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Anethra Helbane > Rakarth

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  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Posts: 1,567Registered Users

    Once it was revealed we were getting more lord packs possibly no faction provoked more intense speculation than the Dark Elves. A lot of their remaining characters were bland hero versions of units (Tullaris for the Executioners, Kouran for the Black Guard, etc) while the most prominent 8th edition character remaining, Malus Darkblade, has provoked something of a partisan firestorm on the forum, with people either loving or hating him.

    Because the remaining Dark Elf units are beast-hunting or monster related, one character a lot of people seized on was Rakarth, a named Beastmaster character from the 5th edition. He's quickly become the preferred alternative for people who dislike Malus. There is, however, another option:



    Anethra Helbane and her family were prominently featured in the 7th edition. They only existed as background lore characters, to help display the nature of Dark Elf politics and ruling families, but as a result got a fair amount of text about Anethra herself, as well as her husband and his ambitions, and her family's chief enforcer.

    The Helbanes are the ruling family of Clar Karond, AKA the city of the beastmasters. The following is from 8th Edition:

    Clar Karond is also famed for its Beastmasters. It was here, many long centuries ago, that the knights of Hag Graef bought the first Cold Ones to be broken, and much later, that the ferocious Kharibdyss of the deeps were bent to the Dark Elves' will. Now, Manticore pens, Harpy cages and other enclosures are as common in Clar Karond as the temples of Khaine. Both are outnumbered by the pelt-draped shrines of Anath Raema, for the goddess of the savage hunt has ever been the patron of Beastmasters. Thus, when the armies of Clar Karond go to war, they do so in Anath Raema's name, driving her savage children before them to break the enemy lines with tooth and claw.


    Rakarth may be the best Beastmaster in Naggarond, but Anethra pays the Beastmasters' checks. One might argue that Rakarth gets the nod since he actually has rules, even if they are from 5th edition, but the inclusion of Nakai shows that CA doesn't always rank that as a priority.

    Anethra has the beastmaster theme as the leader of Clar Karond. She's a sorceress and the Dark Elves only have one pure caster lord so far while they already have multiple melee lords on dragons, which is what Rakarth would be. Give her the Lore of Beasts and she offers a more buff-focused caster than Morathi, plus it fits with the Clar Karond theme. As a sorceress formerly from Morathi's cult she also has a stronger claim to controlling the Bloodwrack Medusae than Rakarth, given the MEdusae are former sorceresses who served Morathi and wer not buffed by Beastmasters. The Helbane family also has more lore for CA to draw on, as Rakarth only had a couple of paragraphs but the Helbanes have multiple character profiles to mine for fluff. CA also likes adding more female characters when they can.

    Point is, if CA really wants a Beastmaster themed LL I think they're more likely to go with Anethra than Rakarth. That said, I actually think we're probably going to get Malus, and not either of these Beast-focused characters. But if CA was going to go this route? I'd put my money on Anethra first.
    She seems lame compared to Rakath and is just gonna feel like an OC version of Morathi.
  • ViroshVirosh Posts: 30Registered Users
    To be honest, I'll be happy to have a druchii caster LL that does not spread Chaos corruption (God, I hate chaos and vampiric corruption mechanics; Skaven one is way superior in gameplay terms and lore execution in my opinion), though unfortunately Morathi is already filling the role of Caster LL in MP.

    Then again: CA are liking their little surprises, we might as well get Anethra or Shadowblade as LL, who knows?

    Eh, I guess we'll know soon enough!
  • Unknown6203Unknown6203 Posts: 913Registered Users
    The only thing that worries me Draculasaurus, is the location of Dark Elves Lord, i think most likely Dark Elves will have only 5 LL's.

    Rakarth and her are both placed smack dab in the middle of 3 other Dark Elves factions, i for one i am tired of the Dark Elves on Nagaroth their campaign goes as follows80-100 turn in a Dark Elves Civil war then The Invasion of Ulthuan after that is cakewalk from there.

