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Dwarfs are the best Skaven in the game

SteelRoninSteelRonin Junior MemberChileRegistered Users Posts: 838
I mean, they reproduce fast, they are cheap.....You destroy 3 Dawi armies in one turn, and in the next one they show up with 3 more armies. What a perfect tide they are, controlling all the World Edge mountain, badlands, the new provinces in the dark lands, they can control the southland too. Endless tide....Orcs can't stand a chance, not even other skaven clans....

What a joke seeing Thorgrim pushing Deathmaster Snikch in less than 10 turns...
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  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 10,555

    I mean, they reproduce fast, they are cheap.....You destroy 3 Dawi armies in one turn, and in the next one they show up with 3 more armies. What a perfect tide they are, controlling all the World Edge mountain, badlands, the new provinces in the dark lands, they can control the southland too. Endless tide....Orcs can't stand a chance, not even other skaven clans....

    What a joke seeing Thorgrim pushing Deathmaster Snikch in less than 10 turns...

    Stunties definitely need to be nerfed. They should be the defending race while Skaven and GS should be the aggressive ones.

    The best way to do it is to remove the stupid „supply lines“ penalty for Skaven and GS. This way they could spam more armies what represents their nature.
  • LazykingLazyking Registered Users Posts: 48
    Overall the AI need constant balance, It´s either the Greens or Dwarfs that are on a rampage. I have never had the Skaven being a threat to me. Or Skarsniks goblins. In the end it´s all about the AI´s cheating with getting endless high tier units and then winning by autobattle.
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,871
    Dwarfs could use a number of campaign overhauls to feel more like Dwarfs.

    They need to be better at defending sieges. They're supposed to be near impregnable.

    They could use longer recruitment times for their units, lower replenishment and lower growth. Are they a dying race or what?
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 10,555
    Nitros14 said:

    Dwarfs could use a number of campaign overhauls to feel more like Dwarfs.

    They need to be better at defending sieges. They're supposed to be near impregnable.

    They could use longer recruitment times for their units, lower replenishment and lower growth. Are they a dying race or what?

    That would be a good way! Limited recruitment slots and longer recruitment time would be good way to nerf them. It also would fit their lore.

    Dwarfs are not able to replenish Super fast after a lost battle while GS and Skaven are so much in numbers that it simply doesn’t matter. They are a swarm race replenishing faster as cockroaches while Dwarfs are a dying race. CA should somehow represent this.

  • SultschiemSultschiem Registered Users Posts: 2,433
    Nitros14 said:

    Dwarfs could use a number of campaign overhauls to feel more like Dwarfs.

    They need to be better at defending sieges. They're supposed to be near impregnable.

    They could use longer recruitment times for their units, lower replenishment and lower growth. Are they a dying race or what?

    They are better at defending sieges. Their garissons are superior to most others as they have a great mix of skirmishers, defensive frontlines and later on also anti-large, anti-armor and artillery. The only ones stronger could be the elves, but thats because of their firepower, but they are also squishier while not having good artillery.

    Holding a walled Settlement or a City with walls is super easy, you can kill 2-3 stacks easy.
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,871
    edited December 2019

    Nitros14 said:

    Dwarfs could use a number of campaign overhauls to feel more like Dwarfs.

    They need to be better at defending sieges. They're supposed to be near impregnable.

    They could use longer recruitment times for their units, lower replenishment and lower growth. Are they a dying race or what?

    They are better at defending sieges. Their garissons are superior to most others as they have a great mix of skirmishers, defensive frontlines and later on also anti-large, anti-armor and artillery. The only ones stronger could be the elves, but thats because of their firepower, but they are also squishier while not having good artillery.

    Holding a walled Settlement or a City with walls is super easy, you can kill 2-3 stacks easy.
    They're not nearly as good as Skaven at defending sieges (warpbomb) and they have no extra turn time to be starved out.

    Their siege maps should really be unique.

