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Bretonnian characters are overbuffed

Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 5,578
edited December 2019 in Balancing Discussions
I understand the intention of buffing Bretonnia because allegedly it's a weak faction, but at this point give them AP archers rather and remove all the monstrosities that they've been given in the past few patches.

Bretonnia already has a regenerating, 20% physical resist. lord, with a Lion's Shield which is anti Final Transmutation, anti Spirit Leech, anti Howling Warpgale + WLC/Jezzail combos... anti everything that SHOULD defeat a lord that is too strong in melee. And said lord also carries one of the strongest debuffs in the game.

I've just had an opponent dive Louen + Paladin + Felix into the middle of Necropolis Knights Halberds, 2 Tomb Guard Halberds, 3 Carrion, Khalida on Necroserpent and grind it out with... you guessed it, the help of a further 15% from Guardian of a Legendary Paladin (!), a 44% Ward Save and regen from Felix (again, another toxic blob enabler) and the newly overbuffed Companions of Quenelles.

Overall it seems to me that ANY single entity in this game that dives into the middle of a dedicated AL unit, such as Necropolis Knights, Fireborn, Demigryphs, you name it, should lose a 1v1 because that's what monsters are supposed to do, be weak when isolated.

The fact that Bretonnia can pull off such a strong gooning force which can defeat 2 Necropolis Knights Halberds, Khalida and 2 Tomb Guard Halberds is simply ridiculous. Bretonnia might be the strongest gooning faction in the game again.

I was hoping we had learned from our sins of TW1, but it looks like we're back at it again: regenerating lord, overbuffed flyers, abundance of healing and physical resistance stacking and AP.


I am not even sure what needs nerfing in the Bretonnian roster, I would say all at this point because I can give so many toxic combos it's not even funny at this point.

For example:

Louen with standard kit
Legendary Paladin (with buffed BvL !)
Life Damsel (or go without caster and pick Felix you don't need magic anyway tbh Felix is more convenient than any Regrowth/Harmonic Convergence you'll cast)
Questing RoR/Hippogryph Knights

Or

Life Prophetess
Hippo Knights
Henri with Guardian
Generic Paladins with Guardian
Questing RoR

The amount of gooning, resistance stacking such an AIRFORCE (that can pick its engagements!) can pull off etc. is just stupid. I am not exactly sure why one would keep buffing Bretonnia either since while I can agree that Bret had bad matchups, they also had monster performers like 700g Errant or 950g KotR, or Grails, or Peasant Bowmen, or Louen. The roster, even 3-4 patches ago, was full of top-tier units, simply it had also roster gaps. Now those gaps are being closed, but the top performers are not getting nerfed. We buffed the bad parts of the roster but didn't nerf those parts that were by far the best compared to other factions.

This is not to mention for example Gotrek, I have to wonder if you're a faction like say Skaven or Tomb Kings, what exactly will you bring to grind down Gotrek since both factions have weak elite infantry and their melee characters all lose in a duel to Gotrek which btw can be heal capped and can't even be LD routed which would be the traditional approach to defeat characters with strong statline such as Sigvald or Tyrion or Archaon.
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Comments

  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,614
    edited December 2019
    Pathetic

    Next time post something thats actually relevant to balancing other than rants. Just another boring af, bret cant have lord with heals while happily spamming dragons with regrowth. 60 ld cav, monster performer HAHAHAHAHAAH Pure nonsense rants with absolutely 0 data to back such whinging. Serious waste of communitys time reading

    Kotr are the worst rubbish cav of its class. The absolute worst of cold one knights, big uns, cold riders, all of which r ap anti large. Kotr obviously the weakest anti large ever cav in game.
    Green0 said:

    which can defeat 2 Necropolis Knights Halberds, Khalida and 2 Tomb Guard Halberds is simply ridiculous.

    Lulz, CA already said it loud and clear necro knights hal r hugely overpriced and underperforming, but thanks so much for clarfying that again.
    Green0 said:

    The amount of gooning, resistance stacking such an AIRFORCE (that can pick its engagements!) can pull off etc. is just stupid.

    Completely agree, not to mention with the smallest air unit hitbox in game, even smaller than single model pegasus, allariel need some serious significant nerfs. Resistance stacking, op heals, star heals at regrowth lv per unit x 3. One charge alone equates to 39 mana or so, is just stupid.

