Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

How many Ogres would be in a Single unit since they are monsters infantry ?

xXF1aKOXxxXF1aKOXx Posts: 844Registered Users
I feel like 32 Ogres in a unit sounds reasonable

What do you think?

Comments

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,798Registered Users
    Cavalry numbers hopefully. 30 in a unit.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • RikisRikis Posts: 1,227Registered Users
    Depends how "big" they end up being. Could be kroxigor level monstrous infantry with equivalent numbers.

    Although cavalry levels sounds good to me.
  • OdTengriOdTengri Posts: 3,456Registered Users
    Yeah.... considering how comparatively low quality basic Ogres are in comparison to most monstrous infantry they probably should come in larger numbers than most.

    I mean they are probably going to get shrecked by range with 30 or so armor and maybe a bronze shield.

    Either way I'm sure they'll be fairly well balanced when released.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 1,822Registered Users
    We already have an undead version of Ogres in the Vampire Coast roster.

    Normal Ogres will probably have the same unit size
  • ArsenicArsenic Posts: 4,704Registered Users
    Animated Hulks are Ogre corpses with bits and bobs stitched on, so I'll go with how many are in one of their units, 12.
    "Ours is a world of fleeting glory. But it is glory, nonetheless."
  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Posts: 2,543Registered Users
    Just look up which numbers the different monstrous infantry units of all the current races have (Ushabti, Trolls, Minotaurs, etc.) and the Ogre unit number should be in between. Depending of what Ogre regiment we are talking. I can see the standard Ogres having more Ogres then for example a unit of Maneaters.

    ------Red Dox
  • Arcani_4_EverArcani_4_Ever Junior Member Posts: 2,315Registered Users
    They shouldn't be proper Monstrous Infantry and get 16 units at Ultra Sizes, would make them incredibly weak to missiles.

    32 Units at Ultra Sizes is the best solution here. It means 24 units at Very Large, 18 at Normal. Etc.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Posts: 1,183Registered Users
    I think pretty much anything that was monstrous infantry on TT have 16 per unit on ultra unit size. With monstrous cavalry it is much more varying though, 36 for demigryphs, 24 for pegasus knights etc.

    I can see basic ogres and maybe Ironguts having a slightly bigger size, but I doubt above 24 on Ultra. Their elites and specialist troops like leadbelchers and Maneaters certainly should not be above 16. Maneaters were on par with minoutars in TT.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,798Registered Users

    I think pretty much anything that was monstrous infantry on TT have 16 per unit on ultra unit size. With monstrous cavalry it is much more varying though, 36 for demigryphs, 24 for pegasus knights etc.

    I can see basic ogres and maybe Ironguts having a slightly bigger size, but I doubt above 24 on Ultra. Their elites and specialist troops like leadbelchers and Maneaters certainly should not be above 16. Maneaters were on par with minoutars in TT.

    Maneaters were far superior to Minotaurs.

    CA's been playing around with unit size quite a bit lately. While the normal unit size for Maneaters makes sense for bulls not so much. They'd be better served with a larger unit size. Happily this would help differentiate them from the more elite ogres making the latter less of a straight upgrade.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Posts: 1,183Registered Users

    I think pretty much anything that was monstrous infantry on TT have 16 per unit on ultra unit size. With monstrous cavalry it is much more varying though, 36 for demigryphs, 24 for pegasus knights etc.

    I can see basic ogres and maybe Ironguts having a slightly bigger size, but I doubt above 24 on Ultra. Their elites and specialist troops like leadbelchers and Maneaters certainly should not be above 16. Maneaters were on par with minoutars in TT.

    Maneaters were far superior to Minotaurs.

    CA's been playing around with unit size quite a bit lately. While the normal unit size for Maneaters makes sense for bulls not so much. They'd be better served with a larger unit size. Happily this would help differentiate them from the more elite ogres making the latter less of a straight upgrade.
    They were slightly better, but pretty similiar. Both had the same stats, Minotaurs had more impact hits, but Maneaters could get them at a higher stregth. Minoraurs had bloodgreed, while Maneaters could pick 2 special rules from a list. Maneaters could have ranged weapons, but their options for melee weapons were similiar. Overall Maneaters were more versatile, while minotaurs were slightly better as a melee shock unit. "Far superior" is simply not true.

