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Chaos in game 3, one chaos undivided starter, 4 monos as DLC

_Mad_D0c__Mad_D0c_ Posts: 933Registered Users
edited October 21 in General Discussion
Goal
At the end I would love to see following Chaos factions. I think this is the best way to satisfy the most of us and to deliver what the different groups want. It even brings the most possible diverse factions, with different playstyles, goals and replayability.

BM
WoC undivided
DoC undivided NEW

4 seperate HoC monogods NEW:
Khorne
Slaanesh
Nurgle
Tzeentch



Those 4 HoC have only god aligned units but from BM (very less), WoC and DoC.

DoC monos were never be an option, because the roster is too small and what would be Khorne tier 1? For Khorne HoC it would be easy: Khorne marauders.

Host of Chaos from Tamurkhan book:





This 7 factions are needed from the Start of game 3. Because the rivalry between the gods is necessary too, to improve the campaigns for all factions from the start.

How this can work

Playable as Core would be only DoC undivided (beside that Ogres, CD and a human faction).
HoC Monos would be very barebone from the game 3 start and only AI factions and will need at first a lot of undivided units as placeholders.
HoC monos would be unlocked for the player with DLC, most fitting a rivalry Campaign Pack, 4 LL, 2 each faction and a lot of units, some of them will be respective unlocked for WoC undivided, DoC undivided & BM (see examples below).

To realise this amount of factions and a proper playable DoC undivided the best option seems to be N'kari and Be lakor as LL from the start. And we need one generic lord for each god, best way here, 2 greater demons, 2 lesser demons. Sarthorael has the model of a generic Lord of change, so here is the one for tzeentch. Nice would be flying animation rework for him and Malagor. So with N'kari CA has the skelet and animstion for keeper of secrets (hope the generic would be visually highly diverse to N'kari), slaanesh generic lord check. So Khorne and Nurgle get lower demon generic lords from the start (bloodletter and plaguebearer).

Would be nice if CA takes a little more charlemagne frim the start and give us more beside those 2 from the start, for example U' zuhl skulltaker and Epedemius for AI and as later FLC lord, so they need only model and campaign/skills can wsit till FLC. But in this case every Faction would have a named boss.

Faction diversity and abilities

Its important to all these factions a roster which is diverse enough, different playstyles, weaknesses and goals. I think some of you have better knowledge of this, imo it would be the following.

WoC undivided would have no access to demons and not the highest special god aligned bonusses. Tanky very diverse roster.

DoC undivided has specialised very low number units, less tier 1 units and would have great problems and attrition in uncorrupted regions,

HoC monos has access to god aligned units from WoC, BM and DoC so the roster is very diverse and they have access to demons (access is harder than for DoC undivided) but have highest god specific bonusses and weaknesses.

Khorne HoC:
low number units hard hitters, high armour, no range except hellcannon, no real magic

Slaanesh HoC:
hit and run, very fast, hard hitters, less armour and hp, the least flyers of chaos

Tzeentch HoC:
supreme magic, very diverse, low hp, the most ranged units of all Chaos

Nurgle HoC:
very tanky, slow, regeneration, deseases/poison, no range

Possible Mono DLC

Khorne vs Slaanesh HoC

Skarbrand and Valkia the bloody vs The Masque and Azazel


New greater demon lord for Khorne and lesser for Slaanesh

Possible Units for Khorne

Shared between HoC and DoC undivided:
Bloodletter on Juggernaught

Shared between HoC and WoC undivided:
Slaughterbrute
Chaos knights on juggernaughts? Because some monogod variants shouldnt be shared with WoC undivided like Khorne marauders.
But juggernaught as Khorne Lord mount.

Shared between HoC and BM undivided:
Khornegors and Ghorgon

And so on...

Tzeentch vs Nurgle

The changeling and Vilitich the curseling vs
Ku'gath Plaguefather and Tamurkhan


Kairos FLC
Later Engrimm van Horstmann FLC
...


Choose your LL

With a hopefully Rework of how you choose your LL in menu, (at first choose faction, after that the LL) some of the Demon LL could work for DoC undivided and HoC monos.
In this case you can choose Sigvald as WoC undivided or as HoC Slaanesh (AI Sigvald is the latter). After releasing of Slaanesh DLC N'kari is availlable for HoC Slaanesh too.

This would give WoC undivided under Archaon and Kholek a totally different campaign, playstyles and goals compared to DoC undivided with Be lakor or HoC Slaanesh with Sigvald and N'kari. I think the AI DoC undivided should be led everytime by Be lakor, only the player can choose god aligned Demon LL for DoC undivided.

If you choose Kairos or van Horstmann as HoC Tzeentch LL will give you different buffs and bonus to different units. Kairos is more focused on Demons, Horstmann on beasts and "mortals".
Post edited by _Mad_D0c_ on

Comments

  • SultschiemSultschiem Posts: 1,630Registered Users
    I would rather like to see kinda like a "pick your own adventure" campaign...for both good and bad....

    Chaos: you start with a basic roster and depending on the challenges and quests you fulfill, you will gain access to more units ... lets say you can gain the favor of tzeench to unlock horrors, screamers etc. and units of a particular mark.

    You can gain access to beastmen, norscan, warriors of chaos, daemons of chaos or chaos dwarf units...some of which will exclude others. Your goal is to destroy all "good" factions.

    As for good.....make a "Crusade of light" using Valten. Similar here: unlock units from high elves, wood elves, empire, bretonnia, dwarves, ogres etc. by beating their foes, challenges and fulfilling certain quests. Your job is to destroy all "evil" factions.

    Then there could be a nagash faction....similar concept: unlock vampire counts, vampire coast or tomb king units.


    Just as an idea.
  • brago90brago90 Posts: 256Registered Users
    I will always defend having 6 initial factions (4 monogods, Chaos dwarfs and Cathay / Kislev) along with a cross system of chaos lords with Be'Lakor as representative of daemons of chaos.

    It is simply the best way to sell the game and capture the chaotic features.

    Greater demons exclusive of monogods and will be the monogods LP

    Daemon princes as lords of daemons of chaos and their respective monogod with Be'Lakor as exclusive of daemons of chaos.