    And got-rekt, such a rubbish waste of a hero slot. How can a 0 armor hero, the worst of the worst as no hero in game even have 0 armor, r priced at such an outrageous price, need serious buff this guy
    Post edited by yst on
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  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,409
    Louen is like 2800 in his standard, maxed out configuration. Its no surprise he's a badass. The combo you listed is like6k+ gold or something. The only thing i agree is busted is the new qk ror. Theyre overtuned vs factions that brets are qlready decent against(empire, vampires etc) and do duck all vs the big armoree monsters on halberss the faction struggles against. It was a grossly misjudged buff on aunit that was underpriced to begin with.
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  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,359
    You know a lot of faction can do the same

    Lzm resistance stacking monsters star chamber and legion of c
    He allarile on eagle star dragon + frost heart phoenix
    Empire demi horde. Boris on griffon+ amber on griffon with manticore summon
    DE malekith soul stealer+ beastmaster guardian and Maybe even black dragon
    Blood dragon lord on dragon with terrorgheist and another caster on peg mount


    About tk dealing with gotrek. You got chariots, archers, high mobile sem. You can snipe felix first or terror route him, or use high mass unit to push him away from gotrek
    Use some creativity . Ppl in qb (which you mocked before) can deal with it so can you

    And oh wow, tk having some weakness. Good for it. Tk is one of those factions that are bordering in having no weakness like emp lzm and skv


    For skv, you can snipe him. Doomwheel it, or plague furnace stun it. Even some slingers will do steady dmg. That resistance buff is only 22 second per 2 min and cost like 200 gold

    Man if bret is that op i should see it win some tournament games. But everytime it is picked it (which is rare too)loses more than often


    Anyways this reminds me of your
    bret bowmen beat HE bowmen thread

    Im not going to reply anymore because you never listen anyways

    But im here for some good laughs
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 5,578
    edited December 2019
    Wyvern2 said:

    Louen is like 2800 in his standard, maxed out configuration. Its no surprise he's a badass. The combo you listed is like6k+ gold or something. The only thing i agree is busted is the new qk ror. Theyre overtuned vs factions that brets are qlready decent against(empire, vampires etc) and do duck all vs the big armoree monsters on halberss the faction struggles against. It was a grossly misjudged buff on aunit that was underpriced to begin with.

    Paladins also don't need to give mutual guardian, a faction with something like Louen which is Star Dragon/Karl Franz-tier probably doesn't need something like Felix not to mention Gotrek either.

    Louen with Sword and regen is also only 2200g idk where you get 2800 from.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 5,578

    You know a lot of faction can do the same

    Lzm resistance stacking monsters star chamber and legion of c
    He allarile on eagle star dragon + frost heart phoenix
    Empire demi horde. Boris on griffon+ amber on griffon with manticore summon
    DE malekith soul stealer+ beastmaster guardian and Maybe even black dragon
    Blood dragon lord on dragon with terrorgheist and another caster on peg mount


    About tk dealing with gotrek. You got chariots, archers, high mobile sem. You can snipe felix first or terror route him, or use high mass unit to push him away from gotrek
    Use some creativity . Ppl in qb (which you mocked before) can deal with it so can you

    And oh wow, tk having some weakness. Good for it. Tk is one of those factions that are bordering in having no weakness like emp lzm and skv


    For skv, you can snipe him. Doomwheel it, or plague furnace stun it. Even some slingers will do steady dmg. That resistance buff is only 22 second per 2 min and cost like 200 gold

    Man if bret is that op i should see it win some tournament games. But everytime it is picked it (which is rare too)loses more than often


    Anyways this reminds me of your
    bret bowmen beat HE bowmen thread

    Im not going to reply anymore because you never listen anyways

    But im here for some good laughs

    My point is exactly that the combo I mention is stronger than all that you listed... hence the request to tone it down.
  • AudacimousAudacimous Registered Users Posts: 10
    Wait... so CA buffing Bret, one of the worst faction last patch, was a bad idea?
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,614
    Green0 said:


    3+ demis shouldn't be a thing either; they're abusive vs a lot of factions, including Bretonnia
    I am becoming more and more convinced that this is by far the most broken thing in the game.

