I think that 30 Ogres scaled against 120 swordsmen would be logical.

Red_Dox · October 2019

yolordmcswag said:

Vanilla_Gorilla said:

yolordmcswag said:
I think pretty much anything that was monstrous infantry on TT have 16 per unit on ultra unit size. With monstrous cavalry it is much more varying though, 36 for demigryphs, 24 for pegasus knights etc.

I can see basic ogres and maybe Ironguts having a slightly bigger size, but I doubt above 24 on Ultra. Their elites and specialist troops like leadbelchers and Maneaters certainly should not be above 16. Maneaters were on par with minoutars in TT.
Maneaters were far superior to Minotaurs.

CA's been playing around with unit size quite a bit lately. While the normal unit size for Maneaters makes sense for bulls not so much. They'd be better served with a larger unit size. Happily this would help differentiate them from the more elite ogres making the latter less of a straight upgrade.
They were slightly better, but pretty similiar. Both had the same stats, Minotaurs had more impact hits, but Maneaters could get them at a higher stregth. Minoraurs had bloodgreed, while Maneaters could pick 2 special rules from a list. Maneaters could have ranged weapons, but their options for melee weapons were similiar. Overall Maneaters were more versatile, while minotaurs were slightly better as a melee shock unit. "Far superior" is simply not true.

Maneasters have one more attack in the profile.
While both start with light armor, Maneaters could upgrade to heavy armor.
Maneaters had Ballistic Skill 4, which was extremly good...
...while you really undersell the point that the Maneaters had the option to pick up a brace of pistols. Which other races would define as rifles ^^
And for winning the prizemoney: a unit got two special rules for free(!), which could not duplicate the same rule for different units of Maneaters. But it is fine, because you just gave the one costly unit you had Poison Attacks (melee and pistols!) and made them Scouts to show up in the enemy starting zone after everyone had finished setting up the army!

Sure, they cost more at the end then your Minotaurs, but they were worth it. And yes, "Far superior" is true.
They would threaten an enemy from turn one and were so ridiculous overpowered with 5 melee poison attacks per Ogre and the stand and shoot option with the pistols if getting attacked, that they could do tremendous dmg before being stopped. If stopped at all, since a 24" shooting range gave them the option to harass your warmachines with shooting while not coming near enough to anything that could actually do real dmg to them. And while your Whatever Unit that could actually dmg them has to try and catch them or at least keep them at bay, it was missing from the real frontline where the Irongut doomstack was approaching. Or the equally devestating Mournfang cavalry.
I have used Maneaters myself and have encountered them a few times as enemies and they always were one of the most fearful and disgusting minmaxed things I could witness on the TT battlefield.

------Red Dox

Sultschiem · October 2019

Well, there are solutions:

Make basic ogres as big as saurus...."they are the younger ones" and the more elite ones are the adult ones.

Tennisgolfboll · October 2019

30 on ultra size

Ol_Nessie · October 2019

If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
Yhetees- 16
Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry

Tennisgolfboll · October 2019

Ol_Nessie said:
If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
Yhetees- 16
Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry

I dont see ogre bulls as tier 1 or 2 but tier 3. Id like to see a unit of ogre bulls come in at 1200

Sultschiem · October 2019

Tennisgolfboll said:

Ol_Nessie said:
If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
Yhetees- 16
Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry
I dont see ogre bulls as tier 1 or 2 but tier 3. Id like to see a unit of ogre bulls come in at 1200

If Ogre bulls are tier 4....it won`t be "ogre kingdoms"...It will be the "Gnoblar Kingdoms" as they and sabretusks would be the only units for tier 1-3....

Ogre Bulls AND Ironguts are both "Core Units" alongside Gnoblars....yes they are much more expensive there, but given the game....

Ogre bulls have little armor and no shield.... they will be super vulnerable to any form of missiles.
Even Ironguts will be vulnerable.....

Ogre Bulls and Ironguts should be treated similar to the skeleton chariots for tomb kings compared to all other chariots....

Tennisgolfboll · October 2019

Sultschiem said:

Tennisgolfboll said:

Ol_Nessie said:
If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
Yhetees- 16
Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry
I dont see ogre bulls as tier 1 or 2 but tier 3. Id like to see a unit of ogre bulls come in at 1200
If Ogre bulls are tier 4....it won`t be "ogre kingdoms"...It will be the "Gnoblar Kingdoms" as they and sabretusks would be the only units for tier 1-3....

Ogre Bulls AND Ironguts are both "Core Units" alongside Gnoblars....yes they are much more expensive there, but given the game....

Ogre bulls have little armor and no shield.... they will be super vulnerable to any form of missiles.
Even Ironguts will be vulnerable.....

