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I want balanced armies!

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  • MasariusMasarius Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 991
    edited December 2019
    ArneSo said:

    Masarius said:

    May you post a screenshot of doomstacks, because I barely see any in my plays.

    Usually the armies are a solid mix.

    Well a Doomstack is something like:
    6 Phoenix Guard
    4 Swordmasters
    4 Dragon princes
    2 Dragons
    2 Phoenixes

    That’s a standard HE army around turn 50. gets really boring to fight against those units because you are forced to spam elite units as well. I always like to have realistic armies, with some basic units flavoured with some elites here and there.
    Wait what?

    This is what people consider a doomstack?

    This is simply a high level tier army.

    Real Doomstacks are like 19 dragons and a caster on an eagle.

    ____


    Go ahead, mod your games and play with peasants till turn 200 if you want to, but those are 100% not doomstacks. Or just don't upgrade your buildings.

    People want a challange and complain that the AI is too dumb.

    Now for once, the AI uses proper army composition which might be a challenge and now they are considered doomstacks by some.

    I think I will leave this thread and forget it ever existed.
    Till shade is gone,
    till water is gone,
    into the Shadow with the teeth bared,
    screaming defiance with the last breath,
    to spit into Sightblinder's eye on the Last Day
  • JastalllJastalll Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,171
    Red_Dox said:

    HoneyBun said:

    Masarius said:

    May you post a screenshot of doomstacks, because I barely see any in my plays.

    Usually the armies are a solid mix.

    We've had this debate, 'doomstacks' are a myth.



    I would still argue, they exist.

    ------Red Dox

    I'd argue the only true doomstack here is the HE one. VC one has lots of vulnerabilities, and c'mon, Lizardman one is half composed of basic units.

    My issue with making basic units relevant all game long is that it would harm the sense of progression you get when you upgrade your armies. It's cool to go from an army of Bleakswords, Darkshards and Dark Riders to one of Executioners, Black Guard, Shades and Cold Ones.

    I think changes to how economy and Supply Lines work would be better than any implementation of caps, whenever soft or hard.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 27,067
    edited December 2019
    Doomstacks are all armies with nothing but T4 and T5 units. There's no debating that. By turn 30-50 all AI stacks will be that and the player has no reason to use anything weaker thanks to the broken economy, the fact that all troops replenish equally fast and the supply lines penalty which makes going wide less efficient. 80% of all units in the game disappear and only a handful of top tiers remain. Why should CA even bother with "complete" rosters if they intend for most of them to be mere early game filler?

    When all troops are elites, essentially none are.

    Also, other TW didn't have elite spam as bad as Warhammer. ToB and 3K avert it with better recruitment and way better economical balancing so this is absolutely not something intrinsic to TW.

  • JadawinKhanidiJadawinKhanidi Registered Users Posts: 1,177
    "Doomstack" is not a trademarked term and obviously means different things to different people.

    Fact is, both the player and the AI can start recruiting the most elite units in the game very, very early. That is very unusual for a game. In most games, you really need to progress for a long time to unlock the most powerful units, items, weapons or whatever it is in the particular game.

    As an analogy, if XCOM2 was like TWW, you'd have Plasma Guns after the first month and Assault Rifles or Magnetic Rifles would be completely useless and nobody would use them anymore after about 10% progress in the campaign. That is very odd game design, to put it mildly.

    Now it's not necessarily bad or wrong to make all units in the game available early, if the game is designed so that all units remain relevant and have useful roles throughout the campaign. A good example here would be EVE Online, where all or at least most ships have their place, and even a very cheap small frigate can fulfill a role and do things that a supercapital which costs about 50,000 times as much cannot do.

    Designing a game so that 50-80% of the units, with all the art and animations and other work that went into them, becomes completely obsolete after a very short time, is simply wrong.

    A completely different topic is whether the "doomstacks" as they exist now - or "strong high-tier armies", if you prefer - are imbalanced or unfair. They are clearly NOT. Because the player can easily make the same and even much more powerful doomstacks.