    High Elf garrisons lack AP, Dark Elf garrisons are very good yeah.
  • SteelRoninSteelRonin Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 838
    And Border Princes pushing to Deff Gorge, The Empire taking K8P.....

    Current Dwarfs is how the Chaos should be, bringing 5-6 stacks per turn....like endless tide, same with Greenskins and Skavens....

    There are more Dwarfs than Chaos when end times event triggers.......really?.....really???
  • unknown_oneunknown_one Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 152
    The problem is the game has no actual population representation, all recriutement is done via money.

    That means the "dying" races like elves and dwarfs can **** out stack after stack.
  • SteelRoninSteelRonin Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 838
    With the addition of the Dark Lands, guess who is getting more money, more armies.........yeah, the Dwarfs.

    With that in mind, I hope CA does not add WH3 to Mortal Empires.....because the Dwarfs will control everything....
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,971
    Chaos Warrios are actually not all that numerous. They're just badass.

    CHAOS DAEMONS HOWEVER...........

    So revise that 5-6 stacks per turn comment til game 3 ;)
  • SteelRoninSteelRonin Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 838
    Itharus said:

    Chaos Warrios are actually not all that numerous. They're just badass.

    CHAOS DAEMONS HOWEVER...........

    So revise that 5-6 stacks per turn comment til game 3 ;)

    less numerous than Dwarfs?
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,144
    It's not money, it's not even the factions. It's mostly just the auto resolve.

    You see it all the time, some Dwarf stack, generally with mediocre troops, pops over, blows away a Greenskin stack that's half Black Orcs, loses a few troops, pops back home and rehires.

    It takes elite Skaven and Greenskin armies, to match mid tier Dwarf armies. The actual combat? Not a problem. That AR though, it's super duper hard on the poor bastards.

    Poor Greenskins have a second problem, they're always running around with attrition because they can't maintain fightiness for ****. Instead of throwing Waaaghs all over the place like they should be, they run around with 80% dead stacks in enemy territory. This results in a huge number of free victories for any faction that ends up fighting Greenskins.

    Plenty of faction matchups have this problem. Tomb King stacks of all basic troops get absolutely slaughtered by basically anything that comes across them. Bretonnian armies that are comprised of just peasantry suffer the same fate. They're almost always the weaker party in AR, and down they go.

    Fix AR for chaff units, fix the poor Waaagh! mechanic for the AI, and Dwarfs are probably already the ugly stepchild.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 2,926
    edited December 2019
    Dying race my ass.. you could say the same for WH2 elves, they reproduce even faster.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 20,662
    Orcs and Skaven are doing well in my Sniktch campaign. 30 turns in or so, but they're doing their thing.
    Malakai is the best choice for a Dwarf LP. Give us Slayer lords so we may form a Slayer host and revel in our destruction!
  • ron1404nlron1404nl Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 340
    The other problem is the income per turn, dwarfs are superior to that as well, especially compared to the Skaven. Plus the confederation issues, all the non playable dwarven factions are playing defensively and are building armies, once confederated the dwarf have another 3 stacks.
  • vintagepurplevintagepurple Registered Users Posts: 800
    It doesn’t help that their enemies like Grimgor and Queek and everyone all start with one city each while dwarfs have their flanks covered by Zhufbar in the north and the absolute powerhouse that is Karak Azul in the south.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 9,971

    Itharus said:

    Chaos Warrios are actually not all that numerous. They're just badass.

    CHAOS DAEMONS HOWEVER...........

    So revise that 5-6 stacks per turn comment til game 3 ;)

    less numerous than Dwarfs?
    Quite possibly, actually... becoming a Chaos Warrior is a grueling and highly selective process.

    Cultists and Marauders are everywhere, though.
  • SchepelSchepel Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,523
    edited December 2019
    Population is represented, but what could (should?) be introduced is the option to exhaust your manpower potential.

