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Hell pit abominations

ptavangarptavangar Posts: 1,148Registered Users
Simple post. Hell pit abominations should probably have magical attacks. They are warpstone infused creatures and have a warpstone brazier of sorts that they do use in combat. Enough said.
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Comments

  • LamentationsLamentations Posts: 100Registered Users
    There are several skaven units using warp stone weapons that don’t have magic damage due to balancing. While I would prefer the more consistent approach this has been fine for balance so far.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,167Registered Users
    Consistency is a must, and comes together with balance. Sure give them magic attacks.
  • SeldkamSeldkam Senior Member Posts: 4,107Registered Users
    Maybe it would help vs large targets with physical resistance of which there are quite a few. Not sure the skaven need the help though...
    The inferior races of this world will be crushed one by one, as our armies move from shore to shore, and hill to hill, and city to city-- and each of their cries will be as music to our ears, for we are the Druchii.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,678Registered Users
    ptavangar said:

    Simple post. Hell pit abominations should probably have magical attacks. They are warpstone infused creatures and have a warpstone brazier of sorts that they do use in combat. Enough said.

    That's not what HPA's need.

    1.Too horrible to die must change. Losing a 1800 monster with near 1000 HP to spare to random chance is pure BS
    2.The animations must be fixed, they too often connect and yet do zero damage

  • glosskilosglosskilos Posts: 1,160Registered Users
    Well balanced unit overall, it’s great at what it’s designed to do and terrible at everything else. I do agree on changing the too horrible to die though
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,678Registered Users
    edited October 20

    Well balanced unit overall, it’s great at what it’s designed to do and terrible at everything else. I do agree on changing the too horrible to die though

    It's UP thanks to buggy animations. The worst are the sync animations it has against the Carnosaur and dragons, which look impressive but do always 0 damage and so allow those monsters to steal the win since they don't have to rely on buggy animations to dish damage. The Carnosaur also has a sync animation agains the HPA (which does also 0 damage) but it triggers far less.

    Hey, @CA, if you don't intend to fix those animations, REMOVE them!

  • ystyst Posts: 6,069Registered Users
    The worst of the worst aspect about them is frikking dying randomly, made the regen completely useless.

    - Too horrible to die must be change to work exactly like tyrions heart which procs 100% or rework into something thats actually useful
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,712Registered Users
    It's not really UP at all. It fills a clear role in the roster.

    The proc can be bad and repeatedly good too. These rng with huge effects are annoying, same with flame phoenix.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,678Registered Users

    It's not really UP at all. It fills a clear role in the roster.

    The proc can be bad and repeatedly good too. These rng with huge effects are annoying, same with flame phoenix.

    No, it's massively UP. Buggy animtions mean it loses against a lot of other monsters and RNG on a 1800 monsters is inexcusable. The Phoenix is cheaper, way better protected (flies, physical resist, faster) its HP threshold is lower and when its ability procs it gets ALL of its HP back. Not comparable.

  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,172Registered Users

    It's not really UP at all. It fills a clear role in the roster.

    The proc can be bad and repeatedly good too. These rng with huge effects are annoying, same with flame phoenix.

    No, it's massively UP. Buggy animtions mean it loses against a lot of other monsters and RNG on a 1800 monsters is inexcusable. The Phoenix is cheaper, way better protected (flies, physical resist, faster) its HP threshold is lower and when its ability procs it gets ALL of its HP back. Not comparable.
    Solution: give Phoenix to Skaven and the trash Hellpit to HE. Should be a no brainer, according to you one of them is OP.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,678Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    It's not really UP at all. It fills a clear role in the roster.

    The proc can be bad and repeatedly good too. These rng with huge effects are annoying, same with flame phoenix.

    No, it's massively UP. Buggy animtions mean it loses against a lot of other monsters and RNG on a 1800 monsters is inexcusable. The Phoenix is cheaper, way better protected (flies, physical resist, faster) its HP threshold is lower and when its ability procs it gets ALL of its HP back. Not comparable.
    Solution: give Phoenix to Skaven and the trash Hellpit to HE. Should be a no brainer, according to you one of them is OP.
    How about just unbugging the HPA animations and making THTD not RNG dependent? Too complicated?