    So the questions is were can we place the next Dark Elves lord?? i have no idea so far.
  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 4,932Registered Users
    edited October 18

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Crossil said:

    Well I'm not convinced. While she rules Clar Karond she'd sooner have a focus on politics than Beasts. The faction might have some focus on beasts but the leader wouldn't. Also, Clar Karond is primarily the shipyard of Naggaroth, while it does have large contingent of Beastmasters so does Karond Kar(Contest of Claws and Beastmaster entry in 8th ed.). Her character isn't really established with the city she rules but with Rakarth it's clear what he is.

    Another thing, you could say that Nakai and Wulfhart(and Alberic even) showed the supposed amount of lore isn't the thing that necessarily determines which character will come as both of them don't really have much to work with. In fact, the little lore Wulfhart had firmly set him in Drakwald but he's waltzing in Lustria now.

    Medusae are fallen but their summoning doesn't require sorceresses intervention. And it honestly doesn't feel like Anethra has any strong connection to the Beastmasters other than ruling a city that has large number of them.

    And if Lokhir showed anything mount options are really something CA doesn't care about. In fact I would argue CA could switch Lokhir's mount with a Hydra if it really hurts. Or give Rakarth more mount options other than his Dragon.

    Look at it this way. Rakarth is a Beastmaster. Anethra is a politician, a sorceress, and the ruler of a city with a major beastmaster focus. He's got one aspect, she's got multiple ones, and I think CA would view that as something in her favor, as it doesn't pigeonhole them. They can give her and her faction the beast/monster focus while also having the flexibility to incorporate skills and mechanics that reflect other aspects of her character.
    And they can expand underdeveloped characters to the point that more is done with them than what was. I would say they did that with Lokhir, at least.

    Pigeonholed, eh? Markus is a hunter, that's it. Markus's Hunters were just special Hunter unit that is now RPG elements with characters from different races. Supply system is completely invented.

    I think they can work on any character they choose so it makes sense to work a character that was at least somewhat worked on.

    If you want to talk lore then what lore did Nakai and Alberic have? That hole is what allows CA to invent, Anethra is the pigeonholed one in this case. But I think it's whatever as far as lore to game conversion goes.
    What exactly do you think is the argument for Rakarth, instead of Helbane?
    That he is an actual beastlord rather than a politician.
    Does he have anything else going for him?
    You know, that's now just a BS line of questioning.

    Does he need anything more? NO! You can ask the same about Malekith or any character. So he's the ruler of the Druchii. Does he have anything else going for him? Karl Franz, he's the emperor, does he have anything else going for him? Thorgrim. So he's the king of the Dwarfs, does he have anything else going for him?

    You can ask "but why?" after every single explanation, doesn't mean you're actually making any sort of point.
    It was largely a rhetorical question, because I wasn't being serious and didn't consider Crossil's answer super substantive.

    Here's the thing. If CA came out with a Lord Pack that included Anethra as a lore of beasts caster, with Beastmaster lords (or heroes), Medusae, and Scourgerunners, it would be 100% loreful and grounded in the 7th edition. The best rationale you two have provided for why CA should unearth this old 5th edition character is that he had a model and rules, things they clearly did not care about for Nakai or most of the Vampire Coast characters, who had neither tabletop models or tabletop rules and CA had to invent most of their unique items.
    Unique items like the Slann Gold that's listed in equipment section of VP list in WD, Moondial that was Noctilus's downfall and Aranessa spear/halberd(?). Cylostra is the only one that got an item that didn't exist. I guess Nakai's Ogham shard is also technically new.

    Besides, Anethra isn't stated to be the ruler of Clar Karond, it says she had a large influence on its development not that she's the ruler.

    And technically Rakarth is in 6th ed. He's in the same situation as Kouran, Shadowblade and Tullaris as far as relevance goes in 6th ed.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • Unknown6203Unknown6203 Posts: 913Registered Users

    I like Generic but Rakarth is simply the better DLC choice.

