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Item/abilities Changes for Heroes

OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,388Registered Users
This post is about collecting all the lacklustre items in the game that need a buff or need to be swapped out for the heroes that have them. Will going faction by faction listing the item with its current effects. Comparing game 1 to game 2 items there does seem to be better items in general on game 2 heroes, however quite often the heroes are more expensive so might be by design. Focusing on heroes because as you can take heroes in any build (as opposed to lords) shaking them up will lead to more diverse play options as they synergise in various ways with different lords.

High Elves
Handmaiden - Enchanted Spyglass: Cost 160, gives +10% missile damage in a 40m AOE constantly. I'm not sure what the intended design for this was but it seems pretty weak as it only effect missile damage (so not AP). May be designed to have a Handmaiden riding with Ellyrian Reaver Archers (so also being able to take item that buffs MA & Reload Skill) but at 160 seems too expensive. Either drop the price or increase the added missile damage to +20%.

Skaven
Plague Priest - Pipes of Piebald: Cost 56, reduces charge speed by 4% and charge bonus by 8% in a 55m radius constantly. At least this item is cheap, because it is fairly terrible. Don't think I have ever once seen it brought, although with only minor buffs I could see it being able to have at least as much impact as spending the cost on chevrons. Buff both the bonuses by +2%.

Tomb Kings
Necrotect - Wrath of the Creator: cost 79, +5% AP & +5 MA to constructs in 30m. Seems like a good item but is virtually never brought. Would buff the AOE to being 40m as this seems more designed to help a frontline necrotect amongst the infantry.

Necrotect - Stone Shaper: cost 157, +15 armour & +10% missile resist to constructs in 30m. Once again this seems like an okay item but I don't think I have once seen it brought. Increase AOE to 40M or buff missile resist by 5% because then you could use it to give a Bone Giant a bit more of a change in artillery duels with cannon factions.

Tomb Prince - Cloak of the Dunes: Cost 162, stalk + unspottable for 44 seconds. This item is identical in affect and 5 gold cheaper than the Noble's cloaking item, but has 23 second less duration. Either make it cheaper or buff the duration to match the noble variant.

Norsca
Skin Wolf Werekin - Potion of Speed: Foe-Seeker with an added boost to charge speed and acceleration for 79 cost. It only has a single use and the Werekin can get foe-seeker anyway so there is literally no reason to ever take this. Swap this item for something else, not sure what would be a good fit here. Maybe even just a potion of strength would be enough.

Wood Elves
Waystalker: Warrior's Bane: cost 81, -6% weapon damage in a 40m AOE. This item is terrible no reason to ever pick it. Not sure what would be the best way to buff or change it, what could be quite cool would be a single use item that would buff the offensive stats of Waystalker in some way and maybe give discourage. Could then allow for compromised archers that are with a Waystalker to be rear-charged by wild riders and hit with this item to scare them off.

Waystalker: Potion of Speed: Same as above for Skin Wolf Werekin however marginally more useful as Waystalker doesn't have foe-seeker. Still something I've never seen picked though, so either swap it out or maybe just buff it to be a bit more impactful than Foe-Seeker because it is single use.

Warriors of Chaos
Exalted Hero - Mark of Khorne: Cost 81, basically gives frenzy to the exalted hero. I think this should be made more expensive and also buffed to be permanent effect when taken. If taken on a Manticore you would be paying the deadweight cost for ITP that way so it would be a premium for melee stats, and Exalted heroes on foot or horse aren't exactly common sights so it would be good for this item to be better.

Dwarfs
Not going to comment on the Dwarfs as enough has been said about the poor itemisation and abilities for their heroes. CA probably has something in mind here at this point.

Comments

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,443Registered Users
    Great post these are the kind of no brainers that would be easy fixes to add value.