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,712Registered Users

    It's not really UP at all. It fills a clear role in the roster.

    The proc can be bad and repeatedly good too. These rng with huge effects are annoying, same with flame phoenix.

    No, it's massively UP. Buggy animtions mean it loses against a lot of other monsters and RNG on a 1800 monsters is inexcusable. The Phoenix is cheaper, way better protected (flies, physical resist, faster) its HP threshold is lower and when its ability procs it gets ALL of its HP back. Not comparable.
    It's not massively up.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,678Registered Users

    It's not really UP at all. It fills a clear role in the roster.

    The proc can be bad and repeatedly good too. These rng with huge effects are annoying, same with flame phoenix.

    No, it's massively UP. Buggy animtions mean it loses against a lot of other monsters and RNG on a 1800 monsters is inexcusable. The Phoenix is cheaper, way better protected (flies, physical resist, faster) its HP threshold is lower and when its ability procs it gets ALL of its HP back. Not comparable.
    It's not massively up.
    Sorry, but it is. Fact.

  • ReymReym Posts: 478Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    It's not really UP at all. It fills a clear role in the roster.

    The proc can be bad and repeatedly good too. These rng with huge effects are annoying, same with flame phoenix.

    No, it's massively UP. Buggy animtions mean it loses against a lot of other monsters and RNG on a 1800 monsters is inexcusable. The Phoenix is cheaper, way better protected (flies, physical resist, faster) its HP threshold is lower and when its ability procs it gets ALL of its HP back. Not comparable.
    Solution: give Phoenix to Skaven and the trash Hellpit to HE. Should be a no brainer, according to you one of them is OP.
    How about just unbugging the HPA animations and making THTD not RNG dependent? Too complicated?
    I really don't see which animation are buggy (you know the thing could just fail it's attack test like every other unit), I literally never had problem with my HPA and find it helpful if not decisive in a lot of MU.

    About THTD (and other equivalent like the passive of the flame phoenix) could really use to not kill the monster when failing, the exemple below being quite telling of how "frustrating" it can be to lose a unit while it has "won" its fight.

    https://www.noelshack.com/2019-43-1-1571652419-20191021114903-1.jpg
    https://www.noelshack.com/2019-43-1-1571652418-20191021120103-1.jpg
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • UberReptilianUberReptilian Posts: 160Registered Users
    I'd rather see them fix the animations and Too horrible to die and see how it affects performance before buffing it, similar to the Dread Saurian.
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,172Registered Users

    Green0 said:

    It's not really UP at all. It fills a clear role in the roster.

    The proc can be bad and repeatedly good too. These rng with huge effects are annoying, same with flame phoenix.

    No, it's massively UP. Buggy animtions mean it loses against a lot of other monsters and RNG on a 1800 monsters is inexcusable. The Phoenix is cheaper, way better protected (flies, physical resist, faster) its HP threshold is lower and when its ability procs it gets ALL of its HP back. Not comparable.
    Solution: give Phoenix to Skaven and the trash Hellpit to HE. Should be a no brainer, according to you one of them is OP.
    How about just unbugging the HPA animations and making THTD not RNG dependent? Too complicated?
    Nah I'd rather take the UP HPA and give you the very, very OP Flamespyre. You yourself said Flamespyre is massively better I don't see the issue.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Posts: 4,372Registered Users
    These new profile pics are insane :D

    But yeah its probably a good option, its not like HPA are op


  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,712Registered Users

    It's not really UP at all. It fills a clear role in the roster.

    The proc can be bad and repeatedly good too. These rng with huge effects are annoying, same with flame phoenix.

