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Invocation of Nehek overcast cap

akaLuckyEyeakaLuckyEye Registered Users Posts: 86
edited January 4 in Balancing Discussions
The cap on how many units that can be effect with Invocation of Nehek when you overcast is a weird design because you have no control over what units that is effected. (max 4 units)

I don't know the reason to why CA did this change but if they feel that this is how they want it they could at least
  • add another skill point to Invocation of Nehek that takes it away
  • add it to the last skill point in Invocation of Nehek
  • or add a new skill that takes it away. Could be a skill only Necromancers & Master Necromancers get if CA really want to have this change on Invocation of Nehek. It would make Master Necromancers more value in the campaign.
EDIT 1: I get that the spell needed a balanced for multiplayer and that is fine, nothing wrong with that.
But in the campaign the spell is used and needed in different ways then to multiplayer and calming it is for "balance" in the campaign is not a strong argument because CA clearly do not want a balanced campaign. There is so many things that is unbalanced, Wind, Vortes, breath, nukes, skaven range army, range in general, Lord Kroak, etc.

I think that is fine, that is part of the Warhammer charm. But do not say that this was a balance that was needed for the campaign when the campaign is not balanced at all.

EDIT 2: Ok, I have reflected over peoples arguments and I have changed my mind. It is not a bad change. I do not believe it was a change needed for campaign but I'm fine with it.
The campaign have so many unbalanced mechanics and CA just keeps adding them (which I think is ok, nukes, Lord Kroak etc. It is fun). It was a balance for multiplayer that effected the Campaign.
Balancing for the multiplayer is fine, nothing wrong with that.
This change is necessarily not a example of this but I think that CA have ambitions to change a lot and sometimes things are overlooked because of that.
"It is said that Abhorash wept tears of blood for his victims
and from that day on he travelled to the desert to pray upon the scattered nomads
instead of his own people."
Post edited by akaLuckyEye on
«1

Comments

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,957

    The cap on how many units that can be effect with Invocation of Nehek when you overcast is a weird design because you have no control over what units that is effected. (max 4 units)

    I don't know the reason to why CA did this change but if they feel that this is how they want it they could at least

    • add another skill point to Invocation of Nehek that takes it away
    • add it to the last skill point in Invocation of Nehek
    • or add a new skill that takes it away. Could be a skill only Necromancers & Master Necromancers get if CA really want to have this change on Invocation of Nehek. It would make Master Necromancers more value in the campaign.
    You do have control. It's the 3 units closest to the cast point.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,630
    This cap this is a frikking hot mess. It shouldve always been anything more than 4 gets the heals of 4:split up and divided into 5. Heals same amount, less of more targets.
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • akaLuckyEyeakaLuckyEye Registered Users Posts: 86
    edited January 1
    eumaies said:


    You do have control. It's the 3 units closest to the cast point.

    Only if you have three units around the cast point. Are you in a choke point
    for example and have more then three units, you can't control which three units that are effected.

    "It is said that Abhorash wept tears of blood for his victims
    and from that day on he travelled to the desert to pray upon the scattered nomads
    instead of his own people."
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 5,592
    Is it really hard to cheese the AI in campaign with the new caps?
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,957

    eumaies said:


    You do have control. It's the 3 units closest to the cast point.

    Only if you have three units around the cast point. Are you in a choke point
    for example and have more then three units, you can't control which three units that are effected.

    I mean it indicates you need to use the spell with a little planning and positioning to get best results. Bottom line a cap of some kind was great for the game and this is the approach that was most practical for them to implement.
  • akaLuckyEyeakaLuckyEye Registered Users Posts: 86
    eumaies said:

    eumaies said:


    You do have control. It's the 3 units closest to the cast point.

    Only if you have three units around the cast point. Are you in a choke point
    for example and have more then three units, you can't control which three units that are effected.

