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Why Eltharion is more interesting than Imrik and will likely be the next HE DLC Lord

SIRUNKLYDUNKSIRUNKLYDUNK Registered Users Posts: 150
I see a lot of these posts saying that Imrik should be picked over Eltharion due to, essentially, his connection with dragons. I'm here to argue that from a gameplay and story standpoint, Eltharion should be the next Lord for the High Elves. Let's take a look at Imrik for a sec. What does he bring to the table? Well he'd likely bring bonuses to Dragons and Dragons princes, and bring his own special Dragon mount to the game. I feel this would make him a great candidate for FLC, but not a DLC lord. I feel like he wouldn't bring anything interesting aside from a stronger prince on a Star Dragon with some more special abilities and giving buffs to endgame units that are already very powerful. Not only that but there is a 9/10 chance that the next lord pack with the High Elves will pit them against the Greenskins, and Eltharion fits that rivalry way better than Imrik. I hear that he would have a Dragon Awakening mechanic that would fit his lore, but what would that mechanic be exactly? Would it just make Dragons cheaper? Make them easier to recruit? Give more buffs on top of what he already gives them? Doesn't sound too interesting to me. And a lot of people complain about Eltharion's lore, but Imrik has even less to work with. His lore is pretty much just "He has a special dragon as a best buddy and flies around the world." Is that really more interesting than the Grimm.

From a lore and gameplay perspective Eltharion just offers more to the table. First off, he fits a Greenskin rivalry much more, given his relationship with Grom the Paunch. Having Grom but not Eltharion in the next DLC would be like having a Batman tv or movie series without the Joker. There would be a clear part of the character missing. Eltharion also brings a new mount in griffons, and has a more unique play style as a hybrid caster/fighter lord. I hear some Imrik fans say that his relationship with Grom is all he's got, but this is far from the truth. He was the first Elven prince to successfully attack Naggarond, broke several Greenskin strongholds after Grom disappeared, and plays a large role in repairing Waystones. In fact these waystones could play a large part in his campaign, where he's traveling around the world to protect or repair them. He could have special missions to protect waystones which would result in a battle against a Greenskin hoard, and if he wins the stone is saved and grants money and buffs. He could also have the ability to build certain waystones in new provinces, which would grant buffs to magic, replenishment and supply buffs to certain units depending on the type of waystone (I know there really aren't types of waystones, but it could be a cool way to encourage different unit builds.) One idea I had way a Waystone map that shows where certain stones are, and capturing them would grant buffs but you would need to fight a large battle before securing the stone. There is so much you can do with a Waystone mechanic for Eltharion.

All in all, I just think Elthation offers more than Imrik as a DLC lord and will be the most likely option.
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Comments

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 17,682
    edited December 2019
    I agree.

    He has a literal rivalry with Grom. It's the best pairing since Skarksnik vs Belegar.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • Bonutz619Bonutz619 Registered Users Posts: 1,449
    Lol waiting for @Maedrethnir to show up
  • Black_PhillipBlack_Phillip Registered Users Posts: 476
    But they made a Joker movie without the Batman. Checkmate.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,021
    Because someone's probably going to say it at some point:

    The waystone argument probably applies to Imrik as well. Possibly even more so, in fact - Eltharion defended and restored the waystones in Yvresse, but Imrik has been involved in at least one expedition to preserve a waystone outside of Ulthuan.

    It pretty much comes down to the rivalry. Eltharion is also a possible suitable candidate for a 'choose your allies' type mechanic, wherein the units you get bonuses with are decided by choices made within the campaign rather than being decided by your starting Lord.

    Personally, I think Eltharion as the DLC and Imrik as FLC would be a perfectly suitable resolution. Maedrethnir dreams big, but I think it's perfectly possible for Imrik to be suitably represented as FLC - especially since of the two he's probably more closely bound to the vortex race, while Eltharion has more potential to go off on a tangent and have his own story.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 13,596
    I agree with the OP.

    But I also would rather FLC Aislinn than Imrik too. Gimmie a boat recruiting mechanic and off to murder Lokhir! Sea Helm lords with, heh, Dragonships (the only dragon I'd like to see added in this DLC).

    I think Imrik is better suited to Game Three when they have more leeway to avoid the armybook and make character changes.
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  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,021
    Canuovea said:

    I agree with the OP.

    But I also would rather FLC Aislinn than Imrik too. Gimmie a boat recruiting mechanic and off to murder Lokhir! Sea Helm lords with, heh, Dragonships (the only dragon I'd like to see added in this DLC).

    I think Imrik is better suited to Game Three when they have more leeway to avoid the armybook and make character changes.

