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Tamurkkhan vs Elspeth von Draken - The Perfect Crossover LP for WH3?

24

Comments

  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 9,690


    Jubal and Marcus are too similar as Lords gameplay wise

    And Elspeth is too similar to Gelt. He even has an artillery buff.
  • DraculasaurusDraculasaurus Registered Users Posts: 4,771
    SerPus said:


    Jubal and Marcus are too similar as Lords gameplay wise

    And Elspeth is too similar to Gelt. He even has an artillery buff.
    Gelt doesn't ride a dragon and uses a different lore of magic. Different enough for my book.
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 9,690


    Gelt doesn't ride a dragon

    And Jubal doesn't have a bow.

  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927

    Jubal and Marcus are too similar as Lords gameplay wise

    Huss is more usable than valten as a LH

    If a a semi ethereal death Wizard lord on a dragon doesn't seem different then no other lord will if you take a simplistic attitude

    Emil is just an arch lector
    Jubal is Marcus with gunpowder
    Helborg a tankier duelist empire general.

    Jubal as a hero offers more

    Elspeth is a dark character and offers a very different campaign than other empire characters who are more typically 'good'

    There's far more scope to her than the others.

    Don't get me wrong I want them all. But she's a very dark character with mysterious motives which Ca could do a lot with.

    Help the empire and order or go down a darker path. Let the player decide.

    She isn't ethereal. She's an amethyst wizard so they can appear ethereal but she is human as far as any other Amethyst Wizard. You're talking solely appearances but she isn't unique in any kind of role.

    Jubal is only similar to Markus in that the two use range. Jubal is character killer(that's what Longrifles are used for) but Markus is a monster killer(literally a monster slayer is his design). They aren't similar.

    Helborg is a Grandmaster, not a General. He's the knight of the roster.

    If you think they're similar then Elspeth isn't that different from Gelt who's also on a flying mount and a mage. And Karl Franz fulfills the areal monster category and would do the dragon even if he was given the imperial dragon as a mount.

    Don't give me that nonsense how a character is better as an LL or LH when CA can make characters as distinct as they want to. What, you think Markus was as elaborately developed as CA made him in that DLC?

    If she went the darker path then she wouldn't have support from the Empire, now would she? And she is specifically noted to belong to the Empire either way so no, no dark path for you.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,563
    SerPus said:


    Jubal and Marcus are too similar as Lords gameplay wise

    And Elspeth is too similar to Gelt. He even has an artillery buff.
    No she is definitely not. What you say is just wrong. Please read about her lore and then you will realise how unique she is in all terms.

    Jubal is just another Range Lord, we already have Wulfhart for that.

    Elspeth is different because of her lore and her character. She would combine the missing Nuln and Wizard theme and would also be part of the Tamurkkhan book. She could start everywhere in the world since nobody actually knows what she’s doing all the time.

    That’s a lot of potential.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • The_real_FAUST#6885The_real_FAUST#6885 Registered Users Posts: 2,069
    Is gelt semi ethereal, borderline evil, riding a dragon designed for melee and not tied to a particular course of action lore wise or thematically for the empire.

    Or could gelt be changed to buff empire magic which makes more sense for the supreme patriarch?

    Try and be slightly subjective and imaginative

  • mightygloin#2446mightygloin#2446 Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 6,122
    ArneSo said:

    Bonutz619 said:

    Middenland DLC? Absolutely.

    Ehh i’ll pass on Elspeth. Would rather have Helborg, Leitdorf and/or Valten.

    Problem is that Valten is no LL material, Leitdorf cannot leave the empire and Helborg is nothing new...
    People already said that Gor-Rok and Nakai are nothing new before their additions, yet here they are.

    I'm all for getting Helborg, Schwarzhelm, Luthor Huss etc. They are all different enough with important places.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    edited January 2020

    Jubal and Marcus are too similar as Lords gameplay wise

    Huss is more usable than valten as a LH

    If a a semi ethereal death Wizard lord on a dragon doesn't seem different then no other lord will if you take a simplistic attitude

    Emil is just an arch lector
    Jubal is Marcus with gunpowder
    Helborg a tankier duelist empire general.

