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Tamurkkhan vs Elspeth von Draken - The Perfect Crossover LP for WH3?

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  • ArneSo#7705ArneSo#7705 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 36,845

    Can someone explain the appeal of Elspeth beyond her reproductive organs?

    She breaks so many basic Empire moulds that it's like she's from a different race or game entirely.

    She is just a mary sue character and I agree that she shouldn't come.

    The worst possibility would be if she was made the LL for Nuln. She has nothing to do with its culture, she doesn't represent it one bit!

    The LL should be Falk since he embodies the theme of nuln. In the background of Bruckner it is especially written that he no leader, "just" a really strong swordsman. So he should be a LH in my opinion.

    Ideally we would get Emmanuelle von Liebwitz for diplomatic screen only while Jubal Falk leads the armies of nuln.
    It could be a campaign with more challenging dilemmas since von Liebwitz is said to hold no interest in politics and is not capable in a fight.
    A mary Sue is a master of everything they try their hand at and beloved by all, with no flaws. Elsbeth isn't a Mary Sue, she is despised to the point that people regularly try to kill her, the populace lives in fear and disdain of her and shes not even the head of the college of death, nor is she stated to be the most powerful mage in the Empire.
    She doesn't age and seems to be immortal when looking at the rumours that she came back from the dead after the Tamurkhan event. As far as I know she has all the benefits of a vampire but no downsides. Balthasar Gelt, the strongest Wizard in the Empire is wary of her but both he and Franz let her do as she please even though such a wildcard would normaly never be tolerated. The people who want her dead are Witchhunter who gets killed by her. Are there consequences? Of course not.
    Her worst trait is the dragon. A human simply cannot control a Carmine Dragon, it is beyond their capabilities. She simply breaks the empire theme, it was always low fantasy and the humans work together to fight the big threats.

    In the battle for nuln you had just that, Regiments standing site by site supported by artillery holding the line with discipline and tactics against the onslaught of the chaos monsters. Jubal Falks part was great where he stood in line with his fellow man and brought down the mammoth of Sayl, again with discipline and gunpowder.

    Than there was elspeth with her dragon which kills all with its breath attack.... anticlimactic and doesn't fit.

    She should NEVER be the Lord for Nuln, this would be an insult for everyone who wants themed factions.
    A Lord should represent his faction, there is no better candidate than Jubal for Nuln.
    Elspeth doesn't fit the City or the emprie in general.

    I think in the older threats someone posted a Video where Loremaster of Sotek ranted about her in some part of it - all what he said made sense!

    I really don't want her in the game but if she must come than not as the representative of nuln!

    Btw, the empire should not get a dragon hence why I am happy we didn't got this mount option for Franz.
    “I really don’t want her in the game”

    That explains it all... sorry but she is connected with Nuln just like Jubal is. We already have a monster sniper with Wulfhart so I don’t see how Jubal would be different...

    But a dark immortal Wizard riding a dragon? Well that would be something new and I say that as someone who prefers Foot Lords!

    Jubal would be cool for sure, but Elspeth would really be amazing and would also feel very different. And that’s basically what a LP is all about...

    She’s an official character and part of the lore so she doesn’t break any rules.
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,414
    edited January 2020
    The dragon is from Forge World. That's a nonsense argument.

    You don't want Empire to have a dragon? Fine, opinion, but fine. I share it, Elspeth would be unique, and thus acceptable, I'd need to mod them back out of they added dragons to lords.

    "The dragon this group made can't possibly be controlled by the character the group made to ride it" is idiotic. Think about it. If Loremaster of Sotek was ranting about this, he was being an idiot too.

    Considering artillery would frequently kill dragons before they accomplished anything on TT, I really don't think it ruins the "common man" stuff either.
    SerPus said:

    psychoak said:


    Considering she looks like she's dead and wears a cowl, I don't think the driving force here is gonna be her vagina...

    Well, there are more than 12000 subscribers on the mod that makes Khalida very much alive and naked, so I don't think that it's a problem for these people.
    She's already been modded in, and someone can mod that to be naked, so...
  • doclumbago#6250doclumbago#6250 Registered Users Posts: 2,504

    Can someone explain the appeal of Elspeth beyond her reproductive organs?

