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Zombies useless?

SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Registered Users Posts: 1,286
After reading "Helman Ghorst the Legendslayer " I just had to play him myself.
I want to give him a more thematic armie with a couple of zombies in the front while the heavy hitter come after them.

My problem is that in my opinion they are not good in holding long enough. They get a lot of damage and crumple too fast to be valid. Skeletton Spears and warriors are better in all aspects. They are faster, have shields, make more damage and hold the line better.

I think zombies should be changed a bit to hold better, maybe more HP and leadership? What do you think?
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Comments

  • SnapperaSnappera Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,250
    They're okay for their cost. That's the key thing to consider
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  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Registered Users Posts: 1,286
    Snappera said:

    They're okay for their cost. That's the key thing to consider

    The costs are definitely fine, in my opinion they don't do what they are supposed to well. They get destroyed too quickly.
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 174
    edited December 2019
    Snappera said:

    They're okay for their cost. That's the key thing to consider

    True. You can use them at the beginning to get some advantage in numbers, but you need to research -100% upkeep for skeletons as fast as you can, after that you can spam AI with 4-5 stacks of skeletons and some more useful units like black knights, ghouls or grave guards. I don't see any reason why zombies should be changed, they are fine for their cost, just like Snappera said.
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 11,349
    edited December 2019
    Unfortunately they are useless with the enemy only spamming elite units around turn 40.
    Post edited by ArneSo on
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 174

    The costs are definitely fine, in my opinion they don't do what they are supposed to well. They get destroyed too quickly.

    They are meat shield and nothing more.
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 174
    edited December 2019
    ArneSo said:

    Unfortunately they are useless with the enemy only spams elite units around turn 40.

    Oh, no... Again... Be honest at least, man. Your posts about elites is not true.

    Anyway, zombies playing the same role as skavenslaves, but slaves a little bit more useful, I think.
  • UagrimUagrim Registered Users Posts: 1,169

    ArneSo said:

    Unfortunately they are useless with the enemy only spams elite units around turn 40.

    Oh, no... Again... Be honest at least, man. Your posts about elites is not true.

    Anyway, zombies playing the same role as skavenslaves, but slaves a little bit more useful, I think.
    Zombies don't suffer from terror or fear so they opt out, not to mention they cause fear.
  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Registered Users Posts: 1,286

    The costs are definitely fine, in my opinion they don't do what they are supposed to well. They get destroyed too quickly.

    They are meat shield and nothing more.
    Yes, meatshilds that don't fulfill this role very well. It should take time to cut through them (especially because they are so slow) but they crumple too fast.

    I don't want them to be "killier", they should just be able to take more damage.
  • MrMecHMrMecH Registered Users Posts: 2,297
    You can spam them with free upkeep after research technology. Pull your 2 army, one is main army and second is 19 zombies, and swarm your enemy.
    SHUT UP GIVE US GHORGON!!!!!

  • BaronRodneyBaronRodney Registered Users Posts: 860

    The costs are definitely fine, in my opinion they don't do what they are supposed to well. They get destroyed too quickly.

    They are meat shield and nothing more.
    Yes, meatshilds that don't fulfill this role very well. It should take time to cut through them (especially because they are so slow) but they crumple too fast.

    I don't want them to be "killier", they should just be able to take more damage.
    Just a question, but you do keep the generals bubble over them and have him cast invocation on them throughout? Because just like the tabletop their longevity comes from using them as a canvas not as an easel.
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 174


    Just a question, but you do keep the generals bubble over them and have him cast invocation on them throughout? Because just like the tabletop their longevity comes from using them as a canvas not as an easel.

    Really, try to heal them and debuff armour of enemies in the area with lore of death, for example. Also, I don't remember which one, but one of corpse carts have healing aura. I mean, zombies just need some support to be more tanky. I think their default stats is fine and they can be useful.
  • BeardedragonBeardedragon Member Registered Users Posts: 1,497

    After reading "Helman Ghorst the Legendslayer " I just had to play him myself.
    I want to give him a more thematic armie with a couple of zombies in the front while the heavy hitter come after them.

    My problem is that in my opinion they are not good in holding long enough. They get a lot of damage and crumple too fast to be valid. Skeletton Spears and warriors are better in all aspects. They are faster, have shields, make more damage and hold the line better.