    If you agree with any from my old thread of the same concept feel free to cut and paste as most of those are still not addressed either!
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,167Registered Users
    Good suggestions.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,297Registered Users
    Waystalker should get smoke bomb and a castable cloak of loec ability.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Posts: 1,358Registered Users
    I would add the elixir of might as another lackluster item on the necrotect. It improves MA but only affects non-AP WS. This basically means the WS buff is nearly worthless, since the only non-AP "damage dealers"(And i use this term very generously) the TK have are chariots, tomb guard and nehekharan horsemen. Imo should buff both APand non-AP damage, maybe just 25% or 40% or something.

    I'd say the enchanted spyglass basically shares issue with every other ranged unit buffing AOE in the game. The AOE is too small to affect enough units without major league blobbing, its just exacerbated by how weak the perk on spyglass is. It should be noted the same ability is present on the glady and waystalker iirc(functionally speaking, its called something else but its also +10% non-AP), which is also fairly useless, though at least you can argue for the self buff.
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  • WojmirVonCarsteinWojmirVonCarstein Posts: 706Registered Users
    Greenskins
    Goblin Big Boss - Sword of Anti-Heroes: Cost 153g, Given that the hero himself costs 250g, paying an extra 60% to gain 20% potential damage output is very expensive. His role is not offensive anyways, so perhaps giving him something that can help nearby goblins would be nice
  • ystyst Posts: 6,075Registered Users
    edited October 20
    Waystalk war bane should just be a flat
    -5 att

    Tomb prince dune cloak is a serious oversight. Posted them in detail before, quite a lot of patches since, still left out.
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  • another505another505 Posts: 1,010Registered Users
    Paladin potion of foolhardy is very useless

    And the deadly onslaught or these AP and WS increase are generally too costly for cheap heroes. They work well for 1k heroes though
    Maybe for cheaper heroes these abilities should be common cost
  • FossowayFossoway Posts: 2,233Registered Users
    edited October 21
    UNPOPULAR OPINION ALERT!

    Tormentor Sword on the Dwarf Thane was a good thing. It made them useful and offered a counter to fast-moving enemies and cycle-charging. It was also balanced by the fact that you just had to pay attention and stay clear away of the Thane, as they were very slow and easy to avoid.

    If Tormentor Sword was too strong, they should have nerfed the radius or the duration, but not take it out altogether.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Posts: 4,443Registered Users
    Some more items that need fixes:


    Gatekeepers belt on runelord -- ~200pts for 33% damage resistence once your runelord on an anvil (best case scenario) gets to 800 health left. That's a 10-20% unit price increase to boost effective health by ~5%, and most of it is wasted because you will already be running away at that point.

    Stave of Avelorn - at one use for 100 pts it's either overpriced or too weak now.

    Mace of Helstrum on the Arch Lector. At ~190 points it's got a long recharge time and its bonuses (fire damage and +40% nonAP damage) are not any better than a sword of anti-heroes which is a rare pick, has a faster recharge, and clocks in at around 140 points. So a little overpriced on this one.

    Alith Anar's shadow crown (~220 gold) for some situation 18% speed and 5MD when enemies are near is a LOT to pay for very situational defensive play. Way overpriced.

    Alitih Anar's stone of midnight (22% missile resist) is slightly larger aura than runelord missile resist item, but costs almost twice as much. Somewhat overpriced.

    Malekith's 3 items, while still somewhat useful, are all a little too pricey since the nerfs they got, at ~180 each.

    Hammer of Angrund on Belegar -- Extremely costly non-permanent melee boost to a foot lord's damage output. Needs to be cheaper. Compare this to a "mark of khorne" item on the exalted chaos here (cost ~73) as a benchmark. Would be potentially useful if it gave armour sundering instead.

    Forgefire on runelord /reunsmith- +10% AP damage within 40m costs as much as 10% of a hammerer unit... so this is worth it if you stay within range of 2 or more heavy duty AP melee units the entire battle? Just feels like a real stretch at ~130 points.

    Rune of slowness on thane - ~150 cost for an AOE 18% slow. It's just not in the ever-pays-off realm of pricing for a unit that is itself so slow and inneffective.

    Red Ruin on Ungrim - I know, it stacks well, but... 150 points for a huge melee damage boost that lowers your defense and only recharges in melee... the risk/reward on this is just not there. A few hundred extra damage on something doesn't justify 10% of your lord's cost. Compare this to starcrusher on Kholek Suneater.