    Jubal as a hero offers more

    Elspeth is a dark character and offers a very different campaign than other empire characters who are more typically 'good'

    There's far more scope to her than the others.

    Don't get me wrong I want them all. But she's a very dark character with mysterious motives which Ca could do a lot with.

    Help the empire and order or go down a darker path. Let the player decide.

    And of the units or generic lords/heroes that can be added she covers the broadest range in terms of theme, both being themed to Imperial magic (thus justifying Wizard Lords and the Hurricanum) and the city of Nuln (Engineer heroes and Longrifles) which offers a pretty solidlineup for a lord pack.
    If you ignore the fact she's more an outsider to Nuln and has as much common with Engineers as Jubal has with mages(and her connection to Colleges of Magic is also kinda weak). Even then it depends on just if CA even will make a lord choice that would require 8 different models(although it might not be that hard depending on how much they try). The list would be Engineers, Longrifles and Landships. And Nuln Ironsides if they are an actual unit rather than RoR. Imagine if they add the Hurricanum to Middenland because that one doesn't really have any obvious centerpiece units.

    Elspeth is an LH as far as her character goes, eh?
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,563

    ArneSo said:

    Bonutz619 said:

    Middenland DLC? Absolutely.

    Ehh i’ll pass on Elspeth. Would rather have Helborg, Leitdorf and/or Valten.

    Problem is that Valten is no LL material, Leitdorf cannot leave the empire and Helborg is nothing new...
    People already said that Gor-Rok and Nakai are nothing new before their additions, yet here they are.

    I'm all for getting Helborg, Schwarzhelm, Luthor Huss etc. They are all different enough with important places.
    How by Sigmar is Nakai nothing new? He’s a frickin Kroxigor Leading his own faction.

    Gor-Rok is pretty generic but also just FLC. If we ever get Valten, Helborg, Leitdorf or Huss, then as a FLC.

    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927

    Is gelt semi ethereal, borderline evil, riding a dragon designed for melee and not tied to a particular course of action lore wise or thematically for the empire.

    Or could gelt be changed to buff empire magic which makes more sense for the supreme patriarch?

    Try and be slightly subjective and imaginative

    She is neither ethereal not borderline evil nor is she the only one with a dragon nor is she as free to do whatever she wants in an Empire faction.

    And Gelt already was several of those things in the End Times.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 9,690
    Crossil said:


    She isn't ethereal.

    I guess it's a reference to that rule
    ArneSo said:


    No she is definitely not.

    She's a flying caster. And if we look at the game as a whole then she's pretty much a discount Mannfred or skinnier Azhag.
    ArneSo said:


    Jubal is just another Range Lord, we already have Wulfhart for that.

    Okay. "Elspeth is just another Caster Lord, we already have Gelt for that. "
    ArneSo said:


    She could start everywhere in the world

    How is she special in that aspect? CA can put any character anywhere, as they did multiple times.

  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,563
    Crossil said:

    Jubal and Marcus are too similar as Lords gameplay wise

    Huss is more usable than valten as a LH

    If a a semi ethereal death Wizard lord on a dragon doesn't seem different then no other lord will if you take a simplistic attitude

    Emil is just an arch lector
    Jubal is Marcus with gunpowder
    Helborg a tankier duelist empire general.

    Jubal as a hero offers more

    Elspeth is a dark character and offers a very different campaign than other empire characters who are more typically 'good'

    There's far more scope to her than the others.

    Don't get me wrong I want them all. But she's a very dark character with mysterious motives which Ca could do a lot with.

    Help the empire and order or go down a darker path. Let the player decide.

    And of the units or generic lords/heroes that can be added she covers the broadest range in terms of theme, both being themed to Imperial magic (thus justifying Wizard Lords and the Hurricanum) and the city of Nuln (Engineer heroes and Longrifles) which offers a pretty solidlineup for a lord pack.
    If you ignore the fact she's more an outsider to Nuln and has as much common with Engineers as Jubal has with mages(and her connection to Colleges of Magic is also kinda weak). Even then it depends on just if CA even will make a lord choice that would require 8 different models(although it might not be that hard depending on how much they try). The list would be Engineers, Longrifles and Landships. And Nuln Ironsides if they are an actual unit rather than RoR. Imagine if they add the Hurricanum to Middenland because that one doesn't really have any obvious centerpiece units.