    I think zombies should be changed a bit to hold better, maybe more HP and leadership? What do you think?

    im assuming you mean in campaign. but the thing is, that swarm armies of weak units will never beat doomstack armies due to increased over all upkeep cost the more armies you have.

    which is why an army of skavenslaves will not be efficient in the long run, but heavy elite units will.

    you could probably use zombies in multiplayer, but they get less effective in campaign as it progresses. they will get replaced with skeletons or grave guards.
  • innerpinnerp Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 813
    they are good for creating battle sites and catching arrows
  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Registered Users Posts: 1,286


    Just a question, but you do keep the generals bubble over them and have him cast invocation on them throughout? Because just like the tabletop their longevity comes from using them as a canvas not as an easel.

    Really, try to heal them and debuff armour of enemies in the area with lore of death, for example. Also, I don't remember which one, but one of corpse carts have healing aura. I mean, zombies just need some support to be more tanky. I think their default stats is fine and they can be useful.
    It just seems to me they get so much damage that you can't heal against it. I will see how it works after I got all research and lord skill to buff them. Maybe they work better by then.

    @Beardedragon
    Against doomstacks they loose badly, that is right. In my opinion it would be fun if it would take even elite units more time to cut through them.
  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 11,349

    ArneSo said:

    Unfortunately they are useless with the enemy only spams elite units around turn 40.

    Oh, no... Again... Be honest at least, man. Your posts about elites is not true.

    Anyway, zombies playing the same role as skavenslaves, but slaves a little bit more useful, I think.
    So Dwarfs are not using longbeard only elite stacks around turn 40?
    GS are not spamming Black Orcs around turn 40?
    It’s just ridiculous that you are constantly denying the existence of elite only stacks when everyone else is pretty aware of it.
    It’s a well known problem CA needs to fix! Not sure if you are just trolling or if you just never played the game.

    Zombies just suck, it’s always better to use a unit of skeletons instead of wasting a spot in your army with zombies. They are not even good as a meatshield so there is no reason to ever recruit a unit of them. This is caused because of the stupid supply line mechanic, which forces you and the AI to have less armies with better units.

    The same problem with Skaven and skavenslaves or GS with goblins. It’s always better to use a better unit. It goes even further. Because of the autoresolve bug you get penalties for every chaff unit in your army. So it’s always better to use Clan Rats instead of of skavenslaves, Orc Boyz instead of goblins and Skeletons instead of Zombies.

    Meatshields are just useful in multiplayer games where resources are limited. In Singleplayer, they don’t make Sense.

  • ChesterMcGirrChesterMcGirr Registered Users Posts: 1,141
    Park a necromancer hero with the passive skill Mastery of the Dead (or something like that) behind them, the passive heal aura will do wonders :)
  • KaffeemannKaffeemann Registered Users Posts: 138
    There's no reason to use them over Skeletons unfortunately.
  • HelhoundHelhound Registered Users Posts: 3,908
    In campaign they get phased out by skeletons immediately. You can always afford the difference, even before you factor in eventual 100% upkeep reduction tech. Which, if we're being fair, you don't actually need.

    In MP, not the case. For a mere 100 points, less than some items that can be picked up, you get 10080 Health. That's actually more health than skeletons and they have the same leadership for 1/3 the cost. Sure zombies are useless offensively, but the enemy has still got to get through em. That's wasted shots, wasted enemy stamina, and body blocked charges. You can straight up flood the field, and they're functionally unbreakable. All 10080 Health has to go away before they get out of the way. For 100 points.
  • corvocorvo Junior Member SpainRegistered Users Posts: 3,066
    edited December 2019

    After reading "Helman Ghorst the Legendslayer " I just had to play him myself.
    I want to give him a more thematic armie with a couple of zombies in the front while the heavy hitter come after them.

    My problem is that in my opinion they are not good in holding long enough. They get a lot of damage and crumple too fast to be valid. Skeletton Spears and warriors are better in all aspects. They are faster, have shields, make more damage and hold the line better.

