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The empire vs Bretonnia

alecwinteralecwinter Posts: 18Registered Users
So if there was an all out war between the empire and bretonnia like if karl Franz rallied the elector counts and louen leoncour declared an errantry war who would win
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  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Posts: 1,603Registered Users
    The Empire.

    It's explicitly stated to be larger and more populous in the lore, however it is less politically stable due to its confederated nature, and moreover it rarely gets the opportunity to look west due to the threats posed by the northern Chaos marauders, World's Edge orcs & goblins, beastmen, etc.

    This is not to say that Bretonnia would be easily defeated. Bretonnian knights are fearsome, to some extent magical (for Questing and Grail knights) champions, and despite looking antiquatic, their armor is as efficient as Imperial armor (if I remember correctly). Its cities are large fortresses as well. Most importantly, however, the cult of the Lady would create a zealous resistance that would make occupation and conquest painful and a horrible slog, with many holy places having powerful magics available to the defenders and uprisings.

    In the end, it would in all likelihood be a costly, bloody, pyrrhic victory for the Empire, which would see them triumphant and decimated in almost equal measure, making them easy prey for external foes, or even vulnerable to an insurgency down the line.
  • SephlockSephlock Posts: 1,689Registered Users
    The Empire for a few reasons:

    The college of magic.

    Better quality basic troops.

    Industry.

    The entire Dwarf civilization sworn to aid them should they face a major threat


    There are only so many Grail Knights.

    In the end, the real winners would be the Skaven.

    Yes yes.
    #JusticeForUshoran #RuneGolems #RuneGuardians #ShardDragons #Thunderbarges #Stormfiends #BigMonsters #MoreDakka
  • kitekazekitekaze Posts: 254Registered Users
    IIRC, I read somewhere that if all Empire are united, then they would be able to steamroll over everything.

    Translating to gameplay, they stay most competitive faction due to versality and ability to change its focus to counter any faction.

    For example, heavy bretonnia calvary can be stopped with cannon, halberdier, and huntsmen, while empire knights shred remains of Bretonnian Peasant.
  • Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Posts: 1,313Registered Users
    @Sir_Godspeed

    Bretonnian armor isn't as good as Imperial armor. The Bretonnians use mostly High Medieval mail, while the Empire has Renaissance plate.

    Other than that, you're pretty much spot on.

    The only thing I'd add is that the Empire has faced and fought off far more numerous and dangerous threats than Bretonnia has. Even Mousillon, that great boogeyman of Bretonnia, just isn't on the same level as Sylvania, and Sylvania isn't even the most dire threat to the Empire. That's probably the best measure of Imperial power relative to Bretonnia.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Posts: 16,477Registered Users
    Say hello to my little friend. Pew pew pew go the riflemen!
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • Wargol5Wargol5 Posts: 1,263Registered Users
    kitekaze said:

    IIRC, I read somewhere that if all Empire are united, then they would be able to steamroll over everything.

    Yeah, i'm absolutely certain to have read that statement in a official source but i can't retrieve it, it's frustrating.

  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Posts: 1,603Registered Users

    @Sir_Godspeed

    Bretonnian armor isn't as good as Imperial armor. The Bretonnians use mostly High Medieval mail, while the Empire has Renaissance plate.

    Other than that, you're pretty much spot on.

    The only thing I'd add is that the Empire has faced and fought off far more numerous and dangerous threats than Bretonnia has. Even Mousillon, that great boogeyman of Bretonnia, just isn't on the same level as Sylvania, and Sylvania isn't even the most dire threat to the Empire. That's probably the best measure of Imperial power relative to Bretonnia.

    You missed my point:

    There is no "medieval" or "renaissance" in Warhammer.

    Imperial and Bretonnian warriors use high-quality magically forged armors that look different, but are effectively equally powerful.

    Imperial plate is made by gromril (a made up fantasy metal clearly inspired by Tolkien's mithril) while Bretonnian armor is likely made through some other, but equally potent method.

    My point is merely to point out that while the Bretonnians lack the gunpowder and industry of the Empire, they are not in fact as backwards as some think, as Bretonnian metallurgy and masonry are pretty on par with the Empire, for both technical and magical reasons.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 13,134Registered Users, Moderators
    Could they actually beat the Green Knight is the main problem. Everything else being as it is, the Empire would win. Bretonnia would have a notable advantage on their home turf, which is suited for their style of warfare, but I still think the Empire takes it.