    Elspeth is an LH as far as her character goes, eh?
    CA won’t waste a unit spot for the Hurricanum for Middenland. Middenland already needs 6 units, 2 heroes and 1 Lord. That’s already way to much for a LP if we are honest.

    Elspeth is just the best choice. She is a wizard Lord which is pretty rare in the empire right now and she is from Nuln. She could operate everywhere on the map. I really don’t get the hate against her from some people. Sure personal taste is fine at all, but compared to all other empire Lord options, she is by far the most unique one.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 9,690

    Is gelt borderline evil and not tied to a particular course of action lore wise or thematically for the empire.

    Yes?
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,563
    edited January 2020
    SerPus said:

    Crossil said:


    She isn't ethereal.

    I guess it's a reference to that rule
    ArneSo said:


    No she is definitely not.

    She's a flying caster. And if we look at the game as a whole then she's pretty much a discount Mannfred or skinnier Azhag.
    ArneSo said:


    Jubal is just another Range Lord, we already have Wulfhart for that.

    Okay. "Elspeth is just another Caster Lord, we already have Gelt for that. "
    ArneSo said:


    She could start everywhere in the world

    How is she special in that aspect? CA can put any character anywhere, as they did multiple times.

    Must have missed that Manny is part of the Empire now...

    The only Wizard Lord at all for the Empire is Gelt.

    We don’t have any generic wizard Lords or any other LL wizard choice.

    We don’t have any Empire character riding a Dragon.

    We need more Wizard Lord options for the Empire and only Elspeth can add them.

    Let’s put all her pros together:
    - Wizard
    - lore
    - Uniqueness
    - Dragon
    - Dark character
    - Nuln
    - Wizard Lord option
    - Female
    - Nuln Units
    - Hurricanum

    She is by far the best option, if you don’t like her, that’s okay and absolutely fine but saying Jubal or any other Characters would be better option is just wrong.
    We know how CA works and how they pick their Characters. Elspeth is exactly that character they would pick if the Empire gets a Nuln/Tamurkkhan based DLC.

    And yes riding a Carmine Dragon is absolutely unique for the empire.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • The_real_FAUST#6885The_real_FAUST#6885 Registered Users Posts: 2,069
    Which is why Gelt has people follow her to work out what's she's up to as no one knows?

    You are bing deliberately obtuse and you know it.

    Jubal would be fine I've no problem.with Jim, he adds less opportunity than Elspeth.

    Karl on a dragon adds little new.

    Kurt can introduce grandmasters, functionally in gameplay he would be little different than a general he would fall between Karl, Marcus and a general. That's his limiting factor.

    The difference between a character killer and a monster killer is slight in gameplay. Jubal will fall between Marcus and a witch hunter. This is a problem. He also doesn't introduce Lord characters unlike Elspeth with Wizard Lords.

    There are harder tasks than Elspeth.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,563
    SerPus said:

    Is gelt borderline evil and not tied to a particular course of action lore wise or thematically for the empire.

    Yes?
    You even know anything about the lore mate? 😂
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 9,690
    ArneSo said:


    Must have missed that Manny is part of the Empire now...

    You missed "f we look at the game as a whole" part. Does every faction needs a death caster on a dragon now?
    ArneSo said:


    We don’t have any Empire riding a Dragon.

    So what? There is too many dragons in the game already.
    ArneSo said:


    You even know anything about the lore mate? 😂

    I do.

  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    ArneSo said:

    Crossil said:

    Jubal and Marcus are too similar as Lords gameplay wise

    Huss is more usable than valten as a LH

    If a a semi ethereal death Wizard lord on a dragon doesn't seem different then no other lord will if you take a simplistic attitude

    Emil is just an arch lector
    Jubal is Marcus with gunpowder
    Helborg a tankier duelist empire general.

    Jubal as a hero offers more

    Elspeth is a dark character and offers a very different campaign than other empire characters who are more typically 'good'

    There's far more scope to her than the others.