    She breaks so many basic Empire moulds that it's like she's from a different race or game entirely.

    "breaks so many basic Empire moulds"

    that one. That´s one of the reasons.
    And all the while she perfectly embodies the grimdark gothic aesthetic of the Empire.
    Also: Dragon!
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,414
    If only our schools were teaching logic, instead of civility. We'll just be so wonderful as a society of drooling idiots in another hundred years or so...

    Idiotic is an adjective. You use them to describe things.

    They can, in the right circumstances, be used to accurately describe people. They can, often in the right circumstances, be used insultingly.

    They can also be used to describe actions. Neither instance in the above post was name calling. Name calling would be "You're an idiot" where as I used a description for an argument. One you didn't quite grasp in your kneejerk reaction to someone being a poopy headed meany pants and using words that aren't nice.

    One can do something idiotic, and not be an idiot. For instance, I'm replying to this thread, which is a total waste of time, on a forum that is a total waste of time, for a game that is a total waste of time. By any rational definition, idiotic, yet not related to the fact that I am indeed an idiot.

    So, again, because I'm an idiot. Forge World created Carmine Dragons. For Elspeth to ride. If one makes a lore argument that Espeth, created by Forge World, cannot possibly ride Carmine Dragons, created by Forge World, for Elspeth to ride, they are making an idiotic argument, which is an idiotic thing to do, thus are being an idiot, but are not necessarily an idiot.

    They probably are though.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • ArneSo#7705ArneSo#7705 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 36,845

    @ArneSo
    Yes, I don't want her in the game, why else should I argue against her?

    "A dark immortal Wizard riding a dragon"
    Seems like Vampire to me, definitely not proper Empire material. The Empire is unique because it didn't need something like this.

    She has nothing to do with nulns theme. She has nothing to do with its schools, with its industry with its culture...
    Jubal represents everything about it and CA can make more out of hum than just a lord sniper. Going with this, Elspeth is just another Wizard lord which we already have.

    @psychoak
    Yeah name-calling makes you really convincing. Doesn't speak for you if you can't even manage a civil discussion...

    Just because she comes from official source doesn't make her automatic good content.
    Look at the rest of the empire, does she fit in any of this? Does she fit in nuln? No she doesn't.



    That’s why she would be amazing. A grimdark Character for the Empire. One point why Wulfhart is so great is that he is basically the bad boy in the DLC. Honestly I felt so bad when I slaughtered all that poor LM just to sack their ancient Cities. But that’s how humans are. Greedy and only focused on their own personal needs. Nature and local populations doesn’t matter when it is about imperialism. In this Game Wulfhart is an evil character that blindly kills creatures he doesn’t even understand. In movies like Avatar, he would be the major villain. But that’s basically what makes him so much fun. Play the Empire in an evil way.

    You know why Vlad is so popular? Because he is a good guy in the VC race while all others are just pure evil. It makes him unique and for players that love to role play such things are very important.

    So with Elspeth we would get a LL that is absolutely different from her lore, character and personality. Instead of a big happy empire family she would have bad relations with Geld and maybe even Franz. That would lead to a very different campaign.

    Also again, she belongs to Nuln and she takes part of the Tamurkkhan story. CA bends the lore all the time and sent Wulfhart against LM in Lustria. Jubal is not the leader of Nuln, just like Elspeth is not the leader. Jubal follows whoever controls Nuln. He’s a soldier and nothing more. If Elspeth would take control of Nuln instead of boring Emmanuelle, than Jubal would follow her. he might wouldn’t be super happy about it but since he is a soldier, he would follow all commands.

    Also this should be a WH3 DLC, so the start position would be outside of the empire somewhere in the Dark Lands or maybe even the Far East. Just because the theme is Nuln, the faction doesn’t need to be Nuln or Wissenland.

    Elspeth is doing her own business and nobody knows what she is actually doing all the time. Moving her as an expedition somewhere else would work perfectly fine.

