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Potential mechanics for Eltharion, Waystone Restoration, Kingdom Standing, and Greenskins Aggression

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  • kelembriborkelembribor Registered Users Posts: 674
    edited December 2019
    Draxynnic said:



    Draxynnic said:

    Besides being from beginning to the end in every High Elf Armybook he had art done as great artist such as Mark Gibbons, Paul Dainton and Magali Villeneuve.

    He wasn't in the 6E army book, while Imrik was. In 6E, his rules came in a supplement... just like Imrik in 8E.

    He was blinded by Malekith then and was training with Loremaster Belannaer with Short story "The Blade Reforged" in very 6th edition and rules came in White Dwarf supplements along with miniature for Eltharion the Blind.
    So he really was part of the edition still.
    By the same logic, Imrik is 8th edition as much as Eltharion was 6th edition.

    Eltharion didn't have rules in the 6th edition book, but was mentioned in the fluff within the book, and had rules printed (both historical and blind) in 6E supplementary material.

    Imrik didn't have rules in the 8th edition book, but was mentioned in the fluff within the book, and had rules printed in 8E supplementary material.

    The two situations are equivalent, and if you consider that being mentioned and then having rules elsewhere is enough to say Eltharion was in the 6E book, then the same is true of Imrik in 8E.
    Boreal said:

    Red_Dox said:

    Arsenic said:

    The more I read these threads, the more convinced I am very few want Eltharion for anything unique he brings to the table, they just want him because they think more Greenskin stuff is likely alongside him.

    You can say the same thing for the Imrik fanatics. There is nothing special about him, so every little piece of stuff will get blown out of proportian to make him sound like Superman, just to justify his measly existence.
    It's already on a Trump level of fakenews bad, as seen in this topic as well, where Eltharion is pointed out to save only one waystone by coincidence but Galactic President Superstar McAwesomeville as the real hero of the entire world, flies over to Bretonnia and does the same stuff on purpose which makes it 500% better. Instead of just a shady footnote.
    Apparently the same narrators for this fakenews story also always downplay the significance of 20.000 Goblins invading Ulthuan and nearly bringing the island and the whole world at risk, but the footnote rescue in Bretonnia that apparently was a well planned plot to save the entire universe! Becasue GW also did tell that story in 10 well written pages as the lore groundwork for the one HE character who was always around in every armybook! All hail the prince without magic, riding the flying monster. Which is totally different to that other prince without magic, riding another flying monster!

    And lets not forget all the made up and very logical units that our chad Imrik brings to the table. Emperor Dragons as hero choices and Dragons for every Lord and Hero in existence. And Demidragons to ride for the Dragon Guard special unit. And five more feral Dragon variants, because there are never enough and it really brings a lot of diversity to the roster. And some special mechanic concerning Dragons because unbuffed dragons are just wimps.
    How can Eltharion compare with that by just bringing the rest of the armybook with him and maybe some special Yvresse troop, while we all know there are no special Yvresse troops anyway? Since Caledor was, is and always will be the cultural center of Ulthuan with the capital city!

    ------Red Dox
    It's rare for sarcasm to be so truthful. It reminds me of a situation from my early school days when one of my classmates said something like this 'yeah, sure, there is no bigger half'.

    It's true, Imrik of Caledor has done wonderful things, like crushing Druchii army during invasion. And yes, it is true that Eltharion stabilised the waystone of Tor Yvresse by luck. It's in the text after all.



    Let's remember that 20.000 Goblins invaded Yvresse, the weakest out of the Ten Kingdoms when it was at its weakest because Eltharion was far away with its army. Goblins fought against militia.

    I agree, Emperor Dragons as LH would be a great addition. But let's not forget about greater potential of Imrik and Caledor. His is a martial kingdom with the best smiths. It's he who carries the Dragontamer's will.

    You are right again. There are no special Yvresse troops. Mistwalkers of Yvresse, Spire Guard of Tor Yvresse and Knights of Tor Gaval are RoR.

    As for Caledor mechanics, there is potential for much more than just awesome dragon units.

    The Dragonrealm UI:
    1. Vaul's Anvil - Forge your own gear the way you want. Unlock upgrades for your units. Quest: find Hotek. Reward: powerful item paid with blind smith's life. FLC: Lore of Metal mage represented by Priest of Vaul
    2. Shrine of Addaioth - Pay tribute and the Bringer of Wrath and Fire shall spell doom for your enemies, on both campaign and battle map: earthquakes and raging volcanoes. Quest: investigate rumours about fires plaguing villages. Reward: named and little bit crazy Dragon Mage. Put this pyromaniac to good use.
    3. Dragon Cavern - Commune with the dragons, gain their respect and you might very well taste a sliver of their hoard. Obtain named dragons. Quest: reach high reputation with the dragons. Reward: dragons tell you where you can find the most powerful among them. Quest: find three Emperor Dragons and persuade them to join you. Reward: three named Legendary Hero dragons with their own unique personalities: Doomfire Dragon, Ice Dragon and Great Storm Dragon. FLC: Dragon Mages

    Martial Glory:
    Caledor does not play politics. Instead of influence Imrik's faction has glory. You gain it by winning battles, gaining chevrons and defeating factions. Elves from the other kingdoms flock to your banner. Spend glory on kingdom themed reinforcements and lords/heroes.

    The Dragontamer:
    Imrik campaign's main objective is to assist Caledor Dragontamer in reinforcing the Vortex. Loosely based on Sons of Ellyrion plot, you travel around and seek worthy candidates to join the Dragontamer in the Great Vortex. Asur, Asrai or Druchii, it doesn't matter. Rich, mythic story about the Elves and their struggles in the world on the verge of destruction.


    Boreal said:

    Boreal said:

    I thought waystone defense had more to do with Imrik. Didn’t he attack a group of BM attempting to destroy important waystones?

    Imrik had one minor battle for them, no matter how much Maedrethnir trys to spin it.
    Eltharion has a major story round them, he is already 8th edition. And the lord packs tend to include 8th edition lords
    Minor or not, Imrik went out of his way to protect them. Also he is deeply connected to the waystones via Vortex: the Dragontamer.

    Eltharion does have them present in his story. He luckily stabilised one in life or death situation and then asked Belannaer to repair the rest of them. He never intentionally went on a journey to preserve them.

    Imrik too is 8ed LL.
    Imrik isn't in the 8th edition army book.
    Eltharion stabilized one which was on the verge of failing and it profoundly changed him.
    He then helped repair the rest for a good chunk of his reign.
    But he is 8ed LL.
    Sure it did but that's all.
    No, it was Belannaer who repaired the waystones.
    He wasn't in the army book so no he's not.
    And CA prioritises the army book.
    Not exclusively. Vampire Counts got Ghorst (not in any army book, I believe he had rules in a supplement though?) before they got Isabella, who is. Lizardmen got Nakai, who isn't detailed in any army book, over Tetto'ekko, who is in the 7th and 8th edition books.

    The majority of named characters are from 8E army books simply because the majority of important named characters in WFB have their stats in 8E army books, but the claim that CA takes what's in the 8E army book before anything else is easily falsified by observation.
    Eltharion is mentioned more in 6th edition even than Imrik, (Having 2 full pages of his story) despite not having rules (understandably since he trains to become a Swordmaster at the time) he could be fielded still and is mentioned in Guardians of Light page in codex as an option to make army anyway along with Alarielle and Korhil



    Eltharion is present much more than other elven lords in Armybooks, and he should definitly be present even above some other existing characters let alone Imrik.

    Rules for characters in Armybooks

    4th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Eltharion
    5th edition: Alith Anar, Eltharion, Alarielle, Belannaer, Korhil, Caradryan,Tyrion,Teclis , Imrik
    6th edition: Tyrion,Teclis,Imrik
    7th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Alith Anar, Eltharion, Korhil, Caradryan
    8th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Alith Anar, Eltharion, Korhil, Caradryan, Alarielle

    In the start Ca gave advantage on basing roster and characters on 8th edition (WH1), later they decided to base dlc's on rivalry, In 8th Asur armybook Eltharion exists not Imrik, but also in Greenskins book Grom is present too, it is very likely possibility for that rivalry pack and divergence from their concept isn't needed.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,924
    Boreal said:

    Boreal said:

    Boreal said:

    Eltharion is far less generic than Imrik. He is the hero of current age, with important involvement in current historical events on three levels ( Raid of Naggaroth that starts new cycle of Civil War, Battle against Waaagh Grom, Waystone crisis)

    Generic? Lots of people said Malus was very generic, I don’t think a person's subjective view on whether it’s generic or not holds much weight with CA. He is a hero of the current age? Do you think that makes a difference to CA? The last FLC was about 500 years out of date. You can equally list issues with Imrik, he can bring in a workshop/crafting mechanic; he can wake unique dragons; he is s traveller so could end up anywhere on the map etc.

    There are objective factors that make character either generic or unique, their appearance, story, abilities ect.
    Eltharion has enough of those to make him distinguish himself in roster of High Elven heroes.

    Malus indeed has some generic traits, mostly in his characterization and appearance, magical soul stealing sword. Most unique of his traits seem to be Tza'Rkan and hatred as guiding force, though he mostly has generic dark elf attributes unlike Malekith.

    i believe Ca based game on 8th edition of Warhammer and set game some time after Karl Franz being crowned as emperor which they stated officially.