    I mean it indicates you need to use the spell with a little planning and positioning to get best results. Bottom line a cap of some kind was great for the game and this is the approach that was most practical for them to implement.
    The design as it is now just make the spell clumsy to use. I can't see how this would be great change to the spell. Could you share some light on why it is so great?

    Was the spell so unbalanced that this change was needed? Units that are lumped together can be countered.
    Invocation of Nehek is hardly not that strong compare to other spells.
    The only reason that I can see is that they wanted to stop people from healing their army when you have won a battle.
    "It is said that Abhorash wept tears of blood for his victims
    and from that day on he travelled to the desert to pray upon the scattered nomads
    instead of his own people."
  • akaLuckyEyeakaLuckyEye Registered Users Posts: 86
    Green0 said:

    Is it really hard to cheese the AI in campaign with the new caps?

    That is not the point, the spell in now clumsy to use.
    Balance the game sure but making a spell more clumsy to use is a dab way to do it in my opinion.
    Was invocation of Nehek that strong?
    "It is said that Abhorash wept tears of blood for his victims
    and from that day on he travelled to the desert to pray upon the scattered nomads
    instead of his own people."
  • andrewbh2003andrewbh2003 Registered Users Posts: 62

    Green0 said:

    Is it really hard to cheese the AI in campaign with the new caps?

    That is not the point, the spell in now clumsy to use.
    Balance the game sure but making a spell more clumsy to use is a dab way to do it in my opinion.
    Was invocation of Nehek that strong?
    yes it was blobing your full stack of 20 after a fight and healing all of em

    + its the only spell in the game of the healing variety that restores models + its one of the cheapest spells in the game with a very low cooldown meaning you can easily spam it

    + since where talking campaign you get so much WOM as vc that even if you spammed all 6 spells non-stop you could still have magic left-over
  • akaLuckyEyeakaLuckyEye Registered Users Posts: 86

    Green0 said:

    Is it really hard to cheese the AI in campaign with the new caps?

    That is not the point, the spell in now clumsy to use.
    Balance the game sure but making a spell more clumsy to use is a dab way to do it in my opinion.
    Was invocation of Nehek that strong?
    yes it was blobing your full stack of 20 after a fight and healing all of em

    + its the only spell in the game of the healing variety that restores models + its one of the cheapest spells in the game with a very low cooldown meaning you can easily spam it

    + since where talking campaign you get so much WOM as vc that even if you spammed all 6 spells non-stop you could still have magic left-over
    I could use that argument to all, Wind, breath, bombardment, Vortex & a few selected spells in the game.
    Magic is insanely strong and the AI is not using it that well all the time.
    If CA did an overhaul on magic as a whole and changed so more spells have a cast limitation like summoning spells. I would agree with the change but when they single out this spell without addressing the core problem with magic it just creates a frustration for me.

    I'm not saying that IoN should be OP because other spells are OP. I'm saying do not balance individual spells, balance magic as a whole. Because that is where the core problem is.
    "It is said that Abhorash wept tears of blood for his victims
    and from that day on he travelled to the desert to pray upon the scattered nomads
    instead of his own people."
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,957

    Green0 said:

    Is it really hard to cheese the AI in campaign with the new caps?

    That is not the point, the spell in now clumsy to use.
    Balance the game sure but making a spell more clumsy to use is a dab way to do it in my opinion.
    Was invocation of Nehek that strong?
    yes it was blobing your full stack of 20 after a fight and healing all of em

    + its the only spell in the game of the healing variety that restores models + its one of the cheapest spells in the game with a very low cooldown meaning you can easily spam it

    + since where talking campaign you get so much WOM as vc that even if you spammed all 6 spells non-stop you could still have magic left-over
    I could use that argument to all, Wind, breath, bombardment, Vortex & a few selected spells in the game.
    Magic is insanely strong and the AI is not using it that well all the time.
    If CA did an overhaul on magic as a whole and changed so more spells have a cast limitation like summoning spells. I would agree with the change but when they single out this spell without addressing the core problem with magic it just creates a frustration for me.