    Personally, I'd be concerned about Aislinn being FLC - it'd be likely to become another situation like Alith Anar and Tiktaq'to where units associated with the FLC lord are locked behind DLC.

    I've generally considered that Aislinn might be the character who has the best link with units that could be coming with the DLC (Skycutters, and IMO if CA was to incorporate Merwyrms, the best way to do so would be as an Aislinn exclusive). Given that we're almost certainly looking at a HE v GS lord pack, though, I just don't think that's going to happen.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 13,596
    Draxynnic said:

    Canuovea said:

    I agree with the OP.

    But I also would rather FLC Aislinn than Imrik too. Gimmie a boat recruiting mechanic and off to murder Lokhir! Sea Helm lords with, heh, Dragonships (the only dragon I'd like to see added in this DLC).

    I think Imrik is better suited to Game Three when they have more leeway to avoid the armybook and make character changes.

    Personally, I'd be concerned about Aislinn being FLC - it'd be likely to become another situation like Alith Anar and Tiktaq'to where units associated with the FLC lord are locked behind DLC.

    I've generally considered that Aislinn might be the character who has the best link with units that could be coming with the DLC (Skycutters, and IMO if CA was to incorporate Merwyrms, the best way to do so would be as an Aislinn exclusive). Given that we're almost certainly looking at a HE v GS lord pack, though, I just don't think that's going to happen.
    Oh that is a fair point.

    But, being completely honest and selfish, it wouldn't bother me because I'm 100% buying another HE DLC as soon as its announced.
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  • summertimelovinsummertimelovin Registered Users Posts: 234
    Canuovea said:

    I agree with the OP.

    But I also would rather FLC Aislinn than Imrik too. Gimmie a boat recruiting mechanic and off to murder Lokhir! Sea Helm lords with, heh, Dragonships (the only dragon I'd like to see added in this DLC).

    I think Imrik is better suited to Game Three when they have more leeway to avoid the armybook and make character changes.

    The inclusion of Eltharion and Aislinn is what I'm hoping for as well. Don't really want more dragons.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,021

    Canuovea said:

    I agree with the OP.

    But I also would rather FLC Aislinn than Imrik too. Gimmie a boat recruiting mechanic and off to murder Lokhir! Sea Helm lords with, heh, Dragonships (the only dragon I'd like to see added in this DLC).

    I think Imrik is better suited to Game Three when they have more leeway to avoid the armybook and make character changes.

    The inclusion of Eltharion and Aislinn is what I'm hoping for as well. Don't really want more dragons.
    Honestly, this is an attitude that comes off to me as being a bit selfish.

    The relationship with dragons is an important part of the High Elf character and history, and to some people, that's a significant part of what drew them to the race. The line of Caledor, furthermore, is the second most important bloodline in Elven history - third if you count Aenarion's bloodline and the Everqueens as being separate, but they've been mingled since Aenarion married Astarielle.

    I understand that not everybody likes that aspect, but currently there are four Legendary Lords - five if we include Eltharion - that reflect other aspects of the High Elves and precisely zero that reflect this aspect. Seriously, let the people for whom this is an important part of the High Elf character have one.

    Doesn't need to come with Emperor Dragons or whatever certain people try to lump in with it. Caledorian units are in-game, apart from the Dragon Mage, which could be done as FLC in much the same way as the Empire's Amber Wizard. FLC will do the job.
  • summertimelovinsummertimelovin Registered Users Posts: 234
    @Draxynnic

    That did sound selfish but I'm not saying Imrik shouldn't be included in the game. I just feel like a lot of the missing units for HE can come with Eltharion.

    Imrik and what he brings could be better suited for a lord pack in game 3 where the HE don't have much representation. Something like the elves mustering the mightiest of their forces to bring the fight to Chaos.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,021
    edited December 2019

    @Draxynnic

    That did sound selfish but I'm not saying Imrik shouldn't be included in the game. I just feel like a lot of the missing units for HE can come with Eltharion.

    Imrik and what he brings could be better suited for a lord pack in game 3 where the HE don't have much representation. Something like the elves mustering the mightiest of their forces to bring the fight to Chaos.

    Fair enough. You'll note that I highlighted a part of the post for a reason. It's a sentiment that gets expressed a lot, and while it may have been unfair to pick on you for it, it was the sentiment in general that I wanted to address.

