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Nakai need a buff

AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,443
hello friends

so since the new patch note is gonna come soon, I just wanted to bring attention to this once again.

I honestly believe Nakai needs a buff, mainly in HP, it needs to get up to 5600, atm it sits at 5200 which is extremely low for a monster this size.

when you compare him to Throgg the difference is just crazy.

Nakai vs Throgg comparison

disadvantage
+150 cost
-750 HP
-6 speed
-10 MD
-Frostbite
-28 BvL
-26 CB
-Regen

advantage
+65 armor
+10 LD
+25 WS

like **** this is just ridiculous...

Armor is super usefull as a stat, but everybody bring AP-Antilarge against the Lizardmen, so he is always vulnerable...

I don't want a cost decrease as its ust really boring and barely solve anything it just makes it less flagrant, And honestly he would need -250 to be decently prized in comparison with Throgg.

What I honestly think is :
+400 HP ( still 350 lower than Throgg)
+15 BvI

that honestly is the bare **** minimum imo...
He could honestly get more, but Id rather start with this and see how it goes.

I could analyse how I feel he performs badly in actual matches, but I think you get the point of that. Or if not Ill maybe detail it later.




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Comments

  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,361
    edited November 2019
    Frostbite alone is a massive advantage, its actually fine for him to have higher hp than throg tbh.

    Nakais hugely overpriced without a doubt. Both throgg and orion r $1600 not only they r cheaper they both have higher hp as well. Orion is 20% missile resist also, xtra 5% from regulars. Sartg is $1650 with the highest hp over 6130

    Nakais a generalist with neither anti inf or large, doesnt have any regen capability, unbreakable. Mundane af, no magic, lowest def of all just 40 with orion, worst charge, hes just a really bad lord at $1750. Have some bloody armor who dies the quickest to gunfire of the 4. Wouldnt even get picked at $1600 tbh, he provides no edge to your army whatsoever.

    He needs like -$200 or at least those amount of buffs. Hp should also be the highest of the 4. He shouldnt get any anti tho, should stay a generalist imo
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  • Modern_ErasmusModern_Erasmus Registered Users Posts: 201
    Yeah, Nakai is definitely overpriced and underpowered compared to the other monstrous infantry lords. He does have some pretty great aoe buffs that are arguably better than Throgg’s bound abilities, but not nearly to compensate his significantly worse stats and survivability.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 636
    Yep, he's almost strictly worse than Throgg and nearly useless in competitive play at the moment.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,727
    edited November 2019
    Nakai has much better AOEs buffs. There is no reason why he should be as strong as Throgg.
    +44 MA, 22 phys resist with rampage vs +26 MA +16 LD. Nakai buff are much stronger.
    Constant perfect vigor in AOE is several tiers better than Throggs crown that gives unbreakable for short duration. Perfect vigor is an extremely strong thing in WH.

    Add to this that Nakai has additional AOE debuff.

    Yeah, Throgg is better in melee, but Nakai abilities are much stronger.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,727

    Yep, he's almost strictly worse than Throgg and nearly useless in competitive play at the moment.

    He works fine in blob builds. The only thing that hinder him are a vast list of SEMs that you can select in LZD roster. And it is a huge competition for SEM slots here.

    Norsca. Has only Mammonths, Manticores, Frost wyrms and rarely picked Giants that are in competition for SEM slots with Throgg. And nonmammonth or Throgg Lord are quite overpriced in Norsca for what they provide.
  • EnergyzedEnergyzed Registered Users Posts: 368
    He surelly needs some kind of a buff, from my point of view he needs +300HP and -15 AP for +25 BvI. That way at least he can have a niche.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,443
    edited November 2019
    tank3487 said:

    Nakai has much better AOEs buffs. There is no reason why he should be as strong as Throgg.
    +44 MA, 22 phys resist with rampage vs +26 MA +16 LD. Nakai buff are much stronger.
    Constant perfect vigor in AOE is several tiers better than Throggs crown that gives unbreakable for short duration. Perfect vigor is an extremely strong thing in WH.

    Add to this that Nakai has additional AOE debuff.

    Yeah, Throgg is better in melee, but Nakai abilities are much stronger.

    Yeah though with all that he is 2300 gold which is much much more expensive than Throgg, so he should be much more powerfull fully kitted out. But in terms of base he is so much weaker and more expensive. His aoe buffs overall makes him on par with throff, but he cost 400 more

    @CA_Duck could we have a word on this ?
    I know that you are probably occupied with the new DLC, but could we have your take on this ?
    Post edited by AIMA_Dracklor on


  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 2,700
    On top of all that, he is prone to getting knocked down around.
  • Lazy_captainLazy_captain Registered Users Posts: 27
    Nakai is fairly worst than throgg cause he is more prone to getting knocked back and Nakai having less mass than throgg makes things worst for him.