    Always complaining about how other faction works. Perhaps its time to acknowledge they r working perfectly and u just lack the skill to utilise them? may I suggest rolling with brets or empire since clearly u havent have much at with elves? Vamps and voast got whinged a lot as well? they could offer u what u want

    If all fails, go skaven, afterall they r the most witch-hunted factions. Sometimes its better than continuing with faction u just hasnt have much luck with. It will certainly benefits everyone, most certainly the forums
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  • Modern_ErasmusModern_Erasmus Registered Users Posts: 177
    Bretonnia is fine. You pay fair prices for the things you mentioned, and TK specifically is a pretty bad matchup for Bret anyway.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 5,578

    Bretonnia is fine. You pay fair prices for the things you mentioned, and TK specifically is a pretty bad matchup for Bret anyway.

    I am not convinced this is the case, do you have any evidence to support this statement? I think it's an even matchup or maybe even Bret advantage.

  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 482
    The first combo you list is impossible, because you can only Bring Henri in Repanse's faction, not with Louen at the same time.

    The second combo you list is also impossible, because Henri + caster + paladins equals 4+ characters and you can only bring 3.

    Do you even play Bretonnia?
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 120
    It's been consensus for a long time that Bretonnia is one of the weaker factions and that is still clearly the case, arguing for them to be nerfed because of a single loss is bad form. Khalida and Tomb Guard are anaemic units, and Necropolis Knights with Halberds are overpriced. You should argue for a buff to those units, not a nerf to Bretonnia.

    But you are right in that Bretonnia should get armour piercing ranged. Their crossbows and longbows found in certain editions are the only units they are still missing, in addition to the optional archer spikes
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 5,578
    edited December 2019
    blindjonn said:

    It's been consensus for a long time that Bretonnia is one of the weaker factions and that is still clearly the case, arguing for them to be nerfed because of a single loss is bad form. Khalida and Tomb Guard are anaemic units, and Necropolis Knights with Halberds are overpriced. You should argue for a buff to those units, not a nerf to Bretonnia.

    But you are right in that Bretonnia should get armour piercing ranged. Their crossbows and longbows found in certain editions are the only units they are still missing, in addition to the optional archer spikes

    Nobody of the top players would argue that Bretonnia is one of the weaker factions I'm sure. This myth might have been true 10 patches ago, but not any longer.

    This consideration also doesn't stem from "one single loss" but from several games vs Bret hero squads where I was able to witness how toxic a bunch of characters can be when grouped and heal capped while some Royal Hippo Knights fly overhead.
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 8,274
    edited December 2019
    This is just a pure rant....louen+paladin+felix = no magic lol

    Questing ror is OP other than that brets could use few more buffs, not to louen but other aspects for sure.
    Post edited by Lotus_Moon on
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 8,274
    Green0 said:

    blindjonn said:

    It's been consensus for a long time that Bretonnia is one of the weaker factions and that is still clearly the case, arguing for them to be nerfed because of a single loss is bad form. Khalida and Tomb Guard are anaemic units, and Necropolis Knights with Halberds are overpriced. You should argue for a buff to those units, not a nerf to Bretonnia.

    But you are right in that Bretonnia should get armour piercing ranged. Their crossbows and longbows found in certain editions are the only units they are still missing, in addition to the optional archer spikes

    Nobody of the top players would argue that Bretonnia is one of the weaker factions I'm sure. This myth might have been true 10 patches ago, but not any longer.

    This consideration also doesn't stem from "one single loss" but from several games vs Bret hero squads where I was able to witness how toxic a bunch of characters can be when grouped and heal capped while some Royal Hippo Knights fly overhead.
    I would argue bret is one of the weakest factions actually quite opposite to your statement i think none of the top players would disagree that bret is one of the weakest factions.

    Dont get me wrong i think they are tier 2 but that doesn't mean they not one of the weakest i mean who is weaker thsn brets in your view? If you troll me with HE than i will lol hard, perhaps only chaos is close, i dont think bret or chaos are horrible or anything but they both could use buffs.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,241
    edited December 2019
    Wyvern2 said:

    Louen is like 2800 in his standard, maxed out configuration. Its no surprise he's a badass. The combo you listed is like6k+ gold or something. The only thing i agree is busted is the new qk ror. Theyre overtuned vs factions that brets are qlready decent against(empire, vampires etc) and do duck all vs the big armoree monsters on halberss the faction struggles against. It was a grossly misjudged buff on aunit that was underpriced to begin with.