    Jubal is also a valid option but checking all the pros and cons, Elspeth would be the better option. If you don’t like her thats fine. I never liked Malus but then I tested him and realised that he is a cool character. Our Personal opinions doesn’t matter if CA picks a LL.

    Saying you would prefer Jubal because you don’t like her is perfectly okay. But saying she is a bad choice because you don’t like her is just a bad way to communicate.

    A point where we can all agree on is that the Nuln theme is probably the best theme after Ulric and Middenland. So if we get 2 more Empire LPs (what I expect) those 2 themes would be the best options.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • psychoakpsychoak Registered Users Posts: 3,414

    @psychoak
    English is not my main language so maybe I got you wrong, if that is the case I apologise.
    For the sake of not derailing the threat I will ignore your questionable statements regarding civility.

    When you look at the rest of the lore it doesn't make sense for her to be able to ride the dragon.
    Her whole story breaks immensely with the empire setting and doesn't even try to explain.

    This and because she has no real ties with the culture of nuln makes her unfitting to be its LL.

    Well ****, you had me fooled. If English isn't your first language, that's just **** embarrassing. You're doing it a hell of a lot more justice than most of these idiots over here in the US and UK are. :(

    That was totally name calling there.
  • ArneSo#7705ArneSo#7705 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 36,845

    ArneSo said:

    @ArneSo
    Yes, I don't want her in the game, why else should I argue against her?

    "A dark immortal Wizard riding a dragon"
    Seems like Vampire to me, definitely not proper Empire material. The Empire is unique because it didn't need something like this.

    She has nothing to do with nulns theme. She has nothing to do with its schools, with its industry with its culture...
    Jubal represents everything about it and CA can make more out of hum than just a lord sniper. Going with this, Elspeth is just another Wizard lord which we already have.

    @psychoak
    Yeah name-calling makes you really convincing. Doesn't speak for you if you can't even manage a civil discussion...

    Just because she comes from official source doesn't make her automatic good content.
    Look at the rest of the empire, does she fit in any of this? Does she fit in nuln? No she doesn't.



    That’s why she would be amazing. A grimdark Character for the Empire. One point why Wulfhart is so great is that he is basically the bad boy in the DLC. Honestly I felt so bad when I slaughtered all that poor LM just to sack their ancient Cities. But that’s how humans are. Greedy and only focused on their own personal needs. Nature and local populations doesn’t matter when it is about imperialism. In this Game Wulfhart is an evil character that blindly kills creatures he doesn’t even understand. In movies like Avatar, he would be the major villain. But that’s basically what makes him so much fun. Play the Empire in an evil way.

    You know why Vlad is so popular? Because he is a good guy in the VC race while all others are just pure evil. It makes him unique and for players that love to role play such things are very important.

    So with Elspeth we would get a LL that is absolutely different from her lore, character and personality. Instead of a big happy empire family she would have bad relations with Geld and maybe even Franz. That would lead to a very different campaign.

    Also again, she belongs to Nuln and she takes part of the Tamurkkhan story. CA bends the lore all the time and sent Wulfhart against LM in Lustria. Jubal is not the leader of Nuln, just like Elspeth is not the leader. Jubal follows whoever controls Nuln. He’s a soldier and nothing more. If Elspeth would take control of Nuln instead of boring Emmanuelle, than Jubal would follow her. he might wouldn’t be super happy about it but since he is a soldier, he would follow all commands.

    Also this should be a WH3 DLC, so the start position would be outside of the empire somewhere in the Dark Lands or maybe even the Far East. Just because the theme is Nuln, the faction doesn’t need to be Nuln or Wissenland.

    Elspeth is doing her own business and nobody knows what she is actually doing all the time. Moving her as an expedition somewhere else would work perfectly fine.

    Jubal is also a valid option but checking all the pros and cons, Elspeth would be the better option. If you don’t like her thats fine. I never liked Malus but then I tested him and realised that he is a cool character. Our Personal opinions doesn’t matter if CA picks a LL.

    Saying you would prefer Jubal because you don’t like her is perfectly okay. But saying she is a bad choice because you don’t like her is just a bad way to communicate.

