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Shadow Walkers & Shadow Warriors

UberReptilianUberReptilian The Crystal LabyrinthRegistered Users Posts: 5,487
Since my other thread is probably gonna get derailed (lol), I figured it would be an idea to open the conversation hear. What do you think of these units? My thoughts are Shadow Warriors need a more defined role compared to other the other HE archers and the ROR seriously needs a price cut. Shadow Walkers are doomed as their stuck behind the Naggarythe faction, with the not very good leader Alith Anar. Thoughts?
Post edited by CA_Will#2514 on
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Comments

  • Loupi#8512Loupi#8512 Registered Users Posts: 3,744
    shadow warriors: fine, very good unit
    shadow walkers: need to be available to main HE faction
    The grey: a bit sad, drop price a lot or give them something special, e.g. turn them into shadowwalker ROR at 1300, with all their current abilities.


  • yst#1879yst#1879 Registered Users Posts: 9,984
    They needs to be unlock on main faction. Its crazy to leave such an elite unit on a sub faction.

    Walkers could even use up to $100 worth of cuts or value added. Shades dual weild seems much better
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,352
    Shadow warriors are superb - dont touch them

    The grey need -50g to be great

    Shadow walkers....i can see them being too good with larry but perhaps limit them to 2 in main faction or even 1 and be a ROR in the main faction.
  • Lotus_Moon#2452Lotus_Moon#2452 Registered Users Posts: 12,352
    yst said:

    They needs to be unlock on main faction. Its crazy to leave such an elite unit on a sub faction.

    Walkers could even use up to $100 worth of cuts or value added. Shades dual weild seems much better

    Disagree, walkers do not need buffs, and i worry in main faction they be too strong.

    Its kinda funny that you want to buff HE in this way but i'm opposed to this.

    I think 1 as ROR is fine but other than that i think has potential to be too strong.
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,926
    Walkers could use -2 regular/+2 AP missile damage switch
  • hanenhanen Registered Users Posts: 686
    Green0 said:


    Disagree, walkers do not need buffs, and i worry in main faction they be too strong.

    they have like 3500 HP per unit, some of the lowest u'll find for such gold cost.

    Yes, if you use them perfectly, they can be worth 1100g, however sneeze at them, bombard them with mortars, or a random cav charge and their DPS decreases significantly. Such a unit should be balanced around "average use" and not around " you spend 12+ volleys with all 45 models and then go in melee vs the target you want".

    Even so, I think 50g cost decrease would suffice.
    They have 2 less HP per model but twice the armor of WWs.
  • Modern_Erasmus#3567Modern_Erasmus#3567 Registered Users Posts: 243
    Walkers should be available on the main faction and should have a higher AP ratio.
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,926
    I think the best solution would be:

    1) + 2 AP and - 2 regular missile damage.

    2) Switch to HE roster

    3) Make them cost 1050 in Nagarythe roster
  • Loupi#8512Loupi#8512 Registered Users Posts: 3,744

    I think the best solution would be:

    1) + 2 AP and - 2 regular missile damage.

    2) Switch to HE roster

    3) Make them cost 1050 in Nagarythe roster

    Option 2 please


  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,926
    Loupi_ said:

    I think the best solution would be:

    1) + 2 AP and - 2 regular missile damage.

    2) Switch to HE roster

    3) Make them cost 1050 in Nagarythe roster

    Option 2 please
    I was thinking of all three.

    Three steps to take, not pick one out of three options.
  • Loupi#8512Loupi#8512 Registered Users Posts: 3,744

    Loupi_ said:

    I think the best solution would be:

    1) + 2 AP and - 2 regular missile damage.

    2) Switch to HE roster

    3) Make them cost 1050 in Nagarythe roster

    Option 2 please
    I was thinking of all three.

    Three steps to take, not pick one out of three options.
    Ah okay, well I think they are already pretty much worth their price so I don't really agree on 1 and 3. The thing is it's hard to truly judge their performance when you cant bring them in an army with alarielle, teclis or even mad lad tyrion.


  • CirdanCirdan Registered Users Posts: 807
    Loupi_ said:

    Loupi_ said:

    I think the best solution would be:

    1) + 2 AP and - 2 regular missile damage.

