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The Empire infantry feels just artificially bad

JimbakerJimbaker Posts: 1Registered Users
edited October 2019 in General Discussion
I get that the niche of the Empire was originally supposed to be something like average infantry where the magic, cav, and artillery were supposed to pick up the slack, and that seemed to work better before TWW2 when their biggest opponents were Chaos, Orcs, Dwarves, and whatnot. After lots of balance changes and the new factions, especially all 3 elves, the crappiness of the Empire infantry really shines through with hardly any artillery, magic, or cav that really do anything beyond meet what the enemy has.

If the Empire is supposed to be a sort of jack of all trades type faction, then their infantry really should reflect their lore quality. It seems CA tries to stay lore friendly with a lot of units but the Empire really fails to capture this. The men of the Empire are constantly cited for their bravery and discipline above all else, yet their leadership is largely average and even beaten out by some shiftless backstabbing dark elf infantry. Empire spear and halberd formations are the backbone of their army that provide a very defensive wall. While it'd be nice if their defensive stats reflected this a little more, they're really not the worst offenders.

Empire swordsmen and greatswords are pretty pitiful. Swordsmen are, in universe, more elite than spearmen, detached as specialty units to provide more of a mobile, offensive pressure. Swordsmen now are seldom used online and they're always used as a point of comparison as the bare-bones, crappy stock infantry.

Greatswords really disappoint me. They go up against demons and chaos warriors in lore with heavy armor everywhere but their backs because they fight to the last man. For how expensive they are, they really should be able to put up more of a fight and have much higher leadership. They're obviously no Swordmasters or Chosen but their rank on the melee infantry spreadsheet as only 27th best is laughable.
Post edited by BillyRuffian on
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Comments

  • SephlockSephlock Posts: 2,358Registered Users
    ***Cries in Bretonnian Infantry***
    #JusticeForUshoran #RuneGolems #RuneGuardians #ShardDragons #Thunderbarges #Stormfiends #BigMonsters #MoreDakka
  • angry_rat_loverangry_rat_lover Posts: 1,086Registered Users
    CA balances their game around MP
    Soon
  • MarkerMarker Posts: 1,102Registered Users
    edited October 2019
    There will be patching to come, please post this in the Feedback&Suggestions as well.

    However I must say that every army has different strategy's to work with against every other army or setup.

    u can not expect every setup to work just as well against every other setup, or in short there is not really a one trick pony.

    How about u tell us how u approach MP with the Empire with what setup? and what setup are u using against the three elf factions? I don't really agree on u on your points other then Great swords could use a buff.

    But we can't really help u out either if we don't know if its the setup, the strategy or micro management u are doing wrong.

    U also can't compare infantry with other infantry and looking at the stats or cost only, u also need to look at the faction in its entirety and how it preforms as a whole.


    EMPIRE = MOST HERO OPTIONS?
    Post edited by Marker on
  • UagrimUagrim Posts: 728Registered Users
    Jimbaker said:

    I get that the niche of the Empire was originally supposed to be something like average infantry where the magic, cav, and artillery were supposed to pick up the slack, and that seemed to work better before TWW2 when their biggest opponents were Chaos, Orcs, Dwarves, and whatnot. After lots of balance changes and the new factions, especially all 3 elves, the crappiness of the Empire infantry really shines through with hardly any artillery, magic, or cav that really do anything beyond meet what the enemy has.

    If the Empire is supposed to be a sort of jack of all trades type faction, then their infantry really should reflect their lore quality. It seems CA tries to stay lore friendly with a lot of units but the Empire really fails to capture this. The men of the Empire are constantly cited for their bravery and discipline above all else, yet their leadership is largely average and even beaten out by some shiftless backstabbing dark elf infantry. Empire spear and halberd formations are the backbone of their army that provide a very defensive wall. While it'd be nice if their defensive stats reflected this a little more, they're really not the worst offenders.

    Empire swordsmen and greatswords are pretty pitiful. Swordsmen are, in universe, more elite than spearmen, detached as specialty units to provide more of a mobile, offensive pressure. Swordsmen now are seldom used online and they're always used as a point of comparison as the bare-bones, crappy stock infantry.