    I'm not saying that IoN should be OP because other spells are OP. I'm saying do not balance individual spells, balance magic as a whole. Because that is where the core problem is.
    From multiplayer balancing, healing that has unlimited number of units benefiting is hugely stronger and more exploitable than any other spell type in the game.

    Now granted vs the AI bombardments/vortexes can also be hugely effective, so I see where yo'ure coming from in terms of having one less tool to exploit the bad AI.
  • akaLuckyEyeakaLuckyEye Registered Users Posts: 86
    eumaies said:

    Green0 said:

    Is it really hard to cheese the AI in campaign with the new caps?

    That is not the point, the spell in now clumsy to use.
    Balance the game sure but making a spell more clumsy to use is a dab way to do it in my opinion.
    Was invocation of Nehek that strong?
    yes it was blobing your full stack of 20 after a fight and healing all of em

    + its the only spell in the game of the healing variety that restores models + its one of the cheapest spells in the game with a very low cooldown meaning you can easily spam it

    + since where talking campaign you get so much WOM as vc that even if you spammed all 6 spells non-stop you could still have magic left-over
    I could use that argument to all, Wind, breath, bombardment, Vortex & a few selected spells in the game.
    Magic is insanely strong and the AI is not using it that well all the time.
    If CA did an overhaul on magic as a whole and changed so more spells have a cast limitation like summoning spells. I would agree with the change but when they single out this spell without addressing the core problem with magic it just creates a frustration for me.

    I'm not saying that IoN should be OP because other spells are OP. I'm saying do not balance individual spells, balance magic as a whole. Because that is where the core problem is.
    From multiplayer balancing, healing that has unlimited number of units benefiting is hugely stronger and more exploitable than any other spell type in the game.

    Now granted vs the AI bombardments/vortexes can also be hugely effective, so I see where yo'ure coming from in terms of having one less tool to exploit the bad AI.
    It is very short sighted to balance something just because it would be better for one game mode.
    I know that they can't change multiplayer without changing campaign but they could add technologies and skills so the campaign is not effected.

    Everything will be unbalanced against the AI, because it can't predict an opponent as a person would.
    Hell there is a nuke in the game that can wipe out an whole army and that is hilarious most of the times.

    But if they want to make Warhammer a more balanced game changing selector spell will not have any effect. Especially when they add crazy stuff like Nukes and Lord Kroak.

    But I completely understand that changes has to me made for multiplayer, I strongly disagree with people that **** on multiplayer every time something change.
    "It is said that Abhorash wept tears of blood for his victims
    and from that day on he travelled to the desert to pray upon the scattered nomads
    instead of his own people."
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116
    Green0 said:

    Is it really hard to cheese the AI in campaign with the new caps?

    Nope. Finaly balanced. You can easily heal cap your blob with Raise Dead spam wich triggers lore atribute every time + Curse of years and heal auras for more staying power. And it is good for MP as well. Change was very good indeed
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 5,592

    Green0 said:

    Is it really hard to cheese the AI in campaign with the new caps?

    Nope. Finaly balanced. You can easily heal cap your blob with Raise Dead spam wich triggers lore atribute every time + Curse of years and heal auras for more staying power. And it is good for MP as well. Change was very good indeed
    yep I agree. Even for campaign, the change was positive. No more cheesing the AI finally :)
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 8,342
    edited January 2
    Nehek was OP, now its still strong, max 4 is a good change, you can control which units you cast it on also, its 4 closest from the centre, simply dont blob 20 untis on top of eachother...even in a choke point its a stupid idea, all you need is like 3 and bring more in after, there is not a single case scenario where you need to blob more than 4 units even vs AI where it would be beneficial to you.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 493
    Invocation was widely considered the strongest spell in the whole game and still may be. Thank God it requires at least a little skill to use optimally now.
  • akaLuckyEyeakaLuckyEye Registered Users Posts: 86
    edited January 2
    @Witch_King @lordfadi @Green0 @ViktorTWWforum