    No, it's massively UP. Buggy animtions mean it loses against a lot of other monsters and RNG on a 1800 monsters is inexcusable. The Phoenix is cheaper, way better protected (flies, physical resist, faster) its HP threshold is lower and when its ability procs it gets ALL of its HP back. Not comparable.
    It's not massively up.
    Sorry, but it is. Fact.
    It's a fact that you think so, no surprise there.
  • Cukie251Cukie251 Posts: 918Registered Users
    Eh, I think one could make the real argument that you get a much more versatile and safe army if you just combine rat ogres and the new skaven ranged tools. I'm not really sure the HPA has aged all that well, its so niche and so vulnerable in a roster that doesn't really need to rely on it anymore.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,678Registered Users
    edited October 21
    Reym said:

    Green0 said:

    It's not really UP at all. It fills a clear role in the roster.

    The proc can be bad and repeatedly good too. These rng with huge effects are annoying, same with flame phoenix.

    No, it's massively UP. Buggy animtions mean it loses against a lot of other monsters and RNG on a 1800 monsters is inexcusable. The Phoenix is cheaper, way better protected (flies, physical resist, faster) its HP threshold is lower and when its ability procs it gets ALL of its HP back. Not comparable.
    Solution: give Phoenix to Skaven and the trash Hellpit to HE. Should be a no brainer, according to you one of them is OP.
    How about just unbugging the HPA animations and making THTD not RNG dependent? Too complicated?
    I really don't see which animation are buggy (you know the thing could just fail it's attack test like every other unit), I literally never had problem with my HPA and find it helpful if not decisive in a lot of MU.

    About THTD (and other equivalent like the passive of the flame phoenix) could really use to not kill the monster when failing, the exemple below being quite telling of how "frustrating" it can be to lose a unit while it has "won" its fight.

    https://www.noelshack.com/2019-43-1-1571652419-20191021114903-1.jpg
    https://www.noelshack.com/2019-43-1-1571652418-20191021120103-1.jpg
    I just spelled it out. Pit a HPA against a Carnosaur and its DPS will plummet because it will frequently use a sync animation that does 0 damage. Also, even chaff infantry is near unkillable by the HPA because its buggy animations so often fail to do any damage and the stats of the HPA aren't so low as to explain it with constant misses.

    The only unit it can beat on its own without support are trolls because they get terror-routed thanks to low LD. Everything else the HPA struggles with.

  • ZafrasZafras Posts: 109Registered Users
    edited October 22
    HPA is **** I agree. If we get clan moulder like people say maybe it will get some help or RoR for it even though the new RoR are just for the new stuff but you never know.

    Don't try to bypass the word filter.
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,172Registered Users
    edited October 22
    Zafras said:

    HPA is **** I agree. If we get clan moulder like people say maybe it will get some help or RoR for it even though the new RoR are just for the new stuff but you never know.

    Don't try to bypass the word filter.

    what part of it is **** exactly? I'm curious I use it fairly frequently and I think it performs very well.

    Is it 1v1 performance vs monsters? Or killing infantry? Or LD problems?

    Pls don't answer "all of the above".
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,358Registered Users
    Abomb's THTD is really the worst part of it by far. Otherwise its sustained combat stats are pretty trash for a monster at that price point, even with the BvsL factored in, which is a bit of a problem. I usually use death frenzy with them though, so I've never seen them prove incapable in the niche situations I bring them in. It is however true that they're probably a lot less appealing than 1 rat ogre+2 PWG's or 1xRat Ogre+1xJezzail or whatever for your monster killing needs.
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  • Green0Green0 Posts: 5,172Registered Users
    Wyvern2 said:

    Abomb's THTD is really the worst part of it by far. Otherwise its sustained combat stats are pretty trash for a monster at that price point, even with the BvsL factored in, which is a bit of a problem.

    what? No it's not, it's good... you pay for BvL, 9000 HP with regen and a bit for THTD yeah. It's decent in duels tbh. Can sort of hold its ground vs stuff like Shaggoths or Moondragon- tier of Dragons.

