Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Frostheart Phoenix's purpose

UberReptilianUberReptilian Posts: 158Registered Users
What is the point of it? It seems like a straight downgrade from the Flamespyre version while costing more. It loses Rebirth, fire resistance/flaming attacks and charge bonus. Tradeoff is the blizzard aura ability which is alright but no where near as useful as the flame bombs IMO. I'm no regular High Elf player, (need my Eltharion first) so I'm curious what the High Elf players think. Do I need to git gud or does it need a buff?
«1

Comments

  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users

    What is the point of it?

    Mirror and blob vs VC.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,237Registered Users
    It has much better stats, especially MD and its -9 MA Aura make it much more resilient and much less vulnerable in prolongued melee.

    Flame Phoenix is basically a silghtly worse Eagle in terms of stats, but has AP, terror and bombs.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,293Registered Users
    It's okay but I think a cost reduction is needed. It can be decent in theory in aerial fights too thanks to aura and stats.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,712Registered Users
    Loupi_ said:

    It's okay but I think a cost reduction is needed. It can be decent in theory in aerial fights too thanks to aura and stats.

    This, it's a bit expensive. If you for example compare it to a stripped down morathi with her auras you'll see it's a bit cost-inefficient it is as a debuffer. They are not directly comparable, quite a few pros and cons there, but over all I would prefer stripped down morathi for her melee capabilities as well. Maybe it needs a bit more spash to matter, it's animations are not very good.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    edited October 21

    If you for example compare it to a stripped down morathi with her auras you'll see it's a bit cost-inefficient it is as a debuffer.

    Morathi are LL Lord, there is little point to compare it to simple unit.
    Personaly if i play VC i hate Frost phoenix, cause VC do lack MA stats and this debuff are painful and bird just do not die. Plus it is good in mirror due nonFire attack type.

    Vs other factions it is feels somewhat expensive. IMHO i would have added magic resist to it, just due to brets matchup.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 326Registered Users
    It's super tanky, much more so than its stats suggest for some reason (hitbox/animations?), but it could do with -50 gold probably. Then again, I really wouldn't like this thing to become a staple unit, as it's the ultimate blob-encourager and HE single entity blobs are already really nasty since Alarielle. So personally, I'd leave it a niche unit as is or make it cheaper but change its aura to a slow effect like the frostwyrm.
  • CirdanCirdan Posts: 549Registered Users
    FP is niché at best in my opinion, although some people seems to have success with it.

    In my opinion, the price point is a problem, which puts it in a weird spot. If you want a flying monster you generally pay 300 more for a moon dragon, which have way more utility.

    If you want a budget flier you take a fire phoenix.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,712Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    If you for example compare it to a stripped down morathi with her auras you'll see it's a bit cost-inefficient it is as a debuffer.

    Morathi are LL Lord, there is little point to compare it to simple unit.
    Personaly if i play VC i hate Frost phoenix, cause VC do lack MA stats and this debuff are painful and bird just do not die. Plus it is good in mirror due nonFire attack type.

    Vs other factions it is feels somewhat expensive. IMHO i would have added magic resist to it, just due to brets matchup.
    The comparison to morathi is just to put it into relation to something, LL or not, I mean it's not like we are about to watch double frost pigeon builds. :wink: Her auras are a bit OP though imo, but still. Hers are like 2-3 times as good for about the same cost if you want debuffing done.

    Otherwise yeah, it's definitely a potential carrier of more magic resists, and it is decent vs Bret and Liz too so it could make it a niche pick in a few matchups. I know it has been suggested but I don't know if anyone really picked up on the idea.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,293Registered Users
    edited October 21
    Yeah magic resist aura has been suggested by a lot of people in the past, it could be very strong depending on how much it is, e.g. hellebrons magic resist item is quite strong vs bretonnia, but its also quite an expensive item. I'd rather give the magic resist to Scions of mathlann ROR spears, and just make articuno cheaper.

    P.S this new malekith profile picture is sweet but where is Orion at?
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 383Registered Users
    It's pretty crippling. Seems a bit unwieldy outside of specific matchups. If you wanted to make it more worthy of its price then give it frostbite attacks and call it there I say. The flame version is typically more useful because flaming attacks are very valuable.
  • ParmigianoParmigiano Posts: 750Registered Users
    Underrated, maybe +10 armor or -25g.
  • DeludeDelude Posts: 299Registered Users

    It's pretty crippling. Seems a bit unwieldy outside of specific matchups. If you wanted to make it more worthy of its price then give it frostbite attacks and call it there I say. The flame version is typically more useful because flaming attacks are very valuable.