    So toning down "AI doomstacks" without limiting the player means simply cheesing the game.

    Now if you don't want to cheese, but also want all units to remain relevant throughout the game, then the TT Caps mod or my own mod Cost-based Army Caps is the solution.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 27,067
    ToB and 3K have all unit types available right away save for a bunch you need to research. It's just that, as I said, it balanced the economy better so you can't go all out elite spam in all your armies until fairly late in the game and even then regular tier troops never quite lose their edge. ToB also has unit pools, so you can only recruit so many units of any type at once and elites take much longer for their pools to refresh.

  • JastalllJastalll Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,171
    edited December 2019

    ToB and 3K have all unit types available right away save for a bunch you need to research. It's just that, as I said, it balanced the economy better so you can't go all out elite spam in all your armies until fairly late in the game and even then regular tier troops never quite lose their edge. ToB also has unit pools, so you can only recruit so many units of any type at once and elites take much longer for their pools to refresh.

    Problem is, while I didn't play ToB, I found it quite boring that my starting army in 3K was basically good enough to destroy anything the AI threw at me. I never felt any need to get elite units in that game (not helped by how most of the cool ones are locked behind prohibitively high-end technologies) and so had the vast majority of my troops as Militias well into turn 150, when I was Emperor and conquered close to half of China. Which might be realistic to some degree or another (not familiar with ancient Chinese armies), but removed the cool sense of progression Warhammer provides.

    I'm not saying the current system is perfect. But it is better than 3Ks's for sure. A middle ground would be best, but I'm not sure if caps are the ideal. I could see the player just stacking one army with elites and obliterating anything in their way with it, for example.

    EDIT: I also see some hyperbole here. No, the AI isn't just running around with stacks full of T4-5 units by turn 50, let's not be ridiculous. Maybe Tyrion does if he got his ass kicked but has Lothern already high enough to bounce back with an elite stack, but that's an issue with HEs being so powerful and unchallenged in campaign. Most races are in basic units + tier 3s by turn 50, I rarely see really scary stacks before turns 80-90, where the player can very much answer, playing on VH.
  • Jman5Jman5 Registered Users Posts: 819
    edited December 2019
    HoneyBun said:

    Jman5 said:


    You seem to view having to use tier 1 units in the late game as some sort of punishment. I see it as a triumph for player choice, army diversity, and strategy.

    Being forced to do something has never been a triumph for choice.

    I accept there are a small amount of people who want to completely restructure the way TW games work in order to compel player and AI to use tier 1 units in late game. I just note that people who think that can use mods.

    I understand those people - TT warhammer was structured like that just before it died (it had different rules when it was profitable). People can get nostalgic for all sorts of things.

    But even if those people refuse to use mods and want to continue to lobby CA via the forum (their right after all), I would suggest their argument is not well served by the hyperbolic myth of 'doomstacks'.

    No one has ever demonstrated a doomstack. The phrase is of no value.
    Doomstack term has value. You just seemed to have narrowed the definition to the point where they can't exist. In Custom Battle, the default largest army you can make is 17,000 gold. In my mind any army whose base value is greater than 25,000 gold (ignoring promotions) would be considered a Doomstack.

    By changing the rules so that the entire roster is viable in some capacity past turn 50, it absolutely is creating more player choice. When every AI army is waltzing around with mainly tier 4/5 army stacks you are railroaded into also picking tier 4/5 units.

    What anti-cap people often do is pretend that more player choice exists because technically the absolute theoretical number of army builds you can make is higher. You can technically build an army of Skavenslaves on turn 100. However in practice under the current capless and reinforcement rules, this is not a real choice unless you enjoy losing.

    If you introduced some sort of cap, and you adjusted the reinforcement system to allow for "Zerg" style play, you would create more viable army compositions.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 27,067
    Elite spamming and doomstacking destroys choice. Spam elites or be punished by the game for not doing what it wants you to do. Never feels good.