    Greatswords really disappoint me. They go up against demons and chaos warriors in lore with heavy armor everywhere but their backs because they fight to the last man. For how expensive they are, they really should be able to put up more of a fight and have much higher leadership. They're obviously no Swordmasters or Chosen but their rank on the melee infantry spreadsheet as only 27th best is laughable.

    Empire infantry is average you are comparing them to elven units which aren't average, something also reflected in cost. And their missiles still work the same way as in WH1.

    The idea that the empire is a jackofalltrades kind of faction went out of the window with demigryphnights which pretty much run over almost every other cav in the game.

    As for leadership they aren't bad Bretonnia, Orks, Beastmen, skinks, marauders all units and faction with worse leadership. Often at similar or greater prices.

    Also what spreadsheet?
  • BRiiTASH2BRiiTASH2 Posts: 392Registered Users
    Sephlock said:

    ***Cries in Bretonnian Infantry***

    Bretonnian men at arms, when buffed by a grail relique, have 62 leadership, and at a cost of just 250. Men at arms Shields also gain a silver shield at a cost of 325, 75 less than swordsmen and 50 less than spearmen with shields. IMO, swordsmen should be reduced to 375 to bring them inline with spearmen with shields.
    Spearmen with shields and Swordsmen perform about as well as eachother in the long run, spearmen wont kill anything but will hold the line longer due to their higher melee defence whereas the swordsman deal a little more damage to enemy units but wont hold the line for as long.

    I think reducing swordsmen to 375 would make them slightly more balanced cost wise, as my decision in MP when choosing swordsmen or spearmen with shields is, do I want to play defensively and have a large charge resist from spearmen, or do i want to be slighlty more aggressive and meet their charge with my own using swordsmen and see who breaks first?

    This is coming from someone who plays a lot of Bretonnia, Vampire Coast, Empire, Norsca, so I am very familiar with the utility and cost effectiveness of chaff infantry. I personally rate Men at Arms Swords above Empire Swordsman atm because you can field 3 Men at arms for the cost of 2 swordsman units, and the men at arms are also expendable so no morale debuff for more important units, heroes and lords when they inevitably do break, and a grail relique at only 500 can easily keep men at arms in a fight for longer with the immunity to pyschology it grants them.

    Cheap as chips chaff infantry, decent melee stats, silver shields, expendable and a cheap support unit really makes men at arms a superior alternative to swordsmen right now.

    Dont get me started on Greatswords however, those boys should cost 850 at most and need a serious leadership buff upwards of 80 to make em viable. High armour be damned when artillery and AP missiles shred those poor buggers before they can close the enemies frontline. Either that or they need immunity to fear as a unit trait, they are supposed to fight to the death afterall. I wouldnt go as far as to make em unbreakable, that might be too much considering Swordmasters of Hoeth arent unbreakble, but I would like to see them be a little more resilient to fear at least.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Posts: 2,261Registered Users
    Empire infantry is exactly where it needs to be. The Empire is a "combined arms" faction, meaning that if you rely too heavily on any one aspect of the roster, then you will fail.
  • UagrimUagrim Posts: 728Registered Users
    BRiiTASH2 said:


    Dont get me started on Greatswords however, those boys should cost 850 at most and need a serious leadership buff upwards of 80 to make em viable. High armour be damned when artillery and AP missiles shred those poor buggers before they can close the enemies frontline. Either that or they need immunity to fear as a unit trait, they are supposed to fight to the death afterall. I wouldnt go as far as to make em unbreakable, that might be too much considering Swordmasters of Hoeth arent unbreakble, but I would like to see them be a little more resilient to fear at least.

    UNBREAKABLE? On Greatswords? Are you mad?

    That would honestly be broken not to mention it doesn't make any sense, fear and terror are exactly the weapons they are supposed to be weak against.

    Also the only greatweapon unit that is resistant to missle fire are swordsmasters all other also get shredded by ranged units.
  • FossowayFossoway Posts: 2,534Registered Users
    I quickly realized that you need the Honest Steel skill ASAP (red line melee buff for state troops) if you want them to hold the line. Once you got those, they are actually pretty decent as a frontline, but it's quite disappointing that you have absolutely to invest into those skills if you want them to be viable.

