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WH3 Launch Race: Eastern Empires/Grand Cathay? (Video)

RiskafishRiskafish Registered Users Posts: 494
edited December 2019 in General Discussion
A video showing how you can have a 100% lore friendly Cathay army and all the reasons it could be a launch race.

No fan content included, well except some pictures xD

let me know what you think guys.

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Comments

  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 17,683
    The case for Cathay continues to gain momentum!
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • WyvaxWyvax Registered Users Posts: 2,206
    Pretty well though out video, while I still doubt Cathay's arrival I certainly hope to be wrong and see them in in the future.

    PS. Don't ever change your intro man. Doomdivers are the best.
    Tomes read: The Great Betrayal, Master of Dragons, Curse of the Phoenix Crown, Trollslayer, Skavenslayer, Daemonslayer, Dragonslayer, Beastslayer, Vampireslayer, Malekith, The Bloody Handed

    It's T. rex, not T-Rex, you filthy casuals.
  • B25romanB25roman Registered Users Posts: 43
    edited December 2019
    For some reason i imagine a trailer they would make and show what would look like a Three kingdoms trailer, but an arrow comes out of nowhere and shows that it is a greenskin banner, and the cathy people look outside to the hordes of monsters, daemons and the like and they prepare for war.

    Some funny trailer that would trick us and reveal Cathy for a future race.
  • Bonutz619Bonutz619 Registered Users Posts: 1,449
    Great video! Well thought out and clearly explained. I happen to agree. I think Cathay will be on our computer screens come WH3, whether they come as a core race or DLC.
  • GamgeeGamgee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,821
    Core race Cathay. I think ca will make Nippon its own faction as most of the work is done with Shogun 2 slap in some fantasy japan units ez. Besides lots of tw fans nostalgic for Shogun 2.
  • BardicInquisitionBardicInquisition Registered Users Posts: 1,102
    Riska, your efforts will be remembered.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 2,048
    good army list, thank you very much
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • talonntalonn Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 533
    Where are the anti-cathay mobs at?
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 2,048
    talonn said:

    Where are the anti-cathay mobs at?

    they will come wait for it
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 2,048
    can you do videos on hob goblin khanate, and may be other far eastern races
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • goliath55goliath55 Registered Users Posts: 649
    I used to think Cathay was impossible. But the more I think about it, they certainly could be a wildcard inclusion and part of the reason CA is taking so long to announce game 3.
  • kryndudekryndude Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 58
    If China and Japan are going to be in the game, then can we at least change the name of Nippon to something else that's not literally 'Japan?'
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 17,683
    kryndude said:

    If China and Japan are going to be in the game, then can we at least change the name of Nippon to something else that's not literally 'Japan?'

    They both are.

    There's an airline called Cathay Pacific. A name change feels kinda necessary.
    Game 3 must have variety in its core races. Ogres, Chaos Dwarfs, Kislev, and Demons of Chaos in its full iconic, glorious, undivided glory.
  • MarkerMarker Registered Users Posts: 1,111
    Great video! I hope they make it in, for a business perspective alone and because they are a interesting faction, specially the map with the great bastion and starting locations / quest battles.
  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 3,287
    talonn said:

    Where are the anti-cathay mobs at?

    I'm sorry did you mean, where are the people with common sense ?
  • AbmongAbmong Registered Users Posts: 1,345
    Bruh!!! Subbed. good dude keep it up 👍
    Total War: Warhammer IV - Cathay, Ind, Nippon, Khuresh (+ Lost Vampire Bloodlines, Hobgoblin Khanate DLC) :#
  • goliath55goliath55 Registered Users Posts: 649
    The only thing that makes me doubt them is the line from the developer blog where they state " there's a lot of fan made content out there " in the context of the limits of what they can do. I feel like they were taking aim at Cathay with this, if not Kislev too.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,938
    If they set up a major DLC once the rest have been sorted then I’ll be happy. If they add them as a core race then I’d be happy, surprised but very happy.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 5,958
    edited December 2019
    talonn said:

    Where are the anti-cathay mobs at?

    You called?
    Riskafish said:

    A video showing how you can have a 100% lore friendly Cathay army and all the reasons it could be a launch race.

    No fan content included, well except some pictures xD

    let me know what you think guys.

    How hard do you think it is to debunk your very opening statement?

    Your opening statement starts by making a "no true Scotsman" argument by saying some sources are more official than others when we already have affirmed that White Dwarf is an official source they have drawn material from. So the entire opening sophistry is not gonna work.