    Nope, having only 4-5 units of all rosters matter is utter and total BS. Immersion is obliterated by the all-elite armies swarming the map by turn 50. Did you know that all those elf units that feature a place name in their moniker only ever come from that one place and nowhere else? With such a bottlenecked availability, how come Swordmasters are the standard troops of all high elf armies so quickly?

    Also, it's a total deflection to bash ToB's recruitment, the best damn one in the entire TW series, just because the game supposedly wasn't a topseller. Sorry, that's not how that goes.

  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 175
    edited December 2019
    Okay, I get it. Any AI's army with some elite units means doomstack for casual players. They want ridiculous nerfs for AI and what some hardcore players should to do now? Cmon, just play on normal guys. Here is no doomstacks actually, you can counterpick everything. I no need easy game, just because some one can't learn it.
    vova514 said:



    it's not fun when all enemy armies are all the same.it forces me to build the same army for each lord myself.and yes darkshards are pretty good even in late game,but what about corsairs?witch elves?they get slaughtered by swordmasters and friends ,and i would like to face armies where these units are relevant too

    Yeah, when AI recruits just same tier1 units in begining it's fine, but elite... oh... it's too much. When you playing as Empire(or anyone else) you probably doing the same things in every campaign, recruiting the same units or not? I mean, build order pretty much the same. Okay, and what about elite or just pretty OP units for player at the beginnig(like knights of realm, pegasus knights, hydra, reiksguard, blood knights, etc which easily can kill hundreds of AI units)? It's really fun to rape AI with some knights at the beginning, but when AI able to use the same things it's not, yeah?
    Post edited by Frank9945671 on
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 27,067

    Okay, I get it. Any AI's army with some elite units means doomstack for casual players. They want ridiculous nerfs for AI and what some hardcore players should to do now? Cmon, just play on normal guys. Here is no doomstacks actually.

    "Doomstacks are all armies with nothing but T4 and T5 units. "
    HoneyBun said:

    Elite spamming and doomstacking destroys choice.

    Elite spam or Doomstacking

    ?

    So the problem has changed a little - even for you.

    In a stack limited to 20 units, how much choice do you think a game should have?

    I've never opposed constructive criticism to CA. I encourage rational argument about changing supply lines per race and even changing the 20 unit hard cap by race.

    But this myth of doomstack. Can we please let that die?
    No. It's always been the same and your attempts at semantics and gaslighting fail at impressing anyone.

    CA needs to fix the game.

  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 13,067

    Okay, I get it. Any AI's army with some elite units means doomstack for casual players. They want ridiculous nerfs for AI and what some hardcore players should to do now? Cmon, just play on normal guys. Here is no doomstacks actually.

    No AI armies ONLY using elite units are doomstacks.

    You just don’t get the point mate. It’s not that it is to difficult or anything. It’s just that the game forces you to only use the best units in a way that basic core troops like state troops, Corsairs or Orc Boyz get totally worthless. Those units are just worth a spot in your army during the first 20-50 turns. So why even bother releasing complete rosters huh? Wolf rats for moulder? Why? You don’t use them anyways.

    Elite units should be... well you know... elite. That means they are kinda rare and don’t form the core of your army.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,189
    HoneyBun said:

    @Itharus In your two posts we moved from 'doomstacks' appearing at turn 60 to turn 50 and from the player not being able to field high tier armies, to the player can if I play dwarfs.

    The forum urban legend that is 'doomstacks' is really just a convenient emotional blame for when a player finds a campaign challenging.

    That does not make it real.

    60 was my experience, 50 was in reference to the OP's experience, and Dwarfs can always doomstack. Seriously the second you take Barak Varr you are rolling in money so bad that you've given Scrooge McDuck an erection. Dwarfs are special like that.