    Well to be honest that BvLl on QK ror was a welcomed change for me cause it’s supposed to be something bretonnia is very strong at. Their anti large cav. Currently Demi blobs were much stronger than any other Brets could fiel don the ground.

    Maybe they deserve some +50 gold nerf but Empvs Brets is honestly not a 50vs50 MU.

    Emp has all the advantages like Demi Blob with buffs and heals and of course cannons to force Brets to fight on your terms, the only reediming factor for berts in the MU are RHK, without them this MU would be totally one sided, but it's still easier for Emp imo.

    So no i disagree that it was not a warranted buff given how tiny and unflexible Bretonnian roster is right now.

    I would be more then happy to nerf the cav a bit and give them more tactical options, which is very unlikely for now.

    Given the fact how versatile and strong Emp is right now i don't think they need to have best AP AL cav in the game. Which should be Bretonnia niche. Cav and Heroes.

    I'm not against increasing the price of qk ROR Thou. They don't have to be super OP. But they will help Brets not only aginst Emp.

    And sure i'm totally for adding shorter range version of Bretonnian bowmen with some AP.(or even a bowmen ror with AP). Then we could tune the cav more (i mean nerf the bret cav a bit more).

    @Green0 Sorry to hear that you have lost, but i think this is just angry rant after a loss and does not really reflect the reality. Bret are not bottom of the barrel faction but not top tier either. And i would love to see Palas losing guardian but getting that AP dmg and base cos increase.



  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Registered Users Posts: 750
    My money's on 'opponent forgot their mage and got lucky with panic rush'.
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 120

    And sure i'm totally for adding shorter range version of Bretonnian bowmen with some AP.(or even a bowmen ror with AP). Then we could tune the cav more (i mean nerf the bret cav a bit more).

    Bretonnia are restricted by their tabletop roster, which has always been very small (Wood Elves have a similar issue but a slightly more flexible base roster). Even Bret does get their crossbows and longbows, by then other races will have an abundance of extremely strong options. Bret cav needs to stay very strong or they will lose their competitiveness and the entertainment value in playing them.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,241
    Bretonnia could really use a freaking DLC with units or at least rors. They are currently pretty inflexible, which is the main reason they are weak as a faction.

    Some of their cav is realy OP if you test them 1v1 vs other cav etc, but since Prophet and the warlock the amount of OP stuff that can decimate cav from the rnage is getting higher each DLC, more slows more nets more easy to play rnaged options.

    Long rnage options are imo far easier to play then mirocing with your cav no matter how OP they can be 1v1 vs other unis.

    So wating for new units for Brets is very unrealistic so i would like to see at least few more rors (alongside for same amount of ror to the other 6 ror forgotten factions, BM, WE, Chaos, Norsca.

    Paladins should get finally AP or at least some armor sundering ability, Green Knight could use more buffs, as he is trash to be honest.
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 120

    So wating for new units for Brets is very unrealistic so i would like to see at least few more rors (alongside for same amount of ror to the other 6 ror forgotten factions, BM, WE, Chaos, Norsca.

    RoR's aren't a good solution because of the RoR cap. Most builds already cap out their RoR limit and the more you add, the more options you can't use. Greenskin players will know what I'm talking about, they have a great toolkit of cheap, useful RoR's that now have to be left behind.

    The solution for the "forgotten factions" will always be more units. In Bretonnia's case, crossbows, longbows and stakes brings ranged flexibility and a fascinating defensive option. Adding Henri to the main faction and giving characters more mount options improves some bad matchups. Then it's up to CA to come up with new content, as they have done in the past.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 458

    The first combo you list is impossible, because you can only Bring Henri in Repanse's faction, not with Louen at the same time.

    The second combo you list is also impossible, because Henri + caster + paladins equals 4+ characters and you can only bring 3.