    Don't get me wrong I want them all. But she's a very dark character with mysterious motives which Ca could do a lot with.

    Help the empire and order or go down a darker path. Let the player decide.

    And of the units or generic lords/heroes that can be added she covers the broadest range in terms of theme, both being themed to Imperial magic (thus justifying Wizard Lords and the Hurricanum) and the city of Nuln (Engineer heroes and Longrifles) which offers a pretty solidlineup for a lord pack.
    If you ignore the fact she's more an outsider to Nuln and has as much common with Engineers as Jubal has with mages(and her connection to Colleges of Magic is also kinda weak). Even then it depends on just if CA even will make a lord choice that would require 8 different models(although it might not be that hard depending on how much they try). The list would be Engineers, Longrifles and Landships. And Nuln Ironsides if they are an actual unit rather than RoR. Imagine if they add the Hurricanum to Middenland because that one doesn't really have any obvious centerpiece units.

    Elspeth is an LH as far as her character goes, eh?
    CA won’t waste a unit spot for the Hurricanum for Middenland. Middenland already needs 6 units, 2 heroes and 1 Lord. That’s already way to much for a LP if we are honest.

    Elspeth is just the best choice. She is a wizard Lord which is pretty rare in the empire right now and she is from Nuln. She could operate everywhere on the map. I really don’t get the hate against her from some people. Sure personal taste is fine at all, but compared to all other empire Lord options, she is by far the most unique one.
    No centerpiece unit is an actual issue if you ask me since CA dragged War Wagons from 4th edition to give Markus something. Even then with all remaining options Nuln has more missing than Colleges of Magic(3 vs 2) and I dunno if CA will make 8 models for each Wizard Lord.

    Thyrus Gormann and Gregor Martak are both around during this time period and were both Empire characters(4th edition former and End Times later). They aren't Supreme Patriarchs atm but they are around. Empire isn't missing wizards, even the ones of Supreme Patriarch levels.

    Unique in design but not in battlefield role. Or at least not as much as Jubal would be. My point is that people jump the gun with her simply because of her design. Especially by saying she would be both magic and semi-gunpowder focused when we already have that with Gelt yet they wouldn't admit that much now would they? Or the fact that Tamurkhan was an invasion of Nuln which if it is represented would

    I can also make a different argument, who was she paired with in Tamurkhan's final battle?

    Theodore - Tamurkhan was the final fight of the battle that determined the fate of Nuln.
    Sayl - Jubal basically met on same side of the battlefield and Jubal shot Sayl in his cyclops eye.
    Elspeth - Orhbal Vipergut the guy with a dragon that was used as a scout so she gets the mook

    Drazhoath - decided during the middle of the fight that this ain't worth the effort and went to pillage and enslave as muh as he could in the countryside and went back to the Draklands

    So even in that case she's removed from the final fight except that she got Theodore to wear a self-destruct necklace. And the true match up with Tamurkhan ends up being Theodore.

    I'm just saying you people are jumping the gun like crazy because of a dragon.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    ArneSo said:

    SerPus said:

    Crossil said:


    She isn't ethereal.

    I guess it's a reference to that rule
    ArneSo said:


    No she is definitely not.

    She's a flying caster. And if we look at the game as a whole then she's pretty much a discount Mannfred or skinnier Azhag.
    ArneSo said:


    Jubal is just another Range Lord, we already have Wulfhart for that.

    Okay. "Elspeth is just another Caster Lord, we already have Gelt for that. "
    ArneSo said:


    She could start everywhere in the world

    How is she special in that aspect? CA can put any character anywhere, as they did multiple times.

    Must have missed that Manny is part of the Empire now...

    The only Wizard Lord at all for the Empire is Gelt.

    We don’t have any generic wizard Lords or any other LL wizard choice.

    We don’t have any Empire character riding a Dragon.

    We need more Wizard Lord options for the Empire and only Elspeth can add them.