    Enkhil's Kanopi on Liche priests -- This item (66% magic resistence AOE) is actually quite good if you use it at the perfect time... but it costs so much at ~180, targets just the AOE around the caster and recharges slowly. Great concept but needs to be a bit better.

    Horn of the First Beast on the Beastlord -- a mini localized waaagh with a super long recharge in melee at a cost of ~225. Seems like a stretch.

    Totem of rust on the Beastlord - cheap at ~75 gold but -6 armour? That's really negligable for a small AOE...

    Dark Mail on Khazrak - I know they keep tweaking this, but is is really there yet? +24 armour and +22% magic resistence is definitely solid, but at a cost of 10-15 o the character (~200-225 gold) it still seems a bit over-priced.

    Teclis bound item with Fiery convocation is very pricey for a spell that is just not good right now, especially when not overcast. Should be cheaper given the limited upside.

    Pigeon plucker pendant on the coast gunnery wight is cheap at around 70 points but a small effect on flyers is just way too situational to ever be worth taking.

    Blade of the Serpent's Tongue on Tenenhuan. A bit pricey (~180) for a small AOE poison and minor charge bonus. Compare to azhag's 40pt contact poison.

    Dwarf Engineer Ballistics Calibration -- not necessarily bad but clearly worse than its counterpart in the Coast roster.

    Very close calls as these are *sometimes* useful, but almost always overpriced -- Skull wand of Katam on the Orc Shaman and Grombrindal's Axe are both really price for what they give (short melee boost + discouragement). I can't say I've never taken them but it's once in a blue moon.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,388Registered Users
    edited October 22

    Greenskins
    Goblin Big Boss - Sword of Anti-Heroes: Cost 153g, Given that the hero himself costs 250g, paying an extra 60% to gain 20% potential damage output is very expensive. His role is not offensive anyways, so perhaps giving him something that can help nearby goblins would be nice

    I thought about saying something about Gobbo Big Bosses but I think their kit is actually okay. They are supposed to be cheap damage dealers, can't make them too good at buffing other troops.
    Loupi_ said:

    Waystalker should get smoke bomb and a castable cloak of loec ability.

    Nah, Hawkeyes already have smoke bomb and that is enough. Smoke bomb on Waystalker would just turn Waystalker + Waywatcher into a quasi-replication of the RoR.
    Fossoway said:

    UNPOPULAR OPINION ALERT!

    Tormentor Sword on the Dwarf Thane was a good thing. It made them useful and offered a counter to fast-moving enemies and cycle-charging. It was also balanced by the fact that you just had to pay attention and stay clear away of the Thane, as they were very slow and easy to avoid.

    If Tormentor Sword was too strong, they should have nerfed the radius or the duration, but not take it out altogether.

    I think at least part of the reason it was removed is that Dwarfs don't use swords. When you read the description on the item it doesn't really seem like a Dawi weapon either.

    My preferred methods for giving the Dwarfs slows are still:

    -1. RoR Flame Cannon & RoR trollhammer torpedo, both of which shoot glue with longlasting and powerful slow effect and shortish reload times.
    -2. Skyhammer should drop a net instead of bombs.
    -3. Rune of Slowness buffs to be relevant.

    W&R is a necessary evil but a point and click massive slow seems extremely un-Dwarfish to me. They should be using their technology to capture their foes, I would also like it if Entrenchment on the master engineer increased mass and anchored a unit to the ground.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,297Registered Users
    OrkLads said:



    Nah, Hawkeyes already have smoke bomb and that is enough. Smoke bomb on Waystalker would just turn Waystalker + Waywatcher into a quasi-replication of the RoR.

    Ah sorry, I should have clarified, I think hawkeyes should lose smokebomb too, with maybe price drop (plus they should get their promised bonus v infantry).
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Posts: 331Registered Users
    The skink priest and skink chief items are also pretty useless, except for Slippery.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,388Registered Users
    Loupi_ said:

    OrkLads said:



    Nah, Hawkeyes already have smoke bomb and that is enough. Smoke bomb on Waystalker would just turn Waystalker + Waywatcher into a quasi-replication of the RoR.