    2) Switch to HE roster

    3) Make them cost 1050 in Nagarythe roster

    Option 2 please
    I was thinking of all three.

    Three steps to take, not pick one out of three options.
    Ah okay, well I think they are already pretty much worth their price so I don't really agree on 1 and 3. The thing is it's hard to truly judge their performance when you cant bring them in an army with alarielle, teclis or even mad lad tyrion.
    *Chad lad Tyrion. Plz.
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,926
    Loupi_ said:

    Loupi_ said:

    I think the best solution would be:

    1) + 2 AP and - 2 regular missile damage.

    2) Switch to HE roster

    3) Make them cost 1050 in Nagarythe roster

    Option 2 please
    I was thinking of all three.

    Three steps to take, not pick one out of three options.
    Ah okay, well I think they are already pretty much worth their price so I don't really agree on 1 and 3. The thing is it's hard to truly judge their performance when you cant bring them in an army with alarielle, teclis or even mad lad tyrion.
    They lack the AP. Sure, they have 5 compared to 3 of standard Archers, but there's only 45 models, with 20 ammo.

    Archers have maximum potential damage of 1088 reg/204 AP per volley.
    Shadow Walkers have max potential damage of 980 ref/225 AP per volley.

    Archers also have 24 ammo. meaning their total potential damage output is 26112/4896 vs 19800/4500 for Walkers.

    You can get almost 2.5 archers for 1 Shadow Walker. Even with a bit more AP, they will still be at best a mediocre option.
  • nonentitynonentity Registered Users Posts: 176
    Any buffs to SW will just make HE vs WE matchup worse -- HE already have the advantage. Sure, SW is niche against other factions, but they don't need to be a common pick -- they are a specialized unit for a specialized role.

    Walkers can be buffed by simply making Alith Anar better -- when is he ever going to get stalk for crying out loud! Again not a bad unit, just a bad subfaction.
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,926
    nonentity said:

    Any buffs to SW will just make HE vs WE matchup worse -- HE already have the advantage. Sure, SW is niche against other factions, but they don't need to be a common pick -- they are a specialized unit for a specialized role.

    Walkers can be buffed by simply making Alith Anar better -- when is he ever going to get stalk for crying out loud! Again not a bad unit, just a bad subfaction.

    No need for Shadow Walkers there, Shadow Warriors are good enough.

    You really need just to get shots on waywatchers, and Walkers have the same range as Warriors, so no advantage, and the increase in AP will not be beneficial vs WE.

    4 Shadow Warriors (3400) + Silver Helms (1000) will always be superior to 4 Shadow Walkers (4400) vs WE.
  • Loupi#8512Loupi#8512 Registered Users Posts: 3,744

    Loupi_ said:

    Loupi_ said:

    I think the best solution would be:

    1) + 2 AP and - 2 regular missile damage.

    2) Switch to HE roster

    3) Make them cost 1050 in Nagarythe roster

    Option 2 please
    I was thinking of all three.

    Three steps to take, not pick one out of three options.
    Ah okay, well I think they are already pretty much worth their price so I don't really agree on 1 and 3. The thing is it's hard to truly judge their performance when you cant bring them in an army with alarielle, teclis or even mad lad tyrion.
    They lack the AP. Sure, they have 5 compared to 3 of standard Archers, but there's only 45 models, with 20 ammo.

    Archers have maximum potential damage of 1088 reg/204 AP per volley.
    Shadow Walkers have max potential damage of 980 ref/225 AP per volley.

    Archers also have 24 ammo. meaning their total potential damage output is 26112/4896 vs 19800/4500 for Walkers.

    You can get almost 2.5 archers for 1 Shadow Walker. Even with a bit more AP, they will still be at best a mediocre option.
    but you also should factor in accuracy to your damage calculation. Shadow walkers are more accurate than waywatchers. Also poison missiles mean they will trade better in skirmish fights. And as you said earlier, they outclass most low-medium range infantry in melee, so I don't think its fair to only consider their ranged damage, they are much more of a hybrid unit.


  • nonentitynonentity Registered Users Posts: 176

    nonentity said:

    Any buffs to SW will just make HE vs WE matchup worse -- HE already have the advantage. Sure, SW is niche against other factions, but they don't need to be a common pick -- they are a specialized unit for a specialized role.