    Nakai has = 2700 mass
    While throgg has 5000

    They should probably give him more survivability with extra 300 hp, probably turn his MD to 45, and give him the ignore forest trait he is the spirit of the jungle manifest

    Iam also still slaty about him not getting his original unique weapon, the sacred blade of quetzl.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,443

    Nakai is fairly worst than throgg cause he is more prone to getting knocked back and Nakai having less mass than throgg makes things worst for him.

    Nakai has = 2700 mass
    While throgg has 5000

    They should probably give him more survivability with extra 300 hp, probably turn his MD to 45, and give him the ignore forest trait he is the spirit of the jungle manifest

    Iam also still slaty about him not getting his original unique weapon, the sacred blade of quetzl.

    Agreed, honestly this guy should be stronger than Throgg and just stay more expensive its stupid that he is one: More expensive and weaker than the Troll...


  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,804
    I don't think throgg is the best comparison. Compare him to the kroxigor ancient.

    For 550 he only gets 60 AP, 11MA and minor stat buffs, and loses his bonus vs infantry. I think he is in a similar position to Durthu in that the generic version is a much better more cost effective choice.

    Perhaps some physical resistance and some sort of attack modifier (e.g magic attacks and anti-large/infantry) could be a nice buff.

  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,443
    Loupi_ said:

    I don't think throgg is the best comparison. Compare him to the kroxigor ancient.

    For 550 he only gets 60 AP, 11MA and minor stat buffs, and loses his bonus vs infantry. I think he is in a similar position to Durthu in that the generic version is a much better more cost effective choice.

    Perhaps some physical resistance and some sort of attack modifier (e.g magic attacks and anti-large/infantry) could be a nice buff.

    Wow ok this comparison shows even more why he is so bad


  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,543
    he's good at blobbing with his Physical Resist. ability. I'd be wary of buffing him.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,804
    Green0 said:

    he's good at blobbing with his Physical Resist. ability. I'd be wary of buffing him.

    its only 17 seconds, plus the kroxigor ancient has equally good items for cheaper. giving him a base of like 15% phys resist and magic attacks+antilarge/infantry wont make him any better for blob builds really (i.e his blobs wont get better), he'd just get better in some duelling/combat situations.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,443
    Green0 said:

    he's good at blobbing with his Physical Resist. ability. I'd be wary of buffing him.

    Its buff to him, not his blobing ability. So its wouldnt really make a difference, hes good at bloving exept against any faction that has AP missiles, size big hitbox and low HP for a monster he dies quickly.

    I think the comparison to Throgg or the ancient kroc is a good demonstration of why he is underpowered


  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 753
    I can't say whether he needs a buff or not but I just wanted to add this info that seems relevant to the conversation.

    In this test Throgg gets 483 kills


    In the same test Nakai gets 618 kills (the graphic for Kroq gar and Nakai's kills are switched by mistake)

  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,443

    I can't say whether he needs a buff or not but I just wanted to add this info that seems relevant to the conversation.

    In this test Throgg gets 483 kills


    In the same test Nakai gets 618 kills (the graphic for Kroq gar and Nakai's kills are switched by mistake)

    This is 100% normal as Throgg is focused anto-large while Nakai is generalist and this he is gonna do better against infantry. Plus the infantry chosen are clanrats which do NOT have AP thus their attacks will do more damage to throgg than to Nakai as armor is the only advantage nakai has. Make them fight polearm infantry or GW and you will see a better picture.


  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,875
    Probably best to just give him a cost decrease, he has good items and abilities just overpriced at base.
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,443
    OrkLads said:

    Probably best to just give him a cost decrease, he has good items and abilities just overpriced at base.

    Yeah though even with a price decrease to same cost as Throgg he would be underpoered compare to him and ancoent kroxigor.

    Id prefer a stat buff as its also more fun. Give him a bit more of a purpose, giving him anti-infantry would give him sort of a niche and make it more fun


  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,875

    OrkLads said:

    Probably best to just give him a cost decrease, he has good items and abilities just overpriced at base.

    Yeah though even with a price decrease to same cost as Throgg he would be underpoered compare to him and ancoent kroxigor.