    I am inclined to think that Imrik fits better in the Vortex campaign, since it was his many-greats-grandfather who made it in the first place. Of the two, I'd be inclined to think that Aislinn makes for a better candidate for a game 3 lord pack - naval expeditions being pretty much his thing, and he can bring merwyrms and the like with him. Mind you, that still brings up the problem of some units that should be associated with him being locked behind other DLC if Skycutters come this time around (as I think they probably should).
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 13,596
    Problem with Aislinn in game three is that there isn't actually a lot of water. Imrik's primary mode of transportation flies.
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  • BardicInquisitionBardicInquisition Registered Users Posts: 1,102
    Canuovea said:

    Problem with Aislinn in game three is that there isn't actually a lot of water. Imrik's primary mode of transportation flies.

    Because the widest held belief around here is that it's going to be mostly Dark Lands, Mountains of Mourn, Eastern Steppes and Northern Chaos Wastes right? When the map moves further south and east, there will be.
  • KelefaneKelefane Registered Users Posts: 1,650
    Which is exactly why Imrik will be the LL.

  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 3,459
    After this last update I sort of doubt the next FLC Lord will be a High Elf. My money is on a Wood Elf or Beastmen character.
  • cretchboccretchboc Registered Users Posts: 44
    How bout a \
    (__
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,021
    Canuovea said:

    Problem with Aislinn in game three is that there isn't actually a lot of water. Imrik's primary mode of transportation flies.

    Depends on exactly how the map is laid out, really. The important thing, really, would be Aislinn having a coast to start from. I don't see it as guaranteed that he'd get a "Dragonship mechanic" like people have said, so just having a coastline to start his incursion from would be sufficient. Aislinn was also known for hitting Norsca on a regular basis, so if the map extends that far west, he could start off raiding the Norscan coast somewhere.

    Now, Imrik has a habit of going on expeditions as well, but in the end he has the familial relationship with Caledor Dragontamer, and the precedent of being someone that Caledor Dragontamer can contact in need from the End Times. He should have an opportunity to play a role in stabilising the Vortex.

    There's also the aspect that if six LLs was to be the final number for the High Elves, I think Imrik is a more established character than Aislinn. As much as his detractors like to make much of him not being in the 8th (or 7th) edition army books, he was in the 5th and 6th edition army books (alone with Tyrion and Teclis in the latter) and did have 8th edition rules. Aislinn... arguably has 6th edition rules, but it's ambiguous and doesn't say anything about his magic items, mounts, equipment, and so on.
  • SaurianDruidSaurianDruid Registered Users Posts: 1,003
    All this is well and good, but what about dragons?
  • fireatwill4fireatwill4 Registered Users Posts: 205
    I'm not really sold in this whole waystone mechanic, how would they work? Such as the geomantic web? Or would they be special landmarks that offer bonuses? That doesn't sound too engaging of a mechanic. I don't see the potential for an engaging mechanic when that mechanic is centered around a static object in the map thus having its potential limited by it. Yrellian could bring shipbuilding same as it was done VC, so could Aislinn, which while short of naval battles is a good compromise, maybe with dragon ships working such as black arks in concept (as upgradeable units). Imrik on the other hand could bring a combination of hunts, puzzles and quests related to awakening and buffing of dragons as well as bringing dragon mages to the table, not to mention the diplomatic mechanics that could be implemented to represent Caledor's tenuos relationships with all other elven kingdoms, such as having chains of events in which a compromise between pride and practicality have to be struck to maintain good relationships with all other kingdoms with their corresponding buffs and penalties, this alone could be turned into its own mechanic easily, for example being on bad terms with Charce could increase the cost of white lions on top of diplomatic maluses but acquiescing to their demands could mean PO and stat maluses for your armies much like how shadowy dealings work so as Imrik you would have to tip-toe the line between pride and practicality. Not to demean Eltharion but on his own he doesn't sound all too interesting to be honest, outside of being tied to Grom by their rivalry he only has gryphons and waystones.
  • NemoxNemox Registered Users Posts: 2,708
    I agree with Draxynic. It's such a shame to see the High Elves lack a dragon-focused Lord. Almost as bad as them not having Archmages... :(.

    Eltharion for DLC and Imrik as FLC.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,021

    Yrellian could bring shipbuilding same as it was done VC, so could Aislinn, which while short of naval battles is a good compromise, maybe with dragon ships working such as black arks in concept (as upgradeable units).

    Personally, I'm sceptical about the idea of dragonships being given mechanics like Black Arks.

    Dragonships are very formidable conventional warships, but they're still conventional warships, as opposed to the Black Arks which are literally floating fortresses with the potential to carry their own training facilities, armories, beast pens, and so on to support armies in the field. Dragonships... don't really have all that. They're just big warships.

    And unlike the vampirate ships, the High Elves aren't going to be getting themselves reinforcements by dredging them up from the depths. Well. Maybe Aislinn could get Merwyrms that way.