    And ftr...... facing doomstacks..... constantly.......... is not a challenge. It's god-damned tedium. It's also lore and immersion breaking as all hell and WORSE -- it FORCES you to respond in kind because there's no incentive at all to use balanced armies even if your chosen faction's non-elites are still capable (not true for everyone). This gets further complicated by stupid supply lines mechanics and horribly imbalanced replenishment mechanics -- neither of which the AI suffer.
  • KielWeiss88KielWeiss88 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 9
    None of those are doomstacks. If you want unit caps there are several mods you can use or turn the difficulty down. Game isn't broken just because the AI uses T4/5 units at the end of the game. That's how the game should work.
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 175
    edited December 2019
    ArneSo said:

    Okay, I get it. Any AI's army with some elite units means doomstack for casual players. They want ridiculous nerfs for AI and what some hardcore players should to do now? Cmon, just play on normal guys. Here is no doomstacks actually.

    No AI armies ONLY using elite units are doomstacks.

    You just don’t get the point mate. It’s not that it is to difficult or anything. It’s just that the game forces you to only use the best units in a way that basic core troops like state troops, Corsairs or Orc Boyz get totally worthless. Those units are just worth a spot in your army during the first 20-50 turns. So why even bother releasing complete rosters huh? Wolf rats for moulder? Why? You don’t use them anyways.

    Elite units should be... well you know... elite. That means they are kinda rare and don’t form the core of your army.


    And same for every TW game so far, so why it's became a problem just now? I don't mind if CA will add some caps like they did for TKs(they are my top3 after DEs and Bretonnia), but I guess this should be optional, don't know, can't say for sure if I never tried this, but anyway, I never use absolute trash tier units when I playing TK in late game, I trying to use only mid or top, because:


  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 27,067
    edited December 2019

    ArneSo said:

    Okay, I get it. Any AI's army with some elite units means doomstack for casual players. They want ridiculous nerfs for AI and what some hardcore players should to do now? Cmon, just play on normal guys. Here is no doomstacks actually.

    No AI armies ONLY using elite units are doomstacks.

    You just don’t get the point mate. It’s not that it is to difficult or anything. It’s just that the game forces you to only use the best units in a way that basic core troops like state troops, Corsairs or Orc Boyz get totally worthless. Those units are just worth a spot in your army during the first 20-50 turns. So why even bother releasing complete rosters huh? Wolf rats for moulder? Why? You don’t use them anyways.

    Elite units should be... well you know... elite. That means they are kinda rare and don’t form the core of your army.


    And same for every TW game so far,
    You've already been proven wrong on that.

    NO other TW game has the doomstacking as bad as this one. Every single TW game but this one had measures in place to try and prevent it to varying degrees of success. This is the only game that full on encourages spamming elites.

    None of those are doomstacks. If you want unit caps there are several mods you can use or turn the difficulty down. Game isn't broken just because the AI uses T4/5 units at the end of the game. That's how the game should work.

    No, it should not work like that at all. It destroyes immersion utterly and completely when elites become regulars since that's neither in the spirit of the lore or the TT game this is an adaption of.

    Why bother with "complete" rosters when most of those units are irrelevant?

    Can any doomstack apologist actually reply to this?

  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 175
    edited December 2019
    Itharus said:



    60 was my experience, 50 was in reference to the OP's experience, and Dwarfs can always doomstack. Seriously the second you take Barak Varr you are rolling in money so bad that you've given Scrooge McDuck an erection. Dwarfs are special like that.

    And ftr...... facing doomstacks..... constantly.......... is not a challenge. It's god-damned tedium. It's also lore and immersion breaking as all hell and WORSE -- it FORCES you to respond in kind because there's no incentive at all to use balanced armies even if your chosen faction's non-elites are still capable (not true for everyone). This gets further complicated by stupid supply lines mechanics and horribly imbalanced replenishment mechanics -- neither of which the AI suffer.

    For me "balanced" stack means you have enough melee, missile and cav units to face probably anyone or maybe just specific race, this cannot be connected with quality of units. So, player need to find this balance at any stage of the campaign. But you just asking for unit caps, how that related to "balanced" stacks title?
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 175


    You've already been proven wrong on that.

    NO other TW game has the doomstacking as bad as this one. Every single TW game but this one had measures in place to try and prevent it to varying degrees of success. This is the only game that full on encourages spamming elites.