    It's even more obvious with Markus. Lizardmen infantry just tear into swordsmen line like butter, you need to rush those skills to even stand a chance.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 22,184Registered Users
    Fossoway said:

    I quickly realized that you need the Honest Steel skill ASAP (red line melee buff for state troops) if you want them to hold the line. Once you got those, they are actually pretty decent as a frontline, but it's quite disappointing that you have absolutely to invest into those skills if you want them to be viable.

    It's even more obvious with Markus. Lizardmen infantry just tear into swordsmen line like butter, you need to rush those skills to even stand a chance.

    They are just regular humans, why exactly should they be able to stand up to purpose-bred warriors like Saurus on their own?

    This whole thread is folly, state troops are actually quite good for their cost. If you want sturdier frontline troops, you should try WoC, Dwarfs or LM.

  • hanesdavhanesdav Posts: 851Registered Users
    OP is actually correct but other factions also have similar problems. In MP not many people seem to complain about this but in SP this is very big issue. Some factions including The Empire have very big problems against elite spams. Because of Supply Lines you can't recruit too many armies and this will usually make you outnumbered. In one of my campaigns my two Empire armies were attacked by three Norscan armies. Norscans had mainly elite units including 6 Mammoths. Few seconds after they charged me half of my army was terrified and other half routed normally.

    I also would like to mention something about Greatswords. Almost every faction in the game can buff elite units with extra melee defence and melee attack. The Empire can't. Greatswords can recieve only completely useless buffs. Their armor is supposed to be crafted by Dwarfs. This is actually very interesting because Marauder Champions have 80 armor and Greatswords have 85. If you look at Marauder Champion models you will notice two thing. Their armor is rusty garbage and large part of their body is completely exposed. Why is their armor value almost identical???
  • yolordmcswagyolordmcswag Posts: 1,624Registered Users
    I think they are fine, I would argue that a lot of other races have had their infantry nerfed far more. In TT, empire troops were pretty bad. The only troops worse were the horde-type units like goblins, zombies, skeletons, skavenslaves etc. I would say that both basic elven and dwarven troops have suffered worse in TWWH, they are barely stronger than the human ones despite being a lot better in TT.
  • JadawinKhanidiJadawinKhanidi Posts: 1,147Registered Users
    I couldn't disagree more, playing Empire for the first time since my very first campaign back in WH1 and I'm amazed how strong and versatile they are. Awesome magic. Hilariously powerful and fun artillery. Great cavalry. Good missile units. Yes their infantry is mediocre, but it has to be. Because Empire is super strong everywhere else.
  • ErathilErathil Posts: 608Registered Users
    I have very mixed thoughts on Empire infantry. One thing that really bugged me on my Markus playthrough, though, was that by mid-game you have to pivot from Swordsmen and Spearmen into Halberdiers and Greatswords.

    It feels a tad artificial. Greatswords, especially, are supposed to be the elite heavy infantry of the Empire, but Swordsmen just... stop being campaign viable after a while.

    Worse, the best quality of the Empire's infantry is their ability to just hold the line. They have above average leadership and staying power. But their elite options all lose shields, making them vulnerable to missiles. The only option to counteract that is to dip back into the much worse stats of the tier one and two swords-and-spears. Many factions lack shields in their higher tier infantry, but the Empire only has mid-tier infantry, and it seems particularly poignant with their roster.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 22,184Registered Users
    Erathil said:

    I have very mixed thoughts on Empire infantry. One thing that really bugged me on my Markus playthrough, though, was that by mid-game you have to pivot from Swordsmen and Spearmen into Halberdiers and Greatswords.

    It feels a tad artificial. Greatswords, especially, are supposed to be the elite heavy infantry of the Empire, but Swordsmen just... stop being campaign viable after a while.

    Worse, the best quality of the Empire's infantry is their ability to just hold the line. They have above average leadership and staying power. But their elite options all lose shields, making them vulnerable to missiles. The only option to counteract that is to dip back into the much worse stats of the tier one and two swords-and-spears. Many factions lack shields in their higher tier infantry, but the Empire only has mid-tier infantry, and it seems particularly poignant with their roster.

    That's just the game enforcing doomstacking, a long standing issue for all factions.

