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A take on a GS Overhaul

Cortes31Cortes31 Registered Users Posts: 1,039
Yo, ya Gits.

One more time lets talk about Greenskins and what they need. We all know that the LP on Festag will not be cross-game and will instead focus on “Quality of Live” improvements. Whatever this is supposed to mean. Also, we all know that the long awaited rework for the Greenskins will come some time in 2020. No idea if this will be early 2020 or late 2020, if there will be a pre-order after that or if this will be the pre-order. Interesting and kind of horrible thought, Greenskins VS High Elves being the pre-order but this would not interfere with the rework anyway and the rework is the core of this thread. Greenskins have various problems but most of them, actually ALL of them, are in one way or another related to the roster.
And overwhelmingly majority of the roster is not endgame-worthy, unless you spam Black Orcs and the tools to support your units are almost completely not existing. They lack in ways to give replenishment and additional recruitment rank for you units, as of now there are only very few ways to do either of it and the tech tree is in a horrible state with way too many blockades. There may be more but this are the ones I can think of without thinking much at all and that is quite sad. Anyway, on to the rework where I will discuss various points and bring on some ideas on how to improve in these aspects which would also target the points I mentioned just now.

Legendary Lords
The first point in my thread is also the first thing that came to my mind when I was planning this. To be more precise, I want to talk about the personal skill-line (or the lack of) each Legendary Lord has. Currently, only Azhag and Grimgor have one, while Skarsnik and Wurzzag have to do without such a line. Sure, they too have some skills or abilities on the top line but everything up there is something I suspect to be taken over by their generic versions. In case of Skarsnik and generic goblin lords is this something that has already happened and I am honestly afraid of Wurzzag suffering from the same fate one day, should Savage Orc Great Shaman get added. Something you may notice below is that every line has at 1 skill for replenishment and at least 1 skill for influencing money. First one was a no-brainer at all, since replenishment is a pretty big problem for Greenskins in general and the second one is pretty fitting for Greenskins in general, I think. I have also reworked the skill lines of Azhag and Grimgor, though I have to say their current line was not even so bad to begin with. The biggest problem I had with them was some numbers being to low but during work I decided to make bigger reworks to make this lines really unique from each other and more impressive in terms of effects. I am not saying my ideas will be better (or happening at all) but I would really like to see some changes.

This line of skills was created with almost one goal and one goal only in mind: Savage Orcs for the win. Ever since Wurzzag came around I wanted to do a campaign using only or mostly Savage Orcs but with no generic lords for them, it is very discouraging when they are lead by other orcs or even goblins. I have no idea if Wurzzag is going to get such a line of skills at all, he already has two lines, one for casting and one for combat but he really needs one.

I will be honest: I have never, not even once, played this little fellow beyond a first couple of turns. His start is simply not my liking but ignoring him on this part would simply be unfair. His line of skills focuses on three points: Hero play, boosting his Night Goblins and Squigs and him being very, very smart.

Grom is here for one reason and one reason only: I full expect him to appear alongside the rework as part of the DLC during 2020 and was thinking how it could look. And I was kind of having too much fun doing this? On a sidenote, his skills reading like titles is done on purpose.

Azhag & Grimgor:
I am putting these two together, since they already had such a skill line and I have incorporated the old effect for an easy comparison. I have mostly done adding effects or increasing some numbers here and there. Just two things, before I let the picture speak for itself: Azhag “The Crowns Aid” works this way because I wanted intercepting an army to be Skarsnik-only and I wanted Azhag to focus even more on building an empire. Grimgor on the other hand has gotten better buffs because I wanted to make him stronger and find a “proper” replacement for not having a mount.