    As for unit size, It would be nice to have big units, but at the same time I don't want them to make the basic ogres weak to compensate for the smaller unit size. And if normal ogres had even larger units with normal monstrous infantry, it might be too strong. Especially since the basic ogres could not be higher than tier 1 or 2 in terms of buildings.
  • CrossilCrossil Posts: 4,906Registered Users
    edited October 18
    I too think that cavalry size, 30 or so, is needed. An annoying feature of TWW is that units that come in numbers higher than 1 don't have their health recorded after battles. So if you have a unit of four chariots that ends the battle at low HP but with all 4 models alive they have perfect health after it ends. Same goes for all units and it's especially noticeable to me with, for instance, Fimir who rarely lose a model despite falling under half, even down to a quarter, of HP and end up fully healed.

    So to simulate realistic loses I think the basic Ogres should be in somewhat larger numbers, 20-30 per unit.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • RiskafishRiskafish Posts: 449Registered Users
    Ogre Bulls cost about 30 points while Empire state troops cost about 8ish. I think that 30 Ogres scaled against 120 swordsmen would be logical.
  • Red_DoxRed_Dox Junior Member Posts: 2,543Registered Users
    edited October 19

    I think pretty much anything that was monstrous infantry on TT have 16 per unit on ultra unit size. With monstrous cavalry it is much more varying though, 36 for demigryphs, 24 for pegasus knights etc.

    I can see basic ogres and maybe Ironguts having a slightly bigger size, but I doubt above 24 on Ultra. Their elites and specialist troops like leadbelchers and Maneaters certainly should not be above 16. Maneaters were on par with minoutars in TT.

    Maneaters were far superior to Minotaurs.

    CA's been playing around with unit size quite a bit lately. While the normal unit size for Maneaters makes sense for bulls not so much. They'd be better served with a larger unit size. Happily this would help differentiate them from the more elite ogres making the latter less of a straight upgrade.
    They were slightly better, but pretty similiar. Both had the same stats, Minotaurs had more impact hits, but Maneaters could get them at a higher stregth. Minoraurs had bloodgreed, while Maneaters could pick 2 special rules from a list. Maneaters could have ranged weapons, but their options for melee weapons were similiar. Overall Maneaters were more versatile, while minotaurs were slightly better as a melee shock unit. "Far superior" is simply not true.
    • Maneasters have one more attack in the profile.
    • While both start with light armor, Maneaters could upgrade to heavy armor.
    • Maneaters had Ballistic Skill 4, which was extremly good...
    • ...while you really undersell the point that the Maneaters had the option to pick up a brace of pistols. Which other races would define as rifles ^^

    • And for winning the prizemoney: a unit got two special rules for free(!), which could not duplicate the same rule for different units of Maneaters. But it is fine, because you just gave the one costly unit you had Poison Attacks (melee and pistols!) and made them Scouts to show up in the enemy starting zone after everyone had finished setting up the army!
    Sure, they cost more at the end then your Minotaurs, but they were worth it. And yes, "Far superior" is true.
    They would threaten an enemy from turn one and were so ridiculous overpowered with 5 melee poison attacks per Ogre and the stand and shoot option with the pistols if getting attacked, that they could do tremendous dmg before being stopped. If stopped at all, since a 24" shooting range gave them the option to harass your warmachines with shooting while not coming near enough to anything that could actually do real dmg to them. And while your Whatever Unit that could actually dmg them has to try and catch them or at least keep them at bay, it was missing from the real frontline where the Irongut doomstack was approaching. Or the equally devestating Mournfang cavalry.
    I have used Maneaters myself and have encountered them a few times as enemies and they always were one of the most fearful and disgusting minmaxed things I could witness on the TT battlefield.