    No way to frostbite attacks imho. Half the time I see one of these it's combined with a star dragon and Larry support. If the Pheonix, with its VERY high speed, could apply frostbite, its ability to isolate a lord or other target for gooning would increase exponentially.

    I'm not convinced it needs a buff, but I'm still not opposed to something smaller, like -50g, to make it feel more worth taking.

    I'd be happier to see this buff if Star of Avelorn was finally addressed, however.
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian Posts: 158Registered Users
    Thank you kindly for the feedback, guess I need to experiment more with it. Would adding frostbite and +25-50g be alright or overkill? Frostbite would be real neat indeed.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,712Registered Users
    Not to be cranky but I don't think that would help it too much. Frostbite is great when stacked with poison or other skills, but alone on a pigeon with slow infantry killing and in a faction with access to long range archers and nets, but not poison.... It wouldn't be useless but not that great either. I would find magic resist aura much more useful.
  • DeludeDelude Posts: 299Registered Users

    Thank you kindly for the feedback, guess I need to experiment more with it. Would adding frostbite and +25-50g be alright or overkill? Frostbite would be real neat indeed.

    To give it Frostbite without unbalancing it, you'd have to make it prohibitively expensive, and thus ensuring it's almost never taken. The chief problem the bird has now is its cost. For the cost, what you get is fine, but it's a niche thing to want a small specialized SEM, and often a pair of Eagles does the trick as well.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,712Registered Users
    Delude said:

    Thank you kindly for the feedback, guess I need to experiment more with it. Would adding frostbite and +25-50g be alright or overkill? Frostbite would be real neat indeed.

    To give it Frostbite without unbalancing it, you'd have to make it prohibitively expensive, and thus ensuring it's almost never taken. The chief problem the bird has now is its cost. For the cost, what you get is fine, but it's a niche thing to want a small specialized SEM, and often a pair of Eagles does the trick as well.
    That's completely opposite, the function of the pigeon is good, but it's not very cost efficient compared to a moon dragon or flame phoenix.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Posts: 1,356Registered Users
    Frostbite would be too OP.
    Things like Chillgheists are viable despite being expensive ethereals only due to slow. Slows on fast units are very strong abilities in game.
    IMHO magic resist would not be balance breaking and would help in Bret matchup. I would have looked in this way.

    Not to be cranky but I don't think that would help it too much. Frostbite is great when stacked with poison

    You know that HE have Poison on range unit?
    Slow on fast, hard to kill unit would be too strong.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,712Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Frostbite would be too OP.
    Things like Chillgheists are viable despite being expensive ethereals only due to slow. Slows on fast units are very strong abilities in game.
    IMHO magic resist would not be balance breaking and would help in Bret matchup. I would have looked in this way.

    Not to be cranky but I don't think that would help it too much. Frostbite is great when stacked with poison

    You know that HE have Poison on range unit?
    Slow on fast, hard to kill unit would be too strong.
    tank3487 said:

    Frostbite would be too OP.
    Things like Chillgheists are viable despite being expensive ethereals only due to slow. Slows on fast units are very strong abilities in game.
    IMHO magic resist would not be balance breaking and would help in Bret matchup. I would have looked in this way.

    Not to be cranky but I don't think that would help it too much. Frostbite is great when stacked with poison

    You know that HE have Poison on range unit?
    Slow on fast, hard to kill unit would be too strong.
    Not in practice
  • Meteor18Meteor18 Posts: 69Registered Users
    tank3487 said:

    Frostbite would be too OP.
    Things like Chillgheists are viable despite being expensive ethereals only due to slow. Slows on fast units are very strong abilities in game.
    IMHO magic resist would not be balance breaking and would help in Bret matchup. I would have looked in this way.

    Not to be cranky but I don't think that would help it too much. Frostbite is great when stacked with poison

    You know that HE have Poison on range unit?
    Slow on fast, hard to kill unit would be too strong.
    Waywatchers' clownish clones are restricted to Nagarythe faction. Why anyone wants to bring them is beyond me though, when Shadow Warriors are better both in ranged and in the melee, and they are 250 gold cheaper, and you don't have to sacrifice your best lord options to access them.
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian Posts: 158Registered Users
    Seems to me then if the unit is alright than maybe some magic defence? Flame version has 70 FR, so maybe 30 MR to keep it balanced and then a patch later -25g and if it performs the same?
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,237Registered Users
    Meteor18 said:

    tank3487 said:

    Frostbite would be too OP.
    Things like Chillgheists are viable despite being expensive ethereals only due to slow. Slows on fast units are very strong abilities in game.
    IMHO magic resist would not be balance breaking and would help in Bret matchup. I would have looked in this way.