Lords and Heroes
Before I go into details on how I want the lords and heroes reworked, lets count on how many and what we have, okay?
For Orcs we have the Orc Warboss and Orc Shaman. 1 lord and 1 hero.
For Goblins we have the Goblin Great Shaman, the Night Goblin Warboss, Goblin Big Boss and Night Goblin Shaman. 2 lords and 2 heroes.
A total of 4:2 for the Goblin-side. There is some serious and unfair advantage for the goblins here. Yet, even they are missing anything related to Forest Goblins in this regard. Even more, I noticed a pattern. Normal goblins have caster lord and melee hero, Night Goblins have melee lord and caster hero. Orcs have also melee lord and caster hero. They are also lacking any kind of hero or lord for both, Black Orcs and Savage Orcs. Looking at how Goblins have been sorted and at the fact that a Black Orc Shaman does not exist is leading me to the assumption that both, Savage Orc Great Shaman and Savage Orc Big Boss are on their way. Against this speaks the fact that CA has developed a habit of creating generic version of Legendary Lords and with Grom, this would be easily and fitting represented by giving us the Goblin Warboss.
Another Goblin, turning this into 5:2, urgh! Please CA, do the right thing, give us a Savage Orc Great Shaman with the DLC. And since I am already on it, I fully expect the Big Boss, no matter if savage or not, as part of the free rework. He should have been added since day 1 of WH1.
Before I get into specific problems, I want to address the issue with mounts. GS have a horrible selection when it comes to mounts, with only Orc Warboss having a flying mount. I know, Greenskins are not supposed to be a strong, aerial race but only the lord up there makes him way too easy to snipe out or getting munched on by a flying goon squad. On the other hand, the Goblin Shaman has no mount at all. As far as mounts go, I want a bit of a generalized selection:
All Orcs, no matter if hero or lord, get following mounts in this exact order: Boar, Boar Chariot and Wyvern. I have no idea if this fits with armybook or lore and I can honestly say that I do not care. Orcs are in a position where accuracy to these things needs to take a step back compared to gameplay value but this is more about the Wyvern, then the Boar Chariot. I have no idea if we getting Wyvern as a Feral unit with the rework, I hope so but anyway the Orc Warboss needs more support in the air. Right now there is no reason to put him on a Wyvern at all. Well, right now there is no reason to choose an Orc Warboss in general but this will be addressed later on.
For the goblins, I have only two big issues: Night Goblin Shaman having no mount at all and Goblin Great Shaman has only a Giant Wolf as mount. Caster lord with no monstrous mount was fine back in WH1 but now caster lords are riding Dragons, Dinos and whatnot and the Great Shaman needs to be made equal on this regard. The solution for this is the Arachnok Spider as mount. Other mounts, like a chariot, may be added too but the Spider is important and needed. The normal Shaman faces a bit of a problem because armybook 8th edition says no mount for him.

But again gameplay>armybook. Night Goblin Shaman needs a mount. Either the same mount as the lord or a spider like the Goblin Big Boss would do and a Wolf would work too, actually. Mounts, at least one, are a MUST for all generic lords and heroes. Night Goblin Warboss and Goblin Big Boss are actually fine in terms of mounts. I mean, IF a Colossal Squig gets added, I would not mind mounting a Night Goblin Warboss on top of it but as of now they are not part of the game.

With the mounts out of the way, it is time to talk about the specific problems and I already have one to start with:
Please, can anybody explain to me why the Shamans get the Public Order and the Goblin Big Boss gets Untainted? Should the Big Bosses not take care of Public Order? Also, why are both Shamans having the exact same skill-set on the campaign map? No matter what you want them to do, it always the same. This is also something that could or should get reworked but I want to focus on the army effects and local effects. I assume Savage Orc Big Boss will be a thing for this one.
Goblin Big Boss: Is all about money, not matter if with an army or in a local province.
Savage Orc Big Boss: Gets training in an army and Public Order for the province.
Orc Shaman: His army effect remains the same, searching for artefacts, but he gets Untainted on the province.
Goblin Shaman: Gets replenishment for the army and growth for the province.
With this I think they are different enough to make sure all heroes have a use.

Now, I want to go and address each lord and hero specifically.
Night Goblin Warboss:
He is fine. I mean it, there is nothing I know of that should be changed. Getting poison for your entire army is huge, especially this early on and his mount is good too. Sure, he could get a monstrous mount but I don't see the reason for it. Again, he is fine.