    With their choice of characters included also so they have much more related to 8th timeline than games like Warhammer Online ( which had invented Tchar'zanek leading Chaos Invasion) , Mark of Chaos ( One year after Asavar Kul invasion, Chaosbane ( Set during regin of Magnus the Pious) or Vermintide ( Set during the End Times)

    One example of FLC lord can't negate the fact that most of other dlc/flc packs or base game releases followed lords existing in 8th edition or supplements where there weren't updated.

    Workshop/crafting mechanic is already present with Dwarves and Tomb Kings, and I think Ca tries to make every race have it's own flavor and uniqueness, so I don't find that essential for High Elves but neither I am against it.

    Eltharion and Grom have existing rivalry something that Ca has based most of the dlc Lord packs, they are both established and unique characters, and they would add interesting dynamic to campaign maps and regions of Ulthuan and Badlands too.

    See.. I don’t agree. You list a number of factors that can be used to measure how unique a character is and you don’t give any examples. In terms of looks Eltharion has a unique mount.. Imrik has a unique mount. You can give them both a slightly different hat but they’re still going to look like High Elves.

    Do you think that FLC Lord is the only example? Are you aware of the many End Time units used? You do realise that most of the units from Norsca and VCoast weren’t 8th edition?

    Workshop/crafting mechanics appears in the most popular DLCs, do you think CA are starting to notice? When I say the HE can get a crafting mechanic do you think I meant a carbon copy of the TK version or something unique. Do you think the Ikit’s workshop is a copy of the TK crafting? It isn’t, I’m sure CA can do something unique.

    Malus and Snikch do not have a rivalry; Ikit and The Sotek scum do not have a rivalry.. etc. Rivalry does not equate to a DLC.
    THATS BECAUSE NEITHER NORSCA NOR VAMPIRE COAST HAS AN AN 8TG EDITION BOOK.
    That was kind of my point. *face palm*
    Yes and your point had no bearing on CA using 8th edition lords
    Time for a lie down in a darkened room.
    Says the guy using arguments that have nothing to do with the point.
    There’s a difference between me using invalid arguments and you not understanding them.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,924
    Boreal said:

    Draxynnic said:



    Draxynnic said:

    Besides being from beginning to the end in every High Elf Armybook he had art done as great artist such as Mark Gibbons, Paul Dainton and Magali Villeneuve.

    He wasn't in the 6E army book, while Imrik was. In 6E, his rules came in a supplement... just like Imrik in 8E.

    He was blinded by Malekith then and was training with Loremaster Belannaer with Short story "The Blade Reforged" in very 6th edition and rules came in White Dwarf supplements along with miniature for Eltharion the Blind.
    So he really was part of the edition still.
    By the same logic, Imrik is 8th edition as much as Eltharion was 6th edition.

    Eltharion didn't have rules in the 6th edition book, but was mentioned in the fluff within the book, and had rules printed (both historical and blind) in 6E supplementary material.

    Imrik didn't have rules in the 8th edition book, but was mentioned in the fluff within the book, and had rules printed in 8E supplementary material.

    The two situations are equivalent, and if you consider that being mentioned and then having rules elsewhere is enough to say Eltharion was in the 6E book, then the same is true of Imrik in 8E.
    Boreal said:

    Red_Dox said:

    Arsenic said:

    The more I read these threads, the more convinced I am very few want Eltharion for anything unique he brings to the table, they just want him because they think more Greenskin stuff is likely alongside him.

    You can say the same thing for the Imrik fanatics. There is nothing special about him, so every little piece of stuff will get blown out of proportian to make him sound like Superman, just to justify his measly existence.
    It's already on a Trump level of fakenews bad, as seen in this topic as well, where Eltharion is pointed out to save only one waystone by coincidence but Galactic President Superstar McAwesomeville as the real hero of the entire world, flies over to Bretonnia and does the same stuff on purpose which makes it 500% better. Instead of just a shady footnote.
    Apparently the same narrators for this fakenews story also always downplay the significance of 20.000 Goblins invading Ulthuan and nearly bringing the island and the whole world at risk, but the footnote rescue in Bretonnia that apparently was a well planned plot to save the entire universe! Becasue GW also did tell that story in 10 well written pages as the lore groundwork for the one HE character who was always around in every armybook! All hail the prince without magic, riding the flying monster. Which is totally different to that other prince without magic, riding another flying monster!

    And lets not forget all the made up and very logical units that our chad Imrik brings to the table. Emperor Dragons as hero choices and Dragons for every Lord and Hero in existence. And Demidragons to ride for the Dragon Guard special unit. And five more feral Dragon variants, because there are never enough and it really brings a lot of diversity to the roster. And some special mechanic concerning Dragons because unbuffed dragons are just wimps.
    How can Eltharion compare with that by just bringing the rest of the armybook with him and maybe some special Yvresse troop, while we all know there are no special Yvresse troops anyway? Since Caledor was, is and always will be the cultural center of Ulthuan with the capital city!

    ------Red Dox
    It's rare for sarcasm to be so truthful. It reminds me of a situation from my early school days when one of my classmates said something like this 'yeah, sure, there is no bigger half'.

    It's true, Imrik of Caledor has done wonderful things, like crushing Druchii army during invasion. And yes, it is true that Eltharion stabilised the waystone of Tor Yvresse by luck. It's in the text after all.



    Let's remember that 20.000 Goblins invaded Yvresse, the weakest out of the Ten Kingdoms when it was at its weakest because Eltharion was far away with its army. Goblins fought against militia.

    I agree, Emperor Dragons as LH would be a great addition. But let's not forget about greater potential of Imrik and Caledor. His is a martial kingdom with the best smiths. It's he who carries the Dragontamer's will.

    You are right again. There are no special Yvresse troops. Mistwalkers of Yvresse, Spire Guard of Tor Yvresse and Knights of Tor Gaval are RoR.

    As for Caledor mechanics, there is potential for much more than just awesome dragon units.

    The Dragonrealm UI:
    1. Vaul's Anvil - Forge your own gear the way you want. Unlock upgrades for your units. Quest: find Hotek. Reward: powerful item paid with blind smith's life. FLC: Lore of Metal mage represented by Priest of Vaul
    2. Shrine of Addaioth - Pay tribute and the Bringer of Wrath and Fire shall spell doom for your enemies, on both campaign and battle map: earthquakes and raging volcanoes. Quest: investigate rumours about fires plaguing villages. Reward: named and little bit crazy Dragon Mage. Put this pyromaniac to good use.
    3. Dragon Cavern - Commune with the dragons, gain their respect and you might very well taste a sliver of their hoard. Obtain named dragons. Quest: reach high reputation with the dragons. Reward: dragons tell you where you can find the most powerful among them. Quest: find three Emperor Dragons and persuade them to join you. Reward: three named Legendary Hero dragons with their own unique personalities: Doomfire Dragon, Ice Dragon and Great Storm Dragon. FLC: Dragon Mages

    Martial Glory:
    Caledor does not play politics. Instead of influence Imrik's faction has glory. You gain it by winning battles, gaining chevrons and defeating factions. Elves from the other kingdoms flock to your banner. Spend glory on kingdom themed reinforcements and lords/heroes.

    The Dragontamer:
    Imrik campaign's main objective is to assist Caledor Dragontamer in reinforcing the Vortex. Loosely based on Sons of Ellyrion plot, you travel around and seek worthy candidates to join the Dragontamer in the Great Vortex. Asur, Asrai or Druchii, it doesn't matter. Rich, mythic story about the Elves and their struggles in the world on the verge of destruction.


    Boreal said:

    Boreal said:

    I thought waystone defense had more to do with Imrik. Didn’t he attack a group of BM attempting to destroy important waystones?

    Imrik had one minor battle for them, no matter how much Maedrethnir trys to spin it.
    Eltharion has a major story round them, he is already 8th edition. And the lord packs tend to include 8th edition lords
    Minor or not, Imrik went out of his way to protect them. Also he is deeply connected to the waystones via Vortex: the Dragontamer.

    Eltharion does have them present in his story. He luckily stabilised one in life or death situation and then asked Belannaer to repair the rest of them. He never intentionally went on a journey to preserve them.

    Imrik too is 8ed LL.
    Imrik isn't in the 8th edition army book.
    Eltharion stabilized one which was on the verge of failing and it profoundly changed him.
    He then helped repair the rest for a good chunk of his reign.
    But he is 8ed LL.
    Sure it did but that's all.
    No, it was Belannaer who repaired the waystones.
    He wasn't in the army book so no he's not.
    And CA prioritises the army book.
    Not exclusively. Vampire Counts got Ghorst (not in any army book, I believe he had rules in a supplement though?) before they got Isabella, who is. Lizardmen got Nakai, who isn't detailed in any army book, over Tetto'ekko, who is in the 7th and 8th edition books.

    The majority of named characters are from 8E army books simply because the majority of important named characters in WFB have their stats in 8E army books, but the claim that CA takes what's in the 8E army book before anything else is easily falsified by observation.
    Lizardmen got Nakai due to popular demand, also so all the races of Lizardmen are represented, rather than getting another skink.