    On the other hand, I am having mad fun fighting the Dwarfs and the Empire (strength ranks 2 and 1, respectively) with my little rats. I am killing 4-5 stacks every turn and every time I think, this has to be it, several more appear. I had to give up on three settlements, but I am quietly building up an underempire that is going to blow up half the map in one go. It is going to be epic. :smiley:
  • azinthiosazinthios Registered Users Posts: 9
    I think that the high replenishment of units is to show that they can mobilise more of the population quicker and are better at healing
    But by that logic the skaven and greenskins should have practically instant replenishment as their an endless tide
  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,871
    azinthios said:

    I think that the high replenishment of units is to show that they can mobilise more of the population quicker and are better at healing
    But by that logic the skaven and greenskins should have practically instant replenishment as their an endless tide

    A total manpower reserve would be an interesting mechanic to add for elder races like Elves and Dwarfs (though Dark Elves are supposed to have babies at a much higher rate than High Elves IIRC?).
  • LaindeshLaindesh Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,045
    Just want to say:

    I experiences the greenskin tide as repanse. Granted i used a few mods (no racial aversion, neutral start, no AI confed cheats). Karaz a karak was sitting in their starting capital while grimgor spit out armies with control of that huge mountain range.

    They need to balance it, but just as some want to see endless stacks of skaven and greenskin. Some people want variety and do want dwarf supremacy to fight against once in a while.
    The problem lies in balancing and randomising it enough that multiple scenarios can happen.

    Stalemate, beastmen rampaging, greenskin\skaven supremacy, dwarf supremacy, tomb kings supremacy, bretonnia supremacy. I want to see it all.
  • yukishiro1yukishiro1 Member Registered Users Posts: 510
    edited December 2019
    The absolute zero effort put into balancing the campaign AI against itself is really one of the most disappointing things about CA games.

    Years ago I wrote something up specifically about GS vs Dwarfs (before Skaven were a thing), about how you could set it up to auto-correct itself if you actually cared. My proposal at the time was to really rework the whole way the two factions interact - having Dwarves have nearly impregnable strongholds in most province capitals, with large garrisons with autoresolve bonuses vs the AI that make it almost impossible for the AI Greenskins to capture the capitals. But by the same token, have greenskins able to field very large armies of marauding orcs that frequently take the minor settlements in these same provinces, before sieging the capitals and being defeated and driven back to their home bases, before the cycle repeats. Dwarves, by contrast, would be able to maintain only limited armies in the field, resulting in equilibrium where the minor settlements would be mostly controlled by GS, except right after a GS waaagh breaks on a capital siege, after which the dwarves could snap up the minor settlements until the next waagh drives them back to the capital.

    These modifiers could then all be removed once the chaos invasion happens, suddenly throwing this part of the map into the same sort of disequilibrium that the empire is.

    You could also randomly have the chance every 10X turns of a huge waagh spawning to target a specific dwarven capital say 10 turns later, with a message going out to the player in case they want to intervene; if they don't, the capital would have a ~50%ish chance of falling as the auto-resolve would be set up in such a way that for that specific waaagh and capital, the odds are even instead of stacked.

    It would be harder to balance that with skaven thrown in, but still definitely possible. Basically all you really need is some scripting to make it so dwarves can't stomp GS/skaven but GS/skaven can't kick the dwarves out of their major strongholds. Then you just balance GS/skaven against one another by giving autoresolve bonuses that make it difficult for either to wipe out the other from thei starting capitals.
  • WyvaxWyvax Registered Users Posts: 2,821
    Nitros14 said:

    Nitros14 said:

    Dwarfs could use a number of campaign overhauls to feel more like Dwarfs.

    They need to be better at defending sieges. They're supposed to be near impregnable.

    They could use longer recruitment times for their units, lower replenishment and lower growth. Are they a dying race or what?