Goblin Great Shaman:
His biggest problem is the lack of a monstrous mount and he needs the Arachnok Spider. No way around it. Also not entirely happy about him having the same skills for buffing Night Goblins and Squigs as Night Goblin Warboss and Skarsnik have. But better then nothing and may change when Grom the Magnificent arrives.

Orc Warboss:
Oh boy, he has some real problems. His only advantage is the Wyvern and this gets balanced out by the fact that he is alone up there and pretty much turns into a giant target. Also he has no skills to compete with the Night Goblin Warboss and is, right now, the worst choice of all three lords. However, at least in terms of skills I have some ideas. I would not mind if at leats some of this skills would get transported over to Azhag at least.
Wyvern Tamer: When mounted on a Wyvern lord gets +10 on Melee Defence and Leadership.
Biggest Choppa: Only for the lord, Armour Piercing +20 and Anti Infantry +10
Biggest Boss: For Orc Boyz, Orc Arrer Boyz and Orc Boar Boyz army-wide: Recruitment rank +3, Recruitment cost -30%, Leadership +5
Biggest Boss would lead to Even Bigger Biggest Boss: For Big'uns and Orc Boar Boy Big'uns army-wide: Recruitment rank +3, Recruitment cost -30%, Leadership +5
And, in an attempt to balance out the poison-buff from the Night Goblins, Whaagh Tide: Adds Causes Fear to all units army-wide.

Goblin Big Boss:
Another case of being fine. His greatest value may be him being the Assassin of the Greenskins but nothing wrong with that.

Night Goblin Shaman:
Another case where the mount is the only real problem. Has been addressed above.

Orc Shaman:
His problem is actually not even so much the mount, the Boar is fine, it is rather lack of any kind of unique skill. Top line of skills consists of only the Boar, the skill for increased missile resistance and Immortality. Nothing else. Even the Night Goblin Shaman got something. So, my idea on a nice, little addition:
Whaagh Concentration: Wind of Magic power reserve +5 army-wide
Nothing big, just a little something.

For this one, I worked with the stats I could find at twwstats. Whoever created this page, big thank you from me here.

When I am talking about units on an overhaul, there is one units that comes immediately to my mind: Big'uns. They are considered not worth it and I can understand it. Black Orcs have a higher Armour Piercing value then the combination of AP and Anti Large of the Big'uns. Higher! Considering the difference between the armour values of these two units and the fact that most big targets have either a rather high armour or a lot of speed (or both), I seriously questioning the point of Big'uns in their current role since Black Orcs can do it just better. Now, there is something with them that has bothering me for quite a while now and that is how their anti large has been noted. Not with a simple Anti Large but with “Bigger & 'Arder“ and that is something I have only seen with them. So, why not working with this little extra here and helping the Big'uns in the same case? I have an idea:
“Bigger & 'Arder“ gets turned into a passive buff that is active for as long as Leadership >50% and increases Anti Large by +100%.
Not perfect, personally I think it is barely more then a step in the right direction but it is a step and a rather easy one, I would believe. Also, reduce their recruitment turn times to 1. 2, as it is now, is too long.

Another unit are the normal Orc Boar Boyz. They have a handweapon and a shield. So, why are they considered Shock Cavalry? They should be Melee Cavalry with proper stats. GS already have Chariots and Boar Boy Big'uns for circle charging. They do not need normal Boar Boyz to do the same. The pointlessness of this can become quite easily visible.

Why should I even use the normal Orc Boar Boyz? Savages Ones have the same problems but are a bit different because Savage. But the normal ones? I do not really see a point in them being Shock Cavalry.

There are other units that could be mentioned here but these are the only units I know of right now, that have bigger problems then rebalancing their stats.
Since I am already on the units, there are several units I hope to see getting added one day: Black Orcs with Shield, Stone Trolls, River Trolls, Savage Orc Big Stabba, Goblin Spear Chukka, Feral Wyvern (I would not mind if Feral Wyvern gets a copy-paste in terms of stats from the mount option) and Rogue Idol of Gork and Mork.

For Black Orcs with Shields and the Trolls, I have some stats here
and I gonna work with them to show the difference I think would work.