    Isabella was already planned for make war not love. So getting Ghorst first is irrelevant. He also is being used instead of Manfred's Acolyte who is an 8ty edition lord.
    Grim and the grave is considered one of the worst lord packs. Also nearly everything in it was taken from the Sigmars blood campaign pack.
    All guesswork.. good. Just because a character is popular does not mean they will be added. Unless you were present at the dev meetings (99.99% sure you weren’t) you have no idea why CA implemented any character.

    If the devs come up with a good idea for Imrik then there’s no reason why he won’t be selected. The fact is the majority of us accept we do not no the mind of the CA devs and these debates are guesswork at best. You appear to be under the impression that you know CA’s mind.. I’m doubtful.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901
    Boreal said:

    Lizardmen got Nakai due to popular demand, also so all the races of Lizardmen are represented, rather than getting another skink.

    Isabella was already planned for make war not love. So getting Ghorst first is irrelevant. He also is being used instead of Manfred's Acolyte who is an 8ty edition lord.
    Grim and the grave is considered one of the worst lord packs. Also nearly everything in it was taken from the Sigmars blood campaign pack.

    And there's demand for Imrik, no? Personally, I'm seeing more demand, and more consistent demand, for both Imrik and Eltharion than for Nakai. And including Imrik would mean that one of the four most important kingdoms is represented.

    Ultimately, however you might try to explain it, the point remains: there are times when CA has other priorities than "8E army book characters first".

    Eltharion is mentioned more in 6th edition even than Imrik, (Having 2 full pages of his story) despite not having rules (understandably since he trains to become a Swordmaster at the time) he could be fielded still and is mentioned in Guardians of Light page in codex as an option to make army anyway along with Alarielle and Korhil



    Eltharion is present much more than other elven lords in Armybooks, and he should definitly be present even above some other existing characters let alone Imrik.

    Rules for characters in Armybooks

    4th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Eltharion
    5th edition: Alith Anar, Eltharion, Alarielle, Belannaer, Korhil, Caradryan,Tyrion,Teclis , Imrik
    6th edition: Tyrion,Teclis,Imrik
    7th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Alith Anar, Eltharion, Korhil, Caradryan
    8th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Alith Anar, Eltharion, Korhil, Caradryan, Alarielle

    In the start Ca gave advantage on basing roster and characters on 8th edition (WH1), later they decided to base dlc's on rivalry, In 8th Asur armybook Eltharion exists not Imrik, but also in Greenskins book Grom is present too, it is very likely possibility for that rivalry pack and divergence from their concept isn't needed.

    We've had this discussion before. Imrik doesn't need valuable army book space to give chapter and verse of his background, because he's a product of his ancestry, and his ancestry is the second most important bloodline in Ulthuan. Caledor Dragontamer. Caledor the Conqueror. Caledor the Warrior Idiot. Tethlis the Slayer. Mentheus. We know where Imrik is coming from without needing the specifics.

    You point out that excerpt - that excerpt was also followed up by Games Workshop putting rules for the relevant characters on their website (and Eltharion then got extra rules for his Blind variant). Which is equivalent to Imrik receiving multiple mentions in the 8E army book and then getting rules in an 8E supplement.

    I've noted several times that I think Eltharion v Grom is going to be the DLC because of the rivalry issue. Can we agree, though, that Imrik deserves a spot too?
  • MagicspookMagicspook Registered Users Posts: 413
    This thread gave me all kinds of incurable diseases. Thanks.

    @OP: your idea sounds pretty cool, despite never having played HE and greenskins only once, your suggestion sounds like the sort of DLC I might buy anyway just to encourage CA to keep the good stuff coming.

    @the rest of the posters: my god are you a bunch of annoying whiners who just keep repeating the same things over and over again. the thread wasn't even about Imrik vs Eltharion, it was aboit the OP and his suggestions for possible mechanics.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,924

    This thread gave me all kinds of incurable diseases. Thanks.

    @OP: your idea sounds pretty cool, despite never having played HE and greenskins only once, your suggestion sounds like the sort of DLC I might buy anyway just to encourage CA to keep the good stuff coming.

    @the rest of the posters: my god are you a bunch of annoying whiners who just keep repeating the same things over and over again. the thread wasn't even about Imrik vs Eltharion, it was aboit the OP and his suggestions for possible mechanics.


  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,035

    Arsenic said:



    Eltharion is far less generic than Imrik.

    Not in appearance. He looks like a generic High Elf Prince with slightly bigger winglets on his helmet. Whereas Imrik visually looks very different.

    Neither are phenomenally striking. As I said, a generic looking HE on a not-so-generic mount, a not-so-generic looking Lord on a generic looking mount.
    Well then High Elf Lords look like him, trying to emulate his awesomeness, considering he is older design than most of them.

    He also has fabulous helmet in contrast to Imrik looks like High elf with tiara blowing a horn.

    Eltharion also has 2 vastly different miniatures and specific appearance and behavior in stories:

    Eltharion is noted for having a voice whose edge was like 'the last whisper of life in the mouth of a corpse'. He is a slender warrior shrouded in a plain black tunic and armoured in gleaming plat davedave1124 said:

    This thread gave me all kinds of incurable diseases. Thanks.

    @OP: your idea sounds pretty cool, despite never having played HE and greenskins only once, your suggestion sounds like the sort of DLC I might buy anyway just to encourage CA to keep the good stuff coming.

    @the rest of the posters: my god are you a bunch of annoying whiners who just keep repeating the same things over and over again. the thread wasn't even about Imrik vs Eltharion, it was aboit the OP and his suggestions for possible mechanics.


    a quality meme
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • kelembribor21kelembribor21 Registered Users Posts: 210
    edited December 2019

    Arsenic said:



    Eltharion is far less generic than Imrik.

    Not in appearance. He looks like a generic High Elf Prince with slightly bigger winglets on his helmet. Whereas Imrik visually looks very different.

    Neither are phenomenally striking. As I said, a generic looking HE on a not-so-generic mount, a not-so-generic looking Lord on a generic looking mount.
    Well then High Elf Lords look like him, trying to emulate his awesomeness, considering he is older design than most of them.

    He also has fabulous helmet in contrast to Imrik looks like High elf with tiara blowing a horn.

    Eltharion also has 2 vastly different miniatures and specific appearance and behavior in stories:

    Eltharion is noted for having a voice whose edge was like 'the last whisper of life in the mouth of a corpse'. He is a slender warrior shrouded in a plain black tunic and armoured in gleaming plat davedave1124 said:

    This thread gave me all kinds of incurable diseases. Thanks.

    @OP: your idea sounds pretty cool, despite never having played HE and greenskins only once, your suggestion sounds like the sort of DLC I might buy anyway just to encourage CA to keep the good stuff coming.

    @the rest of the posters: my god are you a bunch of annoying whiners who just keep repeating the same things over and over again. the thread wasn't even about Imrik vs Eltharion, it was aboit the OP and his suggestions for possible mechanics.


    a quality meme
    You look just as whiny on images as I imagined you.
    When resorting to a memes - the lowest form of humor - to prove a point, we can be sure we are dealing with very bright people.
  • kelembribor21kelembribor21 Registered Users Posts: 210
    Draxynnic said:

    Boreal said:

    Lizardmen got Nakai due to popular demand, also so all the races of Lizardmen are represented, rather than getting another skink.

    Isabella was already planned for make war not love. So getting Ghorst first is irrelevant. He also is being used instead of Manfred's Acolyte who is an 8ty edition lord.
    Grim and the grave is considered one of the worst lord packs. Also nearly everything in it was taken from the Sigmars blood campaign pack.

    And there's demand for Imrik, no? Personally, I'm seeing more demand, and more consistent demand, for both Imrik and Eltharion than for Nakai. And including Imrik would mean that one of the four most important kingdoms is represented.

    Ultimately, however you might try to explain it, the point remains: there are times when CA has other priorities than "8E army book characters first".

    Eltharion is mentioned more in 6th edition even than Imrik, (Having 2 full pages of his story) despite not having rules (understandably since he trains to become a Swordmaster at the time) he could be fielded still and is mentioned in Guardians of Light page in codex as an option to make army anyway along with Alarielle and Korhil



    Eltharion is present much more than other elven lords in Armybooks, and he should definitly be present even above some other existing characters let alone Imrik.

    Rules for characters in Armybooks

    4th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Eltharion
    5th edition: Alith Anar, Eltharion, Alarielle, Belannaer, Korhil, Caradryan,Tyrion,Teclis , Imrik
    6th edition: Tyrion,Teclis,Imrik
    7th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Alith Anar, Eltharion, Korhil, Caradryan
    8th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Alith Anar, Eltharion, Korhil, Caradryan, Alarielle

    In the start Ca gave advantage on basing roster and characters on 8th edition (WH1), later they decided to base dlc's on rivalry, In 8th Asur armybook Eltharion exists not Imrik, but also in Greenskins book Grom is present too, it is very likely possibility for that rivalry pack and divergence from their concept isn't needed.