    The Green Knight, on the other hand, has killed entire armies on his own. He also went toe to toe with the most fighty of Vampires and won (if he is actually Gilles). He dies? He comes back. He's also a far better fighter than most Empire leaders and he would no doubt seek to cut them down. The Empire is good, and disciplined, but a lot of that does come down to leadership too. If they see Karl go down, they're liable to break. Hellboring? He'd be cut to ribbons by the Green Knight since he nearly lost to a standard Grail Knight. In fact he did lose to that Grail Knight in the duel, but then surprise killed him due to Hellboring's breaking of the ceasefire and treachery. Not that I'm knocking it, Hellboring did the right thing, but he isn't that great a fighter in comparison. Schwartzhelm is basically on Hellboring's level. Valten might do okay, but Valten likes to lose fights against important people at just the wrong moments.

    They'd no doubt be able to kill the Green Knight on occasion, I'm rather sure of that, but the real question is how long would he remain gone for? And will he keep coming back so long as the cult of the Lady endures? If the answer to that last one is "yes" then the Empire will have a hard time holding on to Bretonnia.

    Realistically, though, both sides lose. No matter who wins, they get immediately ripped apart by everyone else.
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  • Wtfah114Wtfah114 Posts: 101Registered Users

    @Sir_Godspeed

    Bretonnian armor isn't as good as Imperial armor. The Bretonnians use mostly High Medieval mail, while the Empire has Renaissance plate.

    Other than that, you're pretty much spot on.

    The only thing I'd add is that the Empire has faced and fought off far more numerous and dangerous threats than Bretonnia has. Even Mousillon, that great boogeyman of Bretonnia, just isn't on the same level as Sylvania, and Sylvania isn't even the most dire threat to the Empire. That's probably the best measure of Imperial power relative to Bretonnia.

    You missed my point:

    There is no "medieval" or "renaissance" in Warhammer.

    Imperial and Bretonnian warriors use high-quality magically forged armors that look different, but are effectively equally powerful.

    Imperial plate is made by gromril (a made up fantasy metal clearly inspired by Tolkien's mithril) while Bretonnian armor is likely made through some other, but equally potent method.

    My point is merely to point out that while the Bretonnians lack the gunpowder and industry of the Empire, they are not in fact as backwards as some think, as Bretonnian metallurgy and masonry are pretty on par with the Empire, for both technical and magical reasons.
    except they are not on par? Plate at better than mail, plain and simple, and it's reflected both the total war game and table top rules. Imperial full plate is specifically noted to be on par with dwarf and chaos armor, and are superior than anything Bret's have.
  • UagrimUagrim Posts: 672Registered Users
    Wtfah114 said:

    @Sir_Godspeed

    Bretonnian armor isn't as good as Imperial armor. The Bretonnians use mostly High Medieval mail, while the Empire has Renaissance plate.

    Other than that, you're pretty much spot on.

    The only thing I'd add is that the Empire has faced and fought off far more numerous and dangerous threats than Bretonnia has. Even Mousillon, that great boogeyman of Bretonnia, just isn't on the same level as Sylvania, and Sylvania isn't even the most dire threat to the Empire. That's probably the best measure of Imperial power relative to Bretonnia.

    You missed my point:

    There is no "medieval" or "renaissance" in Warhammer.

    Imperial and Bretonnian warriors use high-quality magically forged armors that look different, but are effectively equally powerful.

    Imperial plate is made by gromril (a made up fantasy metal clearly inspired by Tolkien's mithril) while Bretonnian armor is likely made through some other, but equally potent method.

    My point is merely to point out that while the Bretonnians lack the gunpowder and industry of the Empire, they are not in fact as backwards as some think, as Bretonnian metallurgy and masonry are pretty on par with the Empire, for both technical and magical reasons.
    except they are not on par? Plate at better than mail, plain and simple, and it's reflected both the total war game and table top rules. Imperial full plate is specifically noted to be on par with dwarf and chaos armor, and are superior than anything Bret's have.
    Imperial plate equal to chaos warplate?

    The same stuff that as per lore only pure gromril suits are a match for, the stuff the dwarfs are rather understandably stinchy about giving to other races. Imperial plate is not in that category of armour.