    Let’s put all her pros together:
    - Wizard
    - lore
    - Uniqueness
    - Dragon
    - Dark character
    - Nuln
    - Wizard Lord option
    - Female
    - Nuln Units
    - Hurricanum

    She is by far the best option, if you don’t like her, that’s okay and absolutely fine but saying Jubal or any other Characters would be better option is just wrong.
    We know how CA works and how they pick their Characters. Elspeth is exactly that character they would pick if the Empire gets a Nuln/Tamurkkhan based DLC.

    And yes riding a Carmine Dragon is absolutely unique for the empire.
    We have 0 engineer named characters or character options. Several of the things you list apply to Jubal and are more thematically connected to him. Jubal is a valid option.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,563
    SerPus said:

    ArneSo said:


    Must have missed that Manny is part of the Empire now...

    You missed "f we look at the game as a whole" part. Does every faction needs a death caster on a dragon now?
    ArneSo said:


    We don’t have any Empire riding a Dragon.

    So what? There is too many dragons in the game already.
    ArneSo said:


    You even know anything about the lore mate? 😂

    I do.

    Well it doesn’t matter if other races have dragon Lords. Each race is unique and the empire still needs that kind of LL. They are missing any kind of Wizard Lords, Legendary as well as generic.

    Please tell me how would Jubal be better than Elspeth? What makes him a better choice? Whiz should CA pick him over Elspeth?

    I don’t have anything against him but compared to Elspeth he offers less.

    It seems that you are just arguing against her because you don’t like her as a character. No offence here but it just doesn’t matter if you like her or not. If you just think objective about it it’s clear that she is the better choice.

    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,563
    Crossil said:

    ArneSo said:

    SerPus said:

    Crossil said:


    She isn't ethereal.

    I guess it's a reference to that rule
    ArneSo said:


    No she is definitely not.

    She's a flying caster. And if we look at the game as a whole then she's pretty much a discount Mannfred or skinnier Azhag.
    ArneSo said:


    Jubal is just another Range Lord, we already have Wulfhart for that.

    Okay. "Elspeth is just another Caster Lord, we already have Gelt for that. "
    ArneSo said:


    She could start everywhere in the world

    How is she special in that aspect? CA can put any character anywhere, as they did multiple times.

    Must have missed that Manny is part of the Empire now...

    The only Wizard Lord at all for the Empire is Gelt.

    We don’t have any generic wizard Lords or any other LL wizard choice.

    We don’t have any Empire character riding a Dragon.

    We need more Wizard Lord options for the Empire and only Elspeth can add them.

    Let’s put all her pros together:
    - Wizard
    - lore
    - Uniqueness
    - Dragon
    - Dark character
    - Nuln
    - Wizard Lord option
    - Female
    - Nuln Units
    - Hurricanum

    She is by far the best option, if you don’t like her, that’s okay and absolutely fine but saying Jubal or any other Characters would be better option is just wrong.
    We know how CA works and how they pick their Characters. Elspeth is exactly that character they would pick if the Empire gets a Nuln/Tamurkkhan based DLC.

    And yes riding a Carmine Dragon is absolutely unique for the empire.
    We have 0 engineer named characters or character options. Several of the things you list apply to Jubal and are more thematically connected to him. Jubal is a valid option.
    Yes he definitely is a valid option I never denied that, but we have limited spots and Elspeth is just a little bit better for another LP.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    edited January 2020

    Which is why Gelt has people follow her to work out what's she's up to as no one knows?

    You are bing deliberately obtuse and you know it.

    Jubal would be fine I've no problem.with Jim, he adds less opportunity than Elspeth.

    Karl on a dragon adds little new.

    Kurt can introduce grandmasters, functionally in gameplay he would be little different than a general he would fall between Karl, Marcus and a general. That's his limiting factor.

    The difference between a character killer and a monster killer is slight in gameplay. Jubal will fall between Marcus and a witch hunter. This is a problem. He also doesn't introduce Lord characters unlike Elspeth with Wizard Lords.

    There are harder tasks than Elspeth.

    The fact Gelt sends spies also makes Theoderic Gausser not an Elector Count since Karl sent Gelt to deal with him? Or when Karl sent Ludwig to Ostland? Intrigue isn't proof of much other than standard mistrust.