    A politician doesn't really make sense when they can have a Beastmaster LL for a n LP with monsters and monster tamers.

    hey Vanilla_Gorilla, but there one thing we are overlooking... Rakarth looks way to much like Malekith


    Malekith


    Rakarth


    Both are like black Knight whit no visible face. unless they go whit another model.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,464Registered Users
    Anethera Helbane is even more of a WHO than Rakarth, she would be basically a stock sorcereress that we already have a LL version of in Morathi. Id rather a LL version of a Lord type we don't even have yet.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 4,932Registered Users
    edited October 18
    Actually, looking at 7th edition it was only in 8th edition that Clar Karond was given Beastmasters. So making her focused on beasts and beastmasters wouldn't be based in 7th ed lore because Clar Karond didn't have Beastmasters in 7th ed.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,464Registered Users
    Crossil said:

    Actually, looking at 7th edition it was only in 8th edition that Clar Karond was given Beastmasters. So making her focused on beasts and beastmasters wouldn't be based in 7th ed lore because Clar Karond didn't have Beastmasters in 7th ed.

    Lol... Love it. @Crossil for the win.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Posts: 1,192Registered Users
    To anyone saying Anethra is just another sorceress lord like Morathi, remember that Rakarth is just another melee dragon lord like Malekith and Lokhir. "But he would buff monsters!" Well, so would Anethra apparently. As for lore relevance, I consider both complete nobodies compared to the 8th edition characters. And if they do pick a nobody, I hope it's Mengil Mandhide as he would be a ranged lord and bring something new.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,821Registered Users

    I like Generic but Rakarth is simply the better DLC choice.

    A politician doesn't really make sense when they can have a Beastmaster LL for a n LP with monsters and monster tamers.

    hey Vanilla_Gorilla, but there one thing we are overlooking... Rakarth looks way to much like Malekith


    Malekith


    Rakarth


    Both are like black Knight whit no visible face. unless they go whit another model.
    They can go with whichever model works best. Or y'know, be Creative and alter his costume.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,113Registered Users

    To anyone saying Anethra is just another sorceress lord like Morathi, remember that Rakarth is just another melee dragon lord like Malekith and Lokhir. "But he would buff monsters!" Well, so would Anethra apparently. As for lore relevance, I consider both complete nobodies compared to the 8th edition characters. And if they do pick a nobody, I hope it's Mengil Mandhide as he would be a ranged lord and bring something new.

    Rakarth :

    Model, rules, item, title

    Anethra:

    Nothing
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,464Registered Users

    To anyone saying Anethra is just another sorceress lord like Morathi, remember that Rakarth is just another melee dragon lord like Malekith and Lokhir. "But he would buff monsters!" Well, so would Anethra apparently. As for lore relevance, I consider both complete nobodies compared to the 8th edition characters. And if they do pick a nobody, I hope it's Mengil Mandhide as he would be a ranged lord and bring something new.

    Reducing Rakarth to his mount choice is stupid.... I won't always take him on his Dragon Mount. The most different thing about him is that hes a beast lord. He'll probably be anti-large, he'll probably be more of a support, he'll probably be able to take a scourge runner chariot as a mount.

    What your saying comes across as.

    Why does the empire need an Arch Lector Lord, we already have a General of the Empire. They're both Melee Lords.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Posts: 1,192Registered Users
    OdTengri said:

    To anyone saying Anethra is just another sorceress lord like Morathi, remember that Rakarth is just another melee dragon lord like Malekith and Lokhir. "But he would buff monsters!" Well, so would Anethra apparently. As for lore relevance, I consider both complete nobodies compared to the 8th edition characters. And if they do pick a nobody, I hope it's Mengil Mandhide as he would be a ranged lord and bring something new.