    As for being better then bretonnian, it is of better make yes. But bretonnians are able to simply wear more because their horses are that much more powerful. The armybook describes it that an empire warhorse struggles to even carry let alone charge in bretonnian armour, that might be a slight exaggeration but it still means bretonnia can wear more armour then the empire to balance it out.
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member Posts: 1,085Registered Users
    Wtfah114 said:

    @Sir_Godspeed

    Bretonnian armor isn't as good as Imperial armor. The Bretonnians use mostly High Medieval mail, while the Empire has Renaissance plate.

    Other than that, you're pretty much spot on.

    The only thing I'd add is that the Empire has faced and fought off far more numerous and dangerous threats than Bretonnia has. Even Mousillon, that great boogeyman of Bretonnia, just isn't on the same level as Sylvania, and Sylvania isn't even the most dire threat to the Empire. That's probably the best measure of Imperial power relative to Bretonnia.

    You missed my point:

    There is no "medieval" or "renaissance" in Warhammer.

    Imperial and Bretonnian warriors use high-quality magically forged armors that look different, but are effectively equally powerful.

    Imperial plate is made by gromril (a made up fantasy metal clearly inspired by Tolkien's mithril) while Bretonnian armor is likely made through some other, but equally potent method.

    My point is merely to point out that while the Bretonnians lack the gunpowder and industry of the Empire, they are not in fact as backwards as some think, as Bretonnian metallurgy and masonry are pretty on par with the Empire, for both technical and magical reasons.
    except they are not on par? Plate at better than mail, plain and simple, and it's reflected both the total war game and table top rules. Imperial full plate is specifically noted to be on par with dwarf and chaos armor, and are superior than anything Bret's have.
    Bretonnians wear late 14th century plate armor which only has mail at the joints. It's not as good as the mid 15th century armor of the Empire but it's not far off.


    What advantage the Empire has in armor is more than made up for by the blessing of The Lady which grants a 5+/6+ ward save that protects against things that even the best armor is worthless against. Cannon balls can bounce right off of a Bret knight where they are basically guaranteed to kill any Empire knight they touch.
  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 1,535Registered Users
    edited October 22
    The Empire without a doubt.

    Just look at human history. Knights lost their relevance with the rise of Gunpowder weapons.

    The empire represents German renaissance warfare while Bretonia is still deep into the Middle Ages.
    It would basically be war between 16th century Holy Roman Empire vs 11th century France.
    Bretonia has huge castles and fortresses but history showed us that castles and big walls also lost they relevance with the rise of gunpowder cannons. During that time many nobles in the Holy Roman Empire left their walled castles because they were just easy targets and couldn’t stand against cannons.


    But staying in the warhammer world, the Empire is also higher populated. With its gigantic cities and technological advance it would burn Bretonia to the ground.
  • UagrimUagrim Posts: 672Registered Users
    kitekaze said:

    IIRC, I read somewhere that if all Empire are united, then they would be able to steamroll over everything.

    That would be the skaven, not the empire.

    The empire version of that would be being able to produce more steamtanks and reliable gunpowder tech.

    And even then the argument could be made that some factions with their victory condition can beat them.
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,963Registered Users
    Canuovea said:

    Could they actually beat the Green Knight is the main problem. Everything else being as it is, the Empire would win. Bretonnia would have a notable advantage on their home turf, which is suited for their style of warfare, but I still think the Empire takes it.

    The Green Knight, on the other hand, has killed entire armies on his own. He also went toe to toe with the most fighty of Vampires and won (if he is actually Gilles). He dies? He comes back. He's also a far better fighter than most Empire leaders and he would no doubt seek to cut them down. The Empire is good, and disciplined, but a lot of that does come down to leadership too. If they see Karl go down, they're liable to break. Hellboring? He'd be cut to ribbons by the Green Knight since he nearly lost to a standard Grail Knight. In fact he did lose to that Grail Knight in the duel, but then surprise killed him due to Hellboring's breaking of the ceasefire and treachery. Not that I'm knocking it, Hellboring did the right thing, but he isn't that great a fighter in comparison. Schwartzhelm is basically on Hellboring's level. Valten might do okay, but Valten likes to lose fights against important people at just the wrong moments.