    Ah sorry, I should have clarified, I think hawkeyes should lose smokebomb too, with maybe price drop (plus they should get their promised bonus v infantry).
    They should definitely get thier bonus vs infantry, but I like their current setup. They are a great unit and working well.

    I don't think a smokebomb for the Wood Elves tied to a hero unit is a good idea, it would be too powerful. Warrior's bane should probably just be as YST said, a flat -5 MA at the same price point. So he could skirmish at the start and mid game, then join the melee fight and have an aoe for bigger impact.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,297Registered Users
    OrkLads said:

    Loupi_ said:

    OrkLads said:



    Nah, Hawkeyes already have smoke bomb and that is enough. Smoke bomb on Waystalker would just turn Waystalker + Waywatcher into a quasi-replication of the RoR.

    Ah sorry, I should have clarified, I think hawkeyes should lose smokebomb too, with maybe price drop (plus they should get their promised bonus v infantry).
    They should definitely get thier bonus vs infantry, but I like their current setup. They are a great unit and working well.

    I don't think a smokebomb for the Wood Elves tied to a hero unit is a good idea, it would be too powerful. Warrior's bane should probably just be as YST said, a flat -5 MA at the same price point. So he could skirmish at the start and mid game, then join the melee fight and have an aoe for bigger impact.
    Why would it be too strong? It's still on a slow foot character so you would need good positioning for it to work, and besides a minus MA aura wouldn't be very useful on such a ranged focussed hero
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,388Registered Users
    Loupi_ said:

    OrkLads said:

    Loupi_ said:

    OrkLads said:



    Nah, Hawkeyes already have smoke bomb and that is enough. Smoke bomb on Waystalker would just turn Waystalker + Waywatcher into a quasi-replication of the RoR.

    Ah sorry, I should have clarified, I think hawkeyes should lose smokebomb too, with maybe price drop (plus they should get their promised bonus v infantry).
    They should definitely get thier bonus vs infantry, but I like their current setup. They are a great unit and working well.

    I don't think a smokebomb for the Wood Elves tied to a hero unit is a good idea, it would be too powerful. Warrior's bane should probably just be as YST said, a flat -5 MA at the same price point. So he could skirmish at the start and mid game, then join the melee fight and have an aoe for bigger impact.
    Why would it be too strong? It's still on a slow foot character so you would need good positioning for it to work, and besides a minus MA aura wouldn't be very useful on such a ranged focussed hero
    Having a smoke bomb in a single entity is very strong, especially one with Waystalker speed and 180 range. Would also allow them to operate with impunity knowing that if they got into trouble they could smoke bomb and wait for the Dragon, wild riders, wardancers etc to come in. 30m aoe 72% slow on a faction with Wood Elf mobility would be mental. Would barely need good positioning either just forward deploy 2 Waystalker , snipe whatever you like ,if they send units after them drop a Smokebomb and nuke with Waywatcher.

    People on this forum were complaining about a 72% slow given to Dwarfs with am average speed of 26, can you imagine the posts if it was given to a faction with average speed of 50 and the beat archers in the game who have stalk....
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Posts: 1,297Registered Users
    edited October 23
    OrkLads said:

    Loupi_ said:

    OrkLads said:

    Loupi_ said:

    OrkLads said:



    Nah, Hawkeyes already have smoke bomb and that is enough. Smoke bomb on Waystalker would just turn Waystalker + Waywatcher into a quasi-replication of the RoR.

    Ah sorry, I should have clarified, I think hawkeyes should lose smokebomb too, with maybe price drop (plus they should get their promised bonus v infantry).
    They should definitely get thier bonus vs infantry, but I like their current setup. They are a great unit and working well.