    Walkers can be buffed by simply making Alith Anar better -- when is he ever going to get stalk for crying out loud! Again not a bad unit, just a bad subfaction.

    No need for Shadow Walkers there, Shadow Warriors are good enough.

    You really need just to get shots on waywatchers, and Walkers have the same range as Warriors, so no advantage, and the increase in AP will not be beneficial vs WE.

    4 Shadow Warriors (3400) + Silver Helms (1000) will always be superior to 4 Shadow Walkers (4400) vs WE.

    By SW I mean Shadow Warrior's there (my bad). HE get 4 Shadow Warriors for the cost of 3 WW -- not only do WW have to kill them (in 4 SW have a lot of HP), but WW also need to save enough ammo for HE cav and leaders. WE lose the skirmish hard if both sides play perfectly.

    As for Shadow walkers, they just need a better lord. They have better accuracy than WW which makes them better at sniping low armor characters (say caster with only 15 armor). Poison allow them to win in a skirmish against WW too. Furthermore Shadow walkers were never a unit in tabletop -- they were the leaders of a shadow warrior unit. So them not being terribly common choice is a good thing imo.
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,926
    Loupi_ said:

    Loupi_ said:

    Loupi_ said:

    I think the best solution would be:

    1) + 2 AP and - 2 regular missile damage.

    2) Switch to HE roster

    3) Make them cost 1050 in Nagarythe roster

    Option 2 please
    I was thinking of all three.

    Three steps to take, not pick one out of three options.
    Ah okay, well I think they are already pretty much worth their price so I don't really agree on 1 and 3. The thing is it's hard to truly judge their performance when you cant bring them in an army with alarielle, teclis or even mad lad tyrion.
    They lack the AP. Sure, they have 5 compared to 3 of standard Archers, but there's only 45 models, with 20 ammo.

    Archers have maximum potential damage of 1088 reg/204 AP per volley.
    Shadow Walkers have max potential damage of 980 ref/225 AP per volley.

    Archers also have 24 ammo. meaning their total potential damage output is 26112/4896 vs 19800/4500 for Walkers.

    You can get almost 2.5 archers for 1 Shadow Walker. Even with a bit more AP, they will still be at best a mediocre option.
    but you also should factor in accuracy to your damage calculation. Shadow walkers are more accurate than waywatchers. Also poison missiles mean they will trade better in skirmish fights. And as you said earlier, they outclass most low-medium range infantry in melee, so I don't think its fair to only consider their ranged damage, they are much more of a hybrid unit.
    Ok, yes, but accuracy bonus is not big enough to cover all the downsides.

    Their melee performance is fine, but they need perfect conditions, and they will be magnets for every missile, spell or cav unit on the map.

    Also, armour vs HE is very common, due to their limited options of dealing with it, so even if you keep them healthy and get them onto infantry, that infantry might be armoured and you're out of luck.

    Even with a slight regular/ap switch, shadow warriors will be more dependable.
    nonentity said:

    nonentity said:

    Any buffs to SW will just make HE vs WE matchup worse -- HE already have the advantage. Sure, SW is niche against other factions, but they don't need to be a common pick -- they are a specialized unit for a specialized role.

    Walkers can be buffed by simply making Alith Anar better -- when is he ever going to get stalk for crying out loud! Again not a bad unit, just a bad subfaction.

    No need for Shadow Walkers there, Shadow Warriors are good enough.

    You really need just to get shots on waywatchers, and Walkers have the same range as Warriors, so no advantage, and the increase in AP will not be beneficial vs WE.

    4 Shadow Warriors (3400) + Silver Helms (1000) will always be superior to 4 Shadow Walkers (4400) vs WE.

    By SW I mean Shadow Warrior's there (my bad). HE get 4 Shadow Warriors for the cost of 3 WW -- not only do WW have to kill them (in 4 SW have a lot of HP), but WW also need to save enough ammo for HE cav and leaders. WE lose the skirmish hard if both sides play perfectly.

    As for Shadow walkers, they just need a better lord. They have better accuracy than WW which makes them better at sniping low armor characters (say caster with only 15 armor). Poison allow them to win in a skirmish against WW too. Furthermore Shadow walkers were never a unit in tabletop -- they were the leaders of a shadow warrior unit. So them not being terribly common choice is a good thing imo.
    Shadow Warriors are perfectly fine and a very good unit, I agree.