    A point where we can all agree on is that the Nuln theme is probably the best theme after Ulric and Middenland. So if we get 2 more Empire LPs (what I expect) those 2 themes would be the best options.
    I don't agree what you say about Wulfhart and Vlad but that is a topic for the particular threats. :-)

    Like I said, it would be best if Emmanuelle would be in the diplomatic screen while Jubal leads the armies of nuln. Since he is a seasoned warrior it would make more sense then a rouge wizard that is moving around most of the time.

    I don't like so I don't want her in the game and she is a bad choice (again imo) because of the things I wrote before, I don't see the difference here.

    If she has to come than please not with a nuln themed DLC, make her a subfaction, put her far away and give her units like the hurrican for all I care. This way those who want to ignore her can do so while still have a great black powder nuln DLC.^^

    And of course Nuln would be awesome after Middenland! :-D






    Well if we just get a Nuln theme I personally don’t care who is the LL. Jubal and Elspeth both seem cool to me.

    I just want to play the Empire like Clan Skryre, it’s so much fun to just bomb your enemy to the ground.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 18,886
    ArneSo said:

    Middleland first!!! Sigmar heathens shall not keep us down.
    For Ulric

    Read my post again...

    I said this could be another crossover after Middenland.

    Sorry my bad did not read.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • SteelRoninSteelRonin Junior Member ChileRegistered Users Posts: 1,534
    I would like to see Elspeth von Draken, she looks great and different from a generic empire lord. Some players always get mad when a new LL is similar to a an existing one.......and now some players want some "elector count" instead of her...

    The Empire has enough material to approach every taste, and I would love to see a dark-themed Empire leaded by her.
  • Tyrant#1234Tyrant#1234 Registered Users Posts: 3,927
    There are some continuity issues with how "Tamurkhan: The Throne of Chaos" was written.

    While on the whole it was good for expanding the lore. I found some decisions puzzling...

    Things I thought fit their factional lores and/or the Character's own premise.

    Jubal Falk & Theodore Bruckner fits what you'd expect from men of the Empire.
    Tamurkhan & Sayl fits their Nurgle Horde and Chaos Undivided themes.
    Not much to complain about the Chaos Dwarfs Characters.


    Things I thought didn't fit their factional lores and/or the Character's own premise.

    Chaos Dwarf Infernal Guard. The idea of Infernal Guards is great but their forgeworld models (as good as they look) don't look like Chaos Dwarfs to me. They just look like stunted Chaos Warriors... They need to be redesigned to aesthetically reflect Assyrian/Mesopotamian/Hittite fashions that the rest of the Chaos Dwarfs rock. Make their helmets more iconically Chaos Dwarf like those tall bongo drum shaped hats!

    Cathayan units... It seems like the writers didn't get the memo that Cathay is based on China not Japan... The Cathayan units mentioned were all Japanese inspired rather that Chinese.

    Cathayan Bannermen are fine since GW mention Bannermen before in other works and It fits the Banner Armies of Qing Dynasty Imperial China GW based Cathay on. However in Tamurkhan the Bannermen are described as wearing lacquered armour... Sounds more like samurai than any Chinese armour I know of.

    Onyx Crowmen - Again more Japanese. I'm betting based on the Tengu Statues of Japan.
    Shegengan Wizards - Again more Japanese. Based on Shugenja practitioners.

    I get the impression they wanted to write lore for Nippon rather than Cathay...



    Elspeth von Draken is inbetween. She fits the Amethyst Wizard tropes. The main issue I have with her is tha Dragon... It was a conscience decision in the first place by GW not to include Dragons for the Empire. It was a good decision IMO, it kept Dragons from becoming too common and mundane. There's the Dragon in the Imperial Zoo but Franz practically never rides it, it doesn't even have a name AFAIK. Then suddenly there's this unique Carmine Dragon no one ever mentioned before... That's why I'm OK with Elspeth and her dragon if they were a "time limited" Legendary Lord of Hero rather than a permanent LL faction leader.
    1234 I declare a thumb war! 5678 I use this hand to mass-debate!
  • Ares354Ares354 Registered Users Posts: 4,292
    I dont get one thing from all of you people here, exepct OP

    Why you attack her based on her looks, and that she dont fit Empire, coz how she looks ? or magic she use ? Like, what kind of Empire Wizard look close to other citizens ? to be normal?