    Vampire counts have no range units and relying on mass.
    If you are defending an siege battle and are facing an cavalry heavy army or an army with a lot of monster units like miniatures, Trolls, etc.
    You are relying on the mass to keep them from breaking through.
    All other factions have range that can stand in the back and shot down the units that are coming through the gate, an opening in the wall or shot them down before they reach the opening.
    Unless you spend blood kisses on the von Carstein bloodline you have no range. Even then you are limited.

    Invocation of Nehek are one of the strongest spells in the game yes.
    But like I have said individual spells are not the problem, the problem is that magic is incredibly strong overall in the game.

    "It is said that Abhorash wept tears of blood for his victims
    and from that day on he travelled to the desert to pray upon the scattered nomads
    instead of his own people."
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Registered Users Posts: 417
    Invocation of Nehek is still that strong.
    For Reference:

    Invocation of Nehek 6(12 OC)
    before nerfs: 1128 HP healed
    first nerf: 1080 HP healed
    now: 888 HP healed

    Earth Blood 6(11 OC)
    before nerfs: 300 (600) HP healed
    now: 300 (600) HP healed

    Apotheosis 5
    now: 550 HP

    Regrowth 13(18 OC)
    now: 1500 (2200) HP healed

    the spell is insanely mana efficient when you compare it to all of the other healing spells not to mention being the only one that revives lost unit models
  • akaLuckyEyeakaLuckyEye Registered Users Posts: 86

    Invocation of Nehek is still that strong.
    For Reference:

    Invocation of Nehek 6(12 OC)
    before nerfs: 1128 HP healed
    first nerf: 1080 HP healed
    now: 888 HP healed

    Earth Blood 6(11 OC)
    before nerfs: 300 (600) HP healed
    now: 300 (600) HP healed

    Apotheosis 5
    now: 550 HP

    Regrowth 13(18 OC)
    now: 1500 (2200) HP healed

    the spell is insanely mana efficient when you compare it to all of the other healing spells not to mention being the only one that revives lost unit models

    I'm not questioning that it is a strong spell, the campaign is not balanced, it never will be.
    From the looks of it CA do not want to balance it, they want to make a game with strong mechanics that is meme and fun and I'm fine with that.
    But the spell is now clumsy. If I'm defend a siege against three armies with a lot of cavalry or monster units I use the vampire counts strength in number so they can't just run through my line. As the spell is designed now I can't make sure the units I want to use the spell on are targeted in this scenario.

    Was it a balance that was needed for multiplayer, yes. But it is also effecting the campaign that is played in a completely different way.
    "It is said that Abhorash wept tears of blood for his victims
    and from that day on he travelled to the desert to pray upon the scattered nomads
    instead of his own people."
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Registered Users Posts: 417

    Invocation of Nehek is still that strong.
    For Reference:

    Invocation of Nehek 6(12 OC)
    before nerfs: 1128 HP healed
    first nerf: 1080 HP healed
    now: 888 HP healed

    Earth Blood 6(11 OC)
    before nerfs: 300 (600) HP healed
    now: 300 (600) HP healed

    Apotheosis 5
    now: 550 HP

    Regrowth 13(18 OC)
    now: 1500 (2200) HP healed

    the spell is insanely mana efficient when you compare it to all of the other healing spells not to mention being the only one that revives lost unit models

    I'm not questioning that it is a strong spell, the campaign is not balanced, it never will be.
    From the looks of it CA do not want to balance it, they want to make a game with strong mechanics that is meme and fun and I'm fine with that.
    But the spell is now clumsy. If I'm defend a siege against three armies with a lot of cavalry or monster units I use the vampire counts strength in number so they can't just run through my line. As the spell is designed now I can't make sure the units I want to use the spell on are targeted in this scenario.