    Chosen from chaos as lords of Warriors of chaos and their respective monogod with Archaon and Kolek as exclusive of Warriors of chaos.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Posts: 1,019Registered Users

    I would rather like to see kinda like a "pick your own adventure" campaign...for both good and bad....

    Chaos: you start with a basic roster and depending on the challenges and quests you fulfill, you will gain access to more units ... lets say you can gain the favor of tzeench to unlock horrors, screamers etc. and units of a particular mark.

    You can gain access to beastmen, norscan, warriors of chaos, daemons of chaos or chaos dwarf units...some of which will exclude others. Your goal is to destroy all "good" factions.

    As for good.....make a "Crusade of light" using Valten. Similar here: unlock units from high elves, wood elves, empire, bretonnia, dwarves, ogres etc. by beating their foes, challenges and fulfilling certain quests. Your job is to destroy all "evil" factions.

    Then there could be a nagash faction....similar concept: unlock vampire counts, vampire coast or tomb king units.


    Just as an idea.

    Part of the problem is that most chaos warriors and all demons bar Belakor are god-aligned. It would not make sense for Valkia to be able to pick a god though quests, as her devotion to Khorne is an integral part of the character.
  • SultschiemSultschiem Posts: 1,630Registered Users

    I would rather like to see kinda like a "pick your own adventure" campaign...for both good and bad....

    Chaos: you start with a basic roster and depending on the challenges and quests you fulfill, you will gain access to more units ... lets say you can gain the favor of tzeench to unlock horrors, screamers etc. and units of a particular mark.

    You can gain access to beastmen, norscan, warriors of chaos, daemons of chaos or chaos dwarf units...some of which will exclude others. Your goal is to destroy all "good" factions.

    As for good.....make a "Crusade of light" using Valten. Similar here: unlock units from high elves, wood elves, empire, bretonnia, dwarves, ogres etc. by beating their foes, challenges and fulfilling certain quests. Your job is to destroy all "evil" factions.

    Then there could be a nagash faction....similar concept: unlock vampire counts, vampire coast or tomb king units.


    Just as an idea.

    Part of the problem is that most chaos warriors and all demons bar Belakor are god-aligned. It would not make sense for Valkia to be able to pick a god though quests, as her devotion to Khorne is an integral part of the character.
    How about you unlock valkia as a legendary lord by dedicating yourself enough to Khorne? Think the other way around.

    Archaon for example is not devoted to only 1 god.... why not have this be his campaign. Bel'Akor could also be a viable candidate.... or other chaos champions.

    Hell, Archaon and Valten are fated to fight one another.... with Nagash being the third wheel there..
  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 3,119Registered Users
    brago90 said:

    I will always defend having 6 initial factions (4 monogods, Chaos dwarfs and Cathay / Kislev) along with a cross system of chaos lords with Be'Lakor as representative of daemons of chaos.

    It is simply the best way to sell the game and capture the chaotic features.

    Greater demons exclusive of monogods and will be the monogods LP

    Daemon princes as lords of daemons of chaos and their respective monogod with Be'Lakor as exclusive of daemons of chaos.

    Chosen from chaos as lords of Warriors of chaos and their respective monogod with Archaon and Kolek as exclusive of Warriors of chaos.

    Except that I believe CA quite bluntly stated that each game will have 4 races at launch around the time game 2 announced. Also even without that believing that CA will make the base game have 50% more factions than the last 2 is a tad unrealistic.

    CA will almost certainly go with armybooks, so DoC, OKs, CDs, +1 (Kislev I think), Monogods can come as DLC, and I really see no reason why anyone would have a problem with that setup, Chaos lovers will get something before their prefered god gets a dedicated roster, people who aren't so interested in Chaos get plenty too.
  • _Mad_D0c__Mad_D0c_ Posts: 933Registered Users

    I would rather like to see kinda like a "pick your own adventure" campaign...for both good and bad....

    Chaos: you start with a basic roster and depending on the challenges and quests you fulfill, you will gain access to more units ... lets say you can gain the favor of tzeench to unlock horrors, screamers etc. and units of a particular mark.

    You can gain access to beastmen, norscan, warriors of chaos, daemons of chaos or chaos dwarf units...some of which will exclude others. Your goal is to destroy all "good" factions.

    As for good.....make a "Crusade of light" using Valten. Similar here: unlock units from high elves, wood elves, empire, bretonnia, dwarves, ogres etc. by beating their foes, challenges and fulfilling certain quests. Your job is to destroy all "evil" factions.

    Then there could be a nagash faction....similar concept: unlock vampire counts, vampire coast or tomb king units.


    Just as an idea.

    Part of the problem is that most chaos warriors and all demons bar Belakor are god-aligned. It would not make sense for Valkia to be able to pick a god though quests, as her devotion to Khorne is an integral part of the character.
    How about you unlock valkia as a legendary lord by dedicating yourself enough to Khorne? Think the other way around.

    Archaon for example is not devoted to only 1 god.... why not have this be his campaign. Bel'Akor could also be a viable candidate.... or other chaos champions.

    Hell, Archaon and Valten are fated to fight one another.... with Nagash being the third wheel there..
    And what if I wont start with an undivided one? A reworked Sigvald campaign should give me the option to go full slaanesh from the start.

    And except Kroak there is no TT LL you unlock later in game, LL are everytine the Lird choice to begin a campaign, why should CA change this now?
  • brago90brago90 Posts: 256Registered Users
    Goatforce said:

    brago90 said:

    I will always defend having 6 initial factions (4 monogods, Chaos dwarfs and Cathay / Kislev) along with a cross system of chaos lords with Be'Lakor as representative of daemons of chaos.

    It is simply the best way to sell the game and capture the chaotic features.

    Greater demons exclusive of monogods and will be the monogods LP

    Daemon princes as lords of daemons of chaos and their respective monogod with Be'Lakor as exclusive of daemons of chaos.

    Chosen from chaos as lords of Warriors of chaos and their respective monogod with Archaon and Kolek as exclusive of Warriors of chaos.

    Except that I believe CA quite bluntly stated that each game will have 4 races at launch around the time game 2 announced. Also even without that believing that CA will make the base game have 50% more factions than the last 2 is a tad unrealistic.