    We've had this discussion before. Imrik doesn't need valuable army book space to give chapter and verse of his background, because he's a product of his ancestry, and his ancestry is the second most important bloodline in Ulthuan. Caledor Dragontamer. Caledor the Conqueror. Caledor the Warrior Idiot. Tethlis the Slayer. Mentheus. We know where Imrik is coming from without needing the specifics.

    You point out that excerpt - that excerpt was also followed up by Games Workshop putting rules for the relevant characters on their website (and Eltharion then got extra rules for his Blind variant). Which is equivalent to Imrik receiving multiple mentions in the 8E army book and then getting rules in an 8E supplement.

    I've noted several times that I think Eltharion v Grom is going to be the DLC because of the rivalry issue. Can we agree, though, that Imrik deserves a spot too?
    In this excerpt is explicitly stated for those heroes:

    "This page lists a few of most famed of these mighty heroes and you should feel free to expand on what's here, work out the game stats and so on if you want to include them in your games. The following pages include full details for three characters: Tyrion,Teclis and Imrik. You may use these characters in your games of Warhammer by paying the points as normal."

    Basically Imrik was only once in 6th edition included in armybook when Eltharion wasn't (because he was wounded and blind and even then there was option for him being played in Tabletop when agreed by players).

    Kingdom of Caledor is important and has many larger than life historical characters, though some like Dragontamer and Aenarion transcend their regional association and represent Elvenkind. But Imrik on his own isn't very prominent, accomplished or fleshed out character compared to others in the roster or even his Caledorian ancestors, biggest thing going for him is Dragons and crowd who has hots for it.


    Do you honestly see me typing against Imrik or mentioned him in thread which is named:

    "POTENTIAL MECHANICS FOR ELTHARION, WAYSTONE RESTORATION, KINGDOM STANDING, AND GREENSKINS AGGRESSION"

    Until people started posting slander, false or biased information I felt no need to post but, when seeing people spamming and number of his supporters rising circulating false information like in these examples:

    Eltharion couldn't restore the waystones himself and asked Belannaer to do it. This mechanic would fit rework for Teclis's faction. And between Eltharion and Imrik, it was the latter who went out of his way to protect the waystones. Also it doesn't make sense for many menhirs to be destroyed and in need of restoration. If that was to be the case then Ulthuan would sink and Chaos ravage the world. And why would Yvressian Princeling christen the waystones in the name of one of the Ten Kingdoms? 'In the name of Caledor, from this day forward you shall be known as Rocky.'


    I thought waystone defense had more to do with Imrik. Didn’t he attack a group of BM attempting to destroy important waystones?

    The more I read these threads, the more convinced I am very few want Eltharion for anything unique he brings to the table, they just want him because they think more Greenskin stuff is likely alongside him


    I disagree strongly with all those claims and behavior of some but still I am not against him getting a spot if it is well made inclusion, but not on the cost of excluding Eltharion regardless on any other factor.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,641


    Draxynnic said:

    Boreal said:

    Lizardmen got Nakai due to popular demand, also so all the races of Lizardmen are represented, rather than getting another skink.

    Isabella was already planned for make war not love. So getting Ghorst first is irrelevant. He also is being used instead of Manfred's Acolyte who is an 8ty edition lord.
    Grim and the grave is considered one of the worst lord packs. Also nearly everything in it was taken from the Sigmars blood campaign pack.

    And there's demand for Imrik, no? Personally, I'm seeing more demand, and more consistent demand, for both Imrik and Eltharion than for Nakai. And including Imrik would mean that one of the four most important kingdoms is represented.

    Ultimately, however you might try to explain it, the point remains: there are times when CA has other priorities than "8E army book characters first".

    Eltharion is mentioned more in 6th edition even than Imrik, (Having 2 full pages of his story) despite not having rules (understandably since he trains to become a Swordmaster at the time) he could be fielded still and is mentioned in Guardians of Light page in codex as an option to make army anyway along with Alarielle and Korhil



    Eltharion is present much more than other elven lords in Armybooks, and he should definitly be present even above some other existing characters let alone Imrik.

    Rules for characters in Armybooks

    4th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Eltharion
    5th edition: Alith Anar, Eltharion, Alarielle, Belannaer, Korhil, Caradryan,Tyrion,Teclis , Imrik
    6th edition: Tyrion,Teclis,Imrik
    7th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Alith Anar, Eltharion, Korhil, Caradryan
    8th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Alith Anar, Eltharion, Korhil, Caradryan, Alarielle

    In the start Ca gave advantage on basing roster and characters on 8th edition (WH1), later they decided to base dlc's on rivalry, In 8th Asur armybook Eltharion exists not Imrik, but also in Greenskins book Grom is present too, it is very likely possibility for that rivalry pack and divergence from their concept isn't needed.

    We've had this discussion before. Imrik doesn't need valuable army book space to give chapter and verse of his background, because he's a product of his ancestry, and his ancestry is the second most important bloodline in Ulthuan. Caledor Dragontamer. Caledor the Conqueror. Caledor the Warrior Idiot. Tethlis the Slayer. Mentheus. We know where Imrik is coming from without needing the specifics.

    You point out that excerpt - that excerpt was also followed up by Games Workshop putting rules for the relevant characters on their website (and Eltharion then got extra rules for his Blind variant). Which is equivalent to Imrik receiving multiple mentions in the 8E army book and then getting rules in an 8E supplement.

    I've noted several times that I think Eltharion v Grom is going to be the DLC because of the rivalry issue. Can we agree, though, that Imrik deserves a spot too?
    In this excerpt is explicitly stated for those heroes:

    "This page lists a few of most famed of these mighty heroes and you should feel free to expand on what's here, work out the game stats and so on if you want to include them in your games. The following pages include full details for three characters: Tyrion,Teclis and Imrik. You may use these characters in your games of Warhammer by paying the points as normal."

    Basically Imrik was only once in 6th edition included in armybook when Eltharion wasn't (because he was wounded and blind and even then there was option for him being played in Tabletop when agreed by players).

    Kingdom of Caledor is important and has many larger than life historical characters, though some like Dragontamer and Aenarion transcend their regional association and represent Elvenkind. But Imrik on his own isn't very prominent, accomplished or fleshed out character compared to others in the roster or even his Caledorian ancestors, biggest thing going for him is Dragons and crowd who has hots for it.


    Do you honestly see me typing against Imrik or mentioned him in thread which is named:

    "POTENTIAL MECHANICS FOR ELTHARION, WAYSTONE RESTORATION, KINGDOM STANDING, AND GREENSKINS AGGRESSION"

    Until people started posting slander, false or biased information I felt no need to post but, when seeing people spamming and number of his supporters rising circulating false information like in these examples:

    Eltharion couldn't restore the waystones himself and asked Belannaer to do it. This mechanic would fit rework for Teclis's faction. And between Eltharion and Imrik, it was the latter who went out of his way to protect the waystones. Also it doesn't make sense for many menhirs to be destroyed and in need of restoration. If that was to be the case then Ulthuan would sink and Chaos ravage the world. And why would Yvressian Princeling christen the waystones in the name of one of the Ten Kingdoms? 'In the name of Caledor, from this day forward you shall be known as Rocky.'


    I thought waystone defense had more to do with Imrik. Didn’t he attack a group of BM attempting to destroy important waystones?

    The more I read these threads, the more convinced I am very few want Eltharion for anything unique he brings to the table, they just want him because they think more Greenskin stuff is likely alongside him


    I disagree strongly with all those claims and behavior of some but still I am not against him getting a spot if it is well made inclusion, but not on the cost of excluding Eltharion regardless on any other factor.
    I suggest to read novels. Imrik is very prominent, accomplished and fleshed out character. Even comparing to his Caledorian ancestors.

    There is nothing false about what I have said. Eltharion couldn't restore the waystones himself and needed Belannaer for the task. It is also Imrik who has greater connection with menhirs thanks to his ancestor's world saving legacy. And it was him who went to war to protect them.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
    ... .... .... --··-- -. --- - . .- .-. ... ·-·-·- --- -. .-.. -.-- -.. .-. . .- -- ... -. --- .-- ·-·-·-

  • kelembribor21kelembribor21 Registered Users Posts: 210


    Draxynnic said:

    Boreal said:

    Lizardmen got Nakai due to popular demand, also so all the races of Lizardmen are represented, rather than getting another skink.

    Isabella was already planned for make war not love. So getting Ghorst first is irrelevant. He also is being used instead of Manfred's Acolyte who is an 8ty edition lord.
    Grim and the grave is considered one of the worst lord packs. Also nearly everything in it was taken from the Sigmars blood campaign pack.

    And there's demand for Imrik, no? Personally, I'm seeing more demand, and more consistent demand, for both Imrik and Eltharion than for Nakai. And including Imrik would mean that one of the four most important kingdoms is represented.

    Ultimately, however you might try to explain it, the point remains: there are times when CA has other priorities than "8E army book characters first".

    Eltharion is mentioned more in 6th edition even than Imrik, (Having 2 full pages of his story) despite not having rules (understandably since he trains to become a Swordmaster at the time) he could be fielded still and is mentioned in Guardians of Light page in codex as an option to make army anyway along with Alarielle and Korhil



    Eltharion is present much more than other elven lords in Armybooks, and he should definitly be present even above some other existing characters let alone Imrik.