    Reducing Rakarth to his mount choice is stupid.... I won't always take him on his Dragon Mount. The most different thing about him is that hes a beast lord. He'll probably be anti-large, he'll probably be more of a support, he'll probably be able to take a scourge runner chariot as a mount.

    What your saying comes across as.

    Why does the empire need an Arch Lector Lord, we already have a General of the Empire. They're both Melee Lords.
    You already reduced Anethra to a "stock sorceress" earlier in this thread, and if so then Rakarth is just a melee lord on a dragon. I'm not saying we don't need Rakarth, I'm saying that he is not more unique than Anethra Helbane. I wasn't arguing that Rakarth is bad, I was arguing that he is not better than Helbane in terms of bringing something new to battles. Teclis and Alarielle are great examples of two pure caster lords who are very different from each other, so worrying that Anethra is identical to Morathi is unfounded IMO.

    You're saying he will propably be more of a support, but the rules he does have makes him a pure melee fighter. His main distinction was that he could take control of enemy monsters in battle, but I doubt the engine allows for units to change sides. Of course, CA could give him lots of mechanics, but they would be invented. And if stuff invented by CA goes, then the same can be done for Anethra.

    To anyone saying Anethra is just another sorceress lord like Morathi, remember that Rakarth is just another melee dragon lord like Malekith and Lokhir. "But he would buff monsters!" Well, so would Anethra apparently. As for lore relevance, I consider both complete nobodies compared to the 8th edition characters. And if they do pick a nobody, I hope it's Mengil Mandhide as he would be a ranged lord and bring something new.

    Rakarth :

    Model, rules, item, title

    Anethra:

    Nothing
    His rules are from before the 6th ed armybook, Anethra is closer to present in armybook presence. Anethra Helbane has a title too, all dark elf last names are titles if you didn't know. It's why they have a "name of power" mechanic, Helbane is just as much a title as "the beastlord".

    All in all though they are both nobodies, I find Rakarth more likely, but I don't see him as a better or more unique option.
  • SephlockSephlock Posts: 1,992Registered Users
    That hair is very 80's.

    And that face is crying out for a CA rendition.
    #JusticeForUshoran #RuneGolems #RuneGuardians #ShardDragons #Thunderbarges #Stormfiends #BigMonsters #MoreDakka
  • Arcani_4_EverArcani_4_Ever Junior Member Posts: 2,323Registered Users
    This won't work.

    Its like asking for Finubar to be the Main LL of the High Elves instead of Tyrion.

    Or asking for the respective Lords of Decay to be the LL of their respective Clans.

    Sometimes the backer takes a behind the scenes role. Specially in Warhammer.

    Hell if the LLs for Daemons of Chaos were the actual Gods it would be OP. Hence why they leave things to their right hand Greater Deamons.
  • LordTorquemadoLordTorquemado Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    Malus > Kouran > Tullaris > Rakarth
    "You stumble about in darkness. There is no light here, no mercy. Naggarond has claimed the souls of better heroes than you."
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,821Registered Users
    Rakarth has a model, rules, and fits this pack perfectly.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • LabriaLabria Posts: 574Registered Users
    edited October 19
    We have still four potential missing legendary lords from 8th edition(Malus, Kouran, Tullaris and Shadowblade). If they can make Tiktaq'to to Legendary Lord, I don't see any problem with these four guys.
    Why CA should choose first Anethra or Rakarth? 8th edition > older editions.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,821Registered Users
    Labria said:

    We have still four potential missing legendary lords from 8th edition(Malus, Kouran, Tullaris and Shadowblade). If they can make Tiktaq'to to Legendary Lord, I don't see any problem with these four guys.
    Why CA should choose first Anethra or Rakarth? 8th edition > older editions.