    I don't care what a dragon adds other than what you say it adds. Elspeth falls between Karl, Gelt and a generic Wizard. That's her limiting factor then.

    Jubal will play as a character killer and a pure gunpowder focused faction rather that split magic and gunpowder like Gelt. CA can also make Empire Engineers Lord level as they have been changing these things up as always.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 9,690
    ArneSo said:


    Each race is unique

    They won't be if each faction gets the same LL.
    ArneSo said:


    They are missing any kind of Wizard Lords, Legendary as well as generic.

    What? How is Gelt not a Wizard Lord?
    ArneSo said:


    Please tell me how would Jubal be better than Elspeth?

    Because he goes well with Nuln engineering theme. The Empire is all about "Faith, Steel and Gunpowder", yet we don't have any Empire character who uses gunpowder.
  • Nyxilis#3646Nyxilis#3646 Registered Users Posts: 7,648
    Which is why Gelt has people follow her to work out what's she's up to as no one knows?


    So, ya know she did the same to Gelt because she thought he was suspect to right?
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    edited January 2020
    ArneSo said:

    Crossil said:

    ArneSo said:

    SerPus said:

    Crossil said:


    She isn't ethereal.

    I guess it's a reference to that rule
    ArneSo said:


    No she is definitely not.

    She's a flying caster. And if we look at the game as a whole then she's pretty much a discount Mannfred or skinnier Azhag.
    ArneSo said:


    Jubal is just another Range Lord, we already have Wulfhart for that.

    Okay. "Elspeth is just another Caster Lord, we already have Gelt for that. "
    ArneSo said:


    She could start everywhere in the world

    How is she special in that aspect? CA can put any character anywhere, as they did multiple times.

    Must have missed that Manny is part of the Empire now...

    The only Wizard Lord at all for the Empire is Gelt.

    We don’t have any generic wizard Lords or any other LL wizard choice.

    We don’t have any Empire character riding a Dragon.

    We need more Wizard Lord options for the Empire and only Elspeth can add them.

    Let’s put all her pros together:
    - Wizard
    - lore
    - Uniqueness
    - Dragon
    - Dark character
    - Nuln
    - Wizard Lord option
    - Female
    - Nuln Units
    - Hurricanum

    She is by far the best option, if you don’t like her, that’s okay and absolutely fine but saying Jubal or any other Characters would be better option is just wrong.
    We know how CA works and how they pick their Characters. Elspeth is exactly that character they would pick if the Empire gets a Nuln/Tamurkkhan based DLC.

    And yes riding a Carmine Dragon is absolutely unique for the empire.
    We have 0 engineer named characters or character options. Several of the things you list apply to Jubal and are more thematically connected to him. Jubal is a valid option.
    Yes he definitely is a valid option I never denied that, but we have limited spots and Elspeth is just a little bit better for another LP.
    From which exact perspective?

    Battlefield role - they offer as much as the other. Markus and Jubal are both range. Elspeth and Gelt are wizards while Elspeth and Franz are areal monsters.

    Campaign play - Elspeth uses same focuses as Gelt while Jubal focuses more consistently on engineers and gunpowder.

    Units - If Hurricanum and Wizard Lords are in play that's still 2 vs 3 that Engineers get. So add Jubal with those 3 and add Hurricanum as an aside if it doesn't come somewhere else. Otherwise they can add on the Halfling Hot Pot. It really depends a lot on what DoW get in their roster as the Hot Pot was there as well(and I push Landship for DoW so yeh).

    Lord archetype - Jubal is the sole engineer, Elspeth is the second wizard

    Gender - she's female he's male if you really think that matters, there have your point, I don't

    Mounts - he is more open on what he can get. Mechanical stead, Landship, Steamtank, I don't think he has none when it comes to CA. Or a Dragon, you make the call.

    Uniqueness - from what I can tell you mean design? Which honestly I don't find that inspiring or representative of the Empire or Nuln specifically. Neither is Jubal that inspired. I'll say she's different but that hasn't been that interesting to me with Nakai either.

    She isn't that special by my reckoning.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • petertel123#3826petertel123#3826 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,046

    Can someone explain the appeal of Elspeth beyond her reproductive organs?