    Was it a balance that was needed for multiplayer, yes. But it is also effecting the campaign that is played in a completely different way.
    Couldn't you just use several armies of 0 upkeep skeletons stacked on each other though? Nehek's design if it were satisfactory for campaign in the circumstance of you running full armies of fairly elite units which you'd rather not lose and have to re-recruit is very much unbalanced for multiplayer which is kind of the key issue here. Plus, vampire economy is pretty good with a mine in castle drakenhof.

    If anything I think the issue for VC campaigns lies in their tech tree and red general skills, I think this is where CA should look to tweak when there are any campaign issues in fact.
  • akaLuckyEyeakaLuckyEye Registered Users Posts: 86

    Invocation of Nehek is still that strong.
    For Reference:

    Invocation of Nehek 6(12 OC)
    before nerfs: 1128 HP healed
    first nerf: 1080 HP healed
    now: 888 HP healed

    Earth Blood 6(11 OC)
    before nerfs: 300 (600) HP healed
    now: 300 (600) HP healed

    Apotheosis 5
    now: 550 HP

    Regrowth 13(18 OC)
    now: 1500 (2200) HP healed

    the spell is insanely mana efficient when you compare it to all of the other healing spells not to mention being the only one that revives lost unit models

    I'm not questioning that it is a strong spell, the campaign is not balanced, it never will be.
    From the looks of it CA do not want to balance it, they want to make a game with strong mechanics that is meme and fun and I'm fine with that.
    But the spell is now clumsy. If I'm defend a siege against three armies with a lot of cavalry or monster units I use the vampire counts strength in number so they can't just run through my line. As the spell is designed now I can't make sure the units I want to use the spell on are targeted in this scenario.

    Was it a balance that was needed for multiplayer, yes. But it is also effecting the campaign that is played in a completely different way.
    Couldn't you just use several armies of 0 upkeep skeletons stacked on each other though? Nehek's design if it were satisfactory for campaign in the circumstance of you running full armies of fairly elite units which you'd rather not lose and have to re-recruit is very much unbalanced for multiplayer which is kind of the key issue here. Plus, vampire economy is pretty good with a mine in castle drakenhof.

    If anything I think the issue for VC campaigns lies in their tech tree and red general skills, I think this is where CA should look to tweak when there are any campaign issues in fact.
    Completely agree that it was needed for the multiplayer, no argument from me.

    Vampire counts economy are one of the strongest in the game at late game without a doubt, if you are playing as The Barrow Legion you don't get the gold mine. The upkeep on skeletons are zero but you still have to pay for supply line upkeep (I think it is called).

    I'm not saying change it back to how it was, add to the last skill point for the spell, a new skill or a technology that takes away the cap on overcast. That way the spell is still balanced for multiplayer but can be used in the campaign for tactics that is not relevant for multiplayer but are in the campaign.
    "It is said that Abhorash wept tears of blood for his victims
    and from that day on he travelled to the desert to pray upon the scattered nomads
    instead of his own people."
  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Registered Users Posts: 767
    Heal blobbing at end of battle in campaign is tedious anyway, and is the last thing you'd want to buff. In fact I'd prefer the battle ended when the last unit shattered like MP. It's bad design to force the choice between bonus HP and good player experience.
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,244

    Invocation of Nehek is still that strong.
    For Reference:

    Invocation of Nehek 6(12 OC)
    before nerfs: 1128 HP healed
    first nerf: 1080 HP healed
    now: 888 HP healed

    Earth Blood 6(11 OC)
    before nerfs: 300 (600) HP healed
    now: 300 (600) HP healed

    Apotheosis 5
    now: 550 HP

    Regrowth 13(18 OC)
    now: 1500 (2200) HP healed

    the spell is insanely mana efficient when you compare it to all of the other healing spells not to mention being the only one that revives lost unit models

    I'm not questioning that it is a strong spell, the campaign is not balanced, it never will be.
    From the looks of it CA do not want to balance it, they want to make a game with strong mechanics that is meme and fun and I'm fine with that.
    But the spell is now clumsy. If I'm defend a siege against three armies with a lot of cavalry or monster units I use the vampire counts strength in number so they can't just run through my line. As the spell is designed now I can't make sure the units I want to use the spell on are targeted in this scenario.