    Skaven shouldn't have a top tier BvL unit anyway, within the roster HPA is very very solid and I see it used often. Especially regen over a long attritious battle can't be ignored.
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Posts: 383Registered Users
    HPA+summon, +rat ogres, +etc etc

    Don't tell me that a ranged and swarm faction has to have a monster that is unconditionally cost effective. Too Horrible to Die also is more like a 50% chance to lose the game to its ability, or otherwise the monster itself is just mediocre but a persistent threat.

    Something something monster
    Something something fighting 1v1 is bad-bad
  • MaxPowersMaxPowers Posts: 17Registered Users
    I would make a few changes to THTD, perhaps having it trigger at 5%hp so you get a bit more value instead of losing a 1000+hp unit. Also when the healing procs it should also get a boost to leadership and vigor as too often does it proc but it then breaks and is routed off the field. Another addition could be that if it does die from THTD it could explode instead of summoning slaves, dealing minor damage to infantry units and disrupting formations.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 20,678Registered Users
    THDT should not be a 50:50 mechanic at all. It should always trigger but instead of giving back a fixed amount of HP, have it increase the regeneration rate.

    The animations need to be debugged, no questions asked. It's currently not worth 1800g. It's not even worth 1600g.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Posts: 3,712Registered Users

    THDT should not be a 50:50 mechanic at all. It should always trigger but instead of giving back a fixed amount of HP, have it increase the regeneration rate.

    The animations need to be debugged, no questions asked. It's currently not worth 1800g. It's not even worth 1600g.

    And yet top players bring them. It's true that nobody would pick them if they had been in the chaos roster, but they do fill a niche in the skaven roster for sure, and they are in the skaven roster...

    All 50% proc abilities in the game are pretty bad ideas, I think they should all get an overhaul.

  • GeneralConfusionGeneralConfusion Posts: 902Registered Users
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    It's not really UP at all. It fills a clear role in the roster.

    The proc can be bad and repeatedly good too. These rng with huge effects are annoying, same with flame phoenix.

    No, it's massively UP. Buggy animtions mean it loses against a lot of other monsters and RNG on a 1800 monsters is inexcusable. The Phoenix is cheaper, way better protected (flies, physical resist, faster) its HP threshold is lower and when its ability procs it gets ALL of its HP back. Not comparable.
    Solution: give Phoenix to Skaven and the trash Hellpit to HE. Should be a no brainer, according to you one of them is OP.
    How about just unbugging the HPA animations and making THTD not RNG dependent? Too complicated?
    Nah I'd rather take the UP HPA and give you the very, very OP Flamespyre. You yourself said Flamespyre is massively better I don't see the issue.

    God, yes please! A flyer in the Skaven roster? With a bomb ability? I'll take two. The Skaven may not be able to heal it but they could give it incredible fire support from the ground.
  • DatHomieSilverSurferDatHomieSilverSurfer Posts: 125Registered Users
    edited October 22

    HPA+summon, +rat ogres, +etc etc

    Don't tell me that a ranged and swarm faction has to have a monster that is unconditionally cost effective. Too Horrible to Die also is more like a 50% chance to lose the game to its ability, or otherwise the monster itself is just mediocre but a persistent threat.

    Something something monster
    Something something fighting 1v1 is bad-bad

    yea, and the Hellpit Abom isn't even that terrrible. In fact, compared to every other big bwoi monster in the game, it's decidedly average, and is good enough at engaging/locking down other huge expensive monsters long enough to get wrecked by whatever else Skrolk/Ikit/the gang are packing.

    if your opponent is packing a ton of mammoths/dinos, nonthing else in the skaven roster can keep the heavy mass dudes at bay as much as the abom.
    sure, most other factions aren't paying 1800 gold for a glorified pincushion, but they also don't have many other units with the utility/cost efficiency of skaven slaves/rat ogres or the damage per gold cost of jezzails, ratling guns, liber bubonicus, or warp lightning.


    i think there are quite a few crappy/overcosted/too high micro-overhead units in the skaven roster (warlord on bonebreaker, OG halberd stormvermin,globadiers) but there are also a slew of great efficient options. To be honest, I'm incredibly excited for the inevitable Hellpit Abomination RoR we get with the moulder DLC
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