    They are better at defending sieges. Their garissons are superior to most others as they have a great mix of skirmishers, defensive frontlines and later on also anti-large, anti-armor and artillery. The only ones stronger could be the elves, but thats because of their firepower, but they are also squishier while not having good artillery.

    Holding a walled Settlement or a City with walls is super easy, you can kill 2-3 stacks easy.
    They're not nearly as good as Skaven at defending sieges (warpbomb) and they have no extra turn time to be starved out.

    Their siege maps should really be unique.

    High Elf garrisons lack AP, Dark Elf garrisons are very good yeah.
    Remember the dwarf reveal trailer? the one with cannon batteries mounted on their walls? That's what they need.
    Tomes read: The Great Betrayal, Master of Dragons, Curse of the Phoenix Crown, Trollslayer, Skavenslayer, Daemonslayer, Dragonslayer, Beastslayer, Vampireslayer, Malekith, The Bloody Handed, Shadow King
    It's T. rex, not T-Rex, you filthy casuals.
    "Draconic murder ferret attack dog." - Ben1990 describing Shard Dragons.
  • sieahsieah Registered Users Posts: 967
    I completely agree i mean dont Dwarf women have beards? How do they even make their males want to reproduce at this 10x stacks per turn rate?
  • TheFatTheFat Registered Users Posts: 28
    Agreed about a general manpower mechanic. The campaign map desperately needs some extra depth for all factions. This is one thing that Paradox does well, with policies and meaningful internal politics, etc. This is what TW games generally need in order to deepen them - they haven't made many meaningful steps outside their established model in a long time.

    I like the idea of dwarfs having great defence but fairly limited offensive abilities. At the moment non-order factions are totally unable to cause any real dent in the Empire/Dawi (including the chaos invasion as many have already mentioned).
  • Lin_HuichiLin_Huichi Registered Users Posts: 445
    Dwarfs lost in my Chaos campaign, the Greenskins won because I distracted the Empire enough. Even the Vampires went as far as Nuln, but then I went back up to Norsca to quest battle and raise new hordes, and as soon as I left the Wood elves and Khemri blitz the GS and the Vampires melted to the Empire and the few remaining Dwarf holds.

    Lothern smashed Naggarond before turn 100, invaded Norsca and took the razed Bretonnia. They have 100 settlements now.

    Even though I have 11 hordes it will be work, but luckily Dwarfs are at war with Lothern and Talsyn went to war with Khemri.
  • JadawinKhanidiJadawinKhanidi Registered Users Posts: 1,177
    Dying race my ass, I don't care about such nonsense. You can't have "dying races" in a game where units are lost all the time and soldiers die by the tens of thousands. What exactly are people demanding? That Dwarfs are unable to make new units when they lose an army? That their recruitment takes 20x as long as for Greenskins?

    The problem with Dwarfs is that they are so strong in autoresolve. There is no reason for that. Dwarfs are a weak faction and very easy to beat. Especially when I played the Greenskins, kicking stunty butts was the easiest part of the campaign.
  • sieahsieah Registered Users Posts: 967
    ^ Dwarfs should be passive, they only should try to reclaim lost holds and lose horribly when trying to.
  • ReeksReeks Registered Users Posts: 3,393
    Only randomizing the AI bonuses will sort out the "Tide issue".....There have been tides since the beginning and complains about it for just as long.....Justifiably so.
  • SteelRoninSteelRonin Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 838
    The ability to confederate other factions with ease is what make the Dwarfs a powerful tide. 4 LLs, CLan Angrund ethereal agents that you can't kill with other agents, only in battle and .......they are almost impossible to kill in battle unless they are the only ones in remaining.

    I am happy that I am defeating them in my Mors Campaign, fighting the Empire, Bretonnia and Dwarfs at the same time in all the old world map. Every turn I have 3-4 battles in all fronts.......The Empire is also a Tide, bringing 4-5 stacks per turn, and they are fighting Chaos, Norsca and me.......
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