    CA will almost certainly go with armybooks, so DoC, OKs, CDs, +1 (Kislev I think), Monogods can come as DLC, and I really see no reason why anyone would have a problem with that setup, Chaos lovers will get something before their prefered god gets a dedicated roster, people who aren't so interested in Chaos get plenty too.
    The problem with monogods is that if you take out the faction of a god and then take a year to take out the faction of another god, everyone will be thrown around your neck. The 4 monogod factions have to come together either DLC or launch.

    Then there is the issue that from a narrative perspective it has more sense to prioritize monogod.

    That's why I defend having 6 factions and we wouldn't have 50% more free content since half of monogod's things will be part of WoC as well.
    Technically new would be the 4 princes daemon (and Be'Lakor) next to the daemons units.
    While the rest will be the missing units and lords of Warriors of chaos.
    For something I promote a system of units (and lords) crossed.

    It is the best option both from a sales perspective and from a playable perspective.

    And it is not that it is something so rare because TW: Warhammer 1 has 5 initial factions.
  • Unknown6203Unknown6203 Posts: 835Registered Users
    edited October 19
    You said most of us? most of us don't want Chaosfest. i explained various times how this doesn't make marketing sense. 5 factions of Chaos its to much. all of us would prefert if minor factions would get their time to shine.

    Out of the 5 Chaos factions, i disagree whit a stand alone Daemons... they make no sense and if they were they would be a Horde. at start we need a balanced roster most agree that its 1 Monogod faction, Chaos Dwarfs, Ogre Kingdom and Kislev.

    To me it would even make more sense if the Chaos Gods would have a LL on WoC whit a complete different roster after all half of its roster its shared. I have no clue how CA will do this if they don't play it right the sales will plummet. i for one will not buy any Chaos related DLC because i honestly dont care or like the feel of those factions and all the factions i want are on WH1/WH2.

  • SultschiemSultschiem Posts: 1,630Registered Users
    _Mad_D0c_ said:

    I would rather like to see kinda like a "pick your own adventure" campaign...for both good and bad....

    Chaos: you start with a basic roster and depending on the challenges and quests you fulfill, you will gain access to more units ... lets say you can gain the favor of tzeench to unlock horrors, screamers etc. and units of a particular mark.

    You can gain access to beastmen, norscan, warriors of chaos, daemons of chaos or chaos dwarf units...some of which will exclude others. Your goal is to destroy all "good" factions.

    As for good.....make a "Crusade of light" using Valten. Similar here: unlock units from high elves, wood elves, empire, bretonnia, dwarves, ogres etc. by beating their foes, challenges and fulfilling certain quests. Your job is to destroy all "evil" factions.

    Then there could be a nagash faction....similar concept: unlock vampire counts, vampire coast or tomb king units.


    Just as an idea.

    Part of the problem is that most chaos warriors and all demons bar Belakor are god-aligned. It would not make sense for Valkia to be able to pick a god though quests, as her devotion to Khorne is an integral part of the character.
    How about you unlock valkia as a legendary lord by dedicating yourself enough to Khorne? Think the other way around.

    Archaon for example is not devoted to only 1 god.... why not have this be his campaign. Bel'Akor could also be a viable candidate.... or other chaos champions.

    Hell, Archaon and Valten are fated to fight one another.... with Nagash being the third wheel there..
    And what if I wont start with an undivided one? A reworked Sigvald campaign should give me the option to go full slaanesh from the start.

    And except Kroak there is no TT LL you unlock later in game, LL are everytine the Lird choice to begin a campaign, why should CA change this now?
    You also unlocked unique lords via the research tree of tomb kings and vampire coast as well as unlocked one via the norsca god-mechanic.

    You also "unlock" legendary lords you don`t play as within your own faction (e.g. thorgrim as grombrindal etc.)

    I`m not talking about a generic campaign for a specific race that blocks all others, I`m talking about a unique campaign that is "all chaos" aside from the dedicated doc, woc, bm etc. campaigns.

    What if you have to fight these ll-lords in quest-battles to unlock them and a few of their units?
  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 3,119Registered Users
    brago90 said:

    Goatforce said:

    brago90 said:

    I will always defend having 6 initial factions (4 monogods, Chaos dwarfs and Cathay / Kislev) along with a cross system of chaos lords with Be'Lakor as representative of daemons of chaos.

    It is simply the best way to sell the game and capture the chaotic features.

    Greater demons exclusive of monogods and will be the monogods LP

    Daemon princes as lords of daemons of chaos and their respective monogod with Be'Lakor as exclusive of daemons of chaos.

    Chosen from chaos as lords of Warriors of chaos and their respective monogod with Archaon and Kolek as exclusive of Warriors of chaos.

    Except that I believe CA quite bluntly stated that each game will have 4 races at launch around the time game 2 announced. Also even without that believing that CA will make the base game have 50% more factions than the last 2 is a tad unrealistic.

    CA will almost certainly go with armybooks, so DoC, OKs, CDs, +1 (Kislev I think), Monogods can come as DLC, and I really see no reason why anyone would have a problem with that setup, Chaos lovers will get something before their prefered god gets a dedicated roster, people who aren't so interested in Chaos get plenty too.
    The problem with monogods is that if you take out the faction of a god and then take a year to take out the faction of another god, everyone will be thrown around your neck. The 4 monogod factions have to come together either DLC or launch.

    Then there is the issue that from a narrative perspective it has more sense to prioritize monogod.

    That's why I defend having 6 factions and we wouldn't have 50% more free content since half of monogod's things will be part of WoC as well.
    Technically new would be the 4 princes daemon (and Be'Lakor) next to the daemons units.
    While the rest will be the missing units and lords of Warriors of chaos.
    For something I promote a system of units (and lords) crossed.

    It is the best option both from a sales perspective and from a playable perspective.

    And it is not that it is something so rare because TW: Warhammer 1 has 5 initial factions.
    No, it had 4, Bretonia wasn't fully implemented and was unplayable in campaign at launch - WoC were also a DLC and not core if they were who you are refering to.

    You are assuming that Monos will be introduced 1 at a time, I personally see them as being released in LP style CPs, so over 2 releases. Also this "people will have to wait for their god" argument overlooks some important facts: 1, DoC will be in the game so everyone will have some god stuff from launch and there will be stuff in DLC and the LPs. 2, Monogods are not armybook rosters, this game is explicitly based primarily upon 8th Ed TT, waiting for an non-armybook god faction is really not valid as a complaint in this case.