    They'd no doubt be able to kill the Green Knight on occasion, I'm rather sure of that, but the real question is how long would he remain gone for? And will he keep coming back so long as the cult of the Lady endures? If the answer to that last one is "yes" then the Empire will have a hard time holding on to Bretonnia.

    Realistically, though, both sides lose. No matter who wins, they get immediately ripped apart by everyone else.

    And what did Green Knight in End Time, ? He didint solo Chaos army or Archaon. Valten is best fighter of the Empire, and Schwartzhelm is second to him, better then Helborg.

    And if you take into this help from eternal being, then to aid Empire, Sigmar can be involved. If Sigmar will take dead body of Franz, he will wipe ass of any living Bretonnian Lord, or hero.
  • UagrimUagrim Posts: 672Registered Users
    Ares354 said:

    Canuovea said:

    Could they actually beat the Green Knight is the main problem. Everything else being as it is, the Empire would win. Bretonnia would have a notable advantage on their home turf, which is suited for their style of warfare, but I still think the Empire takes it.

    The Green Knight, on the other hand, has killed entire armies on his own. He also went toe to toe with the most fighty of Vampires and won (if he is actually Gilles). He dies? He comes back. He's also a far better fighter than most Empire leaders and he would no doubt seek to cut them down. The Empire is good, and disciplined, but a lot of that does come down to leadership too. If they see Karl go down, they're liable to break. Hellboring? He'd be cut to ribbons by the Green Knight since he nearly lost to a standard Grail Knight. In fact he did lose to that Grail Knight in the duel, but then surprise killed him due to Hellboring's breaking of the ceasefire and treachery. Not that I'm knocking it, Hellboring did the right thing, but he isn't that great a fighter in comparison. Schwartzhelm is basically on Hellboring's level. Valten might do okay, but Valten likes to lose fights against important people at just the wrong moments.

    They'd no doubt be able to kill the Green Knight on occasion, I'm rather sure of that, but the real question is how long would he remain gone for? And will he keep coming back so long as the cult of the Lady endures? If the answer to that last one is "yes" then the Empire will have a hard time holding on to Bretonnia.

    Realistically, though, both sides lose. No matter who wins, they get immediately ripped apart by everyone else.

    And what did Green Knight in End Time, ? He didint solo Chaos army or Archaon. Valten is best fighter of the Empire, and Schwartzhelm is second to him, better then Helborg.

    And if you take into this help from eternal being, then to aid Empire, Sigmar can be involved. If Sigmar will take dead body of Franz, he will wipe ass of any living Bretonnian Lord, or hero.
    Gilles got sidelined and utterly beat the **** out of people with abhorash until the end of the world. Unlike sigmar the green knight isn't unseen on the battlefield.

    Valten being the empires best fighter means nothing when we have a random viscount beating one of the other contender to that title.

    On the walls of Averheim it wasn't the imperials steel or gunpowder who matched the skullreapers of khorne it was the bretonnians and the slayers of karak kadrin alone who held against those at all.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 7,047Registered Users
    Why are people comparing earth armors in warhammer?

    This is warhammer. Bretonnian's armor is fiiiiiiiiiiiiiine. Grail Knights were the space marines of WHFB before anyone even heard of a Sigmarine. Y'all just don't remember because it was way back when and then Bretonnia didn't get a codex for several editions while the power creep went nuts.

    Regarding the architecture being on par... good lord... have you SEEN the bretonnian fortresses? That's straight up superior. Almost elven in quality and design. It's just the peasant's stuff that's on par :-P
  • Wtfah114Wtfah114 Posts: 101Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    Why are people comparing earth armors in warhammer?

    This is warhammer. Bretonnian's armor is fiiiiiiiiiiiiiine. Grail Knights were the space marines of WHFB before anyone even heard of a Sigmarine. Y'all just don't remember because it was way back when and then Bretonnia didn't get a codex for several editions while the power creep went nuts.

    Regarding the architecture being on par... good lord... have you SEEN the bretonnian fortresses? That's straight up superior. Almost elven in quality and design. It's just the peasant's stuff that's on par :-P

    doesn't matter brets own army book admits empire is the strongest of the two, while the empire army book states should they be able to concentrate all their forces, they will flatten anything in the old world.
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,963Registered Users
    Uagrim said:

    Ares354 said:

    Canuovea said:

    Could they actually beat the Green Knight is the main problem. Everything else being as it is, the Empire would win. Bretonnia would have a notable advantage on their home turf, which is suited for their style of warfare, but I still think the Empire takes it.