    Pages aregument doesn't work. Majority of what is written for Cathay on the wiki is other races lore simply copy pasted onto the page if it merely mentioned Cathay once. This isn't factual material and has done nothing than overbloat the Cathay page to make it seem comparable to other races.For instance:

    "Another name for this route is the Ivory Road, although it's not clear whether there are differences between Ricco's and Robbio's path and this one. Nevertheless, it is often said to be the only traversable way from the Old World through the hazards of the East and into the heartlands of Grand Cathay, and even then the journey is fraught with peril. The caravans that travel it are almost like nomadic towns; such is their scale that a Great Caravan can reach a full mile in length. They are heavily defended, as they have to travel through some of the most dangerous and hostile areas on the face of the world. Caravans are regularly beset by marauding wolf riders, Chaos Dwarfs, Skaven, Giants, Goblins, Ogres, Black Orcs, cave-beasts, Hobgoblins, giant scorpions and dark things that stalk the shadows in the moonlight. As a result, a caravan will typically employ whole families of Ogre mercenaries to act as caravan guards.[10e]

    The Ivory Road passes from various cities of the Old World through the Worlds Edge Mountains, past the Dwarfen hold of Karak Drazh and along Death Pass. It winds through the treacherous, haunted mountains until they pan out into the Dark Lands, where it passes to the north of the Goblin-infested Mount Grimfang and angles north-east towards the Howling Wastes. In the midst of this realm stand the gigantic standing stones known as the Sentinels. As the journey to this landmark passes through the heart of the industrial wasteland that are the Chaos Dwarf realms, only a heavily guarded caravan stands any chance of arriving in one piece. The Sentinels act as a trading post for rhinoxen, furs, provisions and other equipment necessary for a sustained trek through the mountains and a caravan will often change guard in this location before heading off on the next leg of its journey. From the Sentinels, the Ivory Road forks, with the main road continuing east, and the secondary road - the Spice Route - travelling south to the trading settlement of Pigbarter at the mouth of the polluted River Ruin. This is by far the safer route, for once a traveller has made his way past the stinking sulphur pits of the Desolation of Azgorh, he finds himself in the wild and largely deserted homelands of the Gnoblars until he reaches civilisation, or something approaching it.[10e][10f]

    The Ivory Road runs alongside one of the tributaries of the River Ruin high into the mountains. There it faces a new set of dangers, amongst them the tribes of the Ogres and their Gnoblar slaves. Bizarrely, it is the latter that pose more of a problem to the caravans: 'civilised' Ogres, and specially those under the rule of Greasus Goldtooth, have a healthy respect for the great caravans and in general will not attack them unless in direst need. Not only that, but it is easy to see an Ogre raid coming and defend accordingly. Not so with the light fingered, mean-spirited Gnoblar scrappers (often called Magpies by the caravan's staff) that seem to get just about everywhere and make off with anything they can carry for their own tiny imitation scrap-caravans. If a Great Caravan makes it through the Ogre Kingdoms, fending off predatory sabretusk packs, feral Gorgers, hungry cave bears and worse, all the while withstanding the harsh climate and sub-zero temperatures, it will eventually cross the Mountains of Mourn and emerge into the Ancient Giant Golds. The Ivory Road joins one of the mountain passes crossing through this colossal range, winding around enormous chunks of masonry that were once the foundation stones of a city of castles in the sky belonging to the Skytitans. The deserted city of megaliths is amongst the safest areas the Ivory Road passes through, as the Ancient Giant Holds are haunted by little more than shadows and movements seen out of the corner of the eye.[10f]

    Once the caravans have passed through the mountains and emerged on the other side, they rumble into the Baleful Deserts in the north-east of Cathay. Heavy metal screens are erected to protect against the hazards of this barren desert, and much of this period of the journey is spent sealed within the caravans. After all, almost nothing lives in the deserts aside from the odd Ogre pilgrim and the razor-limbed, black-carapaceed giant insects that burst from under the vitrified sand in showers of glass to attack unwary prey. Nonetheless, there are a host of other dangers the caravan faces on its way through the desert, and all are far more insidious. Sickness, cabin fever, starvation, dehydration, mutation and poisoning are all likely to occur as the caravan makes the last leg of its journey before desert finally turns to rice field and the caravan rumbles into Great Cathay. It is a testament to the vast riches that can be amassed by a successful caravan trading mission, or perhaps to plain human greed, that such a hazardous journey should be undertaken in the name of commerce.[10f] "


    this entire bit barely mentions Cathay. It details something connected to it but left completely untouched by Cathayans themselves. It is literally another race's lore just copy pasted onto that page.