    Was it a balance that was needed for multiplayer, yes. But it is also effecting the campaign that is played in a completely different way.
    Couldn't you just use several armies of 0 upkeep skeletons stacked on each other though? Nehek's design if it were satisfactory for campaign in the circumstance of you running full armies of fairly elite units which you'd rather not lose and have to re-recruit is very much unbalanced for multiplayer which is kind of the key issue here. Plus, vampire economy is pretty good with a mine in castle drakenhof.

    If anything I think the issue for VC campaigns lies in their tech tree and red general skills, I think this is where CA should look to tweak when there are any campaign issues in fact.
    Completely agree that it was needed for the multiplayer, no argument from me.

    Vampire counts economy are one of the strongest in the game at late game without a doubt, if you are playing as The Barrow Legion you don't get the gold mine. The upkeep on skeletons are zero but you still have to pay for supply line upkeep (I think it is called).

    I'm not saying change it back to how it was, add to the last skill point for the spell, a new skill or a technology that takes away the cap on overcast. That way the spell is still balanced for multiplayer but can be used in the campaign for tactics that is not relevant for multiplayer but are in the campaign.
    i don't think this is needed in the SP either as it forces the playet to think a bit not just to blob everything and just cast nehek.
  • ViktorTWWforumViktorTWWforum Registered Users Posts: 1,116

    Invocation of Nehek is still that strong.
    For Reference:

    Invocation of Nehek 6(12 OC)
    before nerfs: 1128 HP healed
    first nerf: 1080 HP healed
    now: 888 HP healed

    Earth Blood 6(11 OC)
    before nerfs: 300 (600) HP healed
    now: 300 (600) HP healed

    Apotheosis 5
    now: 550 HP

    Regrowth 13(18 OC)
    now: 1500 (2200) HP healed

    the spell is insanely mana efficient when you compare it to all of the other healing spells not to mention being the only one that revives lost unit models

    I'm not questioning that it is a strong spell, the campaign is not balanced, it never will be.
    From the looks of it CA do not want to balance it, they want to make a game with strong mechanics that is meme and fun and I'm fine with that.
    But the spell is now clumsy. If I'm defend a siege against three armies with a lot of cavalry or monster units I use the vampire counts strength in number so they can't just run through my line. As the spell is designed now I can't make sure the units I want to use the spell on are targeted in this scenario.

    Was it a balance that was needed for multiplayer, yes. But it is also effecting the campaign that is played in a completely different way.
    Couldn't you just use several armies of 0 upkeep skeletons stacked on each other though? Nehek's design if it were satisfactory for campaign in the circumstance of you running full armies of fairly elite units which you'd rather not lose and have to re-recruit is very much unbalanced for multiplayer which is kind of the key issue here. Plus, vampire economy is pretty good with a mine in castle drakenhof.

    If anything I think the issue for VC campaigns lies in their tech tree and red general skills, I think this is where CA should look to tweak when there are any campaign issues in fact.
    Completely agree that it was needed for the multiplayer, no argument from me.

    Vampire counts economy are one of the strongest in the game at late game without a doubt, if you are playing as The Barrow Legion you don't get the gold mine. The upkeep on skeletons are zero but you still have to pay for supply line upkeep (I think it is called).