    From a narrative perspective it absolutely makes no sense to prioritise Monogods, this will be the "End Times" of CA's WH incarnation - what makes most sense is having a focus on Daemons, as a unified force (as in TT), facing off against the mortal races (which is why I very much think Kislev is very likely as the 4th race, as it would be thematically perfect).

    Again, CA has said 4 races for cores, so 6 factions seems highly unlikely, I mean they may have changed their minds, but until I see something to back that up I think the claim of 6 factions has no substantial reason to believe it as anything more than wishful thinking.

    Sales perspective... To my knowledge the most played faction is the Empire, HEs I think are also very popular. Good, human(like) factions are important for marketing these games, providing a balance to crazy or evil factions. The fact your linup provides neither humanoid or "good" factions (OKs are neutral at best) suggests that it is fact a bad pitch from from a "sales and playable perspective".
  • brago90brago90 Posts: 256Registered Users
    Goatforce said:

    brago90 said:

    Goatforce said:

    brago90 said:

    I will always defend having 6 initial factions (4 monogods, Chaos dwarfs and Cathay / Kislev) along with a cross system of chaos lords with Be'Lakor as representative of daemons of chaos.

    It is simply the best way to sell the game and capture the chaotic features.

    Greater demons exclusive of monogods and will be the monogods LP

    Daemon princes as lords of daemons of chaos and their respective monogod with Be'Lakor as exclusive of daemons of chaos.

    Chosen from chaos as lords of Warriors of chaos and their respective monogod with Archaon and Kolek as exclusive of Warriors of chaos.

    Except that I believe CA quite bluntly stated that each game will have 4 races at launch around the time game 2 announced. Also even without that believing that CA will make the base game have 50% more factions than the last 2 is a tad unrealistic.

    CA will almost certainly go with armybooks, so DoC, OKs, CDs, +1 (Kislev I think), Monogods can come as DLC, and I really see no reason why anyone would have a problem with that setup, Chaos lovers will get something before their prefered god gets a dedicated roster, people who aren't so interested in Chaos get plenty too.
    The problem with monogods is that if you take out the faction of a god and then take a year to take out the faction of another god, everyone will be thrown around your neck. The 4 monogod factions have to come together either DLC or launch.

    Then there is the issue that from a narrative perspective it has more sense to prioritize monogod.

    That's why I defend having 6 factions and we wouldn't have 50% more free content since half of monogod's things will be part of WoC as well.
    Technically new would be the 4 princes daemon (and Be'Lakor) next to the daemons units.
    While the rest will be the missing units and lords of Warriors of chaos.
    For something I promote a system of units (and lords) crossed.

    It is the best option both from a sales perspective and from a playable perspective.

    And it is not that it is something so rare because TW: Warhammer 1 has 5 initial factions.
    No, it had 4, Bretonia wasn't fully implemented and was unplayable in campaign at launch - WoC were also a DLC and not core if they were who you are refering to.

    You are assuming that Monos will be introduced 1 at a time, I personally see them as being released in LP style CPs, so over 2 releases. Also this "people will have to wait for their god" argument overlooks some important facts: 1, DoC will be in the game so everyone will have some god stuff from launch and there will be stuff in DLC and the LPs. 2, Monogods are not armybook rosters, this game is explicitly based primarily upon 8th Ed TT, waiting for an non-armybook god faction is really not valid as a complaint in this case.

    From a narrative perspective it absolutely makes no sense to prioritise Monogods, this will be the "End Times" of CA's WH incarnation - what makes most sense is having a focus on Daemons, as a unified force (as in TT), facing off against the mortal races (which is why I very much think Kislev is very likely as the 4th race, as it would be thematically perfect).

    Again, CA has said 4 races for cores, so 6 factions seems highly unlikely, I mean they may have changed their minds, but until I see something to back that up I think the claim of 6 factions has no substantial reason to believe it as anything more than wishful thinking.

    Sales perspective... To my knowledge the most played faction is the Empire, HEs I think are also very popular. Good, human(like) factions are important for marketing these games, providing a balance to crazy or evil factions. The fact your linup provides neither humanoid or "good" factions (OKs are neutral at best) suggests that it is fact a bad pitch from from a "sales and playable perspective".
    Read my first sentence. I don't mention ogre kingdoms.
    '' 4 monogod, Chaos dwarfs and Kislev / Cathay ''

    And I propose a system of cross units to represent the monogod factions.

    With the greater demons as LP adding the exclusive monogod units.

    I argue that the 4 monogod factions have to be released at the same time and that to prioritize one god over another it would irritate the chaos fans.

    And that half the content of monogods would come from WoC rework.

  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 3,119Registered Users
    brago90 said:

    Goatforce said:

    brago90 said:

    Goatforce said:

    brago90 said:

    I will always defend having 6 initial factions (4 monogods, Chaos dwarfs and Cathay / Kislev) along with a cross system of chaos lords with Be'Lakor as representative of daemons of chaos.

    It is simply the best way to sell the game and capture the chaotic features.

    Greater demons exclusive of monogods and will be the monogods LP

    Daemon princes as lords of daemons of chaos and their respective monogod with Be'Lakor as exclusive of daemons of chaos.

    Chosen from chaos as lords of Warriors of chaos and their respective monogod with Archaon and Kolek as exclusive of Warriors of chaos.

    Except that I believe CA quite bluntly stated that each game will have 4 races at launch around the time game 2 announced. Also even without that believing that CA will make the base game have 50% more factions than the last 2 is a tad unrealistic.

    CA will almost certainly go with armybooks, so DoC, OKs, CDs, +1 (Kislev I think), Monogods can come as DLC, and I really see no reason why anyone would have a problem with that setup, Chaos lovers will get something before their prefered god gets a dedicated roster, people who aren't so interested in Chaos get plenty too.
    The problem with monogods is that if you take out the faction of a god and then take a year to take out the faction of another god, everyone will be thrown around your neck. The 4 monogod factions have to come together either DLC or launch.

    Then there is the issue that from a narrative perspective it has more sense to prioritize monogod.