    ------Red Dox
  • SultschiemSultschiem Posts: 1,640Registered Users
    Well, there are solutions:

    Make basic ogres as big as saurus...."they are the younger ones" and the more elite ones are the adult ones.

  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,808Registered Users
    30 on ultra size
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • Ol_NessieOl_Nessie Posts: 3,225Registered Users
    If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

    Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
    Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
    Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
    Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
    Yhetees- 16
    Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry
    Build a Slayer Hero and make Miners, Rangers, and Irondrakes great again! Thorek Ironbrow 2020

  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,808Registered Users
    Ol_Nessie said:

    If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

    Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
    Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
    Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
    Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
    Yhetees- 16
    Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry

    I dont see ogre bulls as tier 1 or 2 but tier 3. Id like to see a unit of ogre bulls come in at 1200
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • SultschiemSultschiem Posts: 1,640Registered Users

    Ol_Nessie said:

    If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

    Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
    Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
    Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
    Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
    Yhetees- 16
    Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry

    I dont see ogre bulls as tier 1 or 2 but tier 3. Id like to see a unit of ogre bulls come in at 1200
    If Ogre bulls are tier 4....it won`t be "ogre kingdoms"...It will be the "Gnoblar Kingdoms" as they and sabretusks would be the only units for tier 1-3....

    Ogre Bulls AND Ironguts are both "Core Units" alongside Gnoblars....yes they are much more expensive there, but given the game....

    Ogre bulls have little armor and no shield.... they will be super vulnerable to any form of missiles.
    Even Ironguts will be vulnerable.....

    Ogre Bulls and Ironguts should be treated similar to the skeleton chariots for tomb kings compared to all other chariots....
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,808Registered Users
    edited October 19

    Ol_Nessie said:

    If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

    Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
    Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
    Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
    Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
    Yhetees- 16
    Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry

    I dont see ogre bulls as tier 1 or 2 but tier 3. Id like to see a unit of ogre bulls come in at 1200
    If Ogre bulls are tier 4....it won`t be "ogre kingdoms"...It will be the "Gnoblar Kingdoms" as they and sabretusks would be the only units for tier 1-3....

    Ogre Bulls AND Ironguts are both "Core Units" alongside Gnoblars....yes they are much more expensive there, but given the game....

    Ogre bulls have little armor and no shield.... they will be super vulnerable to any form of missiles.
    Even Ironguts will be vulnerable.....

    Ogre Bulls and Ironguts should be treated similar to the skeleton chariots for tomb kings compared to all other chariots....
    I said tier 3 not 4.

    And you reach tier 3 in like 15 turns. Agree with low armor and no shield but high hp.
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • Ol_NessieOl_Nessie Posts: 3,225Registered Users

    Ol_Nessie said:

    If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

    Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
    Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
    Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
    Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
    Yhetees- 16
    Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry

    I dont see ogre bulls as tier 1 or 2 but tier 3. Id like to see a unit of ogre bulls come in at 1200
    If Ogre bulls are tier 4....it won`t be "ogre kingdoms"...It will be the "Gnoblar Kingdoms" as they and sabretusks would be the only units for tier 1-3....

    Ogre Bulls AND Ironguts are both "Core Units" alongside Gnoblars....yes they are much more expensive there, but given the game....

    Ogre bulls have little armor and no shield.... they will be super vulnerable to any form of missiles.
    Even Ironguts will be vulnerable.....

    Ogre Bulls and Ironguts should be treated similar to the skeleton chariots for tomb kings compared to all other chariots....
    I said tier 3 not 4.

    And you reach tier 3 in like 15 turns. Agree with low armor and no shield but high hp.
    Even tier 3 is too high in my opinion. If you can't recruit Ogre Bulls from Turn 1, I think you're doing it wrong.
    Build a Slayer Hero and make Miners, Rangers, and Irondrakes great again! Thorek Ironbrow 2020

  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Posts: 7,808Registered Users
    Ol_Nessie said:

    Ol_Nessie said:

    If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

    Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
    Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
    Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
    Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
    Yhetees- 16
    Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry

    I dont see ogre bulls as tier 1 or 2 but tier 3. Id like to see a unit of ogre bulls come in at 1200
    If Ogre bulls are tier 4....it won`t be "ogre kingdoms"...It will be the "Gnoblar Kingdoms" as they and sabretusks would be the only units for tier 1-3....