    Id prefer a stat buff as its also more fun. Give him a bit more of a purpose, giving him anti-infantry would give him sort of a niche and make it more fun
    Nah, 120 armour vs 55 is a big deal. Non-ap archers own Throgg, don't do much at all to Nakai. +10 leadership too.

    If he got -150 he would be balanced, especially because that perfect vigour item is pretty amazing.
  • Lazy_captainLazy_captain Registered Users Posts: 27
    Id really recommends his abilities a cooldown reduction, currently he dosent utalize his abilities very efficiently and make his MD atleast 45
  • M3HowM3How Registered Users Posts: 84
    OrkLads said:

    OrkLads said:

    Probably best to just give him a cost decrease, he has good items and abilities just overpriced at base.

    Yeah though even with a price decrease to same cost as Throgg he would be underpoered compare to him and ancoent kroxigor.

    Id prefer a stat buff as its also more fun. Give him a bit more of a purpose, giving him anti-infantry would give him sort of a niche and make it more fun
    Nah, 120 armour vs 55 is a big deal. Non-ap archers own Throgg, don't do much at all to Nakai. +10 leadership too.

    If he got -150 he would be balanced, especially because that perfect vigour item is pretty amazing.
    The thing is... Who brings none ap archers vs LM?
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  • LamentationsLamentations Registered Users Posts: 173
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,543
    edited December 2019
    M3How said:

    OrkLads said:

    OrkLads said:

    Probably best to just give him a cost decrease, he has good items and abilities just overpriced at base.

    Yeah though even with a price decrease to same cost as Throgg he would be underpoered compare to him and ancoent kroxigor.

    Id prefer a stat buff as its also more fun. Give him a bit more of a purpose, giving him anti-infantry would give him sort of a niche and make it more fun
    Nah, 120 armour vs 55 is a big deal. Non-ap archers own Throgg, don't do much at all to Nakai. +10 leadership too.

    If he got -150 he would be balanced, especially because that perfect vigour item is pretty amazing.
    The thing is... Who brings none ap archers vs LM?
    this is not how balancing works. You can’t say “I don’t like this and that feature because unit X hardcounters it”.

    You can apply this logic to every unit in the game.

    Vs Steam Tank, bring Marauder Throwing Axes.

    Vs Phoenix Guard bring Bjuna + Chosen GW

    Vs Carnosaurs, bring Light Wizard + 3 Handgunners.

    In truth, not all factions even have AP missiles, those that do won’t pick 12400g of them and might not even pick any because they expect you to pick a Light Slann for example vs which AP missiles are not that useful. On average, I would say people will pick 2 AP missile units vs Lizardmen, because you need to prepare vs other unit types also. 2 AP missile units isn't a lot, you can stay out of range, or you can approach from the side so that only 1 is shooting you or the enemy needs to break his formation, or you can bring units to harass his missiles, like Manticore summons or Terradons. Arguing that Nakai is weak to AP missiles sounds like you lazily rushing in like a headless chicken and getting rightfully punished for it. The options to prevent lord sniping are there really for ALL factions minus except a few like Beastmen.

    120 armor is a huge deal because it makes you immune to a lot of units in this game. Of course not all.
    Post edited by Green0 on
  • Lazy_captainLazy_captain Registered Users Posts: 27
    Who dosent bring AP against lizardmen in general?
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,543
    edited December 2019

    Who dosent bring AP against lizardmen in general?

    Smart people really who also build against a 5 Saurus rush, against Terradons, against mass LZ cav, against Chameleons, against Salamander builds... you really need to bring a balanced army to deal with all possible LZ threats.

    On ladder very often I see the following army brought vs me (I play a bunch of factions including HE, Empire and Skaven but the army barely changes)

    - Lord on Stegadon (Tehenhauin or Mazda)
    - 4 Saurus
    - 1 Temple Guard
    - 1 more mid-tier monster (like a Carnosaur let’s say)
    - 2 Spear Riders
    - 3 Chameleons
    - Heavens caster

    with such an army you march toward me at 31 speed (Saurus speed), have almost nothing to contest missiles or harass me and deposition me (only 3 Chams), you don’t win frontline fast (due to lowish MA of Saurus)... tl;dr: not a good and balanced army.

    No wonder people get abused with such an army when they match vs a decent player.

    LZ are a top tier faction and vulnerability to missiles isn’t a weakness for them. You can make a frontline with 46 speed, you have cheap cav at your disposal, Manticore summons and a bunch of 300g chaff units. If you pick a bad army and get rekt by AP missiles it’s on you really, I don’t see AP missiles as a particular weakness Nakai has when you consider the rest of the roster.