    Yeah, you that guy who knows everything in this world. Every unit in game just a reskin of skeleton, I got your point. Anyway, I played a lot TW games and I'm, pretty sure you mistake, buddy.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 27,067

    Itharus said:



    60 was my experience, 50 was in reference to the OP's experience, and Dwarfs can always doomstack. Seriously the second you take Barak Varr you are rolling in money so bad that you've given Scrooge McDuck an erection. Dwarfs are special like that.

    And ftr...... facing doomstacks..... constantly.......... is not a challenge. It's god-damned tedium. It's also lore and immersion breaking as all hell and WORSE -- it FORCES you to respond in kind because there's no incentive at all to use balanced armies even if your chosen faction's non-elites are still capable (not true for everyone). This gets further complicated by stupid supply lines mechanics and horribly imbalanced replenishment mechanics -- neither of which the AI suffer.

    For me "balanced" stack means you have enough melee, missile and cav units to face probably anyone or maybe just specific race, this cannot be connected with quality of units. So, player need to find this balance at any stage of the campaign. But you just asking for unit caps, how that related to "balanced" stacks title?
    No, that's not what a "balanced" stack is. A balanced stick combines units of all tiers, not of all types.

  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 175


    No, that's not what a "balanced" stack is. A balanced stick combines units of all tiers, not of all types.

    I don't think so. Tell me... If AI will use just 2-3 low tier units, but everything else is elite that will be a balanced army, right? And you gonna be happy? I mean, "balanced" means right army composition for different situations, basically.
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 13,067

    Itharus said:



    60 was my experience, 50 was in reference to the OP's experience, and Dwarfs can always doomstack. Seriously the second you take Barak Varr you are rolling in money so bad that you've given Scrooge McDuck an erection. Dwarfs are special like that.

    And ftr...... facing doomstacks..... constantly.......... is not a challenge. It's god-damned tedium. It's also lore and immersion breaking as all hell and WORSE -- it FORCES you to respond in kind because there's no incentive at all to use balanced armies even if your chosen faction's non-elites are still capable (not true for everyone). This gets further complicated by stupid supply lines mechanics and horribly imbalanced replenishment mechanics -- neither of which the AI suffer.

    For me "balanced" stack means you have enough melee, missile and cav units to face probably anyone or maybe just specific race, this cannot be connected with quality of units. So, player need to find this balance at any stage of the campaign. But you just asking for unit caps, how that related to "balanced" stacks title?
    Nope balanced means units from all tiers in one army. So a core of basic troops, some elite units and a few rare units like dragons.

    Core units:
    Early game units useful for every kind of situation. Nothing fancy, but those guys doing the god damned job. Most early game armies are formed around just these units.

    Special units:
    Things are getting interesting. Some toys to spice up your army around midgame. Core units still be basic troops but those units are filling the niches.

    Rare units:
    Late game armies should start to bring the heavy weights into the ring. Most armies get some extra powder with Stuff like dragons, Necrofex-Colossi or carnos for example. Maybe just 2-3 units per army but not more... I mean they are rare so common.

    This is the way late game armies should be formed and not only special plus rare units. Core troops are the bread and butter, I mean they should be...

    A core of basic troops (~10 slots)
    + a bunch of special units for extra salt
    + 1-3 rare units as the cherry on top

    So let’s play this game with the Dark Elves:

    Early game army:
    Darkshards
    Bleakswords
    Dreadspears
    Harpies
    Corsairs

    Midgame Armies:
    Darkshardes
    Bleakswords
    Dreadspears
    Corsairs
    Cold ones
    Shades
    Manticores
    Chariots
    ...

    Late game armies:
    Darkshardes
    Bleakswords
    Dreadspears
    Corsairs
    Cold ones
    Shades
    Black guards
    Black Dragons
    Hydras
    Kharybdyss
    Black Guards
    ...

    You see what I mean?
    Late game armies should add more variety into your Barebone early game roster with better units spicing up your core. but the core should still be useful. Elites should not make core units obsolete, but that’s unfortunately the case right now.