Black Orcs with Shield:
Stats: Melee Attack -6, Weapon Strength -15, Melee Defence +20
Abilities: Instead of Armoured and Armour Piercing it will be Armourend and Shielded. Preferred with silver shield but bronze is good too.

Stone Trolls:
Stats: Health per Entity +126, Armour +80, Speed -8, Melee Attack -4
Abilities: Adds Armoured and Magic Resistance 50%

River Trolls:
Stats: Charge Bonus -4, Weapon Strength -10
Abilities: Adds Aquatic and “River Trolls Stench” a passive ability that changes enemy Melee Attack and Melee Defence by -20 in space of 50m around this units. Not addable with itself.

Tech tree

We all know the current tech tree. Needs a T3 building to get even started, has also units locked behind buildings and needs a lot of turns for each tech. I would not mind one or two points but all three is definitively too much. I did a bit of rework on the tech tree.
Sidenote: I make no difference between normal Orcs, Savage Orcs or Black Orcs, same goes for Goblins or anything else, until it is explicitly stated otherwise.

The only, real mechanic of the Greenskins is an ai-controlled army that is useless. Straight and simple useless. Passive buffs to the army would be much better I think. Something like +20% to Leadership, Speed, Melee Attack, Weapon Strength, Replenishment rate and maybe even campaign movement range. Just no more ai-armies please, for Greenskins as well as for Beastmen. But Beastmen are an entirely different matter.

Another issue in terms of mechanics is to create a new one. Every rework so far brought at least new mechanic with them and Greenskins, well I would not say that they need one and in fact I think it would add some unique flavour to deny them a new mechanic but I am pretty sure they will get one. At least a second currency. What is more fitting for this then “Theeth”? Generated through missions, battles and aggressive hero actions. But how would this work? Well, I imagine Theeth as some sort of “short-cut”.
Lets say you want to build the Stunty Mine. Needs 4000 Gold and 5 turns to construct. OR needs 8 Theeths. 1 Theeth = 1000 Gold and 1 Theeth = 1 turn to construct. Would not go lower then 1 turn, though.
Lets now say you want some Black Orcs. Needs 1200 Gold and 3 turns to recruit. OR you pay 2 Theeths and get you sweet little Black Orcs already next turn. And since you are already on it, why not spending some more Theeth to increase the recruitment rank? 1 Theeth = 1 recruitment rank and 1 Theeth = 1 turn to recruit. Would not go lower then 1 turn, though. And 1 Theeth = 1 recruitment rank could easily apply to recruitment of heroes and lords as well. And what if you want so speed up your research a bit? No problem here either. Lets just say 1 Theth = 10% research rate and 1 Theeth = 1 turn duration of increased researched rate.

Now, to make it a bit more easier to read:
First way to use Theeth is for constructing. Here it is 1 Theeth = 1000 Gold and 1 Theeth = 1 turn to construct. Would not go lower then 1 turn, though.
Second way to use Theeth would be for recruiting units as well as characters. 1 Theeth = 1 recruitment rank and 1 Theeth = 1 turn to recruit. Would not go lower then 1 turn, though.
Third way to use Theeth would be for researching. 1 Theth = 10% research rate and 1 Theeth = 1 turn duration of increased researched rate.

Does not mean of course this would be the only mechanic they get. I have seen time and time again that people want the norsca-style of confederation and I say why not? It fits and as long as a mechanic is not shared with everyone, looking at you Empire Offices, it is fine.

There is also another, possible mechanic I want to address and that would be a global Whaagh-bar, working a bit like Wulfharts “Empire Mandate” but instead of bringing you new units, it would cause passive, faction-wide bonuses like increased Public Order, Growth, Replenishment and Recruitment ranks or decreased recruitment cost and Upkeep. Could also increase stats like Leadership, Speed, Weapon Strength, Melee Attack and Charge Bonus for example.