    If after all of this, AP missiles are still a problem, here a secret tip for improved LZ gameplay: RoR Saurus Spears.
  • M3HowM3How Registered Users Posts: 84
    My reply was not really that precise. I wanted to point out that most people will bring ap on anything (if possible) most of the time. So Nakais armor is not "that" beneficial as we think. It was specyfically to contradict quoted reply. Lizards do have healing options which could be beneficial, but only option for healing while picking Nakai is revification basti so one may argue that it's not beneficial that much as rev crystal is a bit gawky/slow/also easy to pick on. Also Nakai is slower that Kroq-Gar/Old blood which make it harder to dodge or chose engagement [counting runing away from one that is not really beneficial/healthy for him]

    @Green0 u're right that people bring rather rounded builds most of the time (as lizards do have some units that will be hurt/routed by even low ap dmg, like sallies, terradons, skinks, etc. also dmg will add up finnaly as we all know), but as clumsily mentioned earlier most of the time u will pick ap against lizards as most of their units do have high armor.

    Also getting back to ror saurus spears, they are great for defending bigger/slower things, as nakai is suppose to cycle charge too (in my opinion he's more suited to fight infantry instead of big things, as he do have nice atackin animation which start before the unit that he's attacking and 2nd thing is that he's quite weak against targets that are being taken against lizards [like Kholek, Dragons, Sphinxes, etc.]). My conclusion for that is: Nakai won't benefit much from ror spears.

    I have no recip/ideas how to fix him or make him more viable. Just agree that currently it's hard to "think up strategy which would be cost effective and effective" at least for me.

    My fault for not being as precise as i should be. Cheers.
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  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,543
    M3How said:

    My reply was not really that precise. I wanted to point out that most people will bring ap on anything (if possible) most of the time.

    I disagree with this statement. You pay for AP, as such if you bring AP vs a mostly unarmored army, you play from behind.

    For example, AP missiles vs 800g Saurus are not great because they aren't armored technically and have shields and 7500 HP. Far from the ideal target.

    Red Crested Skinks are also good vs AP missile armies as are Terradons.
  • M3HowM3How Registered Users Posts: 84
    That's why i said "most of the time" not all of the time. LM are known for multipurposes dinos so most people do expect them and prepare accordingly. The point of it is to counter big stuff which are most dangerous factor (also here "most of the time" not "all of the time"). Saurus warriors are nice infantry unit but as they are slow they're not wining factor most of the time, or at least they're not picked for wining engagement but to hold other units.

    I do not think that people are gonna bring ap ranged specyficaly for saurus as it's not really the greatest threat (not saying that they can't do well or decide about win/lose situation).

    I may take your replies kind of like attacks as you tend to go from one extreme to the other really fast. You're bringing really specyfic arguments which are hard to look at from most "universal perspective".

    Let's take beastmen for example: u'd rather take centigors with axes than ungor riders to zone/kill big targets (that's oversimplification as there are more factors than just being good vs big stuff, also it's not that u can't bring both units).
    Let's look at greenskins now: u'd rather take orc arrer boys than goblins as they do have more ap (it's oversimplification here too, as boys can def themselves for charing skinks skirmishers that can easier rout gobbos than orc arrers), the thing is that some people may think up different strategy that will involve more of one type unit just to take your attention and other one to do dmg or just go full cheap and go for stacking up dmg [not saying that it'll work tho], also even if enemy will focus unit which u specyfically took to do dmg is being attacked other may attack main target and do dmg or peel from your main dmg source [also here it's not said that they'll be as effective but regardles they'll do something].

    The main point still stands in my opinion. Nakai seem underpowered and "I think" that he could be buffed to be more viable/fun/cost effective.

    You're free to disagree with me, as mentioned it's mostly based on my experience/thinking.
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  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,361
    Green0 said:


    120 armor is a huge deal because it makes you immune to a lot of units in this game. Of course not all.

    Like pleaseeeee,
    Ungrim 120 armor, nah not big deal lol
    Gotrek 0 armor. QQ
    Green0 said:


    For example, AP missiles vs 800g Saurus are not great because they aren't armored technically and have shields and 7500 HP. Far from the ideal target.

    Saurus r mid heavy inf, 60 itself is quite armoured already. Not extremely armoured of that of 90-120s but sufficient enough to warrant SERIOUS ap by by pass that. Ure talking about near half non ap being mitigated, thats serious dmg being discounted.

    No one will EVER bring $500 glades when uve $650 starfire, go see for urself what that $150 do to a saurus
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