    Wizard will look very different, yet ex- Supreme Patriarch Thyrus Gormann had flames all over body, their school is burning in day, and he was third person in Empire politics. Her look is hardly a problem here.

    She is unique among Wizard Lord that can be added to Empire, like is Gregor Martak, because both of those character whould ride different mount then Gelt and common Wizard Lord apart from Heaven and Light Wizard Lord who would use Luminark and Celestial as mount.

    She is dark, she is not loved in Empire, and so what ? no ever Empire lord is loved, non of Empire character is pure.

    She have connection to that dlc, that point cant be removed. As far that some people dont like her, live with it. Empire have only 4 LL, no FLC. We need more, and apart from Helborg, and Emil she bring fresh ideas, with fresh gameplay. Her mechanic can be very unique.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    Abmong said:

    Cathayan units... It seems like the writers didn't get the memo that Cathay is based on China not Japan... The Cathayan units mentioned were all Japanese inspired rather that Chinese.

    Cathayan Bannermen are fine since GW mention Bannermen before in other works and It fits the Banner Armies of Qing Dynasty Imperial China GW based Cathay on. However in Tamurkhan the Bannermen are described as wearing lacquered armour... Sounds more like samurai than any Chinese armour I know of.

    Onyx Crowmen - Again more Japanese. I'm betting based on the Tengu Statues of Japan.
    Shegengan Wizards - Again more Japanese. Based on Shugenja practitioners.

    I get the impression they wanted to write lore for Nippon rather than Cathay...

    You know why? Because there never was a serious attempt at making a factual Cathay faction. Cathay was GW's poster boy for oriental expy and analogue of how some practices were carried over from the far east to Europe and thus was given whatever they could cram from China and Japan and the average person wouldn't notice.

    Don't tell Draxynnic that. He's still hoping that GW had "unreleased material" on Cathay and how GW "might have" thought about making a list from those references that are just generic eastern concepts that never get explored.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    edited January 2020
    Ares354 said:

    I dont get one thing from all of you people here, exepct OP

    Why you attack her based on her looks, and that she dont fit Empire, coz how she looks ? or magic she use ? Like, what kind of Empire Wizard look close to other citizens ? to be normal?

    Wizard will look very different, yet ex- Supreme Patriarch Thyrus Gormann had flames all over body, their school is burning in day, and he was third person in Empire politics. Her look is hardly a problem here.

    She is unique among Wizard Lord that can be added to Empire, like is Gregor Martak, because both of those character whould ride different mount then Gelt and common Wizard Lord apart from Heaven and Light Wizard Lord who would use Luminark and Celestial as mount.

    She is dark, she is not loved in Empire, and so what ? no ever Empire lord is loved, non of Empire character is pure.

    She have connection to that dlc, that point cant be removed. As far that some people dont like her, live with it. Empire have only 4 LL, no FLC. We need more, and apart from Helborg, and Emil she bring fresh ideas, with fresh gameplay. Her mechanic can be very unique.

    It has more to do with people saying her design is unique when it really isn't. She's just an Amethyst wizard with a dragon mount and we already have several varieties of dragons in the game. The fact she has one only makes her different within the Empire until Franz gets the Imperial Dragon. The only other "uniqueness" is that she's female which never really did anything for me.

    But it is an entirely different thing to not be loved in the Empire and to take a "dark route" like how some people are suggesting. It is the latter that I, at least, have objected to and what would ultimately count against her leading any Empire factions.

    CA is going to make a characters mechanics unique depending on how they are feeling at the moment. They have already proved that with mister Generic and Markus. A line in lore can get overblown by CA into a full mechanic.