    Shadow Walkers need help. As someone who plays WE a lot, I personally do not see that having Walkers in HE roster or giving them a bit more AP will impact the matchup negatively.
  • nonentitynonentity Registered Users Posts: 176

    Loupi_ said:

    Loupi_ said:

    Loupi_ said:

    I think the best solution would be:

    1) + 2 AP and - 2 regular missile damage.

    2) Switch to HE roster

    3) Make them cost 1050 in Nagarythe roster

    Option 2 please
    I was thinking of all three.

    Three steps to take, not pick one out of three options.
    Ah okay, well I think they are already pretty much worth their price so I don't really agree on 1 and 3. The thing is it's hard to truly judge their performance when you cant bring them in an army with alarielle, teclis or even mad lad tyrion.
    They lack the AP. Sure, they have 5 compared to 3 of standard Archers, but there's only 45 models, with 20 ammo.

    Archers have maximum potential damage of 1088 reg/204 AP per volley.
    Shadow Walkers have max potential damage of 980 ref/225 AP per volley.

    Archers also have 24 ammo. meaning their total potential damage output is 26112/4896 vs 19800/4500 for Walkers.

    You can get almost 2.5 archers for 1 Shadow Walker. Even with a bit more AP, they will still be at best a mediocre option.
    but you also should factor in accuracy to your damage calculation. Shadow walkers are more accurate than waywatchers. Also poison missiles mean they will trade better in skirmish fights. And as you said earlier, they outclass most low-medium range infantry in melee, so I don't think its fair to only consider their ranged damage, they are much more of a hybrid unit.
    Ok, yes, but accuracy bonus is not big enough to cover all the downsides.

    Their melee performance is fine, but they need perfect conditions, and they will be magnets for every missile, spell or cav unit on the map.

    Also, armour vs HE is very common, due to their limited options of dealing with it, so even if you keep them healthy and get them onto infantry, that infantry might be armoured and you're out of luck.

    Even with a slight regular/ap switch, shadow warriors will be more dependable.
    nonentity said:

    nonentity said:

    Any buffs to SW will just make HE vs WE matchup worse -- HE already have the advantage. Sure, SW is niche against other factions, but they don't need to be a common pick -- they are a specialized unit for a specialized role.

    Walkers can be buffed by simply making Alith Anar better -- when is he ever going to get stalk for crying out loud! Again not a bad unit, just a bad subfaction.

    No need for Shadow Walkers there, Shadow Warriors are good enough.

    You really need just to get shots on waywatchers, and Walkers have the same range as Warriors, so no advantage, and the increase in AP will not be beneficial vs WE.

    4 Shadow Warriors (3400) + Silver Helms (1000) will always be superior to 4 Shadow Walkers (4400) vs WE.

    By SW I mean Shadow Warrior's there (my bad). HE get 4 Shadow Warriors for the cost of 3 WW -- not only do WW have to kill them (in 4 SW have a lot of HP), but WW also need to save enough ammo for HE cav and leaders. WE lose the skirmish hard if both sides play perfectly.

    As for Shadow walkers, they just need a better lord. They have better accuracy than WW which makes them better at sniping low armor characters (say caster with only 15 armor). Poison allow them to win in a skirmish against WW too. Furthermore Shadow walkers were never a unit in tabletop -- they were the leaders of a shadow warrior unit. So them not being terribly common choice is a good thing imo.
    Shadow Warriors are perfectly fine and a very good unit, I agree.

    Shadow Walkers need help. As someone who plays WE a lot, I personally do not see that having Walkers in HE roster or giving them a bit more AP will impact the matchup negatively.
    Watch the Kark (Emp) vs Xiphos (Nagarythe) match (against Hadres as well I believe), Walkers are not bad, just don't sink all your funds into them. I think 1 Walker with 3 Shadow Warrior is enough in most cases anyways.

  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,875

    Loupi_ said:

    Loupi_ said:

    I think the best solution would be:

    1) + 2 AP and - 2 regular missile damage.