    I'm not saying change it back to how it was, add to the last skill point for the spell, a new skill or a technology that takes away the cap on overcast. That way the spell is still balanced for multiplayer but can be used in the campaign for tactics that is not relevant for multiplayer but are in the campaign.
    i don't think this is needed in the SP either as it forces the playet to think a bit not just to blob everything and just cast nehek.
    Ha, blob is strong as ever. Just finished long ME campaign as Vlad and this was most brutal melee faction so far., if you exclude Doomstacks with Mammoths and BE Nurgle cheese.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,919

    Heal blobbing at end of battle in campaign is tedious anyway, and is the last thing you'd want to buff. In fact I'd prefer the battle ended when the last unit shattered like MP. It's bad design to force the choice between bonus HP and good player experience.

    That phase is for you to hunt down fleeing units to improve your after-battle rewards and to try and prevent that army from surviving.

  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Registered Users Posts: 767

    Heal blobbing at end of battle in campaign is tedious anyway, and is the last thing you'd want to buff. In fact I'd prefer the battle ended when the last unit shattered like MP. It's bad design to force the choice between bonus HP and good player experience.

    That phase is for you to hunt down fleeing units to improve your after-battle rewards and to try and prevent that army from surviving.
    Chasing a defeated enemy around a map is just a different kind of busywork.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,919

    Heal blobbing at end of battle in campaign is tedious anyway, and is the last thing you'd want to buff. In fact I'd prefer the battle ended when the last unit shattered like MP. It's bad design to force the choice between bonus HP and good player experience.

    That phase is for you to hunt down fleeing units to improve your after-battle rewards and to try and prevent that army from surviving.
    Chasing a defeated enemy around a map is just a different kind of busywork.
    That's down to CA making shattered units unreasonably tough and fast.

  • ricmornricmorn Registered Users Posts: 221

    Heal blobbing at end of battle in campaign is tedious anyway, and is the last thing you'd want to buff. In fact I'd prefer the battle ended when the last unit shattered like MP. It's bad design to force the choice between bonus HP and good player experience.

    That phase is for you to hunt down fleeing units to improve your after-battle rewards and to try and prevent that army from surviving.
    Chasing a defeated enemy around a map is just a different kind of busywork.
    That's down to CA making shattered units unreasonably tough and fast.
    The only protection routing/shattered units have is their armor, damage immunity from knockdown, disorganized spacing, and the vagaries of the charge targeting system. Units chasing routers have near 100% charge bonus up-time, which is an incredible damage boost. Otherwise, unless there's an animation bug like there was (is?) with the Arachnarok which increased its speed when routing, shattered units are incredibly fragile. You only need to take a non-single entity unit down to around 10% of its strength for it to disband.

    As it pertains to the topic at hand. The cap is acceptable enough in multiplayer. Certainly better than the blob horror show it used to encourage. I could care less about it being in campaign. The true advantage of playing campaign in the Total Wars is that one can mod it however you want, and simple number changes are pretty easy. Don't like that there's a heal cap in Single Player? Just mod it out.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,919
    ricmorn said:

    Heal blobbing at end of battle in campaign is tedious anyway, and is the last thing you'd want to buff. In fact I'd prefer the battle ended when the last unit shattered like MP. It's bad design to force the choice between bonus HP and good player experience.

    That phase is for you to hunt down fleeing units to improve your after-battle rewards and to try and prevent that army from surviving.
    Chasing a defeated enemy around a map is just a different kind of busywork.
    That's down to CA making shattered units unreasonably tough and fast.
    The only protection routing/shattered units have is their armor, damage immunity from knockdown, disorganized spacing, and the vagaries of the charge targeting system. Units chasing routers have near 100% charge bonus up-time, which is an incredible damage boost. Otherwise, unless there's an animation bug like there was (is?) with the Arachnarok which increased its speed when routing, shattered units are incredibly fragile. You only need to take a non-single entity unit down to around 10% of its strength for it to disband.