    She's another wizard so that's not fresh gameplay. A dragon is a bulky flying monster which Franz on his Gryphon is so not again. She would, exactly like Gelt, have a magic focus with gunpowder subfocus so she offers none from that perspective either. What fresh gameplay? Mechanics get made up by CA whenever they feel like it so that is completely unfounded reasoning.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • Tyrant#1234Tyrant#1234 Registered Users Posts: 3,927
    Crossil said:

    Abmong said:

    Cathayan units... It seems like the writers didn't get the memo that Cathay is based on China not Japan... The Cathayan units mentioned were all Japanese inspired rather that Chinese.

    Cathayan Bannermen are fine since GW mention Bannermen before in other works and It fits the Banner Armies of Qing Dynasty Imperial China GW based Cathay on. However in Tamurkhan the Bannermen are described as wearing lacquered armour... Sounds more like samurai than any Chinese armour I know of.

    Onyx Crowmen - Again more Japanese. I'm betting based on the Tengu Statues of Japan.
    Shegengan Wizards - Again more Japanese. Based on Shugenja practitioners.

    I get the impression they wanted to write lore for Nippon rather than Cathay...

    You know why? Because there never was a serious attempt at making a factual Cathay faction. Cathay was GW's poster boy for oriental expy and analogue of how some practices were carried over from the far east to Europe and thus was given whatever they could cram from China and Japan and the average person wouldn't notice.

    Don't tell Draxynnic that. He's still hoping that GW had "unreleased material" on Cathay and how GW "might have" thought about making a list from those references that are just generic eastern concepts that never get explored.
    I would've agree and been OK with it had it not been for the fact that GW already established Nippon as the Japanese Samurai inspired faction ever since the early editions. They had plans to flesh out both Cathay and Nippon as the "Not" China and Japan of WH, but the project was shelved indefinitely. They was clear distinction from the start. "Tamurkhan: The Throne of Chaos" came along and blurred those lines.
    1234 I declare a thumb war! 5678 I use this hand to mass-debate!
  • whymakemedothiswhymakemedothis Registered Users Posts: 117
    When discussing whether or not a lord option for the Empire is unique why are people bringing up what other factions have as reasons why they wouldn't be unique? If CA used such nonsensical logic we wouldn't have Markus as Alith Anar was already a foot archer lord or we wouldn't have Gor Rok as Queek was already a melee foot lord. If a lord brings something new to their faction then they are unique regardless of what any other faction has.

    As I'm concerned the three lord options I've seen mentioned(Bruckner, Elspeth and Jubal) are all unique.

    Theodore Bruckner rides a demigryph which would give the empire a mobile ap lord option that is much harder to snipe than a lord on a griffon.

    Elspeth von Draken rides a dragon and uses the lore of death which none of the current lords do. First a dragon is not a griffon so no Franz does not represent the same thing. A dragon is tankier than a griffon but slower. It also has a breath attack which when used well can be decisive in battle. Furthermore she would combine the strong melee with casting which is something that neither Franz or Gelt do so would certainly open up new game play options for the Empire.

    Final point on Elspeth would be on her campaign effects. If we assume she is going to buff magic and gunpowder the same as Gelt that is not a problem as there are already factions with multiple lords buffing the same units such as Gor Rok and Kroq Gar both buffing saurus just in different ways. Therefore if Gelt buffs damage then Elspeth could reduce recruitment and/or upkeep costs.

    All that is of course assuming she has to buff any particular units. CA could instead take inspiration from her lore of magic. If we compare her to Gelt and the lore of metal both do damage and reduce enemy armour but they diverge when metal buffs armour while death buffs and reduces leadership. Therefore Elspeth's lord effects could be a leadership buff and ward save for all units in her army.

    Finally Jubal Falk would be unique as an engineer lord. However there are some problems with that. First if we assume he's battlefield role is going to be as a character sniper then there is significant over lap with Markus. Now Markus may not be good against foot lords but he is against mounted characters. Therefore Jubal could be a foot lord sniper but then he runs into the same problem that the Dwarf engineer and gunnery wight have whereby once the target has engaged in melee LOS becomes obstructed and they can no longer fire.