    I don't think a smokebomb for the Wood Elves tied to a hero unit is a good idea, it would be too powerful. Warrior's bane should probably just be as YST said, a flat -5 MA at the same price point. So he could skirmish at the start and mid game, then join the melee fight and have an aoe for bigger impact.
    Why would it be too strong? It's still on a slow foot character so you would need good positioning for it to work, and besides a minus MA aura wouldn't be very useful on such a ranged focussed hero
    Having a smoke bomb in a single entity is very strong, especially one with Waystalker speed and 180 range. Would also allow them to operate with impunity knowing that if they got into trouble they could smoke bomb and wait for the Dragon, wild riders, wardancers etc to come in. 30m aoe 72% slow on a faction with Wood Elf mobility would be mental. Would barely need good positioning either just forward deploy 2 Waystalker , snipe whatever you like ,if they send units after them drop a Smokebomb and nuke with Waywatcher.

    People on this forum were complaining about a 72% slow given to Dwarfs with am average speed of 26, can you imagine the posts if it was given to a faction with average speed of 50 and the beat archers in the game who have stalk....
    Weird to compare smoke bomb to rune of net when rune has 200 m range. Why not compare to grombrindal's smoke bomb, or nasty skulkers.

    I guess by that logic you also think grombrindal would be OP if he got vanguard.

  • OrkLadsOrkLads Posts: 1,388Registered Users
    Loupi_ said:

    OrkLads said:

    Loupi_ said:

    OrkLads said:

    Loupi_ said:

    OrkLads said:



    Nah, Hawkeyes already have smoke bomb and that is enough. Smoke bomb on Waystalker would just turn Waystalker + Waywatcher into a quasi-replication of the RoR.

    Ah sorry, I should have clarified, I think hawkeyes should lose smokebomb too, with maybe price drop (plus they should get their promised bonus v infantry).
    They should definitely get thier bonus vs infantry, but I like their current setup. They are a great unit and working well.

    I don't think a smokebomb for the Wood Elves tied to a hero unit is a good idea, it would be too powerful. Warrior's bane should probably just be as YST said, a flat -5 MA at the same price point. So he could skirmish at the start and mid game, then join the melee fight and have an aoe for bigger impact.
    Why would it be too strong? It's still on a slow foot character so you would need good positioning for it to work, and besides a minus MA aura wouldn't be very useful on such a ranged focussed hero
    Having a smoke bomb in a single entity is very strong, especially one with Waystalker speed and 180 range. Would also allow them to operate with impunity knowing that if they got into trouble they could smoke bomb and wait for the Dragon, wild riders, wardancers etc to come in. 30m aoe 72% slow on a faction with Wood Elf mobility would be mental. Would barely need good positioning either just forward deploy 2 Waystalker , snipe whatever you like ,if they send units after them drop a Smokebomb and nuke with Waywatcher.

    People on this forum were complaining about a 72% slow given to Dwarfs with am average speed of 26, can you imagine the posts if it was given to a faction with average speed of 50 and the beat archers in the game who have stalk....
    Weird to compare smoke bomb to rune of net when rune has 200 m range. Why not compare to grombrindal's smoke bomb, or nasty skulkers.

    I guess by that logic you also think grombrindal would be OP if he got vanguard.

    Skulkers and Hawkeyes of Drakira are multi model, so not a good comparison. Being able to whittle down models on a unit always makes them weaker in this game.

    What logic is that? If Grombrindal had 42 speed, stalk/snipe, a 180 range attack, and was in one of the 2 fastest rosters in the game, then definitely I would. I don't think we should be giving smokebombs to Gorebulls either.
  • DandalusXVIIDandalusXVII Posts: 4,167Registered Users
    edited October 27
    Fossoway said:

    UNPOPULAR OPINION ALERT!

    Tormentor Sword on the Dwarf Thane was a good thing. It made them useful and offered a counter to fast-moving enemies and cycle-charging. It was also balanced by the fact that you just had to pay attention and stay clear away of the Thane, as they were very slow and easy to avoid.

    If Tormentor Sword was too strong, they should have nerfed the radius or the duration, but not take it out altogether.

    Agreed. My win ratio vs Dawi is like 80%+ with WoC anyway.
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