    Rules for characters in Armybooks

    4th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Eltharion
    5th edition: Alith Anar, Eltharion, Alarielle, Belannaer, Korhil, Caradryan,Tyrion,Teclis , Imrik
    6th edition: Tyrion,Teclis,Imrik
    7th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Alith Anar, Eltharion, Korhil, Caradryan
    8th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Alith Anar, Eltharion, Korhil, Caradryan, Alarielle

    In the start Ca gave advantage on basing roster and characters on 8th edition (WH1), later they decided to base dlc's on rivalry, In 8th Asur armybook Eltharion exists not Imrik, but also in Greenskins book Grom is present too, it is very likely possibility for that rivalry pack and divergence from their concept isn't needed.

    We've had this discussion before. Imrik doesn't need valuable army book space to give chapter and verse of his background, because he's a product of his ancestry, and his ancestry is the second most important bloodline in Ulthuan. Caledor Dragontamer. Caledor the Conqueror. Caledor the Warrior Idiot. Tethlis the Slayer. Mentheus. We know where Imrik is coming from without needing the specifics.

    You point out that excerpt - that excerpt was also followed up by Games Workshop putting rules for the relevant characters on their website (and Eltharion then got extra rules for his Blind variant). Which is equivalent to Imrik receiving multiple mentions in the 8E army book and then getting rules in an 8E supplement.

    I've noted several times that I think Eltharion v Grom is going to be the DLC because of the rivalry issue. Can we agree, though, that Imrik deserves a spot too?
    In this excerpt is explicitly stated for those heroes:

    "This page lists a few of most famed of these mighty heroes and you should feel free to expand on what's here, work out the game stats and so on if you want to include them in your games. The following pages include full details for three characters: Tyrion,Teclis and Imrik. You may use these characters in your games of Warhammer by paying the points as normal."

    Basically Imrik was only once in 6th edition included in armybook when Eltharion wasn't (because he was wounded and blind and even then there was option for him being played in Tabletop when agreed by players).

    Kingdom of Caledor is important and has many larger than life historical characters, though some like Dragontamer and Aenarion transcend their regional association and represent Elvenkind. But Imrik on his own isn't very prominent, accomplished or fleshed out character compared to others in the roster or even his Caledorian ancestors, biggest thing going for him is Dragons and crowd who has hots for it.


    Do you honestly see me typing against Imrik or mentioned him in thread which is named:

    "POTENTIAL MECHANICS FOR ELTHARION, WAYSTONE RESTORATION, KINGDOM STANDING, AND GREENSKINS AGGRESSION"

    Until people started posting slander, false or biased information I felt no need to post but, when seeing people spamming and number of his supporters rising circulating false information like in these examples:

    Eltharion couldn't restore the waystones himself and asked Belannaer to do it. This mechanic would fit rework for Teclis's faction. And between Eltharion and Imrik, it was the latter who went out of his way to protect the waystones. Also it doesn't make sense for many menhirs to be destroyed and in need of restoration. If that was to be the case then Ulthuan would sink and Chaos ravage the world. And why would Yvressian Princeling christen the waystones in the name of one of the Ten Kingdoms? 'In the name of Caledor, from this day forward you shall be known as Rocky.'


    I thought waystone defense had more to do with Imrik. Didn’t he attack a group of BM attempting to destroy important waystones?

    The more I read these threads, the more convinced I am very few want Eltharion for anything unique he brings to the table, they just want him because they think more Greenskin stuff is likely alongside him


    I disagree strongly with all those claims and behavior of some but still I am not against him getting a spot if it is well made inclusion, but not on the cost of excluding Eltharion regardless on any other factor.
    I suggest to read novels. Imrik is very prominent, accomplished and fleshed out character. Even comparing to his Caledorian ancestors.

    There is nothing false about what I have said. Eltharion couldn't restore the waystones himself and needed Belannaer for the task. It is also Imrik who has greater connection with menhirs thanks to his ancestor's world saving legacy. And it was him who went to war to protect them.
    It is decidedly false Eltharion was only one who survived dealing with watchstone of Tor Yvresse in the Warden's Tower which Orcs destabilized.
    Later in his book description is stated he is sent on a mission to stabilize them throughout Yvresse asking help of Belannaer. ( which could work as a mechanic in many different ways)

    Imrik on the other hand is only one in long line of rulers of Caledor , and whole bunch of them except for Dragontamer weren't mentioned in "events connected with mehirs", why would he be any different.

    Siege of Couronne which says "High Elves (plural as an Race not one elf) only concern was sanctity of the waystones, doesn't give Imrik any more connection to that potential mechanic, but also gives same emphasis on Imriks competition with KIng Charlen about the kill-count and Imrik never forigiving him for stealing good kills.

    Insist of giving him "catch a dragon" or "Vaul's forge" mechanic, but don't falsify importance in lore.

    Novels are follow up material to army-books with varied quality.
    Did Ca based game on 8th game edition or novels? How many great characters or faction leaders present in game , even don't have a novel.


  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,924

    Arsenic said:



    Eltharion is far less generic than Imrik.

    Not in appearance. He looks like a generic High Elf Prince with slightly bigger winglets on his helmet. Whereas Imrik visually looks very different.

    Neither are phenomenally striking. As I said, a generic looking HE on a not-so-generic mount, a not-so-generic looking Lord on a generic looking mount.
    Well then High Elf Lords look like him, trying to emulate his awesomeness, considering he is older design than most of them.

    He also has fabulous helmet in contrast to Imrik looks like High elf with tiara blowing a horn.

    Eltharion also has 2 vastly different miniatures and specific appearance and behavior in stories:

    Eltharion is noted for having a voice whose edge was like 'the last whisper of life in the mouth of a corpse'. He is a slender warrior shrouded in a plain black tunic and armoured in gleaming plat davedave1124 said:

    This thread gave me all kinds of incurable diseases. Thanks.

    @OP: your idea sounds pretty cool, despite never having played HE and greenskins only once, your suggestion sounds like the sort of DLC I might buy anyway just to encourage CA to keep the good stuff coming.

    @the rest of the posters: my god are you a bunch of annoying whiners who just keep repeating the same things over and over again. the thread wasn't even about Imrik vs Eltharion, it was aboit the OP and his suggestions for possible mechanics.


    a quality meme
    I love the fact that you got the blame 😏 - sorry dude
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,924

    Arsenic said:



    Eltharion is far less generic than Imrik.

    Not in appearance. He looks like a generic High Elf Prince with slightly bigger winglets on his helmet. Whereas Imrik visually looks very different.

    Neither are phenomenally striking. As I said, a generic looking HE on a not-so-generic mount, a not-so-generic looking Lord on a generic looking mount.
    Well then High Elf Lords look like him, trying to emulate his awesomeness, considering he is older design than most of them.

    He also has fabulous helmet in contrast to Imrik looks like High elf with tiara blowing a horn.

    Eltharion also has 2 vastly different miniatures and specific appearance and behavior in stories:

    Eltharion is noted for having a voice whose edge was like 'the last whisper of life in the mouth of a corpse'. He is a slender warrior shrouded in a plain black tunic and armoured in gleaming plat davedave1124 said:

    This thread gave me all kinds of incurable diseases. Thanks.

    @OP: your idea sounds pretty cool, despite never having played HE and greenskins only once, your suggestion sounds like the sort of DLC I might buy anyway just to encourage CA to keep the good stuff coming.

    @the rest of the posters: my god are you a bunch of annoying whiners who just keep repeating the same things over and over again. the thread wasn't even about Imrik vs Eltharion, it was aboit the OP and his suggestions for possible mechanics.


    a quality meme
    You look just as whiny on images as I imagined you.
    When resorting to a memes - the lowest form of humor - to prove a point, we can be sure we are dealing with very bright people.
    The meme wasn’t about evidence, it was used as a tool to inform people to take themselves less seriously.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,641


    Draxynnic said:

    Boreal said:

    Lizardmen got Nakai due to popular demand, also so all the races of Lizardmen are represented, rather than getting another skink.

    Isabella was already planned for make war not love. So getting Ghorst first is irrelevant. He also is being used instead of Manfred's Acolyte who is an 8ty edition lord.
    Grim and the grave is considered one of the worst lord packs. Also nearly everything in it was taken from the Sigmars blood campaign pack.

    And there's demand for Imrik, no? Personally, I'm seeing more demand, and more consistent demand, for both Imrik and Eltharion than for Nakai. And including Imrik would mean that one of the four most important kingdoms is represented.

    Ultimately, however you might try to explain it, the point remains: there are times when CA has other priorities than "8E army book characters first".

    Eltharion is mentioned more in 6th edition even than Imrik, (Having 2 full pages of his story) despite not having rules (understandably since he trains to become a Swordmaster at the time) he could be fielded still and is mentioned in Guardians of Light page in codex as an option to make army anyway along with Alarielle and Korhil



    Eltharion is present much more than other elven lords in Armybooks, and he should definitly be present even above some other existing characters let alone Imrik.