    That's why I defend having 6 factions and we wouldn't have 50% more free content since half of monogod's things will be part of WoC as well.
    Technically new would be the 4 princes daemon (and Be'Lakor) next to the daemons units.
    While the rest will be the missing units and lords of Warriors of chaos.
    For something I promote a system of units (and lords) crossed.

    It is the best option both from a sales perspective and from a playable perspective.

    And it is not that it is something so rare because TW: Warhammer 1 has 5 initial factions.
    No, it had 4, Bretonia wasn't fully implemented and was unplayable in campaign at launch - WoC were also a DLC and not core if they were who you are refering to.

    You are assuming that Monos will be introduced 1 at a time, I personally see them as being released in LP style CPs, so over 2 releases. Also this "people will have to wait for their god" argument overlooks some important facts: 1, DoC will be in the game so everyone will have some god stuff from launch and there will be stuff in DLC and the LPs. 2, Monogods are not armybook rosters, this game is explicitly based primarily upon 8th Ed TT, waiting for an non-armybook god faction is really not valid as a complaint in this case.

    From a narrative perspective it absolutely makes no sense to prioritise Monogods, this will be the "End Times" of CA's WH incarnation - what makes most sense is having a focus on Daemons, as a unified force (as in TT), facing off against the mortal races (which is why I very much think Kislev is very likely as the 4th race, as it would be thematically perfect).

    Again, CA has said 4 races for cores, so 6 factions seems highly unlikely, I mean they may have changed their minds, but until I see something to back that up I think the claim of 6 factions has no substantial reason to believe it as anything more than wishful thinking.

    Sales perspective... To my knowledge the most played faction is the Empire, HEs I think are also very popular. Good, human(like) factions are important for marketing these games, providing a balance to crazy or evil factions. The fact your linup provides neither humanoid or "good" factions (OKs are neutral at best) suggests that it is fact a bad pitch from from a "sales and playable perspective".
    Read my first sentence. I don't mention ogre kingdoms.
    '' 4 monogod, Chaos dwarfs and Kislev / Cathay ''

    And I propose a system of cross units to represent the monogod factions.

    With the greater demons as LP adding the exclusive monogod units.

    I argue that the 4 monogod factions have to be released at the same time and that to prioritize one god over another it would irritate the chaos fans.

    And that half the content of monogods would come from WoC rework.

    I apologise, I mistakenly assumed you would at least attempt to include some 8th edition armybooks in a series CA has explicitly stated is based on 8th Edition TT..... Sorry I'm being snarky but this pretty much sums up why your suggestion won't be what comes game 3, I cannot see this even having a 1% chance of coming, CA has stated 4 races Core per game, that they are focussing on armybooks, so your prediction goes against pretty much everything CA has said about their approach so far.

    Cross units? You mean Monos being BM, Warriors, Daemons of a god? If so that is what everyone outside of those trying to strawman Monos as "a terrible idea" understands them to be - no one seriously thinks Monos are anything else.

    Wait, Greater Daemons in LPs adding exclusive monogod units? You mean Monos will start lacking a lot of their Daemons? So you are worried about Chaos players being annoyed but denying them a lot of Daemons? Also does this mean that the Monos will be pretty low effort? Tom me I see very little reason to have monos if they don't make the Warriors well designed with Nurgle warriors as bloated monstrosities for example, this is an extra reason to go with armybooks and leave Monos for DLC to put some effort into making them distinct from the start, instead of offering bland "Monos by name only" at launch.

    One god over the other would irritate Chaos fans... An interesting statement. What about people who played TT DoC who might be a little miffed at getting passed over for races that didn't exist on TT? Would you say they might be Chaos fans who would be irritated? I say it again, Monos are not TT, why would people be getting over-irritated waiting for something that isn't even a TT race. Yes I'm sure if Monos are done (and I think they will be) people will want their favourite god in as soon as possible - I know I will as I do really want Monos eventually - but it is pretty obtuse to hold up this desire as a reason they will be in over the armybook races that CA has stated are their priority. Also why do Chaos fans specificaly have this short fuse about a particular part of their race being added that CA has to cater to? What about Ogre Kingdoms, an armybook race, being passed over for races that are non TT? Did TK fans (like myself) get angry over not being in the core of game 2? No, and they had far more cause to given that they, sorry but this cannot be stressed enough, are an actual armybook race and thus had a far better claim to a core slot than Monos ever could.

    What do you mean half the content of monos will come from Mono's rework? What exactly do you expect from a free rework, especially as apparently something that will be transfered to the Monogods. The only chance I see for a large unit drop for free for WoC comes from DoC being a core, as someunits in DoC could be repurposed for WoC quite easily (Skullcrushers are Bloodcrushers with a Warrior instead of Daemon riding for example). A free update is not going to provide stuff for a core race.
  • AmonkhetAmonkhet Posts: 1,369Registered Users
    They won't do four exact same Chaos factions in an initial release. What reason would there be to buy at that moment if you don't like Chaos?. Also, Monogods don't have books or white dwarf lists.

    Release races will be Daemons of Chaos, Chaos Dwarves, Ogre Kingdoms and likely one other race.
  • _Mad_D0c__Mad_D0c_ Posts: 933Registered Users
    Seems to be that Brago90 hijacked my thread with his "6 factions from start"wish.

    In the OP I said only one chaos faction (2 LL) from start abd it would be DoC undivided.

    Why did everybody else mentions "no monos from start" over and over again. Thats not the topic here guys.
  • brago90brago90 Posts: 256Registered Users
    Goatforce said:

    brago90 said:

    Goatforce said:

    brago90 said:

    Goatforce said:

    brago90 said:

    I will always defend having 6 initial factions (4 monogods, Chaos dwarfs and Cathay / Kislev) along with a cross system of chaos lords with Be'Lakor as representative of daemons of chaos.

    It is simply the best way to sell the game and capture the chaotic features.

    Greater demons exclusive of monogods and will be the monogods LP

    Daemon princes as lords of daemons of chaos and their respective monogod with Be'Lakor as exclusive of daemons of chaos.

    Chosen from chaos as lords of Warriors of chaos and their respective monogod with Archaon and Kolek as exclusive of Warriors of chaos.