Why am I bringing buildings up? I admit, at first glance, the buildings seem to be fine but there is one big problem and that is a lack of landmarks. Sure, they can use a lot of landmarks but I am talking Greenskin-only landmarks. Real Greenskin-only landmarks and there I know only of 3: The Big Fort and Dorks Rock, both located in Black Crag and the last one, Chaos Troll Lair and that one is all the way up in Kislev and I am not even sure if this is really Greenskin-only. There is another one but this is only for Skarsnik and I am not counting it here. What am I sorely missing are at least 1 Landmark for Savage Orcs and/or 1 or 2 additional landmarks for Greenskins as a whole. And I think Ekrund would be a good spot for that.

I would actually give this place 1 Landmark, based on it being Wurzzags starting position and a normal gemstone mine. The mine is based on Ekrunds mines being described as “the richest outside of the World Edge Mountains” with a special mention for ore and gemstone deposits.
Now, for the landmark, I would not mind if it becomes available for Savage Orcs and normal Orcs, as long as the effects remain centred around the Savage Orcs. I thought of following:
Lore-blurb: Send to the Bloody Handz, Wurzzag has taken control over the tribe and ordered the construction of a blessed idol to show all that Gork and Mork are with them.
Tier 1, Da Idol:Recruitment cost -10% for Savage Orc units province-wide, Untainted +2 province-wide
Tier 3, Da big Idol: Recruitment cost -30% for Savage Orc units province-wide, Recruitment rank +2 for Savage Orc units province-wide, Untainted +4 province wide, Leadership +5 during siege province-wide
Tier 5, Da giant Idol:
Recruitment cost -50% for Savage Orc units province-wide, Recruitment cost -10% for Savage Orc units faction-wide, Upkeep -10% for Savage Orc units faction-wide
Recruitment rank +4 for Savage Orc units province-wide, Recruitment rank +2 for Savage Orc units faction-wide
Untainted +8 province-wide, Untainted +3 in adjacent provinces
Leadership +10 during siege province-wide
Income per turn +250
(Would also allow recruitment of Rogue Idol with region-wide recruitment cost -15% and Recruitment rank +2)

There is another point I want to talk about is the lack of high tier buildings. The only time where you actually need to expand into tier 5, not counting the additional building slots since this is obvious, is when you want a Giant. They are right now the only tier5 unit and their building is also the only one at tier5. While I hope that some potential tier5 units gets added in the future(like Feral Wyern and Rogue Idol or some Squigs and maybe CA can create something like Black Orc Boar Riders as MELEE Cavalry since Black Orc Big Boss can also ride a Boar) I also think that some already existing buildings should get an extension of their building line. NOT MOVED, extended! Important difference!
I am thinking of the Shaman Buildings with some additional magical buffs or the Tinkerers with a small buff to research.

With this, I think I have concluded everything I wanted to talk about and will wait for your thoughts. Oh, wait, there is one more thing. I got a name for the DLC:
The Warden and The Paunch.
"In brightest day, in blackest night,
No faction shall escape my sight.
Let those who think deniers are right
Beware my power--Faction Lantern's light!"

Everythime a faction/race is excluded from the trilogy, these games become smaller. RIP Araby and others.


  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,701
    That’s an incredibly long post but with the GS I think it needs to be - and I agree with most of it!

    The existing LLs need something to make the more interesting.

    One of the cool things about the GS is being able to do really thematic armies. We need a sorc shaman generic lord to lead sorc armies and also a sorc hero

    Also Forrest goblins and araknarok mounts would be great to add some flavour to gobbo builds

    Totally agree replenishment is a must

    Also stone and river trolls would be cool
  • crazycakemancrazycakeman Registered Users Posts: 197
    There is a disturbing lack of Mangler squigs in this post...
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,701

    There is a disturbing lack of Mangler squigs in this post...

    Mangler squigs would be a fun unit but I wouldn’t miss them if they weren’t part of an overhaul.