    Rules for characters in Armybooks

    4th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Eltharion
    5th edition: Alith Anar, Eltharion, Alarielle, Belannaer, Korhil, Caradryan,Tyrion,Teclis , Imrik
    6th edition: Tyrion,Teclis,Imrik
    7th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Alith Anar, Eltharion, Korhil, Caradryan
    8th edition: Tyrion, Teclis, Alith Anar, Eltharion, Korhil, Caradryan, Alarielle

    In the start Ca gave advantage on basing roster and characters on 8th edition (WH1), later they decided to base dlc's on rivalry, In 8th Asur armybook Eltharion exists not Imrik, but also in Greenskins book Grom is present too, it is very likely possibility for that rivalry pack and divergence from their concept isn't needed.

    We've had this discussion before. Imrik doesn't need valuable army book space to give chapter and verse of his background, because he's a product of his ancestry, and his ancestry is the second most important bloodline in Ulthuan. Caledor Dragontamer. Caledor the Conqueror. Caledor the Warrior Idiot. Tethlis the Slayer. Mentheus. We know where Imrik is coming from without needing the specifics.

    You point out that excerpt - that excerpt was also followed up by Games Workshop putting rules for the relevant characters on their website (and Eltharion then got extra rules for his Blind variant). Which is equivalent to Imrik receiving multiple mentions in the 8E army book and then getting rules in an 8E supplement.

    I've noted several times that I think Eltharion v Grom is going to be the DLC because of the rivalry issue. Can we agree, though, that Imrik deserves a spot too?
    In this excerpt is explicitly stated for those heroes:

    "This page lists a few of most famed of these mighty heroes and you should feel free to expand on what's here, work out the game stats and so on if you want to include them in your games. The following pages include full details for three characters: Tyrion,Teclis and Imrik. You may use these characters in your games of Warhammer by paying the points as normal."

    Basically Imrik was only once in 6th edition included in armybook when Eltharion wasn't (because he was wounded and blind and even then there was option for him being played in Tabletop when agreed by players).

    Kingdom of Caledor is important and has many larger than life historical characters, though some like Dragontamer and Aenarion transcend their regional association and represent Elvenkind. But Imrik on his own isn't very prominent, accomplished or fleshed out character compared to others in the roster or even his Caledorian ancestors, biggest thing going for him is Dragons and crowd who has hots for it.


    Do you honestly see me typing against Imrik or mentioned him in thread which is named:

    "POTENTIAL MECHANICS FOR ELTHARION, WAYSTONE RESTORATION, KINGDOM STANDING, AND GREENSKINS AGGRESSION"

    Until people started posting slander, false or biased information I felt no need to post but, when seeing people spamming and number of his supporters rising circulating false information like in these examples:

    Eltharion couldn't restore the waystones himself and asked Belannaer to do it. This mechanic would fit rework for Teclis's faction. And between Eltharion and Imrik, it was the latter who went out of his way to protect the waystones. Also it doesn't make sense for many menhirs to be destroyed and in need of restoration. If that was to be the case then Ulthuan would sink and Chaos ravage the world. And why would Yvressian Princeling christen the waystones in the name of one of the Ten Kingdoms? 'In the name of Caledor, from this day forward you shall be known as Rocky.'


    I thought waystone defense had more to do with Imrik. Didn’t he attack a group of BM attempting to destroy important waystones?

    The more I read these threads, the more convinced I am very few want Eltharion for anything unique he brings to the table, they just want him because they think more Greenskin stuff is likely alongside him


    I disagree strongly with all those claims and behavior of some but still I am not against him getting a spot if it is well made inclusion, but not on the cost of excluding Eltharion regardless on any other factor.
    I suggest to read novels. Imrik is very prominent, accomplished and fleshed out character. Even comparing to his Caledorian ancestors.

    There is nothing false about what I have said. Eltharion couldn't restore the waystones himself and needed Belannaer for the task. It is also Imrik who has greater connection with menhirs thanks to his ancestor's world saving legacy. And it was him who went to war to protect them.
    It is decidedly false Eltharion was only one who survived dealing with watchstone of Tor Yvresse in the Warden's Tower which Orcs destabilized.
    Later in his book description is stated he is sent on a mission to stabilize them throughout Yvresse asking help of Belannaer. ( which could work as a mechanic in many different ways)

    Imrik on the other hand is only one in long line of rulers of Caledor , and whole bunch of them except for Dragontamer weren't mentioned in "events connected with mehirs", why would he be any different.

    Siege of Couronne which says "High Elves (plural as an Race not one elf) only concern was sanctity of the waystones, doesn't give Imrik any more connection to that potential mechanic, but also gives same emphasis on Imriks competition with KIng Charlen about the kill-count and Imrik never forigiving him for stealing good kills.

    Insist of giving him "catch a dragon" or "Vaul's forge" mechanic, but don't falsify importance in lore.

    Novels are follow up material to army-books with varied quality.
    Did Ca based game on 8th game edition or novels? How many great characters or faction leaders present in game , even don't have a novel.


    So what if he survived it? And it was Belannaer who repaired them, not Eltharion.

    Because the Great Vortex is their House's legacy.

    Imrik was leading the High Elves during Siege of Couronne.

    I don't falsify anything. Imrik is extremely important.

    Novels are as important.
    CA did base this game on 8ed lore to some degree. Great many of those great characters do appear in novels.

    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
    ... .... .... --··-- -. --- - . .- .-. ... ·-·-·- --- -. .-.. -.-- -.. .-. . .- -- ... -. --- .-- ·-·-·-

  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 19,713
    I suggest that several folks "lighten up" on comment responses, or they may not like the resulting actions, and the thread will be closed.

    Most of the chief offenders have been around for awhile so there won't be any more "heads up" warnings to anyone.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901

    This thread gave me all kinds of incurable diseases. Thanks.

    @OP: your idea sounds pretty cool, despite never having played HE and greenskins only once, your suggestion sounds like the sort of DLC I might buy anyway just to encourage CA to keep the good stuff coming.

    @the rest of the posters: my god are you a bunch of annoying whiners who just keep repeating the same things over and over again. the thread wasn't even about Imrik vs Eltharion, it was aboit the OP and his suggestions for possible mechanics.

    I did try to guide it back... *sigh*

    To throw a half-formed idea into the ring which actually is Yvresse-specific, could something be done with the Shifting Isles? Possibly some mechanic by which Eltharion can dial the danger level of the Shifting Isles up or down, making the Shifting Isles a more effective barrier at the price of having some detrimental effect on the province itself.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,035

    Arsenic said:



    Eltharion is far less generic than Imrik.

    Not in appearance. He looks like a generic High Elf Prince with slightly bigger winglets on his helmet. Whereas Imrik visually looks very different.

    Neither are phenomenally striking. As I said, a generic looking HE on a not-so-generic mount, a not-so-generic looking Lord on a generic looking mount.
    Well then High Elf Lords look like him, trying to emulate his awesomeness, considering he is older design than most of them.

    He also has fabulous helmet in contrast to Imrik looks like High elf with tiara blowing a horn.

    Eltharion also has 2 vastly different miniatures and specific appearance and behavior in stories:

    Eltharion is noted for having a voice whose edge was like 'the last whisper of life in the mouth of a corpse'. He is a slender warrior shrouded in a plain black tunic and armoured in gleaming plat davedave1124 said:

    This thread gave me all kinds of incurable diseases. Thanks.

    @OP: your idea sounds pretty cool, despite never having played HE and greenskins only once, your suggestion sounds like the sort of DLC I might buy anyway just to encourage CA to keep the good stuff coming.

    @the rest of the posters: my god are you a bunch of annoying whiners who just keep repeating the same things over and over again. the thread wasn't even about Imrik vs Eltharion, it was aboit the OP and his suggestions for possible mechanics.


    a quality meme
    I love the fact that you got the blame 😏 - sorry dude
    nah all good dude,i am rather confident i have average intelligence, i am surprised though there isn't any action by the mods.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • kelembriborkelembribor Registered Users Posts: 674
    edited December 2019


    So what if he survived it? And it was Belannaer who repaired them, not Eltharion.

    Because the Great Vortex is their House's legacy.

    Imrik was leading the High Elves during Siege of Couronne.

    I don't falsify anything. Imrik is extremely important.

    Novels are as important.
    CA did base this game on 8ed lore to some degree. Great many of those great characters do appear in novels.



    Great Vortex belongs to the World not even Ulthuan alone, it is continuation of work started by the Old Ones.

    Teclis is more linked as manifestation of Caledor the Dragontamer in current age of Warhammer, as greatest living mage and using his own sort of dragons to fight Chaos ( empowering younger race of men).

    Imrik lead the army , but he most likely didn't stabilize waystone himself, he was mostly busy in lance measuring competition with Bretonnian king, some mages have done it instead.

    Eltharion managed to stabilize a watchstone even though he isn't a masterful mage as Belannaer, but he asked for his aid because it was prudent for safety of Yvresse and people dealing with power of Chaos.
    He obviously has more connection in lore to the potential mechanic of waystones.


    Lore of armybooks should take precedence over the novels since novels are mostly based on world created in tabletop game lore.

    Novels usually expand on the lore, or detail events such as Sundering, War of the Beard, Vampire wars, Legendary Characters, some writers start with creation of their own characters who get so popular they become part of the tabletop game, though that isn't always the case.