    Furthermore, it mostly details other races connections to Cathay rather than Cathay itself. It is an outsiders perspective so it barely serves as much more than making Cathay an off-map mechanic rather than a race.

    Another problem is that you seem to think one off mentioned of something like Terracota Automatons is official material. It isn't, we know they apparently exist but we never see them do anything, we never see any illustrations, it's never said if they are a one-off nor do we hear of them again. Seriously, tell me what is official about them other than that they exist? the fact you need to use fanmade art while at the same time the thumbnail claims 100% official goes to show the reality of it. People are completely blind as to what constitutes official content and what is made up/extrapolated by fans.

    Araby had an entire army developed for itself in Warmaster. That served as very good foundation in developing a list that was grounded in official material and could then be expanded with the likes of Dreadfleet and similar sources. Araby didn't make it and Cathay doesn't even have an official source for any list.

    And the list from White Dwarf that is basically stated to be fan made is as accurate as any other fanmade material. It is extrapolation, that is, making content that doesn't exist, which CA has said they are trying to avoid.

    Creations of CA are nothing more than weapon variants, buffed versions of existing units or older units brought up(Foot Squires are basically Squires from 5th edition Bretonnia so you showed them there for no reason). The sole example might be Depth Guard but those guys are essentially dismounted Blood Knights with a fishy theme. Essentially, CA has done a couple units per race. Everything Cathay would need would require such treatment.

    Then you could argue Hierotitan which had no model. But it has an entire page describing its appearance and function.



    There isn't a single regiment of Cathayans that has been published in DoW. Also, DoW are available to everyone so Cathay has nothing over anyone else in that case.

    The market argument I can reverse on you. Why would CA make a Warhammer game when they can just abandon it and make a game completely based on fantasy China? Clearly it would be more profitable so CA should abandon Warhammer.

    Otherwise, the recent lack of hype for upcoming 3K DLC implies the opposite, that there's not much interest in China for Total War. Otherwise I can also argue that Chinese would only buy the actual 3 Kingdoms period stuff rather than a fantasy rendition and Warhammer Chinese fans want Warhammer for Warhammer rather than Cathay being their make or break deal.

    And the main problem is GW, not CA so whatever CA wants to do is irrelevant. Prove to me that GW would be interested because they have been isolationist in this regard for decades.

    Eshin triads use Guandao. An utterly impossible thing to do if Cathay isn't coming. Not like they originated their techniques in Cathay, right?

    Large area of the map? Most races can appear in the Darklands. Mountains of Mourne + Darklands + Northern Chaos Wastes is a large area of the map, you know and I can put every race in the game there with minor factions without breaking a sweat. As for the actual scale, that argument doesn't work as actual metrics of TWW are all over the place. They will make continents and areas as large as they need to be so this doesn't mean Cathay is necessary to make a large map.

    Yin Tuan was in the Southlands. Get your facts straight. Forgot he went around the map. Also, Marienburg has Cathayans and Nipponese in its city rather than in adjoining areas. Also, any race can be placed anywhere at this point.

    ...I think that's everything?
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 5,958
    Oh, also, saying CA can just copy over history is exactly what you would call not-official. Now, technically, that would become official by virtue of being added but as far as actual official stuff on TT goes, it isn't. Thus it is yet another part of fanmade wishes that CA would have to create from nothing.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 7,021

    kryndude said:

    If China and Japan are going to be in the game, then can we at least change the name of Nippon to something else that's not literally 'Japan?'

    They both are.

    There's an airline called Cathay Pacific. A name change feels kinda necessary.
    Could be interesting to see them pull a "Cathay is what it's called in the Old World" and come up with a local name. "Longdiguo" (Dragon Empire, if my google-translate-fu is accurate) would probably work.

    Which could then still be called "Cathay" for easier recognition in game mechanics, similar to how we get High, Dark, and Wood Elves instead of Asur, Druchii, and Asrai.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 5,958
    edited December 2019
    Actually, I probably also should've mentioned that the number of pages doesn't work as most of those pages detail something entirely different with one picture showing something and Cathay simply being mentioned in the flavour text of that picture. Or some other possibility similar to that. That's your material.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • LabriaLabria Registered Users Posts: 732
    I think Cathay will be just another Araby. Big hype, even bigger disappointment. B)
    Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne!
    Dwarfs need Slayer Lord pack: https://imgur.com/x74HxxU
  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 3,287
    Labria said:

    I think Cathay will be just another Araby. Big hype, even bigger disappointment. B)

    I get why people would want Cathay but I honestly don't understand the ridiculous hype around it. It most likely won't happen, it's a fact but there's always people to say it will happen.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,938
    Yeah I agree the Hierotitan was a based on a fan made model, whether there’s a description or not, get 10 artists they’ll all do a different job.