    Ogre Bulls AND Ironguts are both "Core Units" alongside Gnoblars....yes they are much more expensive there, but given the game....

    Ogre bulls have little armor and no shield.... they will be super vulnerable to any form of missiles.
    Even Ironguts will be vulnerable.....

    Ogre Bulls and Ironguts should be treated similar to the skeleton chariots for tomb kings compared to all other chariots....
    I said tier 3 not 4.

    And you reach tier 3 in like 15 turns. Agree with low armor and no shield but high hp.
    Even tier 3 is too high in my opinion. If you can't recruit Ogre Bulls from Turn 1, I think you're doing it wrong.
    I think, whatever happens, CA will do a great job. They did so for all game 2 races.

    Chaos dwarfs will also be interesting to see.
    Read all my replies as if we are having a pint and a good old time. I will always read your reply like that.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,798Registered Users
    Thanks @Red_Dox for proving that better than I ever could.
    Ol_Nessie said:

    If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

    Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
    Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
    Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
    Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
    Yhetees- 16
    Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry

    Have you heard about Salamanders?

    I do like those sizes though. I'd also have bulls as T2.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • Ol_NessieOl_Nessie Posts: 3,225Registered Users

    Thanks @Red_Dox for proving that better than I ever could.

    Ol_Nessie said:

    If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

    Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
    Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
    Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
    Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
    Yhetees- 16
    Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry

    Have you heard about Salamanders?

    I do like those sizes though. I'd also have bulls as T2.
    Regarding Salamanders, CA did my bois dirty. One Salamander in TW has about a quarter of the health and deal about a third less damage than they should have if they were being faithful to the TT. Compare the Salamander and Kroxigor TT stat lines for reference. I expected them to come in Great Bow Ushabti or Rotting Promethean sized units (12 on Ultra), sort of filling the ranged monstrous infantry role.

    So if you want Ogres to come in 30+ entity units, just understand that a TW Ogre is going to be nowhere near the level of a TT Ogre.
    Build a Slayer Hero and make Miners, Rangers, and Irondrakes great again! Thorek Ironbrow 2020

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,798Registered Users
    Ol_Nessie said:

    Thanks @Red_Dox for proving that better than I ever could.

    Ol_Nessie said:

    If the unit size is too big, the basic units are going to be ridiculously expensive. One Troll cost 35 points on TT, not much more than the 30 for an Ogre. A unit of Trolls in TW costs 800, so all other things being equal, a unit of Ogres at 30+ models is going to be somewhere in the range of 1500-1600. The highest I could see them is 24 and that's if they really tone down their TT stats. So no AP damage, middling MA/MD, and less HP per entity and maybe they can come in under 1,000. On Ultra settings I'd say:

    Basic Ogres- 24, same as Skinwolves but only if they're pretty bog standard
    Ironguts- 16, same as most other Monstrous infantry
    Leadbelchers- 12, same as other ranged Monstrous infantry
    Maneaters- 12-16, depending on how elite CA feels they should be
    Yhetees- 16
    Mournfangs- 10-12, as I see them being more comparable to chariots than other Monstrous cavalry

    Have you heard about Salamanders?

    I do like those sizes though. I'd also have bulls as T2.
    Regarding Salamanders, CA did my bois dirty. One Salamander in TW has about a quarter of the health and deal about a third less damage than they should have if they were being faithful to the TT. Compare the Salamander and Kroxigor TT stat lines for reference. I expected them to come in Great Bow Ushabti or Rotting Promethean sized units (12 on Ultra), sort of filling the ranged monstrous infantry role.

    So if you want Ogres to come in 30+ entity units, just understand that a TW Ogre is going to be nowhere near the level of a TT Ogre.
    Of course. I Just know how you feel about them.

    Bulls at 24 and elites at 12 works for me.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
Sign In or Register to comment.