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How to deal with cavalry?

DirtySanchezzDirtySanchezz Registered Users Posts: 2
Hello guys,

I am somewhat new to Total War.

At the moment I am playing Morathi campaign (Mortal Empires) and I am having trouble dealing with massive cavalry armies of Bretonnia. I usually use a fire sorceress, about 4 units of dreadspears, 4-6 Darkshards and some monsters.

The problem is, dreadspears on my flanks get smashed, routed and that leaves my missile units undefended.

Can someone suggest me an army comp or some strategy to keep my flanks from routing?

Thanks
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  • dreagondreagon Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,183
    You can go cheese and cornercamp. But besides that you could focus on getting more anti-large. More infantry and for monsters you can use Kharibdys.
    "The dog is a peasant and the cat is a gentleman." H.P. Lovecraft
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 9,318
    If you're facing off with Bretonnia as Morathi your game should be pretty far along. Replace Dreadspears with Black Guard for the same Bonus vs Large effect but better killing and staying power against the armoured Bretonnian Kniggets. Maybe throw in a Kharybdiss to munch on them further with extra Bonus vs Large. I think normal Cold One Knights also have Bonus vs Large. Them's the easiest solutions.

    If they do break through make sure to have you missile units spaced out so that they can support each other and not be charged two or more at the same time.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
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  • TheRealIronJazZTheRealIronJazZ Registered Users Posts: 180
    RikRiorik said:

    If you're facing off with Bretonnia as Morathi your game should be pretty far along. Replace Dreadspears with Black Guard for the same Bonus vs Large effect but better killing and staying power against the armoured Bretonnian Kniggets. Maybe throw in a Kharybdiss to munch on them further with extra Bonus vs Large. I think normal Cold One Knights also have Bonus vs Large. Them's the easiest solutions.

    If they do break through make sure to have you missile units spaced out so that they can support each other and not be charged two or more at the same time.

    Pretty much this.
    Also throw in 2× Master hero (Cold One or Dark Pegasi). They have anti large and guardian traits which is essential if you want to defend the fire sorceress imo.

    "Another year has passed in exile, another debt of blood for the usurpers in Ulthuan.
    We do not forgive, and we do not forget.
    We are the people of ice and darkness, sustained by our hate."
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 829
    edited December 2019
    It's important to remember that while a unit like the Dreadspears may "counter" cavalry, it's still just a 450 gold unit. An 1100 gold Bretonnian Cavalry like a Questing Knight is going to be able to just power through him through sheer stats

    There are two standard options here:
    1. You can upgrade the Dreadspears to a more powerful anti-large unit. (Black Guard of Naggarond)
    2. You can add more Dreadspears to protect your flanks.

    Also, targeting approaching cavalry with your darkshards is likely going to let you beat them before they can do much to your flanks. Oh and make sure your units with "Charge defense vs Large" are standing still and facing them when the cavalry hit. Otherwise it doesn't work (select them and hit backspace to immediately halt movement).
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 175
    edited December 2019
    You need shades(5-6 squads), black guard(+\-6 squads), sorceress of death for defuffs(or fire for buffs) in area(like armour debuff), also you can use cold one knights(2-3 squads), but black guard is kinda better choice, I guess. Also, you need some monsters, maybe hydra, because of regeneration. Warlocks can be usefull for debuffs, maybe one squad. Something like that. Also, witch elves can be usefull, because they have rampage attacks, but in late game they are trash, so, not sure about them, sisters of slaughter is better option, but against Bretonnia or anyone else in late game you need back guards, shades and some cold one knights with sorceress like I said before + some monsters like hydras, kharbdyss, black dragons. Lore of shadows also may be usefull, but I prefer fire or death, they are much better, I think.
    Post edited by Frank9945671 on
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 7,267

    Hello guys,

    I am somewhat new to Total War.

    At the moment I am playing Morathi campaign (Mortal Empires) and I am having trouble dealing with massive cavalry armies of Bretonnia. I usually use a fire sorceress, about 4 units of dreadspears, 4-6 Darkshards and some monsters.

    The problem is, dreadspears on my flanks get smashed, routed and that leaves my missile units undefended.

    Can someone suggest me an army comp or some strategy to keep my flanks from routing?

    Thanks

    Ok you need some cav of your own. Can they beat bret cav in campaign kind of depend on tecs, red line skills,...etc. but they can hold them in place. The new scorge runners are great counter out side of peg knights and mounted yeoman there are no units for that can catch them. Get more hydra, khardybyss. Brets have hard time killing those.