    I would rather have 5 easy fixes (eg sorc & borc hero, stone and river trolls, and sorc shaman lord) than one cool unit that uses all of CA’s resources
  • rafantomasrafantomas Registered Users Posts: 649
    edited October 2019

    THIS, I want this. To be able to see all the data instead of just half. Is this a mod or there's a way to set it like this?
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,342
    I like a lot of this except 3 things:

    Both troll variants you want are frankly completely overpowered. River trolls will make literally any melee engagement a joke and this is especially the case with WAAAGH. Stone trolls are less egregious but are still pretty damn good. These would make regular trolls useless

    And the goblin great shaman on an araknarok, good Lord no. You should know how strong that makes him, caster with monster mount is always very good. I can agree with a squig mount though.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • Theo91Theo91 Registered Users Posts: 1,701
    Why not goblin shaman on araknarok? Skinks can have a stegadon Mount?
  • LukivahLukivah Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 34
    TL;DR - GS is a faction of 30 move speed infantry that rely on a high charge bonus to make up for lack of... everything. Adding more goblins with different colors is cool, but won't fix anything. Let's focus on getting some of the fundamental issues fixed, replenishment, assault units/garrison hero, improved tech tree and blue skill lines.

    There's not much that can be done for GS combat effectiveness in the late game. Their stats are clearly based around empire units with a focus on two of the weakest infantry stats, charge and weapon strength. The faction is literally built from the ground up to die during battles with no armor and no melee defence but unlike...

    Empire has a cast of supporting characters and units that cover their infantry units deficiencies. Empires ranged options and war machine options make up for their slow, lightly armored, cheap melee infantry. With strong and fast cavalry, a wide range of artillery and missile infantry for every occasion and tons of magic lores (including healing).

    Greenskins on the other hand have had all their utility dumped into 40 leadership goblins that function in the exact same manner as the units they are supposed to support, right click and charge into the enemy. With a lack of supporting options for your infantry (there are a few), you end up pigeon-holed into just taking the best infantry option you can, whichever Orc variant is available at the time.

    One look at the roster and you see how limited you truly are during a campaign. Out of 24 units (ignoring Savage/Fanatic/Ror variants), only 11 are truly viable and 3 of these (Squig Hopper, Arachnarok, and Doom Diver) are gated behind technologies. All the goblins, Riders (including archer variants), and missile infantry are underwhelming. Can you FORCE them into your army and get some use out of them? Of course, but you would be better just adding another Orc Boyz, Big 'Unz, Black Orc, or Troll if they are available.

    So what else does GS have that sets them apart from Empire? Numbers, right? Well no, apart from the first 10 turns where you might still be trying to slam goblins into state troops, your unit sizes arent more numerous. By the time late game comes around even Dwarfs are matching or outnumbering you.

    I don't believe any of this can be fixed with an overhaul or update without basically recreating the faction from scratch, which isn't going to happen. That's why my focus has always been on just fixing their most glaring issues, replenishment, assault units/garrison hero, better blue skill line, and a new tech tree. Adding another 5 goblin units and putting a lord on the New World surrounded by High Elves, Dark Elves, Lizardmen, and Skaven with a roster full of goblins isn't going to help the faction.

    TL;DR - GS is a faction of 30 move speed infantry that rely on a high charge bonus to make up for lack of... everything. Adding more goblins with different colors is cool, but won't fix anything. Let's focus on getting some of the fundamental issues fixed, replenishment, assault units/garrison hero, improved tech tree and blue skill lines.

  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,342
    Orc arrer Boyz arent actually bad tho. Good AP damage for the cost, and more importantly, cheap enough.

    Also, greenskins shouldn't have even decent skirmishers. They already have great skirmishing cav.
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • LukivahLukivah Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 34
    When you say they have "great skirmishing cav." do you mean great as in THE worst skirmishing cav in the entire game with the lowest damage?
  • Cortes31Cortes31 Registered Users Posts: 1,039
    Seldkam said:

    And the goblin great shaman on an araknarok, good Lord no. You should know how strong that makes him, caster with monster mount is always very good. I can agree with a squig mount though.

    Good Lord YES! He needs it!

    Use the link under the picture. Leading to the same site.

    Very good post and since you mentioned it, I see that I forgot the blue skill line. :|

    "In brightest day, in blackest night,
    No faction shall escape my sight.
    Let those who think deniers are right
    Beware my power--Faction Lantern's light!"

    Everythime a faction/race is excluded from the trilogy, these games become smaller. RIP Araby and others.
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