    Not to be cranky but I don't think that would help it too much. Frostbite is great when stacked with poison

    You know that HE have Poison on range unit?
    Slow on fast, hard to kill unit would be too strong.
    Waywatchers' clownish clones are restricted to Nagarythe faction. Why anyone wants to bring them is beyond me though, when Shadow Warriors are better both in ranged and in the melee, and they are 250 gold cheaper, and you don't have to sacrifice your best lord options to access them.
    No, they're not better, neither in ranged nor in melee.

    Shadow Walker are basically Wardancers with less models. They will trounce Empire Halberds in melee while barely dropping a model.

    They're good, it's just that they're only available to Nagarythe.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,171Registered Users
    Frostheart should be priced ~1550g to be competitive.
  • UagrimUagrim Posts: 657Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Frostheart should be priced ~1550g to be competitive.

    That is a price drop of 100 gold which is quiet a bit.

    -50 would be a better start
  • Meteor18Meteor18 Posts: 69Registered Users


    No, they're not better, neither in ranged nor in melee.

    Shadow Walker are basically Wardancers with less models. They will trounce Empire Halberds in melee while barely dropping a model.

    They're good, it's just that they're only available to Nagarythe.

    Shadow Walkers are a waste of time and space even by HE standards. Comparing them with Wardancers is pointless, Dancers have 30 more models, 1400 more HP, 20% Physical and their high MD isn't tied to Martial Prowess. Empire Halberds are the worst units to deal with both Shadow Walkers and Shadow Warriors however and the latter can deal with them just as efficiently, and honestly paying as much as Sisters of Avelorn (who are underwhelming themselves, just not nearly as bad as SWs) and Waywatchers to deal with Halberds is a horrible investment.
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian Posts: 158Registered Users
    Opened a new thread for you guys so the Pheonix isn't completely derailed and closed lol.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,167Registered Users
    It's all about the - 8 aura, it helps to win air battles if you are outnumbered.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,237Registered Users
    Meteor18 said:


    No, they're not better, neither in ranged nor in melee.

    Shadow Walker are basically Wardancers with less models. They will trounce Empire Halberds in melee while barely dropping a model.

    They're good, it's just that they're only available to Nagarythe.

    Shadow Walkers are a waste of time and space even by HE standards. Comparing them with Wardancers is pointless, Dancers have 30 more models, 1400 more HP, 20% Physical and their high MD isn't tied to Martial Prowess. Empire Halberds are the worst units to deal with both Shadow Walkers and Shadow Warriors however and the latter can deal with them just as efficiently, and honestly paying as much as Sisters of Avelorn (who are underwhelming themselves, just not nearly as bad as SWs) and Waywatchers to deal with Halberds is a horrible investment.
    Well, point is, after they spend their ammo, they perform like 2/3 of unit of Wardancers, I'd rate it at roughly 550-600 worth of melee prowess, due to high stats, BvI and poison.

    If they were in regular HE roster, I wager you'd see a lot more of them, especially one or two as complement to Shadow Warriors.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,293Registered Users
    So to summarise options for frosty:
    -50 to 100 cost (simple and easy fix)
    -frostbite or chilling aura (chilling aura would be much stronger than frostbite and would probably need price increase. I don't think frostbite would be too strong)
    -magic resist aoe (either tied to attuned to magic or separate effect)
    -rework of attuned to magic (increased wardsave or make it aoe magic resist e.g. 22%)
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian Posts: 158Registered Users
    Heiß gut. I'd like frostbite or Magic resist, but for the sake of balance -50g would be a great deal. Thank you kindly @Loupi_
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Posts: 3,237Registered Users
    Loupi_ said:

    So to summarise options for frosty:
    -50 to 100 cost (simple and easy fix)
    -frostbite or chilling aura (chilling aura would be much stronger than frostbite and would probably need price increase. I don't think frostbite would be too strong)
    -magic resist aoe (either tied to attuned to magic or separate effect)
    -rework of attuned to magic (increased wardsave or make it aoe magic resist e.g. 22%)

    So, more stacking auras?

    I don't like that idea.

    If cost needs to be dropped by 50, drop it, but I'm not sure it does.
Sign In or Register to comment.