    Except that I believe CA quite bluntly stated that each game will have 4 races at launch around the time game 2 announced. Also even without that believing that CA will make the base game have 50% more factions than the last 2 is a tad unrealistic.

    CA will almost certainly go with armybooks, so DoC, OKs, CDs, +1 (Kislev I think), Monogods can come as DLC, and I really see no reason why anyone would have a problem with that setup, Chaos lovers will get something before their prefered god gets a dedicated roster, people who aren't so interested in Chaos get plenty too.
    The problem with monogods is that if you take out the faction of a god and then take a year to take out the faction of another god, everyone will be thrown around your neck. The 4 monogod factions have to come together either DLC or launch.

    Then there is the issue that from a narrative perspective it has more sense to prioritize monogod.

    That's why I defend having 6 factions and we wouldn't have 50% more free content since half of monogod's things will be part of WoC as well.
    Technically new would be the 4 princes daemon (and Be'Lakor) next to the daemons units.
    While the rest will be the missing units and lords of Warriors of chaos.
    For something I promote a system of units (and lords) crossed.

    It is the best option both from a sales perspective and from a playable perspective.

    And it is not that it is something so rare because TW: Warhammer 1 has 5 initial factions.
    No, it had 4, Bretonia wasn't fully implemented and was unplayable in campaign at launch - WoC were also a DLC and not core if they were who you are refering to.

    You are assuming that Monos will be introduced 1 at a time, I personally see them as being released in LP style CPs, so over 2 releases. Also this "people will have to wait for their god" argument overlooks some important facts: 1, DoC will be in the game so everyone will have some god stuff from launch and there will be stuff in DLC and the LPs. 2, Monogods are not armybook rosters, this game is explicitly based primarily upon 8th Ed TT, waiting for an non-armybook god faction is really not valid as a complaint in this case.

    From a narrative perspective it absolutely makes no sense to prioritise Monogods, this will be the "End Times" of CA's WH incarnation - what makes most sense is having a focus on Daemons, as a unified force (as in TT), facing off against the mortal races (which is why I very much think Kislev is very likely as the 4th race, as it would be thematically perfect).

    Again, CA has said 4 races for cores, so 6 factions seems highly unlikely, I mean they may have changed their minds, but until I see something to back that up I think the claim of 6 factions has no substantial reason to believe it as anything more than wishful thinking.

    Sales perspective... To my knowledge the most played faction is the Empire, HEs I think are also very popular. Good, human(like) factions are important for marketing these games, providing a balance to crazy or evil factions. The fact your linup provides neither humanoid or "good" factions (OKs are neutral at best) suggests that it is fact a bad pitch from from a "sales and playable perspective".
    Read my first sentence. I don't mention ogre kingdoms.
    '' 4 monogod, Chaos dwarfs and Kislev / Cathay ''

    And I propose a system of cross units to represent the monogod factions.

    With the greater demons as LP adding the exclusive monogod units.

    I argue that the 4 monogod factions have to be released at the same time and that to prioritize one god over another it would irritate the chaos fans.

    And that half the content of monogods would come from WoC rework.

    I apologise, I mistakenly assumed you would at least attempt to include some 8th edition armybooks in a series CA has explicitly stated is based on 8th Edition TT..... Sorry I'm being snarky but this pretty much sums up why your suggestion won't be what comes game 3, I cannot see this even having a 1% chance of coming, CA has stated 4 races Core per game, that they are focussing on armybooks, so your prediction goes against pretty much everything CA has said about their approach so far.

    Cross units? You mean Monos being BM, Warriors, Daemons of a god? If so that is what everyone outside of those trying to strawman Monos as "a terrible idea" understands them to be - no one seriously thinks Monos are anything else.

    Wait, Greater Daemons in LPs adding exclusive monogod units? You mean Monos will start lacking a lot of their Daemons? So you are worried about Chaos players being annoyed but denying them a lot of Daemons? Also does this mean that the Monos will be pretty low effort? Tom me I see very little reason to have monos if they don't make the Warriors well designed with Nurgle warriors as bloated monstrosities for example, this is an extra reason to go with armybooks and leave Monos for DLC to put some effort into making them distinct from the start, instead of offering bland "Monos by name only" at launch.

    One god over the other would irritate Chaos fans... An interesting statement. What about people who played TT DoC who might be a little miffed at getting passed over for races that didn't exist on TT? Would you say they might be Chaos fans who would be irritated? I say it again, Monos are not TT, why would people be getting over-irritated waiting for something that isn't even a TT race. Yes I'm sure if Monos are done (and I think they will be) people will want their favourite god in as soon as possible - I know I will as I do really want Monos eventually - but it is pretty obtuse to hold up this desire as a reason they will be in over the armybook races that CA has stated are their priority. Also why do Chaos fans specificaly have this short fuse about a particular part of their race being added that CA has to cater to? What about Ogre Kingdoms, an armybook race, being passed over for races that are non TT? Did TK fans (like myself) get angry over not being in the core of game 2? No, and they had far more cause to given that they, sorry but this cannot be stressed enough, are an actual armybook race and thus had a far better claim to a core slot than Monos ever could.

    What do you mean half the content of monos will come from Mono's rework? What exactly do you expect from a free rework, especially as apparently something that will be transfered to the Monogods. The only chance I see for a large unit drop for free for WoC comes from DoC being a core, as someunits in DoC could be repurposed for WoC quite easily (Skullcrushers are Bloodcrushers with a Warrior instead of Daemon riding for example). A free update is not going to provide stuff for a core race.
    Who does not want to listen will not listen.


    Monogod is a faction that unites all the followers of a god under a unique flag independent of its origin. And there are units that would refuse to work with servants of another god and these would be the exclusive units of monogod units that you earn at the cost of sacrificing the diversity of Warriors of chaos and Daemons of chaos in pursuit of a particular approach taken to the extreme.
    Obviously DoC will be in the game and it will be the faction in which we will see the daemon princes (which will also be part of monogod) and Be'Lakor that will be exclusive to DoC.
    And finally we have WoC that will have units affiliated with a single god among which the chosen ones of chaos are included (Sigvald for example) and these will also be a monogod option.