    Do you even play Bretonnia?

    actually Bretonnia could bring an additional hero in TT, would be a nice perk for them :P
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,241
    blindjonn said:

    So wating for new units for Brets is very unrealistic so i would like to see at least few more rors (alongside for same amount of ror to the other 6 ror forgotten factions, BM, WE, Chaos, Norsca.

    RoR's aren't a good solution because of the RoR cap. Most builds already cap out their RoR limit and the more you add, the more options you can't use. Greenskin players will know what I'm talking about, they have a great toolkit of cheap, useful RoR's that now have to be left behind.

    The solution for the "forgotten factions" will always be more units. In Bretonnia's case, crossbows, longbows and stakes brings ranged flexibility and a fascinating defensive option. Adding Henri to the main faction and giving characters more mount options improves some bad matchups. Then it's up to CA to come up with new content, as they have done in the past.
    That is true however more ror Options would mean more flexible builds, becasue most of the brets ror are not autoinclude. Like you will never bring qk ror vs some factions like skaven or VP, i mean the could be good against VP monsters but will be probably be shot to death so it's better to go wider with cheaper units.

    More ror equals more options to chose from in different MUs despite the cap.

    archer, treb, flying units would all be great candidates for ror. SOmething like archer AP ror, or even flying AP pegasi ror. More Ap options for brets would help them immensely as the are a faction with the least AP options in the game.

    Ideally new units, but you know this is just wishful thinking, and rors are more likely to be added casue they are just recolored versions of existing unit (sometimes with additional stuff kitbashed)
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 120
    edited December 2019

    Ideally new units, but you know this is just wishful thinking, and rors are more likely to be added casue they are just recolored versions of existing unit (sometimes with additional stuff kitbashed)

    Bretonnia is very lucky in that respect - their only missing units are ones that would be insanely easy to make. Just give Men at Arms bows/crossbows and their animations and you are set. A modder could do in in ten minutes.

    RoR's have another issue - they were never really a part of Warhammer tabletop. As they multiply and become more important, the game becomes less like Warhammer. Considering that this trilogy promises to be the "ultimate Warhammer experience", it would be a shame if multiplayer devolved into a parade of original units.
  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Registered Users Posts: 259
    im for more units for Brets, more strats, but against pure buffs to old units
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,241
    edited December 2019

    im for more units for Brets, more strats, but against pure buffs to old units

    Pala really needs to be AP, i would be fine to trade guardisan for AP dmg. Something like -5 MA, removal of Guardian, +120 AP plus some cost increase. Guardian on Hneri could stay to make him more unique

    Green Knights needs at least more mass, he is useless for it's price.
    Post edited by Godefroy_de_Bouillon on
  • davinaqdavinaq Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 16
    Was about time Bret got something decent they were far from the best faction. not saying they were terrible but they struggled v SEM's and Bret cav just do not have the oomph to fight big stuff.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,614
    Ya well they r still missing squires and yeoman foot archers. Have ppl forgotten about arrow formation already?

    Brets actually do have a lot of units, just strangely not added. Theres no need to artifically create more units. I mean foot grails were always a thing both in lore and game.
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  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,359

    im for more units for Brets, more strats, but against pure buffs to old units

    I want more variety , some new archers or peasants
    Or magical cav sons of bretonnia like slaneesh harvester
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,241

    im for more units for Brets, more strats, but against pure buffs to old units

    I want more variety , some new archers or peasants
    Or magical cav sons of bretonnia like slaneesh harvester
    more variety pls yes by ze Lady yes!
  • AIMA_DracklorAIMA_Dracklor Registered Users Posts: 4,416
    Louen is strong, but he is fine. Its more felix who is just a bit ridiculous with his buffs and aoe regen.

    Louen is expensive, he is strong, but I think he is perfectly balanced.

    Lions shield is not anti-everything this is hyperbolie, its 44% resist, its not a 90% resist like vlad ability or something, plus it does nothing in melee.


  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Registered Users Posts: 259
    Archers with wedge formation and stakes, pls.

    Add commander for archers. As long as the commander is alive, they can form wedge which gives them bonuses to damage and reload but makes them slower. If the commander dies - they lose formation.

    The ability for the commander of archers to buy stakes to protect artillery and archers from charges
    Make stakes not as strong as Medieval 2 but not as weak as Attila.

    I mean they are peasants, it would be thematical to make them dependant on their commander.
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