    Get death hag, with morthi there debuff stack. Allowing your cold one cav to win the fight.

    If you have money get black guard doom stack. With monsters.

    Screen knights of the realm, grail knights charges with your cheap cav. They can only be effective on the charge.eg knighys are pretty much same.

    Questing knights have no sheild so missile can hurt them.

    Mounted yeoman are pretty weak, knoght errant again charge bonus need, actually have trouble finshing things off without charge bonus.

    Another counter are bolt throwers on single shot. Kills models on every hit.

    Hippo knights have decent melee stats but they get stuck on stuff. Have supporting units. In those engagements but ones there in sustained combat you can bring them down easily
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • dchip1dchip1 Registered Users Posts: 646
    Also depending on the map, you might be able to position yourself up hill which will help with calvary charges. Also if you can try to surround their cavalry after they charge, like move a unit that's to the left or right of the unit being attacked behind the calvary if possible so you can pen them in
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 13,310
    Just spam Dreadspears together with some Kharybdyss monsters.

    Cav pretty much sucks in Total war warhammer so you can even win against the best Cav units with just using some cheap spearmen.
  • EarthDragonEarthDragon Registered Users Posts: 404
    ArneSo said:

    Just spam Dreadspears together with some Kharybdyss monsters.

    Cav pretty much sucks in Total war warhammer so you can even win against the best Cav units with just using some cheap spearmen.

    I think the exact opposite. Even spearman can get sandwiched and annihilated by Cav units. Hammer and Anvil is just as devastating here as anywhere else.

    It’s true Cav don’t hold up as well as they should if just left in a fight, but cycle charging isn’t that hard to pull off either, and most tier 4-5 Cav can still dominate spearman units
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 175
    edited December 2019
    ArneSo said:

    Just spam Dreadspears together with some Kharybdyss monsters.

    Cav pretty much sucks in Total war warhammer so you can even win against the best Cav units with just using some cheap spearmen.

    Incorrecty. Default spearmen is trash against well controlled cav, even empire knights. Pegasus and hippogryphs can easily smash even black guards or phoenix guards if they controlled by a good player, AI a little bit dumb to do the same things.

    Cavalry is very good in this game, If you don't know how to use cav, it doesn't mean cav is bad. Maybe problem in your skills? I'm pretty sure it is.
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,650
    RikRiorik said:

    If you're facing off with Bretonnia as Morathi your game should be pretty far along. Replace Dreadspears with Black Guard for the same Bonus vs Large effect but better killing and staying power against the armoured Bretonnian Kniggets. Maybe throw in a Kharybdiss to munch on them further with extra Bonus vs Large. I think normal Cold One Knights also have Bonus vs Large. Them's the easiest solutions.

    If they do break through make sure to have you missile units spaced out so that they can support each other and not be charged two or more at the same time.

    Shout out to all the brave kniggets out there
  • Aram_theheadAram_thehead Registered Users Posts: 1,005
    RikRiorik said:

    If you're facing off with Bretonnia as Morathi your game should be pretty far along. Replace Dreadspears with Black Guard for the same Bonus vs Large effect but better killing and staying power against the armoured Bretonnian Kniggets. Maybe throw in a Kharybdiss to munch on them further with extra Bonus vs Large. I think normal Cold One Knights also have Bonus vs Large. Them's the easiest solutions.

    If they do break through make sure to have you missile units spaced out so that they can support each other and not be charged two or more at the same time.

    this. Also remember to put your missile units on guard mode, so they don't chase the cavalry units.
  • VictuzVictuz Registered Users Posts: 192
    Yeah the same happened to me when I was a beginner.

    The thing we want you to know is that you have two types of units that counter cavalry and monsters in the game:

    1. Units with Anti-Large attribute, and with Normal damage.
    2. Units with Anti-Large attribute, and with Armor-Piercing damage.

    You use the first one to face cavalry or monsters that doesn't have much armor, they usually have 30 points of armor or less. So then again you use them against light-armored cavalry, or trolls, or minotaurs, or giants etc etc, any type of light or no armored big things.

    The second one, you are supposed to use them against heavily armored large targets, like for example Empire Knights, Dragon Princes, Dinossaurs, Arachnarok Spiders, statues from Tomb Kings etc etc, because the weapons that they use can pass through the armor of your enemies, but their damage is not as effective when used against light-armored large units.
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 13,310
    edited December 2019

    ArneSo said:

    Just spam Dreadspears together with some Kharybdyss monsters.

    Cav pretty much sucks in Total war warhammer so you can even win against the best Cav units with just using some cheap spearmen.