    Personally, I'm inclined towards reflecting Asur naval strength by other means. The Maritime Empire research, for instance, lets you see what is going on across the water regions of the map, which allows you to respond to anything that comes at you. Tyrion has his upgrade which allows for faster global recruitment, and that can allow for a distinct "once you form a beachhead, you can land more forces quickly" feel without needing to have an actual ship on the map. I could see a naval-themed Asur LL having something like halved global recruitment times for coastal settlements to reflect that instead of their reserved being on Black Arks, they're back in the homeland but there are the naval assets to allow them to be shipped to any coastal hot spot quickly.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,265
    edited December 2019

    His lore is pretty much just "He has a special dragon as a best buddy and flies around the world." Is that really more interesting than the Grimm.

    No, it isn't. I suggest to read novels before committing to statements.

    Having Grom but not Eltharion in the next DLC would be like having a Batman tv or movie series without the Joker.

    Arguably one of the best DC movies is about Joker alone.

    Eltharion also brings a new mount in griffons, and has a more unique play style as a hybrid caster/fighter lord.

    Imrik could be anti air and anti large LL.

    He was the first Elven prince to successfully attack Naggarond, broke several Greenskin strongholds after Grom disappeared, and plays a large role in repairing Waystones.

    Nobody denies the first two events. That being said those actions of his were imbecilic and wasteful. Also Eltharion does not play a large role in reparairing the waystones. He asked Belannaer to do it because he couldn't do it himself. Also what Draxxy-chan said is true.

    As for the potential Imrik and Caledor mechanics.

    The Dragonrealm UI:
    1. Vaul's Anvil - Forge your own gear the way you want. Unlock upgrades for your units. Quest: find Hotek. Reward: powerful item paid with blind smith's life. FLC: Lore of Metal mage represented by Priest of Vaul
    2. Shrine of Addaioth - Pay tribute and the Bringer of Wrath and Fire shall spell doom for your enemies, on both campaign and battle map: earthquakes and raging volcanoes. Quest: investigate rumours about fires plaguing villages. Reward: named and little bit crazy Dragon Mage. Put this pyromaniac to good use.
    3. Dragon Cavern - Commune with the dragons, gain their respect and you might very well taste a sliver of their hoard. Obtain named dragons. Quest: reach high reputation with the dragons. Reward: dragons tell you where you can find the most powerful among them. Quest: find three Emperor Dragons and persuade them to join you. Reward: three named Legendary Hero dragons with their own unique personalities: Doomfire Dragon, Ice Dragon and Great Storm Dragon. FLC: Dragon Mages

    Martial Glory:
    Caledor does not play politics. Instead of influence Imrik's faction has glory. You gain it by winning battles, gaining chevrons and defeating factions. Elves from the other kingdoms flock to your banner. Spend glory on kingdom themed reinforcements and lords/heroes.

    The Dragontamer:
    Imrik campaign's main objective is to assist Caledor Dragontamer in reinforcing the Vortex. Loosely based on Sons of Ellyrion plot, you travel around and seek worthy candidates to join the Dragontamer in the Great Vortex. Asur, Asrai or Druchii, it doesn't matter. Rich, mythic story about the Elves and their struggles in the world on the verge of destruction.


    That's why Imrik should be DLC.






    Post edited by Maedrethnir on
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
    ... .... .... --··-- -. --- - . .- .-. ... ·-·-·- --- -. .-.. -.-- -.. .-. . .- -- ... -. --- .-- ·-·-·-

  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,123
    The High Elf faction mechanic, influence, is garbage. It’s boring as **** and barely relevant from a lore point (DE are much more infamous for their abilities to manipulate other powers exhibit A. War of the Beard)

    The addition of Imrik could allow for the inclusion of a Dragon awakening mechanic much more in line with their background and history. Eltharion is awesome, don’t get me wrong, but Imrik would be a great reason to add a meaningful and iconic element to the race.
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,978
    edited December 2019
    So I agree that Eltharion's LORE is a bit more fleshed out. But I don't think he's the better GAMEPLAY choice.

    Imrik buffing dragons, potentially bringing new Rites or Quest Battles to awaken/protect unique dragons offers A TON of potential gameplay variety. I envision a Pieces of 8/Books of Nagash type 'dragon-collection' system sort of blended with Norscan monster-hunt type question battles.

    And I'm just spit-balling here. I think there are a wide variety of options they could go with.

    Imo, an adequate comparison is Gor-Rok vs Nakai. Nakai was definitely the superior lord choice for the DLC. I'm NOT saying that Nakai's horde mechanics were implemented perfectly. Those need some additional polish. What I'm saying his, ability to buff a thematic army and offer a diverse new gameplay style to the Lizardmen brought more replay value than Gor-Rok.