    She breaks so many basic Empire moulds that it's like she's from a different race or game entirely.

    Yeah much better to add generic empire general #8 then a character that actually adds something unique.
    Team Bretonnia
    Team Dark Elves
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,563
    Crossil said:

    ArneSo said:

    Crossil said:

    ArneSo said:

    SerPus said:

    Crossil said:


    She isn't ethereal.

    I guess it's a reference to that rule
    ArneSo said:


    No she is definitely not.

    She's a flying caster. And if we look at the game as a whole then she's pretty much a discount Mannfred or skinnier Azhag.
    ArneSo said:


    Jubal is just another Range Lord, we already have Wulfhart for that.

    Okay. "Elspeth is just another Caster Lord, we already have Gelt for that. "
    ArneSo said:


    She could start everywhere in the world

    How is she special in that aspect? CA can put any character anywhere, as they did multiple times.

    Must have missed that Manny is part of the Empire now...

    The only Wizard Lord at all for the Empire is Gelt.

    We don’t have any generic wizard Lords or any other LL wizard choice.

    We don’t have any Empire character riding a Dragon.

    We need more Wizard Lord options for the Empire and only Elspeth can add them.

    Let’s put all her pros together:
    - Wizard
    - lore
    - Uniqueness
    - Dragon
    - Dark character
    - Nuln
    - Wizard Lord option
    - Female
    - Nuln Units
    - Hurricanum

    She is by far the best option, if you don’t like her, that’s okay and absolutely fine but saying Jubal or any other Characters would be better option is just wrong.
    We know how CA works and how they pick their Characters. Elspeth is exactly that character they would pick if the Empire gets a Nuln/Tamurkkhan based DLC.

    And yes riding a Carmine Dragon is absolutely unique for the empire.
    We have 0 engineer named characters or character options. Several of the things you list apply to Jubal and are more thematically connected to him. Jubal is a valid option.
    Yes he definitely is a valid option I never denied that, but we have limited spots and Elspeth is just a little bit better for another LP.
    From which exact perspective?

    Battlefield role - they offer as much as the other. Markus and Jubal are both range. Elspeth and Gelt are wizards while Elspeth and Franz are areal monsters.

    Campaign play - Elspeth uses same focuses as Gelt while Jubal focuses more consistently on engineers and gunpowder.

    Units - If Hurricanum and Wizard Lords are in play that's still 2 vs 3 that Engineers get. So add Jubal with those 3 and add Hurricanum as an aside if it doesn't come somewhere else. Otherwise they can add on the Halfling Hot Pot. It really depends a lot on what DoW get in their roster as the Hot Pot was there as well(and I push Landship for DoW so yeh).

    Lord archetype - Jubal is the sole engineer, Elspeth is the second wizard

    Gender - she's female he's male if you really think that matters, there have your point, I don't

    Mounts - he is more open on what he can get. Mechanical stead, Landship, Steamtank, I don't think he has none when it comes to CA. Or a Dragon, you make the call.

    Uniqueness - from what I can tell you mean design? Which honestly I don't find that inspiring or representative of the Empire or Nuln specifically. Neither is Jubal that inspired. I'll say she's different but that hasn't been that interesting to me with Nakai either.

    She isn't that special by my reckoning.
    I already explained several times why she is the better option.

    I wouldn’t mind Jubal, but If I need to choose, Elspeth just seems way way better. Jubal just seems like a boring nobody to me... his lore is not that fascinating as well and he would not add any new Lord option.

    Engineers are just heroes and Jubal is an engineer. Make him a LH like Henri le Massif and he would be represented perfectly.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,414

    Can someone explain the appeal of Elspeth beyond her reproductive organs?

    She breaks so many basic Empire moulds that it's like she's from a different race or game entirely.

    Considering she looks like she's dead and wears a cowl, I don't think the driving force here is gonna be her vagina...
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 9,690
    psychoak said:


    Considering she looks like she's dead and wears a cowl, I don't think the driving force here is gonna be her vagina...

    Well, there are more than 12000 subscribers on the mod that makes Khalida very much alive and naked, so I don't think that it's a problem for these people.
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