    As for mounts I've read his entry on the wiki and it seems as the captain of the Nuln Ironsides he would be a foot lord. Even if he had a mount a land ship or steam tank would completely take away all of his uniqueness(he would no longer be a sniper, just a land ship or a steam tank) so the only suitable mount in my opinion would be a horse or maybe a Pegasus. Now before anyone says well Ikit has a doom wheel mount he is a caster so although he loses his unique combat stats and takes those of his mount he can still cast his spells.


    Now if choosing between them as LL options I would first rule out Bruckner as I'd prefer to see demi's as a mount option for Grand Masters in order to differentiate them from Generals of the Empire so he would lose what makes him unique. Then considering the issues that rifle armed characters have with targeting the one type of characters that would set him apart from Markus I think Jubal makes more sense as a LH. Therefore of the three I'd prefer to see Elspeth as a LL.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    edited January 2020
    Abmong said:

    Crossil said:

    Abmong said:

    Cathayan units... It seems like the writers didn't get the memo that Cathay is based on China not Japan... The Cathayan units mentioned were all Japanese inspired rather that Chinese.

    Cathayan Bannermen are fine since GW mention Bannermen before in other works and It fits the Banner Armies of Qing Dynasty Imperial China GW based Cathay on. However in Tamurkhan the Bannermen are described as wearing lacquered armour... Sounds more like samurai than any Chinese armour I know of.

    Onyx Crowmen - Again more Japanese. I'm betting based on the Tengu Statues of Japan.
    Shegengan Wizards - Again more Japanese. Based on Shugenja practitioners.

    I get the impression they wanted to write lore for Nippon rather than Cathay...

    You know why? Because there never was a serious attempt at making a factual Cathay faction. Cathay was GW's poster boy for oriental expy and analogue of how some practices were carried over from the far east to Europe and thus was given whatever they could cram from China and Japan and the average person wouldn't notice.

    Don't tell Draxynnic that. He's still hoping that GW had "unreleased material" on Cathay and how GW "might have" thought about making a list from those references that are just generic eastern concepts that never get explored.
    I would've agree and been OK with it had it not been for the fact that GW already established Nippon as the Japanese Samurai inspired faction ever since the early editions. They had plans to flesh out both Cathay and Nippon as the "Not" China and Japan of WH, but the project was shelved indefinitely. They was clear distinction from the start. "Tamurkhan: The Throne of Chaos" came along and blurred those lines.
    They only had intentions to do this in older editions, 3rd and earlier, but those are far removed from current canon. In later editions they abandoned those distinctions since they lost interest when the oriental fad faded. Cathay was left as the sole definer of the Far East because, I think, China was the stronger influencer of the two irl, Silk Road and that.
    Post edited by Crossil on
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    edited January 2020

    When discussing whether or not a lord option for the Empire is unique why are people bringing up what other factions have as reasons why they wouldn't be unique? If CA used such nonsensical logic we wouldn't have Markus as Alith Anar was already a foot archer lord or we wouldn't have Gor Rok as Queek was already a melee foot lord. If a lord brings something new to their faction then they are unique regardless of what any other faction has.

    As I'm concerned the three lord options I've seen mentioned(Bruckner, Elspeth and Jubal) are all unique.

    Theodore Bruckner rides a demigryph which would give the empire a mobile ap lord option that is much harder to snipe than a lord on a griffon.

    Elspeth von Draken rides a dragon and uses the lore of death which none of the current lords do. First a dragon is not a griffon so no Franz does not represent the same thing. A dragon is tankier than a griffon but slower. It also has a breath attack which when used well can be decisive in battle. Furthermore she would combine the strong melee with casting which is something that neither Franz or Gelt do so would certainly open up new game play options for the Empire.

    Final point on Elspeth would be on her campaign effects. If we assume she is going to buff magic and gunpowder the same as Gelt that is not a problem as there are already factions with multiple lords buffing the same units such as Gor Rok and Kroq Gar both buffing saurus just in different ways. Therefore if Gelt buffs damage then Elspeth could reduce recruitment and/or upkeep costs.