  • ardeathwingardeathwing Posts: 78Registered Users
    edited October 2019
    Completely agree with JadawinKhanidi.
    Infantry is the only mediocre part of the vast Empire roster. And even then you have options there - halberds/greatswords/cheap alternatives.
    Huge part of the game is balanced by unit COST, not unit visuals.
    So in short, if you are swimming in money forget about the infantry and get 19 steam tanks / dem knights.
    If you want a balanced stack - rely on your strenghts - artillery, ranged troops, tanks, cav, skirmish cav etc...or buff up your infantry with the amazing warrior priests.
    As a third alternative, play as Gelt and single-handedly decimate half the opponent force with 2-3 final transmutations. Done.
  • hanesdavhanesdav Posts: 851Registered Users

    Completely agree with JadawinKhanidi.
    Infantry is the only mediocre part of the vast Empire roster. And even then you have options there - halberds/greatswords/cheap alternatives.
    Huge part of the game is balanced by unit COST, not unit visuals.
    So in short, if you are swimming in money froget about the infantry and get 19 steam tanks / dem knights.
    If you want a balanced stack - rely on your strenghts - artillery, ranged troops, tanks, cav, skirmish cav etc...or buff up your infantry with the amazing warrior priests.
    As a third alternative, paly as Gelt and single handedly decimate half the opponent force with 2-3 final transmutations. Done.

    That doesn't work against elite spams. If your entire main line gets terrified in few seconds of fighting your missile units and cavalry will not be able to do anything. This mainly AI issue but if CA is not willing to fix this then they should at least buff some skills and techs.
  • ardeathwingardeathwing Posts: 78Registered Users
    edited October 2019
    hanesdav said:

    Completely agree with JadawinKhanidi.
    Infantry is the only mediocre part of the vast Empire roster. And even then you have options there - halberds/greatswords/cheap alternatives.
    Huge part of the game is balanced by unit COST, not unit visuals.
    So in short, if you are swimming in money froget about the infantry and get 19 steam tanks / dem knights.
    If you want a balanced stack - rely on your strenghts - artillery, ranged troops, tanks, cav, skirmish cav etc...or buff up your infantry with the amazing warrior priests.
    As a third alternative, paly as Gelt and single handedly decimate half the opponent force with 2-3 final transmutations. Done.

    That doesn't work against elite spams. If your entire main line gets terrified in few seconds of fighting your missile units and cavalry will not be able to do anything. This mainly AI issue but if CA is not willing to fix this then they should at least buff some skills and techs.
    How is this an AI issue when in the current version you have the Empire stomp everyone 99% of the time?
    It's not a player issue either, with a few heroes or the new special local unit for altdorf - Carroburg Greatswords, your front line becomes quite hard to break.
    Vs elite spams, bring your own elite troops (which as already discussed are not infantry) and profit.
  • MarkerMarker Posts: 1,102Registered Users
    edited October 2019
    Fossoway said:

    I quickly realized that you need the Honest Steel skill ASAP (red line melee buff for state troops) if you want them to hold the line. Once you got those, they are actually pretty decent as a frontline, but it's quite disappointing that you have absolutely to invest into those skills if you want them to be viable.

    It's even more obvious with Markus. Lizardmen infantry just tear into swordsmen line like butter, you need to rush those skills to even stand a chance.

    U need to make use of your ranged firepower early game, it is superior against the Lizardman, specially with some cavalry.

    Are we forgetting that the Empire has the most hero options of all factions?
  • SchepelSchepel Senior Member Posts: 1,515Registered Users

    I couldn't disagree more, playing Empire for the first time since my very first campaign back in WH1 and I'm amazed how strong and versatile they are. Awesome magic. Hilariously powerful and fun artillery. Great cavalry. Good missile units. Yes their infantry is mediocre, but it has to be. Because Empire is super strong everywhere else.

    This.

    Empire is a power house. It is also a mistake to rush the red upgrades. The blue line is where it is at with lightning strike and a severe upkeep reduction.