    Sure, Gor-Rok had more lore. But Gameplay wise, it didn't translate into much unique or special.

    I feel the same way about Eltharion. He has no clearly definitive or thematic units or gameplay principles. I mean...sure, they could just shoe-in some random units with Eltharion like they did giving Eshin weapon-team units with this most recent DLC...thematic armies be damned.

    I'm also sure they COULD find some campaign angles to work in. But if I had to guess, they'll likely just have him start on Ulthuaan to fight off a Greenskin invasion. Alith Anar has already taken the 'invaded Naggarond' spot, and Alarielle already has the 'Wood Elf' connection spot. If they bring in Eltharion it will be for his GREENSKIN rivalry. Not one of these other things. Which is going to offer way more gameplay/start position variety for the Greenskins than it will for the High Elves. So despite maybe a new mechanic or two, his campaigns would basically feel very similar to what Tyrion and Alarielle already offer.

    Imrik on the other hand could easily be placed anywhere on the world, including the newly expanded Mortal Empires geography in theme with 'dragon awakening' quests or something else similar to that.

    TL;DR: I would like to see both added to the game. But it's definitely Imrik that offers the more DLC-worthy additions in terms of thematic army packs and diverse gameplay. Eltharion has stronger lore...but would just be another 'Lothern' style playthrough tbh.
  • BoombastekBoombastek Registered Users Posts: 2,047
    It just your opinion, Imrik > blind dude.

    And if look onto Lizardmen, why not 6 lords to HE too.
  • Pr4vdaPr4vda Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 977
    I begin to think that the HE LL will not be Imrik or Eltharion but someone else. CA likes to troll us after all.
    Team Dawis

    Dawis shall purge all their fallen Karaks, with the blood of the Greeskins and the skavens !
  • fireatwill4fireatwill4 Registered Users Posts: 205
    Draxynnic said:

    Yrellian could bring shipbuilding same as it was done VC, so could Aislinn, which while short of naval battles is a good compromise, maybe with dragon ships working such as black arks in concept (as upgradeable units).

    Personally, I'm sceptical about the idea of dragonships being given mechanics like Black Arks.

    Dragonships are very formidable conventional warships, but they're still conventional warships, as opposed to the Black Arks which are literally floating fortresses with the potential to carry their own training facilities, armories, beast pens, and so on to support armies in the field. Dragonships... don't really have all that. They're just big warships.

    And unlike the vampirate ships, the High Elves aren't going to be getting themselves reinforcements by dredging them up from the depths. Well. Maybe Aislinn could get Merwyrms that way.

    Personally, I'm inclined towards reflecting Asur naval strength by other means. The Maritime Empire research, for instance, lets you see what is going on across the water regions of the map, which allows you to respond to anything that comes at you. Tyrion has his upgrade which allows for faster global recruitment, and that can allow for a distinct "once you form a beachhead, you can land more forces quickly" feel without needing to have an actual ship on the map. I could see a naval-themed Asur LL having something like halved global recruitment times for coastal settlements to reflect that instead of their reserved being on Black Arks, they're back in the homeland but there are the naval assets to allow them to be shipped to any coastal hot spot quickly.
    I meant not as in mobile centers of recruitment but simply as units that can be upgraded, which might have a small contingent of LSG for self-defence and provide "off-map artillery support" in the form of spells or buffs to nearby units, but that would be it, it's certainly not ideal but it's feasible with what fundations we already have. LoS and halved recruitment times are tempting but I honestly think that anything outside of actual naval battles would fall short in several key areas and so far it seems that is unlikely to happen.
  • eomateomat Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,054
    edited December 2019
    My hope is for Eltharion the Grim on Stormwing and not the blind version. The Grim version is 8e and that is what CA first go to so here’s a hoping it is so.

    I actually hope that Eltharion is the only lord to have a Griffon. I’d like for him to be unique in that.
  • CanuoveaCanuovea Registered Users, Moderators Posts: 13,596
    Lets attempt to be civil, shall we?
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  • goliath55goliath55 Registered Users Posts: 649
    I think a Caledor inspired pack could give a really nice twist on the clean HE aesthetic we have now : more Imperial, lots of fire and heavier armor and sword infantry. BUT , I think CA will go for Eltharion and go for Aislinn as the FLC

    Eltharion starting off the coast of the Badlands in Vortex and in a settlement in Mortal Empires.

    Aislinn starting southern tip of Southlands in Vortex and maybe somewhere closer to the Sea of Claws in Mortal Empires.
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