    Then you have 2 options or encourage undivided chaos at the cost of losing the favor of your god (except if you are a lord of undivided chaos like Archaon) or you dedicate yourself exclusively to your god in order to gain X benefits at the cost of losing access to the units of the rest of the gods eventually.

    And after the launch of the game a LP that adds the 4 greater daemons(LL) with the exclusive units of monogods that are not part of the WoC and DoC lists.

    However this puts daemons of chaos with 4 or 5 daemon princes (Be'Lakor could be an FLC after the game's release) since launch (along with the 3 missing WoC LLs). Giving both complete factions since the release of the game. And this could have the consequence that Ogre Kingdoms ended up being a DLC for having little reason to be interested in appearing in a chaotic campaign.

    So since launch you have DoC and WoC but you have the option to play monogod which will be fully implemented with a LP of similar size to a faction pack (Tomb kings, Vampire coast for exemple) that will bring all the exclusive units of monogod and bring the 4 factions that will be forced to be monogod yes or yes.

    About Beastmen, I don't know what to tell you, because although they have some units affiliated with one god or another, they are mostly a faction of undivided chaos that worship the concept of chaos and not its aspects.
  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 3,119Registered Users
    Who does not want to listen will not listen.


    .... Yes, putting forward a core idea that completely contradicts precedent, as well as everything CA has flat-out stated to be the case certainly fits that statement perfectly.

    This really isn't worth wasting anymore time on as the "4 Monogods at launch" is comparatively far more likely, despite it being a vanishingly slim probablilty due to CA's statements on focussing on armybooks.

    Oh, and talking about "not listening" you failed to address not including 8th edition armybooks at launch despite CA's obviously prioritising those books. Also you failed to address the rather odd assertion of "Chaos player irratability" over non-existant TT factions, when compared to irratability of players whose armybooks are not included such as OKs? Is your response going to be "they can wait for DLCs"? If it is, why can't Mono's (again, with no armybook) wait for DLCs? Surely the non-existant TT races should be the ones to wait in a game based on the TT?
  • SultschiemSultschiem Posts: 1,630Registered Users
    There is a huge issue with monogods....and daemons of chaos as a whole, no?
    ....they would ALL be hordes, no?

    Having a vanilla-race and all its lord-pack start positions and lords be hordes.....I don`t know about that tbh.

    But as far as demons of chaos go...they would actually need the winds of magic to be strong for them to manifest and to not be easily be banished (when the conditions are not there, demons can actually be rather easy to kill, think of undead ..).....so there could be some form of "expanding" influence that needs to be done or your armies are going to be weak.

    Maybe they will do them similar to the wood elves... you have your "citadel" of your monogod inside the realm of chaos/chaos waste, which will only ever get challenged by other chaos-worshippers inside of it (daemons, norscans, beastmen, chaos dwarves, warriors of chaos rogue armies of such things as chaos ogres etc.)

    and to go further south, you must create summoning sites, portals, obelisks and similar to spread the influence of chaos and to make the winds of magic strong enough so that the demons will not be weak/suffer horrible attrition or just outright can`t go somewhere.
  • brago90brago90 Posts: 256Registered Users

    There is a huge issue with monogods....and daemons of chaos as a whole, no?
    ....they would ALL be hordes, no?

    Having a vanilla-race and all its lord-pack start positions and lords be hordes.....I don`t know about that tbh.

    But as far as demons of chaos go...they would actually need the winds of magic to be strong for them to manifest and to not be easily be banished (when the conditions are not there, demons can actually be rather easy to kill, think of undead ..).....so there could be some form of "expanding" influence that needs to be done or your armies are going to be weak.

    Maybe they will do them similar to the wood elves... you have your "citadel" of your monogod inside the realm of chaos/chaos waste, which will only ever get challenged by other chaos-worshippers inside of it (daemons, norscans, beastmen, chaos dwarves, warriors of chaos rogue armies of such things as chaos ogres etc.)

    and to go further south, you must create summoning sites, portals, obelisks and similar to spread the influence of chaos and to make the winds of magic strong enough so that the demons will not be weak/suffer horrible attrition or just outright can`t go somewhere.

    In the chaos wastes there are several fortresses and settlements so we could see mechanics more similar to Norsca than to a horde. Low-income settlements that force you to attack other territories in order to obtain resources to improve your fortresses and settlements.
  • SultschiemSultschiem Posts: 1,630Registered Users
    Yes I know. The thing is, that the chaos waste "attrition" is several times higher than the "norsca"-attrition, meaning as non-daemon factions....you could not "defeat" the daemons of chaos....but that seems to be according to lore either way.

    As Demons of Chaos, the only way to lose would be to lose your base there too to other chaos-factions, which could always re-appear... would also be fine I guess.
  • Unknown6203Unknown6203 Posts: 835Registered Users
    I give up. i honestly think DoC separate is a horrible idea.

    I still think Wh3 should be and expansion and not a full game. there not much to add and CA has the Warhammer license for a few years now there not much room for us seeing other minor factions.
  • GoatforceGoatforce Posts: 3,119Registered Users

    I give up. i honestly think DoC separate is a horrible idea.

    I still think Wh3 should be and expansion and not a full game. there not much to add and CA has the Warhammer license for a few years now there not much room for us seeing other minor factions.

    There are 3 Armybook races, which in and of itself a very significant amount (around 1/5th of the major races of the setting). There are also a fair few races left that are significant enough to be full races in some form or another, such as Kislev, Monos, Legions of Nagash, perhaps Khurgans, Hobgoblin Khanate and Cathay too though they are more shakey. This seems like plenty to base a full game around to me. Also the issue with an expansion is the possible finality of it, will those races be supported afterwards or will they be left with 2 LLs each, perhaps incomplete rosters? The possibility for DLC for DLC is there I guess but we have no guarantee with an expansion as we haven't seen that before. Also an expansion will have less funding than a full game, so the quality will inevitably be reduced, we will also see less innovation and improvement on the formula (better faction mechanics, improvements to existing mechanics, reworks or new mechanics for the campaign, some small examples from game 2 is the improvements to dragons, and also the ability to manually determine the direction of wind spells), of course we do not know what is coming but I have hopes for an overhaul to sieges.