    The Green Knight, on the other hand, has killed entire armies on his own. He also went toe to toe with the most fighty of Vampires and won (if he is actually Gilles). He dies? He comes back. He's also a far better fighter than most Empire leaders and he would no doubt seek to cut them down. The Empire is good, and disciplined, but a lot of that does come down to leadership too. If they see Karl go down, they're liable to break. Hellboring? He'd be cut to ribbons by the Green Knight since he nearly lost to a standard Grail Knight. In fact he did lose to that Grail Knight in the duel, but then surprise killed him due to Hellboring's breaking of the ceasefire and treachery. Not that I'm knocking it, Hellboring did the right thing, but he isn't that great a fighter in comparison. Schwartzhelm is basically on Hellboring's level. Valten might do okay, but Valten likes to lose fights against important people at just the wrong moments.

    They'd no doubt be able to kill the Green Knight on occasion, I'm rather sure of that, but the real question is how long would he remain gone for? And will he keep coming back so long as the cult of the Lady endures? If the answer to that last one is "yes" then the Empire will have a hard time holding on to Bretonnia.

    Realistically, though, both sides lose. No matter who wins, they get immediately ripped apart by everyone else.

    And what did Green Knight in End Time, ? He didint solo Chaos army or Archaon. Valten is best fighter of the Empire, and Schwartzhelm is second to him, better then Helborg.

    And if you take into this help from eternal being, then to aid Empire, Sigmar can be involved. If Sigmar will take dead body of Franz, he will wipe ass of any living Bretonnian Lord, or hero.
    Gilles got sidelined and utterly beat the **** out of people with abhorash until the end of the world. Unlike sigmar the green knight isn't unseen on the battlefield.

    Valten being the empires best fighter means nothing when we have a random viscount beating one of the other contender to that title.

    On the walls of Averheim it wasn't the imperials steel or gunpowder who matched the skullreapers of khorne it was the bretonnians and the slayers of karak kadrin alone who held against those at all.
    In the Middenheim it was Imperial army, gs, and alive empire heroes who faught everchaosen, and its was Valten who took upper hand over him, so some vermilord help him. Grimgor do more dmg to everchosen then GK ever did to Chaos in End Times.

    And sorry but Sigmar from human became God, Gilles is just witch evlen God pawn, he is her slave, like all grail knights.
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,963Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    Why are people comparing earth armors in warhammer?

    This is warhammer. Bretonnian's armor is fiiiiiiiiiiiiiine. Grail Knights were the space marines of WHFB before anyone even heard of a Sigmarine. Y'all just don't remember because it was way back when and then Bretonnia didn't get a codex for several editions while the power creep went nuts.

    Regarding the architecture being on par... good lord... have you SEEN the bretonnian fortresses? That's straight up superior. Almost elven in quality and design. It's just the peasant's stuff that's on par :-P

    Dont compere noble SP to some Slave who is powerup by Witch who name herself Lady of Lake. Grail Knight are slaves, power up, still serves her.

    Person who lost his will, aint Knight anymore.
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member Posts: 1,085Registered Users
    ArneSo said:

    The Empire without a doubt.

    Just look at human history. Knights lost their relevance with the rise of Gunpowder weapons.

    The empire represents German renaissance warfare while Bretonia is still deep into the Middle Ages.

    This is a popular myth. Knights were prominent for hundreds of year after the rise of gunpowder. The famous charge of the winged hussars at Vienna was against gunpowder armed troops with cannon. Armor just kept getting thicker to make it bullet proof. In Japan they were still using plate armor in the 19th century despite having access to European firearms because they had thick enough armor to stop a bullet.

    The decline of knights had more to do with social status and economics than weapons. War was being carried out on an industrial scale with hundreds of thousands of men marching to war in Europe. The small noble class meanwhile had transitioned from holding their titles as warrior elite, to more of a managerial class as their land and wealth made them the only ones able to afford an education needed to run the increasingly complex economies of an industrializing continent.
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,963Registered Users

    ArneSo said:

    The Empire without a doubt.

    Just look at human history. Knights lost their relevance with the rise of Gunpowder weapons.

    The empire represents German renaissance warfare while Bretonia is still deep into the Middle Ages.