    Two are subjects of existing LL, the other is a named assassin, exactly the type to not want to lead an army.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian Posts: 418Registered Users
    TTT is also a subject of an existing lord, Mazdamundi. So it's not really relevant in this never ending argument.
  • LabriaLabria Posts: 574Registered Users

    Labria said:

    We have still four potential missing legendary lords from 8th edition(Malus, Kouran, Tullaris and Shadowblade). If they can make Tiktaq'to to Legendary Lord, I don't see any problem with these four guys.
    Why CA should choose first Anethra or Rakarth? 8th edition > older editions.

    Two are subjects of existing LL, the other is a named assassin, exactly the type to not want to lead an army.
    And? Kouran or Tullaris can be sent on a mission far from home like Tiktaq'to.
    Shadowblade's campaing can be very interesting with horde system and focus to killing characters from Vortex's cutscenes for Dark Elves.

    Malus is just generic for you. But Malakith's clone from 5th edtion is better?
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 21,113Registered Users
    Shadowblade is involved with the Vortex plot, he can't be running around on the map.

    Tullaris and Kouran don't add anything that Rakarth would since they're just bog-standard lords.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,821Registered Users
    Labria said:

    Labria said:

    We have still four potential missing legendary lords from 8th edition(Malus, Kouran, Tullaris and Shadowblade). If they can make Tiktaq'to to Legendary Lord, I don't see any problem with these four guys.
    Why CA should choose first Anethra or Rakarth? 8th edition > older editions.

    Two are subjects of existing LL, the other is a named assassin, exactly the type to not want to lead an army.
    And? Kouran or Tullaris can be sent on a mission far from home like Tiktaq'to.
    Shadowblade's campaing can be very interesting with horde system and focus to killing characters from Vortex's cutscenes for Dark Elves.

    Malus is just generic for you. But Malakith's clone from 5th edtion is better?
    Beastie Boy works well with the LP units. Neither underling offers that. Generic's focused on himself so makes ideal FLC or DLC if CA think it'll sell more.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • brago90brago90 Posts: 350Registered Users
    Personally I prefer Rakath and he is a character that interests me a lot since I started researching the dark elves when I started to know the game.
    Rakarth as you know has a dragon like Malekith but here there is a big difference Rakath is not a sorcerer and this in itself makes it very interesting to give more strategic options to the battles being able to alternate your sorceress hero as you are interested in one lore or another.
    To this is added that it is a beastlord which means that it will have a bonus against large and skills that accompany this theme which can be quite remarkable if you consider how important the monsters are in TW: Warhammer.
    Rakath offers unique strategic battle options.

    Malus for his part is also interesting in a similar way to Rakath but with abilities focused on Tzarkan and the unique artifacts that Malus has in possession.

    Tularis as executioner (my favorite unit of the game) which is also very interesting, being the chosen one of khaine although personally I do not see it very interesting in battle it will simply be a meat grinder with more armor than Hellebron but in campaign they could make some curious mechanics with the theme of the voice of Khaine although this is obviously something secondary the most important thing is the contribution of the battle options.

    On Darkblade it is a curious option if the DLC turns out to be against the Eshin clan, if this is not the case I would only expect to see it as an LH that uses mechanics similar to Gotrek and Felix but exclusive to the factions of the dark elves.
  • LabriaLabria Posts: 574Registered Users

    Labria said:

    Labria said:

    We have still four potential missing legendary lords from 8th edition(Malus, Kouran, Tullaris and Shadowblade). If they can make Tiktaq'to to Legendary Lord, I don't see any problem with these four guys.
    Why CA should choose first Anethra or Rakarth? 8th edition > older editions.

    Two are subjects of existing LL, the other is a named assassin, exactly the type to not want to lead an army.
    And? Kouran or Tullaris can be sent on a mission far from home like Tiktaq'to.
    Shadowblade's campaing can be very interesting with horde system and focus to killing characters from Vortex's cutscenes for Dark Elves.