    (Playing at VH)
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Posts: 1,991Registered Users
    BRiiTASH2 said:

    Sephlock said:

    ***Cries in Bretonnian Infantry***

    Bretonnian men at arms, when buffed by a grail relique, have 62 leadership, and at a cost of just 250. Men at arms Shields also gain a silver shield at a cost of 325, 75 less than swordsmen and 50 less than spearmen with shields. IMO, swordsmen should be reduced to 375 to bring them inline with spearmen with shields.
    Spearmen with shields and Swordsmen perform about as well as eachother in the long run, spearmen wont kill anything but will hold the line longer due to their higher melee defence whereas the swordsman deal a little more damage to enemy units but wont hold the line for as long.

    I think reducing swordsmen to 375 would make them slightly more balanced cost wise, as my decision in MP when choosing swordsmen or spearmen with shields is, do I want to play defensively and have a large charge resist from spearmen, or do i want to be slighlty more aggressive and meet their charge with my own using swordsmen and see who breaks first?

    This is coming from someone who plays a lot of Bretonnia, Vampire Coast, Empire, Norsca, so I am very familiar with the utility and cost effectiveness of chaff infantry. I personally rate Men at Arms Swords above Empire Swordsman atm because you can field 3 Men at arms for the cost of 2 swordsman units, and the men at arms are also expendable so no morale debuff for more important units, heroes and lords when they inevitably do break, and a grail relique at only 500 can easily keep men at arms in a fight for longer with the immunity to pyschology it grants them.

    Cheap as chips chaff infantry, decent melee stats, silver shields, expendable and a cheap support unit really makes men at arms a superior alternative to swordsmen right now.

    Dont get me started on Greatswords however, those boys should cost 850 at most and need a serious leadership buff upwards of 80 to make em viable. High armour be damned when artillery and AP missiles shred those poor buggers before they can close the enemies frontline. Either that or they need immunity to fear as a unit trait, they are supposed to fight to the death afterall. I wouldnt go as far as to make em unbreakable, that might be too much considering Swordmasters of Hoeth arent unbreakble, but I would like to see them be a little more resilient to fear at least.
    agree the only reason they(brets) beat empire on the infantry front is this. however empire infantry triple gold shevs outperform more elite infantry for cost. i mean empire spear men and swordsmen
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Posts: 2,261Registered Users
    Schepel said:

    I couldn't disagree more, playing Empire for the first time since my very first campaign back in WH1 and I'm amazed how strong and versatile they are. Awesome magic. Hilariously powerful and fun artillery. Great cavalry. Good missile units. Yes their infantry is mediocre, but it has to be. Because Empire is super strong everywhere else.

    This.

    Empire is a power house. It is also a mistake to rush the red upgrades. The blue line is where it is at with lightning strike and a severe upkeep reduction.

    (Playing at VH)
    Lightning Strike is for P*ssies..
  • mightygloinmightygloin Posts: 1,746Registered Users
    Empire infantry gets the job done, they are just humans after all. However Swordsmen's weakness stems from Spearmen being too good at similar cost. Swordsmen could be made slightly more elite, they also had more WS than Spearmen on TT.

    CA balances their game around MP

    But MP in this game still feels like an afterthought, that can't be the reason.
  • zinsncabszinsncabs Posts: 680Registered Users

    I couldn't disagree more, playing Empire for the first time since my very first campaign back in WH1 and I'm amazed how strong and versatile they are. Awesome magic. Hilariously powerful and fun artillery. Great cavalry. Good missile units. Yes their infantry is mediocre, but it has to be. Because Empire is super strong everywhere else.

    And herein lies the issue. Comparing Empire infantry to Helve, Dwarf, Lizardmen infantry etc. is the wrong approach to take because infantry never just fight infantry. Empire infantry are fine when you consider them as part of a whole that also includes missile infantry, calvary and artillery.

    TEARS FOR THE SALT GOD !!! MODS FOR THE BUTHURT !!!
  • hanesdavhanesdav Posts: 851Registered Users

    hanesdav said:

    Completely agree with JadawinKhanidi.
    Infantry is the only mediocre part of the vast Empire roster. And even then you have options there - halberds/greatswords/cheap alternatives.
    Huge part of the game is balanced by unit COST, not unit visuals.
    So in short, if you are swimming in money froget about the infantry and get 19 steam tanks / dem knights.
    If you want a balanced stack - rely on your strenghts - artillery, ranged troops, tanks, cav, skirmish cav etc...or buff up your infantry with the amazing warrior priests.
    As a third alternative, paly as Gelt and single handedly decimate half the opponent force with 2-3 final transmutations. Done.