Ogre Bulls and Ironguts should be treated similar to the skeleton chariots for tomb kings compared to all other chariots....

I said tier 3 not 4.

And you reach tier 3 in like 15 turns. Agree with low armor and no shield but high hp.

Ol_Nessie · October 2019

Tennisgolfboll said:

Sultschiem said:

Tennisgolfboll said:

Ol_Nessie said:
If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
Yhetees- 16
Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry
I dont see ogre bulls as tier 1 or 2 but tier 3. Id like to see a unit of ogre bulls come in at 1200
If Ogre bulls are tier 4....it won`t be "ogre kingdoms"...It will be the "Gnoblar Kingdoms" as they and sabretusks would be the only units for tier 1-3....

Ogre Bulls AND Ironguts are both "Core Units" alongside Gnoblars....yes they are much more expensive there, but given the game....

Ogre bulls have little armor and no shield.... they will be super vulnerable to any form of missiles.
Even Ironguts will be vulnerable.....

Ogre Bulls and Ironguts should be treated similar to the skeleton chariots for tomb kings compared to all other chariots....
I said tier 3 not 4.

And you reach tier 3 in like 15 turns. Agree with low armor and no shield but high hp.

Even tier 3 is too high in my opinion. If you can't recruit Ogre Bulls from Turn 1, I think you're doing it wrong.

Tennisgolfboll · October 2019

Ol_Nessie said:

Tennisgolfboll said:

Sultschiem said:

Tennisgolfboll said:

Ol_Nessie said:
If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
Yhetees- 16
Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry
I dont see ogre bulls as tier 1 or 2 but tier 3. Id like to see a unit of ogre bulls come in at 1200
If Ogre bulls are tier 4....it won`t be "ogre kingdoms"...It will be the "Gnoblar Kingdoms" as they and sabretusks would be the only units for tier 1-3....

Ogre Bulls AND Ironguts are both "Core Units" alongside Gnoblars....yes they are much more expensive there, but given the game....

Ogre bulls have little armor and no shield.... they will be super vulnerable to any form of missiles.
Even Ironguts will be vulnerable.....

Ogre Bulls and Ironguts should be treated similar to the skeleton chariots for tomb kings compared to all other chariots....
I said tier 3 not 4.

And you reach tier 3 in like 15 turns. Agree with low armor and no shield but high hp.
Even tier 3 is too high in my opinion. If you can't recruit Ogre Bulls from Turn 1, I think you're doing it wrong.

I think, whatever happens, CA will do a great job. They did so for all game 2 races.

Chaos dwarfs will also be interesting to see.

Vanilla_Gorilla · October 2019

Thanks @Red_Dox for proving that better than I ever could.

Ol_Nessie said:
If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
Yhetees- 16
Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry

Have you heard about Salamanders?

I do like those sizes though. I'd also have bulls as T2.

Ol_Nessie · October 2019

Vanilla_Gorilla said:
Thanks @Red_Dox for proving that better than I ever could.

Ol_Nessie said:
If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
Yhetees- 16
Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry
Have you heard about Salamanders?

I do like those sizes though. I'd also have bulls as T2.

Regarding Salamanders, CA did my bois dirty. One Salamander in TW has about a quarter of the health and deal about a third less damage than they should have if they were being faithful to the TT. Compare the Salamander and Kroxigor TT stat lines for reference. I expected them to come in Great Bow Ushabti or Rotting Promethean sized units (12 on Ultra), sort of filling the ranged monstrous infantry role.

So if you want Ogres to come in 30+ entity units, just understand that a TW Ogre is going to be nowhere near the level of a TT Ogre.

Vanilla_Gorilla · October 2019

Ol_Nessie said:

Vanilla_Gorilla said:
Thanks @Red_Dox for proving that better than I ever could.

Ol_Nessie said:
If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
Yhetees- 16
Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry
Have you heard about Salamanders?

I do like those sizes though. I'd also have bulls as T2.
Regarding Salamanders, CA did my bois dirty. One Salamander in TW has about a quarter of the health and deal about a third less damage than they should have if they were being faithful to the TT. Compare the Salamander and Kroxigor TT stat lines for reference. I expected them to come in Great Bow Ushabti or Rotting Promethean sized units (12 on Ultra), sort of filling the ranged monstrous infantry role.

So if you want Ogres to come in 30+ entity units, just understand that a TW Ogre is going to be nowhere near the level of a TT Ogre.

Of course. I Just know how you feel about them.

Bulls at 24 and elites at 12 works for me.

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How many Ogres would be in a Single unit since they are monsters infantry ?

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