    As it pertains to the topic at hand. The cap is acceptable enough in multiplayer. Certainly better than the blob horror show it used to encourage. I could care less about it being in campaign. The true advantage of playing campaign in the Total Wars is that one can mod it however you want, and simple number changes are pretty easy. Don't like that there's a heal cap in Single Player? Just mod it out.
    Nope, routing units are way tougher than they have any right to be, unless you chase them with hound type units who for some reason always score OHKOs on fleeing units. No other unit does.

  • ricmornricmorn Registered Users Posts: 221

    ricmorn said:

    Heal blobbing at end of battle in campaign is tedious anyway, and is the last thing you'd want to buff. In fact I'd prefer the battle ended when the last unit shattered like MP. It's bad design to force the choice between bonus HP and good player experience.

    That phase is for you to hunt down fleeing units to improve your after-battle rewards and to try and prevent that army from surviving.
    Chasing a defeated enemy around a map is just a different kind of busywork.
    That's down to CA making shattered units unreasonably tough and fast.
    The only protection routing/shattered units have is their armor, damage immunity from knockdown, disorganized spacing, and the vagaries of the charge targeting system. Units chasing routers have near 100% charge bonus up-time, which is an incredible damage boost. Otherwise, unless there's an animation bug like there was (is?) with the Arachnarok which increased its speed when routing, shattered units are incredibly fragile. You only need to take a non-single entity unit down to around 10% of its strength for it to disband.

    As it pertains to the topic at hand. The cap is acceptable enough in multiplayer. Certainly better than the blob horror show it used to encourage. I could care less about it being in campaign. The true advantage of playing campaign in the Total Wars is that one can mod it however you want, and simple number changes are pretty easy. Don't like that there's a heal cap in Single Player? Just mod it out.
    Nope, routing units are way tougher than they have any right to be, unless you chase them with hound type units who for some reason always score OHKOs on fleeing units. No other unit does.
    That's because hounds are fast, cause no knockdown, and have an efficient charge attack animation. So 100% charge bonus uptime with a near 100% actual attack uptime. It's less that routing units are tough, and more that chasing units are usually too slower or knockdown units too much.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,919
    ricmorn said:

    ricmorn said:

    Heal blobbing at end of battle in campaign is tedious anyway, and is the last thing you'd want to buff. In fact I'd prefer the battle ended when the last unit shattered like MP. It's bad design to force the choice between bonus HP and good player experience.

    That phase is for you to hunt down fleeing units to improve your after-battle rewards and to try and prevent that army from surviving.
    Chasing a defeated enemy around a map is just a different kind of busywork.
    That's down to CA making shattered units unreasonably tough and fast.
    The only protection routing/shattered units have is their armor, damage immunity from knockdown, disorganized spacing, and the vagaries of the charge targeting system. Units chasing routers have near 100% charge bonus up-time, which is an incredible damage boost. Otherwise, unless there's an animation bug like there was (is?) with the Arachnarok which increased its speed when routing, shattered units are incredibly fragile. You only need to take a non-single entity unit down to around 10% of its strength for it to disband.

    As it pertains to the topic at hand. The cap is acceptable enough in multiplayer. Certainly better than the blob horror show it used to encourage. I could care less about it being in campaign. The true advantage of playing campaign in the Total Wars is that one can mod it however you want, and simple number changes are pretty easy. Don't like that there's a heal cap in Single Player? Just mod it out.
    Nope, routing units are way tougher than they have any right to be, unless you chase them with hound type units who for some reason always score OHKOs on fleeing units. No other unit does.
    That's because hounds are fast, cause no knockdown, and have an efficient charge attack animation. So 100% charge bonus uptime with a near 100% actual attack uptime. It's less that routing units are tough, and more that chasing units are usually too slower or knockdown units too much.
    Well, infantry also doesn't cause knockdown, but is absolutely terrible at chasing fleeing units even if they're fast enough, even if they deal AP damage, even if they're fresh and the target exhausted (which doesn't seem to matter for fleeing units).

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