  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901
    edited December 2019
    Novels are still an official part of the fluff, unless explicitly retconned out. Army books are simply the brief overview, the novels, where present, expand on that.

    And I've already explained why a character who's ancestors take up as much space as Imrik's do doesn't need several pages specific to him in that brief overview.

    If your argument rests on expecting people to disregard official sources, it's not a good one.

    *checks the thread title to remind myself of which topic this is*

    Can we please get back on topic rather than rehashing the same argument for the fifteen billionth time?
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 3,760
    Draxynnic said:

    This thread gave me all kinds of incurable diseases. Thanks.

    @OP: your idea sounds pretty cool, despite never having played HE and greenskins only once, your suggestion sounds like the sort of DLC I might buy anyway just to encourage CA to keep the good stuff coming.

    @the rest of the posters: my god are you a bunch of annoying whiners who just keep repeating the same things over and over again. the thread wasn't even about Imrik vs Eltharion, it was aboit the OP and his suggestions for possible mechanics.

    I did try to guide it back... *sigh*

    To throw a half-formed idea into the ring which actually is Yvresse-specific, could something be done with the Shifting Isles? Possibly some mechanic by which Eltharion can dial the danger level of the Shifting Isles up or down, making the Shifting Isles a more effective barrier at the price of having some detrimental effect on the province itself.
    That works if he starts in Yvresse, but it's a very sedentary mechanic.

    The more I think about this, the more I think it depends on just when in Eltharion's life this campaign is set. Repanse shows CA is willing to be flexible on the timeline. I see three possibilities:
    • The Lord Pack recreates the original campaign supplement from the tabletop, with Grom invading Yvresse while Eltharion is abroad
    • The Lord Pack is set after Grom's invasion has failed and Eltharion has gone abroad to seek vengeance on Greenskins; Grom has survived and is rebuilding his strength somewhere else
    • The Lord Packs is a re-match, with Eltharion starting in Yvresse and Grom invading Ulthuan for a second time
    If it's the first case I would imagine Eltharion's mechanics would be similar to the Race to Eight Peaks, as he's abroad with limited forces and has to race home to try and save Yvresse. This option also gives Ulthuan a bit more variety, with Grom starting on the island.

    The second option seems unlikely to me; there's no good hotbed of Greenskins in the Vortex map for Eltharion to start in, not unless the map is expanded to include part of the Badlands. It also loses out on Grom breaking up the Ulthuan death star.

    The third choice is possible, but of the four High Elf Legendary Lords three start in or very near Ulthuan, with only one of them in a foreign start location. Having Eltharion start in Yvresse is a bit dull in this regard, as he would quickly ally with the nearby elves to defeat Grom.

    So to my mind the first choice is the most likely. Grom's original invasion should have happened ages ago, but CA is loose with the timeline, if they want to they can say it's happening now. If that's how they go, I think Eltharion's mechanics may be some sort of hybrid between Belegar/Skarsnik/Queek's mechanics, and Malus or Wulfhart's mechanics, fighting to get home while having limited access to units and supplies.
  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,641
    edited December 2019

    So what if he survived it? And it was Belannaer who repaired them, not Eltharion.

    Because the Great Vortex is their House's legacy.

    Imrik was leading the High Elves during Siege of Couronne.

    I don't falsify anything. Imrik is extremely important.

    Novels are as important.
    CA did base this game on 8ed lore to some degree. Great many of those great characters do appear in novels.



    Great Vortex belongs to the World not even Ulthuan alone, it is continuation of work started by the Old Ones.

    Teclis is more linked as manifestation of Caledor the Dragontamer in current age of Warhammer, as greatest living mage and using his own sort of dragons to fight Chaos ( empowering younger race of men).

    Imrik lead the army , but he most likely didn't stabilize waystone himself, he was mostly busy in lance measuring competition with Bretonnian king, some mages have done it instead.

    Eltharion managed to stabilize a watchstone even though he isn't a masterful mage as Belannaer, but he asked for his aid because it was prudent for safety of Yvresse and people dealing with power of Chaos.
    He obviously has more connection in lore to the potential mechanic of waystones.


    Lore of armybooks should take precedence over the novels since novels are mostly based on world created in tabletop game lore.

    Novels usually expand on the lore, or detail events such as Sundering, War of the Beard, Vampire wars, Legendary Characters, some writers start with creation of their own characters who get so popular they become part of the tabletop game, though that isn't always the case.


    But for House Caledoran it is an intimate business.

    It was Imrik, not Teclis, who became vessel for the Dragontamer's spirit.

    He still led the army.

    Eltharion luckily managed to stabilise the watchstone in life or death situation.

    Novels are as important.
    Post edited by Maedrethnir on
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
    ... .... .... --··-- -. --- - . .- .-. ... ·-·-·- --- -. .-.. -.-- -.. .-. . .- -- ... -. --- .-- ·-·-·-

  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,035

    So what if he survived it? And it was Belannaer who repaired them, not Eltharion.

    Because the Great Vortex is their House's legacy.

    Imrik was leading the High Elves during Siege of Couronne.

    I don't falsify anything. Imrik is extremely important.

    Novels are as important.
    CA did base this game on 8ed lore to some degree. Great many of those great characters do appear in novels.



    Great Vortex belongs to the World not even Ulthuan alone, it is continuation of work started by the Old Ones.

    Teclis is more linked as manifestation of Caledor the Dragontamer in current age of Warhammer, as greatest living mage and using his own sort of dragons to fight Chaos ( empowering younger race of men).

    Imrik lead the army , but he most likely didn't stabilize waystone himself, he was mostly busy in lance measuring competition with Bretonnian king, some mages have done it instead.

    Eltharion managed to stabilize a watchstone even though he isn't a masterful mage as Belannaer, but he asked for his aid because it was prudent for safety of Yvresse and people dealing with power of Chaos.
    He obviously has more connection in lore to the potential mechanic of waystones.


    Lore of armybooks should take precedence over the novels since novels are mostly based on world created in tabletop game lore.

    Novels usually expand on the lore, or detail events such as Sundering, War of the Beard, Vampire wars, Legendary Characters, some writers start with creation of their own characters who get so popular they become part of the tabletop game, though that isn't always the case.


    did ca ever said that 8th edition takes priority? if they said so then yes. if not neither of our opinions matter, they can do asilin or Any other lord.

    they did the same with skaven
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,901

    Draxynnic said:

    This thread gave me all kinds of incurable diseases. Thanks.

    @OP: your idea sounds pretty cool, despite never having played HE and greenskins only once, your suggestion sounds like the sort of DLC I might buy anyway just to encourage CA to keep the good stuff coming.

    @the rest of the posters: my god are you a bunch of annoying whiners who just keep repeating the same things over and over again. the thread wasn't even about Imrik vs Eltharion, it was aboit the OP and his suggestions for possible mechanics.

    I did try to guide it back... *sigh*

    To throw a half-formed idea into the ring which actually is Yvresse-specific, could something be done with the Shifting Isles? Possibly some mechanic by which Eltharion can dial the danger level of the Shifting Isles up or down, making the Shifting Isles a more effective barrier at the price of having some detrimental effect on the province itself.
    That works if he starts in Yvresse, but it's a very sedentary mechanic.

    The more I think about this, the more I think it depends on just when in Eltharion's life this campaign is set. Repanse shows CA is willing to be flexible on the timeline. I see three possibilities:
    • The Lord Pack recreates the original campaign supplement from the tabletop, with Grom invading Yvresse while Eltharion is abroad
    • The Lord Pack is set after Grom's invasion has failed and Eltharion has gone abroad to seek vengeance on Greenskins; Grom has survived and is rebuilding his strength somewhere else
    • The Lord Packs is a re-match, with Eltharion starting in Yvresse and Grom invading Ulthuan for a second time
    If it's the first case I would imagine Eltharion's mechanics would be similar to the Race to Eight Peaks, as he's abroad with limited forces and has to race home to try and save Yvresse. This option also gives Ulthuan a bit more variety, with Grom starting on the island.

    The second option seems unlikely to me; there's no good hotbed of Greenskins in the Vortex map for Eltharion to start in, not unless the map is expanded to include part of the Badlands. It also loses out on Grom breaking up the Ulthuan death star.

    The third choice is possible, but of the four High Elf Legendary Lords three start in or very near Ulthuan, with only one of them in a foreign start location. Having Eltharion start in Yvresse is a bit dull in this regard, as he would quickly ally with the nearby elves to defeat Grom.

    So to my mind the first choice is the most likely. Grom's original invasion should have happened ages ago, but CA is loose with the timeline, if they want to they can say it's happening now. If that's how they go, I think Eltharion's mechanics may be some sort of hybrid between Belegar/Skarsnik/Queek's mechanics, and Malus or Wulfhart's mechanics, fighting to get home while having limited access to units and supplies.
    There's apparently an explanation for what happened with Repanse - the Lady essentially stashed her outside of time for a future purpose.

    A mechanic that only applies to Yvresse would be a bit location-specific, yes. I considered the possibility of being able to spread a similar mechanic to any coastal province, essentially being able to set a high attrition to seas adjacent to the province - that is something that could prove to be awkward to implement, though, and I don't think the Shifting Isles were something that was so quickly created. If this was to be implemented, though, it's worth noting that the High Elves themselves would not be immune to the effect.
  • kelembriborkelembribor Registered Users Posts: 674
    edited January 1


    But for House Caledoran it is an intimate business.