    A doomstack is an army only using the best elite units while ignoring basic core troops.
  • PaulicusPaulicus Registered Users Posts: 154
    I like that no one in this thread has bothered to defend the vanilla balance in this game, instead arguing only the semantics of what is and isn't a "doomstack." Kinda missing the point guys.

    Personally, I like smaller/focused battles and wish TWW didn't encourage immediately maximizing army size and spamming elite units, but at least we have mods to fix this.

    To the OP: Steel Faith is your answer. It rebalances units so most/all of them have some use, makes battles last longer than a few minutes, and has a few different optional systems of unit caps - including the type you're looking for. Try it out, you'll be pleasantly surprised.
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 175
    edited December 2019
    ArneSo said:

    Itharus said:



    60 was my experience, 50 was in reference to the OP's experience, and Dwarfs can always doomstack. Seriously the second you take Barak Varr you are rolling in money so bad that you've given Scrooge McDuck an erection. Dwarfs are special like that.

    And ftr...... facing doomstacks..... constantly.......... is not a challenge. It's god-damned tedium. It's also lore and immersion breaking as all hell and WORSE -- it FORCES you to respond in kind because there's no incentive at all to use balanced armies even if your chosen faction's non-elites are still capable (not true for everyone). This gets further complicated by stupid supply lines mechanics and horribly imbalanced replenishment mechanics -- neither of which the AI suffer.

    For me "balanced" stack means you have enough melee, missile and cav units to face probably anyone or maybe just specific race, this cannot be connected with quality of units. So, player need to find this balance at any stage of the campaign. But you just asking for unit caps, how that related to "balanced" stacks title?
    Nope balanced means units from all tiers in one army. So a core of basic troops, some elite units and a few rare units like dragons.

    Core units:
    Early game units useful for every kind of situation. Nothing fancy, but those guys doing the god damned job. Most early game armies are formed around just these units.

    Special units:
    Things are getting interesting. Some toys to spice up your army around midgame. Core units still be basic troops but those units are filling the niches.

    Rare units:
    Late game armies should start to bring the heavy weights into the ring. Most armies get some extra powder with Stuff like dragons, Necrofex-Colossi or carnos for example. Maybe just 2-3 units per army but not more... I mean they are rare so common.

    This is the way late game armies should be formed and not only special plus rare units. Core troops are the bread and butter, I mean they should be...

    A core of basic troops (~10 slots)
    + a bunch of special units for extra salt
    + 1-3 rare units as the cherry on top

    So let’s play this game with the Dark Elves:

    Early game army:
    Darkshards
    Bleakswords
    Dreadspears
    Harpies
    Corsairs

    Midgame Armies:
    Darkshardes
    Bleakswords
    Dreadspears
    Corsairs
    Cold ones
    Shades
    Manticores
    Chariots
    ...

    Late game armies:
    Darkshardes
    Bleakswords
    Dreadspears
    Corsairs
    Cold ones
    Shades
    Black guards
    Black Dragons
    Hydras
    Kharybdyss
    Black Guards
    ...

    You see what I mean?
    Late game armies should add more variety into your Barebone early game roster with better units spicing up your core. but the core should still be useful. Elites should not make core units obsolete, but that’s unfortunately the case right now.

    A doomstack is an army only using the best elite units while ignoring basic core troops.
    Corsairs are not tier 1\core trash, man. They cannot be early unit like dreadspears if you ask me. I mean they gonna rape dreadspears and bleakswords easilly. Where is witch elves, sisters of slaughter, har ganet executioners, dark riders, etc? This is road to nowhere, really. Just play on easy and use whatever you want then.

    Just admit the fact you don't like to face elite troops in the game. But if you gonna play on easy, I'm pretty sure AI wasn't able to send agaisnt you a lot of good armies, so that's your best solution. Difference in difficulties lays in buffs and debuffs for AI or player, basically.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,189

    Itharus said:



    60 was my experience, 50 was in reference to the OP's experience, and Dwarfs can always doomstack. Seriously the second you take Barak Varr you are rolling in money so bad that you've given Scrooge McDuck an erection. Dwarfs are special like that.