    Malus is just generic for you. But Malakith's clone from 5th edtion is better?
    Beastie Boy works well with the LP units. Neither underling offers that. Generic's focused on himself so makes ideal FLC or DLC if CA think it'll sell more.
    Sure, Malekith's clone can work with High Beastmaster and Scourgerunner Chariot. But If you look to last Lord pack, We get Nakai with his weak clones for new generic lord option and new Kroxigor unit made be CA just for him.
    CA can easy make same thing for Dark Elves with Kouran, Tullaris, Shadowblade or even with Mengil Manhide. :p

    For example:
    Kouran vs Throt is good match. Guy with big halberd vs Throt's monsters. Kouran can be interesting anti-large focus lord.
    Legendary Lord: Kouran Blackhand
    Generic Lord: Captain of the Black Guard or High Beastmaster
    Units: Scourgerunner Chariot, Bloodwrack Medusa, Bloodwarck Shrine and new variant of Black Guard.

    Malekith's clone is not only choice for Lord pack. B)
  • MarkerMarker Posts: 1,037Registered Users
    edited October 19
    What exactly do you think is the argument for Rakarth, instead of Helbane?

    That he is an actual beastlord rather than a politician.

    Does he have anything else going for him?

    Rakarth would be focused more on cavalry and have the fastest ground mount in the game and would be focused on the lore of beasts, summoning beast, buffing beasts, healing beasts, removing rampage of beasts, maybe mind controlling beast, or putting enemy beasts on rampage, fear / terror and have a lot of themed units / mechanics and skill trees.


    Rakarth is not a Beastmaster, he is the BeastLord and will have Beastmaster Hero's and generic BeastLords as well.


    Hellbane would be a diplomatic Morathi without chaos corruption.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Posts: 1,192Registered Users
    Marker said:

    What exactly do you think is the argument for Rakarth, instead of Helbane?

    That he is an actual beastlord rather than a politician.

    Does he have anything else going for him?

    Rakarth would be focused more on cavalry and have the fastest ground mount in the game and would be focused on the lore of beasts, summoning beast, buffing beasts, healing beasts, removing rampage of beasts, maybe mind controlling beast, or putting enemy beasts on rampage, fear / terror and have a lot of themed units / mechanics and skill trees.


    Rakarth is not a Beastmaster, he is the BeastLord and will have Beastmaster Hero's and generic BeastLords as well.


    Hellbane would be a diplomatic Morathi without chaos corruption.

    Rakarth's horse is dead, there is even an event for finding it's corpse. His current mount, the one represented by his model and rules, is a black dragon. Just like Malekith and Lokhir. And even if his horse was still alive, Tyrions horse would be faster. All the beast themed stuff you are talking about are invented, and Anethra Helbane could have the same, or more siince she is actually a sorceress. Rakarth was a basic melee fighter, with one rule to take control of enemy beasts once defeated, but I doubt the engine supports this. As for removing rampage that is something Malus could do in TT, at least for cold one knights.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,821Registered Users
    @Labria Rakarth fits the units and fits a theme against Throt nicely. None of the others do.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 1,834Registered Users
    2 Simple questions:

    What Lord type and units are DE missing?

    Which LL represents that Lord type and units?

    The first who answers right gets a cookie🍪
  • LabriaLabria Posts: 574Registered Users

    @Labria Rakarth fits the units and fits a theme against Throt nicely. None of the others do.

    image
    Rakarth vs Throt is not only option for next Lord pack. Maybe just for you. :p

    We don't know if we get Clan Moulder in next DLC. We can get missing non-moulder stuff. Clan Moulder can have Cross Lord pack in game 3.
    Also, Clan Moulder can be own race. After All, Clan Moulder have list in White Dwarf like Vampire Coast. B)

    I see at least others three options for Lord pack from 8th edition(Dark Elves vs Skaven):
    • Kouran vs Throt
    • Malus vs Thanquol
    • Shadowblade vs Deathmaster Snikch
    It will be big surprise for this forum, If CA will add Dark Elves character from 8th edition to next Lord pack instead of Rakarth. :o
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