    I think zombies should be changed a bit to hold better, maybe more HP and leadership? What do you think?

    of course they don't last long, they're the worst unit in the game iirc, their funtion its to stop enemy charges, outnumber the enemy and attack from the back if you summoned them in a good position.

    also they are upkeep free is you research one of the early tech, so worth imo.

    having said that, they are obviosly for early game, you could mantain a couple of unit for thematic purposes, but at the end, they will be more "lorefull" than usefull.
    Post edited by corvo on
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  • doclumbagodoclumbago Registered Users Posts: 1,676
    My biggest problem
    They're slow. So slow.
    So sunless you're fighting something without missiles you rush your army forward and the zombies come shuffling
    afterwards some time later
  • endurendur Registered Users Posts: 3,727
    Zombies work fine for their cost. They aren't as good as skeletons, and definitely not as good as skeletal spearmen, but they are still useful.

  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,932
    Zombies are fine. They're supposed to be expendable.
  • PaulicusPaulicus Registered Users Posts: 154
    This is one of the changes from SFO that I really like. Zombies are weak and can't kill anything, but they're tanky and take time to kill.
  • Frank9945671Frank9945671 Registered Users Posts: 174
    edited December 2019


    It just seems to me they get so much damage that you can't heal against it. I will see how it works after I got all research and lord skill to buff them. Maybe they work better by then.

    Even with all boosts from techs and red skills don't expect too much from zombies. I use them only at the beginning. I like to play Isabella and I need to take all Sylvania as fast as possible, for me it's about first 9-10 turns, so if I have no time to recruit or money to raise skeletons I can use some zombies, just for advantage in numbers. Same for Kemmler, zombies can be useful in first 10 or maybe 20 turns, but you need -100% upkeep for skeletons research as soon as possible.
    Post edited by Frank9945671 on
  • andrewbh2003andrewbh2003 Registered Users Posts: 130
    spoiler alert units are balanced around multiplayer not campaign

    in campaign why would you ever use anything other than elite spam given that money "except for the first 30 turns" is NEVER ever going to be a issue

    zombies only cost 100 gold for that your getting a massive hp meatbag that is completely expendable and functionally unbreakbable that can bog things down really effectively

    if they were any tankier than they already are especially since there on a roster that has acess to way too much healing then they would need a price increase

    and that would be a nerf cause at that point skeletons would be better

    if you really want tanky zombies then thats what the tithe is for they have more models and phys resist but the problem is they cost 2x as much your better bringing 2 units of reg zombs than the tithe
  • ValkorumValkorum Registered Users Posts: 41
    Zombies, bretonian pesants and skaven slaves are useless in campain, maby they should add 2 versions of them? One that is like we have now and then a larger unit that costs more, maby 2 times the models but twice the price... just an idea.
  • SephlockSephlock Registered Users Posts: 2,395
    The one thing they have going for them is that in a basic raise dead pool there will be several of them so you can panic recruit them in an emergency.
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  • Bogdanov89Bogdanov89 Registered Users Posts: 906
    edited December 2019
    Zombies are to be brought by irrelevant lords in huge numbers (19 zombie units) to "assist" you during big battles.

    Not only are they a cheap meatwall that tires enemy units but they also benefit you through raise dead mechanic.

    Sacrifice a couple units of zombies (intentionally) during combat/autoresolve and you can easily recruit high tier units (with discouts through skills/tech) in that region (city area).

    You can intentionally send lvl1 lords with 19 zombies (or even two such armies) against an enemy capitol where they will all die.
    It makes a huge battle marker for your raise dead mechanic and weakens the garrison making it easy to capture by your main lords.

    Since AI is kinda dumb you can make it waste ammo on countless zombies while your expensive troops move into position.
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  • cretchboccretchboc Registered Users Posts: 49
    Ok soooo everyone needs to listen. At the moment using skeletons as meat shield is obvious. Both can be free so make the faster better unit free. Zombies are good as summoned units on ranged or to stop charges. Lets just answer the question. Zombies suck are only good if you have nothing else.

    Ps merry christmas :smiley:
  • AsamuAsamu Registered Users Posts: 688
    Many of you have clearly never run full trash armies in a legendary campaign. It works just fine. You just have to auto-resolve basically everything when the armies are comprised of nothing else. A couple stacks of trash are pretty good in auto resolve, and they're not bad for throwing in front of the army during sieges to occupy the walls. Saves funds for the rest of the army if you're tight on income.

    This is especially true in the case of VC, where it generates huge battle markers, which can be used to instantly replenish your trash zombie/skeleton armies.
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