    And ftr...... facing doomstacks..... constantly.......... is not a challenge. It's god-damned tedium. It's also lore and immersion breaking as all hell and WORSE -- it FORCES you to respond in kind because there's no incentive at all to use balanced armies even if your chosen faction's non-elites are still capable (not true for everyone). This gets further complicated by stupid supply lines mechanics and horribly imbalanced replenishment mechanics -- neither of which the AI suffer.

    For me "balanced" stack means you have enough melee, missile and cav units to face probably anyone or maybe just specific race, this cannot be connected with quality of units. So, player need to find this balance at any stage of the campaign. But you just asking for unit caps, how that related to "balanced" stacks title?
    Not even every race does have counters to everything, lol.

    Disparity of quality is also a huge problem because the game literally DOES NOT ALLOW you to bring enough **** forces to stand a prayer against an elite doomstack. Also the AI can spam these things, they heal up in one turn, they can field many more than you at all game stages, and they can get them considerably earlier than you. It's a huge problem.

    @KielWeiss88 They're using these forces in the early game. Also see arguments above. Furthermore, the beauty of this game is its diversity... when you're stuck with the same 2-3 units over and over it's ****. I could play a paradox game if I wanted that.
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 175
    edited December 2019
    Itharus said:



    Not even every race does have counters to everything, lol.

    Disparity of quality is also a huge problem because the game literally DOES NOT ALLOW you to bring enough **** forces to stand a prayer against an elite doomstack. Also the AI can spam these things, they heal up in one turn, they can field many more than you at all game stages, and they can get them considerably earlier than you. It's a huge problem.

    @KielWeiss88 They're using these forces in the early game. Also see arguments above. Furthermore, the beauty of this game is its diversity... when you're stuck with the same 2-3 units over and over it's ****. I could play a paradox game if I wanted that.

    Just play on easy!!!

    2-3 units, really? That's not true, for sure. I have nothing to say anymore, because I don't see that mysterious problem.
  • Zanemiller147Zanemiller147 Registered Users Posts: 34

    ArneSo said:

    Itharus said:



    60 was my experience, 50 was in reference to the OP's experience, and Dwarfs can always doomstack. Seriously the second you take Barak Varr you are rolling in money so bad that you've given Scrooge McDuck an erection. Dwarfs are special like that.

    And ftr...... facing doomstacks..... constantly.......... is not a challenge. It's god-damned tedium. It's also lore and immersion breaking as all hell and WORSE -- it FORCES you to respond in kind because there's no incentive at all to use balanced armies even if your chosen faction's non-elites are still capable (not true for everyone). This gets further complicated by stupid supply lines mechanics and horribly imbalanced replenishment mechanics -- neither of which the AI suffer.

    For me "balanced" stack means you have enough melee, missile and cav units to face probably anyone or maybe just specific race, this cannot be connected with quality of units. So, player need to find this balance at any stage of the campaign. But you just asking for unit caps, how that related to "balanced" stacks title?
    Nope balanced means units from all tiers in one army. So a core of basic troops, some elite units and a few rare units like dragons.

    Core units:
    Early game units useful for every kind of situation. Nothing fancy, but those guys doing the god damned job. Most early game armies are formed around just these units.

    Special units:
    Things are getting interesting. Some toys to spice up your army around midgame. Core units still be basic troops but those units are filling the niches.

    Rare units:
    Late game armies should start to bring the heavy weights into the ring. Most armies get some extra powder with Stuff like dragons, Necrofex-Colossi or carnos for example. Maybe just 2-3 units per army but not more... I mean they are rare so common.

    This is the way late game armies should be formed and not only special plus rare units. Core troops are the bread and butter, I mean they should be...