    Personally I see the best way to proceed as the one that offers the most and highest quality content.
  • DerPhonixDerPhonix Senior Member Posts: 411Registered Users
    I'd rather have Chaos undivided as one faction and then one faction for each chaos god. No need for a separate "deamon" faction.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,483Registered Users
    Nurgle isn't slow. Plague Bearers move as fast as regular infantry. They also have plague drones which are flyers. Nurgle is not slow. Nurgle is tanky. Incredibly tanky.

    As to your idea it's pretty good (my sympathies over the prior thread jacking) this sort of idea is in general the best way to do Monos. God vs God packs also use DLCs efficiently. 4 is too many for Monos to use. 2 is just right.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • _Mad_D0c__Mad_D0c_ Posts: 933Registered Users
    brago90 said:

    There is a huge issue with monogods....and daemons of chaos as a whole, no?
    ....they would ALL be hordes, no?

    Having a vanilla-race and all its lord-pack start positions and lords be hordes.....I don`t know about that tbh.

    But as far as demons of chaos go...they would actually need the winds of magic to be strong for them to manifest and to not be easily be banished (when the conditions are not there, demons can actually be rather easy to kill, think of undead ..).....so there could be some form of "expanding" influence that needs to be done or your armies are going to be weak.

    Maybe they will do them similar to the wood elves... you have your "citadel" of your monogod inside the realm of chaos/chaos waste, which will only ever get challenged by other chaos-worshippers inside of it (daemons, norscans, beastmen, chaos dwarves, warriors of chaos rogue armies of such things as chaos ogres etc.)

    and to go further south, you must create summoning sites, portals, obelisks and similar to spread the influence of chaos and to make the winds of magic strong enough so that the demons will not be weak/suffer horrible attrition or just outright can`t go somewhere.

    In the chaos wastes there are several fortresses and settlements so we could see mechanics more similar to Norsca than to a horde. Low-income settlements that force you to attack other territories in order to obtain resources to improve your fortresses and settlements.
    Yeah and to constantly fight there and have the ability to raze enemy fortresses, it is mandatory to have undivided and god aligned factions. The current WoC is one faction, they cant fight other chaos except norsca in the north.

    I give up. i honestly think DoC separate is a horrible idea.
    .

    Nobody here said he want DoC god aligned, they have definitely not enough stuff, think for example of tier 1 khorne units.

    Nobody same would want playable DoC undivided, its a counter argument out of fear of the monogod haters or the ones who have no knowledge about chaos.

    All who mentioned god aligned here, speak of god aligned HoC = Host of Chaos featuring WoC, DoC and some BM which are god aligned.

    Thats why I want the current WoC undivided and 5 new factions, DoC undivided and 4 god aligned HoC factions.
    DerPhonix said:

    I'd rather have Chaos undivided as one faction and then one faction for each chaos god. No need for a separate "deamon" faction.

    You mean current WoC shall be the only undivided with Demon reinforcement in game 3?

  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 5,853Registered Users
    Strictly speaking, Bloodletters probably could be tier 1 if they had a reduced unit size (say, 60 on ultra). They're not that tough - the basic demon infantry are inferior to Chaos Warriors one on one, and with Chaos Warriors being tier 2, a smaller unit of Bloodletters at tier 1 would probably work.

    The problem, of course, is that there are exactly 6 non-character units in the DoC army book that have the Demon of Khorne rule, or which can be given it (Furies, Soulgrinders). Of those, only the Soul Grinder has variants to speak of. There are ways the list could be stretched out, but getting it up to 20+ non-character units would be challenging to say the least, especially if CA also has to do something similar for three other gods.

    God-aligned HoC avoids that problem. It comes with other problems, but those problems are probably easier to resolve.
  • _Mad_D0c__Mad_D0c_ Posts: 933Registered Users
    GS surely could benefit from some horde mechanics, but shouldnt becone a real horde faction.

    The reworked WAAAAGH could be something similar to a horde. Notable here, I dont like the current WAAAAGH armies, they should be cut and exchanged with the following. At the end you can achieve something similar with full control. The fightiness has not to be altered for this.

    WAAAGH goals

    Become bigger

    Sustain the WAAAGH as long as possible

    FIGHTING, RAIDING & SACKING

    How it works

    Once you achieve 80 fightiness your army becomes the WAAAGH morher army and something similar to a horde. Now you have the horde building window but with some tweaks. You will not build buildings, its more like choosing upgrades for the WAAAGH. There will be balancing needed, but I think there shouldnt be growth needed, you pay for one upgrade each turn (gold and/or new second currency). There will be no tier system for the upgrades, you have 10 slots (or less - depending on balance) and can choise out of far more upgrade options than 10.

    Temporary

    All the upgrades are temporary, if the WAAAGH ended, you are no horde anymore. All Buffs and benefits are lost, only recruited lords, heroes and units are there, the question is, have you looted enough or how much need you to disband.

    Upgrades

    You can decide if you want ti focus on replenishment, raiding bonus, recruitment, buffs or from all a bit. Some examples:

    Unit recruiting
    Your mother-WAAAGH can decide to choose the upgrade of recruiting directly with your "horde", one upgrade similar to the building choices in settlements (one for goblins, one for savage orcs and so on). But instead to upgrade each in different tiees, you instantly can recruit the jighest tier you unlocked in your highest settlement = global recruitment. And equal which unit, all recruits will be delivered in 1 round.

    Recruitment buffs
    One upgrade to decrease upkeep one fot recruitment cost in Mother-WAAAGH

    New Lord
    Upgrade to spawn a random level 5 generic lord next to your mother-WAAAGH army.
    Problems are, you need room to recruit in ypur army and exchange currently decrease fightiness.
    Option A : no fightiness decrease if one army is a mother-WAAAGH.
    B : while recruiting the mother-WAAAGH can choise to recruit directly to newly spawned army
    C : while spawning this new army gets instantly 5 units out pf your mother-WAAAGH

    Different buffs
    Several upgraded to buff raiding/sacking, different unit stat buffs and so on

    Downsides

    A mother-WAAAGH army should give public order decrease in your own regions, more decrease for every WAAAGH upgrade. So you will be forced to go to war.


    Do you have something to add, sone more ideas for WAAAGH upgrades?
    My last GS campaign was sone time ago, whats the current amount of rounds you hold the fightiness above 80 and sustain the WAAAGH?
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