    2) Switch to HE roster

    3) Make them cost 1050 in Nagarythe roster

    Option 2 please
    I was thinking of all three.

    Three steps to take, not pick one out of three options.
    Ah okay, well I think they are already pretty much worth their price so I don't really agree on 1 and 3. The thing is it's hard to truly judge their performance when you cant bring them in an army with alarielle, teclis or even mad lad tyrion.
    They lack the AP. Sure, they have 5 compared to 3 of standard Archers, but there's only 45 models, with 20 ammo.

    Archers have maximum potential damage of 1088 reg/204 AP per volley.
    Shadow Walkers have max potential damage of 980 ref/225 AP per volley.

    Archers also have 24 ammo. meaning their total potential damage output is 26112/4896 vs 19800/4500 for Walkers.

    You can get almost 2.5 archers for 1 Shadow Walker. Even with a bit more AP, they will still be at best a mediocre option.
    You don't take more than 1 or 2 Shadow Walkers though, and the face they are the only source of poison on the High Elf roster is massive. Especially with some of the buffs that Alith Anar can bring.

    I think they don't need any changes for the time being, they just need to be available in the main roster. Maybe you should only be able to bring 1 unless Alith Anar is your lord (not sure if this is possible).
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    HE have some good units, like Dragon Princes and stuff, so Shadow Warriors are fine when underperfoming for their price. Maybe make them a bit more expensive to drive the point home.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Green0 said:

    HE have some good units, like Dragon Princes and stuff, so Shadow Warriors are fine when underperfoming for their price. Maybe make them a bit more expensive to drive the point home.

    only if we also make Jezzails 50% more expensive to drive the point home.
    Sorry, is this topic about Shadow Warriors or Jezzails? Stay on topic.

    HE have tons of good shooty units, so they can have a few sucky ones too.
  • TheShiroOfDaltonTheShiroOfDalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    Green0 said:

    Green0 said:

    HE have some good units, like Dragon Princes and stuff, so Shadow Warriors are fine when underperfoming for their price. Maybe make them a bit more expensive to drive the point home.

    only if we also make Jezzails 50% more expensive to drive the point home.
    Sorry, is this topic about Shadow Warriors or Jezzails? Stay on topic.

    HE have tons of good shooty units, so they can have a few sucky ones too.
    my opinion about HE is that Shadow Warriors should get -200g to represent the fact that they are battle-hardened veterans who stop at nothing. It's like this in the lore.
    Nah, HE are fine, they don't need it.
  • buutronbuutron Registered Users Posts: 63
    I've not once seen Shadow Walkers/Warriors used successfully in high level competitive play
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 7,031
    It's really hard to judge their performance in real games I think because to pick them you have to advertise that you'll bring them by picking nagarythe, and when you do that the best option is usually to bring princess as lord and not kite.... :smile: If I could pick them (or even only one) it would be easier to get good value out of them.
    OrkLads said:

    Loupi_ said:

    Loupi_ said:

    I think the best solution would be:

    1) + 2 AP and - 2 regular missile damage.

    2) Switch to HE roster

    3) Make them cost 1050 in Nagarythe roster

    Option 2 please
    I was thinking of all three.

    Three steps to take, not pick one out of three options.
    Ah okay, well I think they are already pretty much worth their price so I don't really agree on 1 and 3. The thing is it's hard to truly judge their performance when you cant bring them in an army with alarielle, teclis or even mad lad tyrion.
    They lack the AP. Sure, they have 5 compared to 3 of standard Archers, but there's only 45 models, with 20 ammo.

    Archers have maximum potential damage of 1088 reg/204 AP per volley.
    Shadow Walkers have max potential damage of 980 ref/225 AP per volley.

    Archers also have 24 ammo. meaning their total potential damage output is 26112/4896 vs 19800/4500 for Walkers.

    You can get almost 2.5 archers for 1 Shadow Walker. Even with a bit more AP, they will still be at best a mediocre option.
    I think they don't need any changes for the time being, they just need to be available in the main roster. Maybe you should only be able to bring 1 unless Alith Anar is your lord (not sure if this is possible).
    I think this is an excellent suggestion for faction specific units. Allow one if the associated lord is not brought. +1
    Don't fear the knockdown. Control it. Embrace it. Love it! :smile:
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