    A core of basic troops (~10 slots)
    + a bunch of special units for extra salt
    + 1-3 rare units as the cherry on top

    So let’s play this game with the Dark Elves:

    Early game army:
    Darkshards
    Bleakswords
    Dreadspears
    Harpies
    Corsairs

    Midgame Armies:
    Darkshardes
    Bleakswords
    Dreadspears
    Corsairs
    Cold ones
    Shades
    Manticores
    Chariots
    ...

    Late game armies:
    Darkshardes
    Bleakswords
    Dreadspears
    Corsairs
    Cold ones
    Shades
    Black guards
    Black Dragons
    Hydras
    Kharybdyss
    Black Guards
    ...

    You see what I mean?
    Late game armies should add more variety into your Barebone early game roster with better units spicing up your core. but the core should still be useful. Elites should not make core units obsolete, but that’s unfortunately the case right now.

    A doomstack is an army only using the best elite units while ignoring basic core troops.
    Corsairs are not tier 1\core trash, man. They cannot be early unit like dreadspears if you ask me. I mean they gonna rape dreadspears and bleakswords easilly. Where is witch elves, sisters of slaughter, har ganet executioners, dark riders, etc? This is road to nowhere, really. Just play on easy and use whatever you want then.

    Just admit the fact you don't like to face elite troops in the game. But if you gonna play on easy, I'm pretty sure AI wasn't able to send agaisnt you a lot of good armies, so that's your best solution. Difference in difficulties lays in buffs and debuffs for AI or player, basically.
    I was rooting for you frank up until this comment. It is ok to read things a second time if you dont understand it the first. You are clearly arguing for arguments sake and not to be understood.
  • AeneAene Registered Users Posts: 114
    Can we please distinguish between what is difficult and what is fun to play against? Most people who have a problem whith the actual system complain about the lack of variety and not the game being too hard. Its just utterly boring to fight doom or elite or whatever you wanna call them stacks consisting of the same 4 units over and over and over again. And still noone of the its fine as it is crew bothered to answer to EDs roster arguement.
  • CelebareCelebare Registered Users Posts: 66

    Itharus said:



    Not even every race does have counters to everything, lol.

    Disparity of quality is also a huge problem because the game literally DOES NOT ALLOW you to bring enough **** forces to stand a prayer against an elite doomstack. Also the AI can spam these things, they heal up in one turn, they can field many more than you at all game stages, and they can get them considerably earlier than you. It's a huge problem.

    @KielWeiss88 They're using these forces in the early game. Also see arguments above. Furthermore, the beauty of this game is its diversity... when you're stuck with the same 2-3 units over and over it's ****. I could play a paradox game if I wanted that.

    Just play on easy!!!

    2-3 units, really? That's not true, for sure. I have nothing to say anymore, because I don't see that mysterious problem.
    It seems hard for you to understand that the problem is lot the difficulty. It's that the doomstack make the game BORING !!!

    I'm sorry for you but winning against doomstacks doesn't revel a great strategist. Everybody can in this game.

    Is it clear now
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 175
    edited December 2019
    Just suggest something.
    Post edited by Frank9945671 on
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 175
    edited December 2019



    I was rooting for you frank up until this comment. It is ok to read things a second time if you dont understand it the first. You are clearly arguing for arguments sake and not to be understood.

    This should hurt my feelings somehow or what? I no need your approval, you know?
    Celebare said:



    It seems hard for you to understand that the problem is lot the difficulty. It's that the doomstack make the game BORING !!!

    I'm sorry for you but winning against doomstacks doesn't revel a great strategist. Everybody can in this game.

    Is it clear now

    Is it clear now? No, it's not. Winning against anyone not a big deal, you know? I'm pretty sure AI cannot spam you with real "doomstacks" on easy, so try it. Also, I said I don't mind if CA will rework recruitment system for all races like they did for TK faction, but this should be optional, maybe some option in campaign settings. Did you seen that part? Is it clear enough? And yeah, this not about difficulty, sure))) Facing elite army is boring for you because kinda hard to win without casualties, right?)))
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 27,067
    If all the doomstack apologists have to offer is condescension and gaslighting, then there's really no reason for CA to not fix it.

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