    That doesn't work against elite spams. If your entire main line gets terrified in few seconds of fighting your missile units and cavalry will not be able to do anything. This mainly AI issue but if CA is not willing to fix this then they should at least buff some skills and techs.
    How is this an AI issue when in the current version you have the Empire stomp everyone 99% of the time?
    It's not a player issue either, with a few heroes or the new special local unit for altdorf - Carroburg Greatswords, your front line becomes quite hard to break.
    Vs elite spams, bring your own elite troops (which as already discussed are not infantry) and profit.
    Firstly you can get one Carroburg Greatswords per 15 turns. That is not going to change anything. Secondly AI cheats with everything. In my campaigns Karl always confederates entire Empire without doing anything and gains around 40 settlements in very short amount of time meanwhile VC have around 6 settlements. This is AI issue. MP seems to be balanced but SP is different because of elite spams and AI cheats.
  • RikisRikis Posts: 1,250Registered Users
    Compare them to other factions tier 1 infantry that isn't a dwarf, elf, lizardmen and they perform well. Even agaisn't lizardmen they perform well against there real tier 1's, the skinks.

    Honestly, the empire seems well balanced to me in my current Wulfhart campaign. Only issue I have is I went infantry heavy in the start when I should have gone range heavy with a few anvils. Also, I never remembered rocket batteries being so damn effective in the past!
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Posts: 3,357Registered Users
    Elves, Lizardmen, Chaos, Dwarfs, and Greenskins are all noted for having above average infantry. The Empire are noted for having average infantry. The Undead, Skaven, Beastmen, and Bretonnia all have below average infantry. This is how it bears out in the fluff, and this is how it bears out in TW.

    Nothing is wrong.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Posts: 1,991Registered Users

    Elves, Lizardmen, Chaos, Dwarfs, and Greenskins are all noted for having above average infantry. The Empire are noted for having average infantry. The Undead, Skaven, Beastmen, and Bretonnia all have below average infantry. This is how it bears out in the fluff, and this is how it bears out in TW.

    Nothing is wrong.

    Elves, Lizardmen, Chaos, Dwarfs, and Greenskins are all noted for having above average infantry. The Empire are noted for having average infantry. The Undead, Skaven, Beastmen, and Bretonnia all have below average infantry. This is how it bears out in the fluff, and this is how it bears out in TW.

    Nothing is wrong.

    both empire and greenskins become amazing with veterancy
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • Aventus_MaximusAventus_Maximus Posts: 352Registered Users
    LOLOLOLOL he's so naive he beliefs the propaganda lolololol

    of course you need warhero's with the foe's the enemy's facing.

    Personally i find that swordsmen and halberdiers do a pretty good job costwise





    Male Parta Male Dilabuntur – ‘What has been wrongly gained is wrongly lost.’
    Fiat Lux – ‘Let there be light.’
    Alea Jacta Est – ‘The die is cast.’
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Posts: 13,530Registered Users, Moderators
    I quite like Empire infantry. Their Halberdiers especially.
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  • zinsncabszinsncabs Posts: 680Registered Users

    Elves, Lizardmen, Chaos, Dwarfs, and Greenskins are all noted for having above average infantry. The Empire are noted for having average infantry. The Undead, Skaven, Beastmen, and Bretonnia all have below average infantry. This is how it bears out in the fluff, and this is how it bears out in TW.

    Nothing is wrong.

    Elves, Lizardmen, Chaos, Dwarfs, and Greenskins are all noted for having above average infantry. The Empire are noted for having average infantry. The Undead, Skaven, Beastmen, and Bretonnia all have below average infantry. This is how it bears out in the fluff, and this is how it bears out in TW.

    Nothing is wrong.

    both empire and greenskins become amazing with veterancy
    Veterancy and red line Lord skills. With these, Empire state troops become pretty damn effective at holding the line so that their calvary, missile infantry and artillery can bring the pain.

    TEARS FOR THE SALT GOD !!! MODS FOR THE BUTHURT !!!
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