    This is a popular myth. Knights were prominent for hundreds of year after the rise of gunpowder. The famous charge of the winged hussars at Vienna was against gunpowder armed troops with cannon. Armor just kept getting thicker to make it bullet proof. In Japan they were still using plate armor in the 19th century despite having access to European firearms because they had thick enough armor to stop a bullet.

    The decline of knights had more to do with social status and economics than weapons. War was being carried out on an industrial scale with hundreds of thousands of men marching to war in Europe. The small noble class meanwhile had transitioned from holding their titles as warrior elite, to more of a managerial class as their land and wealth made them the only ones able to afford an education needed to run the increasingly complex economies of an industrializing continent.
    Nope, dont compere Winged Hissars to Medieval Knight. Armor of WH was way different, there was little to no armor on legs, and power of that formation was devastating charge with good mobility, not armor itsself. Armor of WH was to protect from blunt weapons. Main strategy vs gunpower units, was to waste their shoot, when they were far away, so bullets would do almost nothing, or miss. Then close the gap, that why horses use to be very fast, and had no armor. WH are shock cav, not meant to fight in prolong combat.
  • UagrimUagrim Posts: 672Registered Users
    Ares354 said:

    Uagrim said:

    Ares354 said:

    Canuovea said:

    Could they actually beat the Green Knight is the main problem. Everything else being as it is, the Empire would win. Bretonnia would have a notable advantage on their home turf, which is suited for their style of warfare, but I still think the Empire takes it.

    The Green Knight, on the other hand, has killed entire armies on his own. He also went toe to toe with the most fighty of Vampires and won (if he is actually Gilles). He dies? He comes back. He's also a far better fighter than most Empire leaders and he would no doubt seek to cut them down. The Empire is good, and disciplined, but a lot of that does come down to leadership too. If they see Karl go down, they're liable to break. Hellboring? He'd be cut to ribbons by the Green Knight since he nearly lost to a standard Grail Knight. In fact he did lose to that Grail Knight in the duel, but then surprise killed him due to Hellboring's breaking of the ceasefire and treachery. Not that I'm knocking it, Hellboring did the right thing, but he isn't that great a fighter in comparison. Schwartzhelm is basically on Hellboring's level. Valten might do okay, but Valten likes to lose fights against important people at just the wrong moments.

    They'd no doubt be able to kill the Green Knight on occasion, I'm rather sure of that, but the real question is how long would he remain gone for? And will he keep coming back so long as the cult of the Lady endures? If the answer to that last one is "yes" then the Empire will have a hard time holding on to Bretonnia.

    Realistically, though, both sides lose. No matter who wins, they get immediately ripped apart by everyone else.

    And what did Green Knight in End Time, ? He didint solo Chaos army or Archaon. Valten is best fighter of the Empire, and Schwartzhelm is second to him, better then Helborg.

    And if you take into this help from eternal being, then to aid Empire, Sigmar can be involved. If Sigmar will take dead body of Franz, he will wipe ass of any living Bretonnian Lord, or hero.
    Gilles got sidelined and utterly beat the **** out of people with abhorash until the end of the world. Unlike sigmar the green knight isn't unseen on the battlefield.

    Valten being the empires best fighter means nothing when we have a random viscount beating one of the other contender to that title.

    On the walls of Averheim it wasn't the imperials steel or gunpowder who matched the skullreapers of khorne it was the bretonnians and the slayers of karak kadrin alone who held against those at all.
    In the Middenheim it was Imperial army, gs, and alive empire heroes who faught everchaosen, and its was Valten who took upper hand over him, so some vermilord help him. Grimgor do more dmg to everchosen then GK ever did to Chaos in End Times.

    And sorry but Sigmar from human became God, Gilles is just witch evlen God pawn, he is her slave, like all grail knights.
    "So some verminlords helped him" just some greater demon lend a hand in him no biggy. Don't be so ridiculously dismissive. Not to mention all the incarnates were at middenheim.

    Valten died against archaon.

    Do you see any other humans of the empire becoming gods?

    No, then it doesn't matter since sigmar is trapped in the wind of azyr.
  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 1,535Registered Users
    @Caffynated

    True the decline of Knights was a result of many changes in technology and society.