    It was Imrik, not Teclis, who became vessel for the Dragontamer's spirit.

    He still led the army.

    Eltharion luckily managed to stabilise the watchstone in life or death situation.

    Novels are as important.
    There are many threads that mention their original plan, since they choose it as a most updated starting point for WHFB tabletop game , and it would give sense of coherence and structure to the game. They also claimed their wish was to implement all of the I' don't recall number of the armybooks. ( probably depending on financial feasibility)

    That can also be supported by lord choices especially in vanilla games, units and design focusing on look of miniatures when present. They also said it in making of interviews videos and often have placed 8th armybooks in background when talking about it, and having the art directly from those.

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172263/tt-8th-edition-and-warhammer/p2

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/253444/future-content-of-warhammer-2


    Since it is obvious game and dlc are selling well, we see later expanding on the 8th and adding material from various supplements ( Storm of Chaos, Monstruous Arcanum, White Dwarf magazine, Dreadfleet) Bretonnia also never had official 8th armybook, but old one had rules updated by GW available to download.


    So I can't say they they won't expand it with lore based characters like Imrik, it is plausible especially if there is financial gain, popularity of dlc material (undead, dragons,ninjas, pirates...)

    When we look at 8th armybook of High Elves we can see that most of the units are from there, and even Shadow Walkers and Keepers of the Flame (which became unit for Nagarythe and Ror) other rors come mostly from Heraldry Book.



    It was luck, fate and maybe little skill in stabilizing watchtone, but he barely got alive and whatever happened there changed him. He saw some terrible things to be named Grim after it.

    Eltharion is only lord missing from 8th edition currently ,Grom is missing from 8th armybook also, they have a rivalry theme and would make nice addition.

    With that all said Eltharion is important part of High Elven lore and should have definitely place, maybe even more than some lords in the game already.

  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,641




    But for House Caledoran it is an intimate business.

    It was Imrik, not Teclis, who became vessel for the Dragontamer's spirit.

    He still led the army.

    Eltharion luckily managed to stabilise the watchstone in life or death situation.

    Novels are as important.
    There are many threads that mention their original plan, since they choose it as a most updated starting point for WHFB tabletop game , and it would give sense of coherence and structure to the game. They also claimed their wish was to implement all of the I' don't recall number of the armybooks. ( probably depending on financial feasibility)

    That can also be supported by lord choices especially in vanilla games, units and design focusing on look of miniatures when present. They also said it in making of interviews videos and often have placed 8th armybooks in background when talking about it, and having the art directly from those.

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172263/tt-8th-edition-and-warhammer/p2

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/253444/future-content-of-warhammer-2


    Since it is obvious game and dlc are selling well, we see later expanding on the 8th and adding material from various supplements ( Storm of Chaos, Monstruous Arcanum, White Dwarf magazine, Dreadfleet) Bretonnia also never had official 8th armybook, but old one had rules updated by GW available to download.


    So I can't say they they won't expand it with lore based characters like Imrik, it is plausible especially if there is financial gain, popularity of dlc material (undead, dragons,ninjas, pirates...)

    When we look at 8th armybook of High Elves we can see that most of the units are from there, and even Shadow Walkers and Keepers of the Flame (which became unit for Nagarythe and Ror) other rors come mostly from Heraldry Book.



    It was luck, fate and maybe little skill in stabilizing watchtone, but he barely got alive and whatever happened there changed him. He saw some terrible things to be named Grim after it.

    Eltharion is only lord missing from 8th edition currently ,Grom is missing from 8th armybook also, they have a rivalry theme and would make nice addition.

    With that all said Eltharion is important part of High Elven lore and should have definitely place, maybe even more than some lords in the game already.


    I don't see how it contradicts the fact that novels are as important.

    Of course,CA is using the newest models if they can, for an example Arkhan has End Times model. Placing armybooks as part of the decoration increases credibility and gives passion points.

    Imrik is 5,6 and 8ed character. The fact that he plays big roles in novels is merely a bonus.

    Daemons probably.

    Sure, they can add Eltharion, why not.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
    ... .... .... --··-- -. --- - . .- .-. ... ·-·-·- --- -. .-.. -.-- -.. .-. . .- -- ... -. --- .-- ·-·-·-

  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 4,035
    I will be satisfied if elitheron becomes flc lord.

    And imrik being the dlc lord. And he can have a updated version of dual start positions because imrik likes to seek adventure.

    It will put helf someware else in the map for a change other than current continents
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • kelembriborkelembribor Registered Users Posts: 674


    I don't see how it contradicts the fact that novels are as important.

    Of course,CA is using the newest models if they can, for an example Arkhan has End Times model. Placing armybooks as part of the decoration increases credibility and gives passion points.

    Imrik is 5,6 and 8ed character. The fact that he plays big roles in novels is merely a bonus.

    Daemons probably.

    Sure, they can add Eltharion, why not.

    Novels could be good or bad, but regardless of that for sense of rosters and transferring them to this game they are less important than lore created in Armybooks.

    They belong to extended universe, "original" material is created in lore of armybooks ,rest is addition made by contracted writers to expand the world, or it becomes so popular as when book series like Gortrek and Felix or Malus get added to them because of it.

    If Novels are so important why didn't Ca base roster and lords on them, but on tabletop army book lore.

    CA choose Arkhan End Times model for aesthetic reasons alone as it is huge improvement over his original miniature:



    If they used End Time Nagash they would give him his "Dread Abyssal" mount and not flying chariot like he has in the 8th edition of Tomb Kings armybook.



    Like they need Your permission or mine to add him.
    Regardless if they add Eltharion, Imrik, Aislinn, Belannaer, Korhil, Caradryan or Eldrya, fact remains Eltharion is important lord of High Elves, has people liking him for what he is independently of rivalry and feel he is interesting and great addition to the game.

  • MaedrethnirMaedrethnir Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,641



    I don't see how it contradicts the fact that novels are as important.

    Of course,CA is using the newest models if they can, for an example Arkhan has End Times model. Placing armybooks as part of the decoration increases credibility and gives passion points.

    Imrik is 5,6 and 8ed character. The fact that he plays big roles in novels is merely a bonus.

    Daemons probably.

    Sure, they can add Eltharion, why not.

    Novels could be good or bad, but regardless of that for sense of rosters and transferring them to this game they are less important than lore created in Armybooks.

    They belong to extended universe, "original" material is created in lore of armybooks ,rest is addition made by contracted writers to expand the world, or it becomes so popular as when book series like Gortrek and Felix or Malus get added to them because of it.

    If Novels are so important why didn't Ca base roster and lords on them, but on tabletop army book lore.

    CA choose Arkhan End Times model for aesthetic reasons alone as it is huge improvement over his original miniature:



    If they used End Time Nagash they would give him his "Dread Abyssal" mount and not flying chariot like he has in the 8th edition of Tomb Kings armybook.



    Like they need Your permission or mine to add him.
    Regardless if they add Eltharion, Imrik, Aislinn, Belannaer, Korhil, Caradryan or Eldrya, fact remains Eltharion is important lord of High Elves, has people liking him for what he is independently of rivalry and feel he is interesting and great addition to the game.
    It's the same level of importance. Armybooks are merely a synopsis.

    Sure, that's why they make books. To flesh out characters and events and in general bring more life to the universe.

    Why would they when they have armybooks and supplements full of material. Most important characters are in them.

    Aesthetic or not, the point is that they chose the newest models. He will probably get his Dread Abyssal mount when Mortarchs become playable with the inclusion of Nagash. Now they are merely a mention in game's lore.

    They need my permission and I allow it to happen.
    Some do, that's for sure.
    Drowned in stars, bloated we shine.
    ... .... .... --··-- -. --- - . .- .-. ... ·-·-·- --- -. .-.. -.-- -.. .-. . .- -- ... -. --- .-- ·-·-·-

  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,670
    @SIRUNKLYDUNK

    You're basically advocating for Eltharion to become a semi-nomadic faction with expedition mechanics similar to Wulfhart and everything else taken from Nakai, except you left out the rivalry and how this would relate to Yvresse itself.

    How would you christen a waystone and why would the HE provinces care? Technically they should all be Saphery Waystones since Eltharion needs the white tower mages to help him repair them.

    In the lore it's just the Yvresse ones which fall, so surely then the ones he repairs would be dedicated to Yvresse or aid them directly? Also, Waystones serve a functional purpose, they don't necessarily benefit one group of elves over the other. If they did, then you'd be restoring them to their rightful owner so to speak, rather than christening them to a new owner.

    Also I don't like the idea of getting arbitrarily kneecapped and having to spend my whole campaign fixing that. Low replenishment would make the campaign a slog, which you defo don't want if you're globetrotting looking for broken Waystones. Also, HE's have a rite and post battle replenishment that would negate this issue, if not completely then mostly.

    I think your hearts in the right place but I don't see it panning out like this unless they fully dedicate to the expedition which could be really cool, but I think the mechanics would have to be moved around a bit.
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