    It does make sense to use an already popular franchise and attempt to gain access to the Chinese market.. it’s an oven ready concept - good to go.

    One extra thing. It seems funny that game 3 is taking a long time compared to game 1 - 2. I think the original plan was mostly the daemons and evil races, this could e been planned even before the release of game 1. However, due to the feedback CA has access to, I think it’s clear that every game needs a huge and unique order race with simple mechanics.

    I certainly hope they look into it.
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 2,048

    Yeah I agree the Hierotitan was a based on a fan made model, whether there’s a description or not, get 10 artists they’ll all do a different job.

    It does make sense to use an already popular franchise and attempt to gain access to the Chinese market.. it’s an oven ready concept - good to go.

    One extra thing. It seems funny that game 3 is taking a long time compared to game 1 - 2. I think the original plan was mostly the daemons and evil races, this could e been planned even before the release of game 1. However, due to the feedback CA has access to, I think it’s clear that every game needs a huge and unique order race with simple mechanics.

    I certainly hope they look into it.

    I think you got it correct, plans change, money talks, and 3k sold well, put far east china and let us not forget india, there plenty of rich enough people in these nations who have not gotten involved in this game

    these races can be inventive to join. once joined if only 20% of them bother to collect all three games plus dlc. ca will get a huge profit
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 5,958

    Yeah I agree the Hierotitan was a based on a fan made model, whether there’s a description or not, get 10 artists they’ll all do a different job.

    Unfortunately, that doesn't work. The base equipment(staff and scales) and the general size and design(Mortuary Cult rather than the Necrotects so much more gilded than some like the Bone Giant) are dictated by the entry itself so you can't really budge from that unless you tell the artist that they can ignore bits and go on their own. The fanmade model was already quite accurate to the description and the general TK aesthetic which, unlike Cathay, we have material for in ample amount.

    There are some differences between the fan model and the game model, but the general design, equipment and aesthetic are already present in the lore.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,938

    Yeah I agree the Hierotitan was a based on a fan made model, whether there’s a description or not, get 10 artists they’ll all do a different job.

    It does make sense to use an already popular franchise and attempt to gain access to the Chinese market.. it’s an oven ready concept - good to go.

    One extra thing. It seems funny that game 3 is taking a long time compared to game 1 - 2. I think the original plan was mostly the daemons and evil races, this could e been planned even before the release of game 1. However, due to the feedback CA has access to, I think it’s clear that every game needs a huge and unique order race with simple mechanics.

    I certainly hope they look into it.

    I think you got it correct, plans change, money talks, and 3k sold well, put far east china and let us not forget india, there plenty of rich enough people in these nations who have not gotten involved in this game

    these races can be inventive to join. once joined if only 20% of them bother to collect all three games plus dlc. ca will get a huge profit
    True, I sometimes see the foil hatted club claiming the record breaking sales means little but even CA have stated they’re shocked by their success in the Chinese market. To claim this couldn’t possibly have an effect on CA is rather silly.

    I remember an original thread that showed a number of media companies spending money on showing the Chinese is a good light to gain access to the market. Mind you, this isn’t just s Chinese thing, I remember Love Actually not doing as well in the US market because it insulted the presidency. It’s just marketing 101
  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 2,048
    I get people like lord a vs lord b. I do that too.
    but denying a entire race is taking away from what makes this game special.

    and please remember after certain point all legedry lords want feel special or rare if there is too much of them
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,938
    Crossil said:

    Yeah I agree the Hierotitan was a based on a fan made model, whether there’s a description or not, get 10 artists they’ll all do a different job.

    Unfortunately, that doesn't work. The base equipment(staff and scales) and the general size and design(Mortuary Cult rather than the Necrotects so much more gilded than some like the Bone Giant) are dictated by the entry itself so you can't really budge from that unless you tell the artist that they can ignore bits and go on their own. The fanmade model was already quite accurate to the description and the general TK aesthetic which, unlike Cathay, we have material for in ample amount.

    There are some differences between the fan model and the game model, but the general design, equipment and aesthetic are already present in the lore.
    Fortunately it does work, the fact that it’s already been created gives the illusion that the design is somehow ‘obvious’. A few different artists would create something different.

    Likewise, I’m more than sure CA could create something for Cathay through official descriptions, found in officiously sources.
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