    I just watched a nice documentary about the exact same topic recently.
    But if we just look at the battlefield, castles lost their importants because cannons simply fired them to the ground. So a castle didn’t secure any protection anymore. At the same time heavy infantry got more and more popular, the German Landsknecht with his halberd was a good counterforce against mounted knights. Supported by rifflemen and a backline of Artillery, a cavalry charge was useless.
    The social decline of the Knightly society followed as a result of beeing useless on the battlefield and urban societies getting more and more confident and powerful. Quite a complex topic.

    Cavalry was still useful against certain enemies like the Ottomans but in middle and western Europe, it really lost its relevance.
  • CaffynatedCaffynated Member Posts: 1,085Registered Users
    Ares354 said:

    ArneSo said:

    The Empire without a doubt.

    Just look at human history. Knights lost their relevance with the rise of Gunpowder weapons.

    The empire represents German renaissance warfare while Bretonia is still deep into the Middle Ages.

    This is a popular myth. Knights were prominent for hundreds of year after the rise of gunpowder. The famous charge of the winged hussars at Vienna was against gunpowder armed troops with cannon. Armor just kept getting thicker to make it bullet proof. In Japan they were still using plate armor in the 19th century despite having access to European firearms because they had thick enough armor to stop a bullet.

    The decline of knights had more to do with social status and economics than weapons. War was being carried out on an industrial scale with hundreds of thousands of men marching to war in Europe. The small noble class meanwhile had transitioned from holding their titles as warrior elite, to more of a managerial class as their land and wealth made them the only ones able to afford an education needed to run the increasingly complex economies of an industrializing continent.
    Nope, dont compere Winged Hissars to Medieval Knight. Armor of WH was way different, there was little to no armor on legs, and power of that formation was devastating charge with good mobility, not armor itsself. Armor of WH was to protect from blunt weapons. Main strategy vs gunpower units, was to waste their shoot, when they were far away, so bullets would do almost nothing, or miss. Then close the gap, that why horses use to be very fast, and had no armor. WH are shock cav, not meant to fight in prolong combat.
    Yes, we don't want to compare armored shock cavalry with lances to... armored shock cavalry with lances. They're completely different and not at all similar.

    One rides a horse, wears plate armor, wields a lance and charges in a tight formation shaped kind of like a triangle.

    The other rides a horse, wears plate armor, wields a lance and charges in a tight formation shaped kind of like a triangle.

    Two 100% different things.
  • Nico_NINico_NI Posts: 56Registered Users
    Louen would challenge Karl to a duel, it's the knightly thing to do. And beat him up over and over again.

    So... Bretonnia wins!
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 6,520Registered Users
    In game a united Empire would steamroll a united Bretonnia even with their Crusader holdings.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
    Favourite campaigns: Clan Angrund, Followers of Nagash and the new Huntsmarshall’s Expedition
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,963Registered Users
    Uagrim said:

    Ares354 said:

    Uagrim said:

    Ares354 said:

    Canuovea said:

    Could they actually beat the Green Knight is the main problem. Everything else being as it is, the Empire would win. Bretonnia would have a notable advantage on their home turf, which is suited for their style of warfare, but I still think the Empire takes it.

    The Green Knight, on the other hand, has killed entire armies on his own. He also went toe to toe with the most fighty of Vampires and won (if he is actually Gilles). He dies? He comes back. He's also a far better fighter than most Empire leaders and he would no doubt seek to cut them down. The Empire is good, and disciplined, but a lot of that does come down to leadership too. If they see Karl go down, they're liable to break. Hellboring? He'd be cut to ribbons by the Green Knight since he nearly lost to a standard Grail Knight. In fact he did lose to that Grail Knight in the duel, but then surprise killed him due to Hellboring's breaking of the ceasefire and treachery. Not that I'm knocking it, Hellboring did the right thing, but he isn't that great a fighter in comparison. Schwartzhelm is basically on Hellboring's level. Valten might do okay, but Valten likes to lose fights against important people at just the wrong moments.

    They'd no doubt be able to kill the Green Knight on occasion, I'm rather sure of that, but the real question is how long would he remain gone for? And will he keep coming back so long as the cult of the Lady endures? If the answer to that last one is "yes" then the Empire will have a hard time holding on to Bretonnia.

    Realistically, though, both sides lose. No matter who wins, they get immediately ripped apart by everyone else.