    Incorrecty. Default spearmen is trash against well controlled cav, even empire knights. Pegasus and hippogryphs can easily smash even black guards or phoenix guards if they controlled by a good player, AI a little bit dumb to do the same things.

    Cavalry is very good in this game, If you don't know how to use cav, it doesn't mean cav is bad. Maybe problem in your skills? I'm pretty sure it is.
    I only play campaigns so I don’t care about multiplayer. Against the AI you can easily win with most Spear unit against most Cav units.

    Like I said, some dreadspears supported by some anti large Kharybdyss, a back line of Darkshardes and a good mage and the battle is yours.

    In late Game you should obviously use Black Guard instead of Dreadspears and Shades instead of Darkshardes.

    Well I know how to use Cav, but the AI doesn’t... 😉
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 175
    edited December 2019
    I didn't mention MP here. Cavalry well balanced both in SP and MP. Your spearmen spam gonna be useless against any another infantry units, but if you playing battles on normal difficulty maybe this will works. On VH I don't think so. Also, massive spam of tier1 units not a good tactic. I think any bretonnian full stack with some knights will destroy such a trasharmy, but AI doing some real weird **** sometimes, so, who knows. You need black guards and shades in mid game, not just late.
    Post edited by Frank9945671 on
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 13,310

    I didn't mention MP here. Cavalry well balanced both in SP and MP. Your spearmen spam gonna be useless against any another infantry units, but if you playing battles on normal difficulty maybe this will works. On VH I don't think so. Also, massive spam of tier1 units not a good tactic. I think any bretonnian full stack with some knights will destroy such a trasharmy, but AI doing some real weird **** sometimes, so, who knows. You need black guards and shades in mid game, not just late.

    That’s what I said, early game Dreadspears, late game Black Guard Spam.
  • beegee84beegee84 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 293
    edited December 2019
    You shouldn't be using any dreadspears past the first 20 turns. There tier 1 infantry so supposed to be amogst the dark elves weakest units

    Use dragons against cav or harpies with missles support.

    Dont bother with your own cav as it wont stand toe to toe with bretonnias

    Flyers in general do well

    Infantry isn't the best way to deal with them even if the infantry has anti large, Cavalry is too fast for infantry
  • VictuzVictuz Registered Users Posts: 192
    beegee84 said:

    You shouldn't be using any dreadspears past the first 20 turns. There tier 1 infantry so supposed to be amogst the dark elves weakest units

    Use dragons against cav or harpies with missles support.

    Dont bother with your own cav as it wont stand toe to toe with bretonnias

    Flyers in general do well

    Infantry isn't the best way to deal with them even if the infantry has anti large, Cavalry is too fast for infantry

    You still need Anti-Large in your army though, or you're gonna face the consequences sooner or later.

    Unless you have doomstacks of ripped units.
  • beegee84beegee84 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 293
    edited December 2019
    Victuz said:

    beegee84 said:

    You shouldn't be using any dreadspears past the first 20 turns. There tier 1 infantry so supposed to be amogst the dark elves weakest units

    Use dragons against cav or harpies with missles support.

    Dont bother with your own cav as it wont stand toe to toe with bretonnias

    Flyers in general do well

    Infantry isn't the best way to deal with them even if the infantry has anti large, Cavalry is too fast for infantry

    You still need Anti-Large in your army though, or you're gonna face the consequences sooner or later.

    Unless you have doomstacks of ripped units.
    The original question was against bretonnia cav as dark elves. Against different match ups id suggest different counters.

    Flyers with missle support are the best way to counter bretonnia cav.

    In fact its the best way for DE to deal with any cav.

    I literally never use cav as dark elves as flyers are simply better

    Having witch elves mixed in with your infantry on the flanks is important aswell as they will lock enemy Cavalry in place

    My infantry frontline with DE is always a mix because different infantry offer different buffs or debuffs

    Its the only race I use a complete mix up of infantry in the front line with
  • RodentofDoomRodentofDoom Registered Users Posts: 578
    edited December 2019
    Bret Cav has lots of armour.

    Darkshards have AP, which is handy.
    Shades do AP aswell, but are higher tier and therefore more expensive
    Use Darkshards/Shades on the left flank to shoot at engaging Cavalry on the right flank as that can reduce the problem with blocked LOS due to friendly units. (they should take up a diagonal stance ~45' behind your frontline)

    If you are feeling particularly brave, you can advance your ranged units and fire into the rear of engaging units, this works better with shades as they have better melee stats if/when countered.
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