    And what did Green Knight in End Time, ? He didint solo Chaos army or Archaon. Valten is best fighter of the Empire, and Schwartzhelm is second to him, better then Helborg.

    And if you take into this help from eternal being, then to aid Empire, Sigmar can be involved. If Sigmar will take dead body of Franz, he will wipe ass of any living Bretonnian Lord, or hero.
    Gilles got sidelined and utterly beat the **** out of people with abhorash until the end of the world. Unlike sigmar the green knight isn't unseen on the battlefield.

    Valten being the empires best fighter means nothing when we have a random viscount beating one of the other contender to that title.

    On the walls of Averheim it wasn't the imperials steel or gunpowder who matched the skullreapers of khorne it was the bretonnians and the slayers of karak kadrin alone who held against those at all.
    In the Middenheim it was Imperial army, gs, and alive empire heroes who faught everchaosen, and its was Valten who took upper hand over him, so some vermilord help him. Grimgor do more dmg to everchosen then GK ever did to Chaos in End Times.

    And sorry but Sigmar from human became God, Gilles is just witch evlen God pawn, he is her slave, like all grail knights.
    "So some verminlords helped him" just some greater demon lend a hand in him no biggy. Don't be so ridiculously dismissive. Not to mention all the incarnates were at middenheim.

    Valten died against archaon.

    Do you see any other humans of the empire becoming gods?

    No, then it doesn't matter since sigmar is trapped in the wind of azyr.
    That Verminlord dont have name, so I call his so. No all incarnates where there, but its was middenheim which decided about world fate.

    Vlaten died to both Archaon and Verminlord who attack him fron back.

    Sigmar can be trapped, still be dont use some elven goddes to become badass GK who is now slave of her will
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,963Registered Users
    Nico_NI said:

    Louen would challenge Karl to a duel, it's the knightly thing to do. And beat him up over and over again.

    So... Bretonnia wins!

    Why would Karl take this challenge ? He know he is not good fighter.
  • Ares354Ares354 Posts: 1,963Registered Users

    Ares354 said:

    ArneSo said:

    The Empire without a doubt.

    Just look at human history. Knights lost their relevance with the rise of Gunpowder weapons.

    The empire represents German renaissance warfare while Bretonia is still deep into the Middle Ages.

    This is a popular myth. Knights were prominent for hundreds of year after the rise of gunpowder. The famous charge of the winged hussars at Vienna was against gunpowder armed troops with cannon. Armor just kept getting thicker to make it bullet proof. In Japan they were still using plate armor in the 19th century despite having access to European firearms because they had thick enough armor to stop a bullet.

    The decline of knights had more to do with social status and economics than weapons. War was being carried out on an industrial scale with hundreds of thousands of men marching to war in Europe. The small noble class meanwhile had transitioned from holding their titles as warrior elite, to more of a managerial class as their land and wealth made them the only ones able to afford an education needed to run the increasingly complex economies of an industrializing continent.
    Nope, dont compere Winged Hissars to Medieval Knight. Armor of WH was way different, there was little to no armor on legs, and power of that formation was devastating charge with good mobility, not armor itsself. Armor of WH was to protect from blunt weapons. Main strategy vs gunpower units, was to waste their shoot, when they were far away, so bullets would do almost nothing, or miss. Then close the gap, that why horses use to be very fast, and had no armor. WH are shock cav, not meant to fight in prolong combat.
    Yes, we don't want to compare armored shock cavalry with lances to... armored shock cavalry with lances. They're completely different and not at all similar.

    One rides a horse, wears plate armor, wields a lance and charges in a tight formation shaped kind of like a triangle.

    The other rides a horse, wears plate armor, wields a lance and charges in a tight formation shaped kind of like a triangle.

    Two 100% different things.
    So you show you know nothing really.

    Cataphract, WH, Feudal Knight are all the same, same tactic, same equipment, same role in battlefield. Yea.

    WH arent armored cav, Caraphract are
  • Nico_NINico_NI Posts: 56Registered Users
    Ares354 said:

    Nico_NI said:

    Louen would challenge Karl to a duel, it's the knightly thing to do. And beat him up over and over again.

    So... Bretonnia wins!

    Why would Karl take this challenge ? He know he is not good fighter.
    Because by refusing he would condemn the Empire to a long a bloody war where many would perish, making him a terrible ruler, and a coward.
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