    All that is of course assuming she has to buff any particular units. CA could instead take inspiration from her lore of magic. If we compare her to Gelt and the lore of metal both do damage and reduce enemy armour but they diverge when metal buffs armour while death buffs and reduces leadership. Therefore Elspeth's lord effects could be a leadership buff and ward save for all units in her army.

    Finally Jubal Falk would be unique as an engineer lord. However there are some problems with that. First if we assume he's battlefield role is going to be as a character sniper then there is significant over lap with Markus. Now Markus may not be good against foot lords but he is against mounted characters. Therefore Jubal could be a foot lord sniper but then he runs into the same problem that the Dwarf engineer and gunnery wight have whereby once the target has engaged in melee LOS becomes obstructed and they can no longer fire.

    As for mounts I've read his entry on the wiki and it seems as the captain of the Nuln Ironsides he would be a foot lord. Even if he had a mount a land ship or steam tank would completely take away all of his uniqueness(he would no longer be a sniper, just a land ship or a steam tank) so the only suitable mount in my opinion would be a horse or maybe a Pegasus. Now before anyone says well Ikit has a doom wheel mount he is a caster so although he loses his unique combat stats and takes those of his mount he can still cast his spells.


    Now if choosing between them as LL options I would first rule out Bruckner as I'd prefer to see demi's as a mount option for Grand Masters in order to differentiate them from Generals of the Empire so he would lose what makes him unique. Then considering the issues that rifle armed characters have with targeting the one type of characters that would set him apart from Markus I think Jubal makes more sense as a LH. Therefore of the three I'd prefer to see Elspeth as a LL.

    Franz is decked out for melee far more than any other character so while a Gryphon on its own isn't much, with buffs that Franz provides he matches even dragon riders. So the only difference is that she has magic.

    Also, Gor Rok buffs Saurus only while Kroq Gar buffs DINOS. They do not overlap other than Kroq Gar providing some upkeep reduction to Saurus in his own army, iirc. Even if there were characters that overlap it is a problem as a different focus is preferable. Besides, both Elspeth and Gelt have gunpowder as their secondary focus, not their primary. They are mages first and foremost.

    Markus was nerfed specifically to make him less of a character killer. CA intentionally changed his role with the last patch nerfing his abilities to the ground against characters so that he focuses on monsters. This line about Jubal's specialty being worthless doesn't work as we have range LLs that work. Especially if he gets to buff range and artillery directly from his battlefield abilities. He'll put Gunpowder in Faith, Steel and Gunpowder.

    The only thing that could change is his main weapons but we already have that with several mounts. Settra and Wulfrik on Khemrian Warsphynx and Mammoth don't use their weapons either but those abilities remain. Engineers did have mechanical steads as their own mounts on TT so that's a start. I think the Steam Tank is more accurate to his role. It would also differentiate him from Markus further by having the option to go on foot for sniping vs a tank.

    I know people want to pretend that gameplay favours Elspeth but whenever they analyze what she gets they literally give her what Gelt does and ignore Jubal who doesn't. Every single time. Even you only accounted his battlefield role and not his army focus. I'm just saying, I think you guys are being biased. She is prefered because of herself, her dragon and not what she represents. Jubal represents the Engineers of the Empire. The later is the LL former is the LH.

    I generally pass up Theodore as well but I still keep him around as he was the guy that fought Tamurkhan in the final fight.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • ArneSo#7705ArneSo#7705 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 36,845
    Crossil said:

    When discussing whether or not a lord option for the Empire is unique why are people bringing up what other factions have as reasons why they wouldn't be unique? If CA used such nonsensical logic we wouldn't have Markus as Alith Anar was already a foot archer lord or we wouldn't have Gor Rok as Queek was already a melee foot lord. If a lord brings something new to their faction then they are unique regardless of what any other faction has.

    As I'm concerned the three lord options I've seen mentioned(Bruckner, Elspeth and Jubal) are all unique.

    Theodore Bruckner rides a demigryph which would give the empire a mobile ap lord option that is much harder to snipe than a lord on a griffon.

    Elspeth von Draken rides a dragon and uses the lore of death which none of the current lords do. First a dragon is not a griffon so no Franz does not represent the same thing. A dragon is tankier than a griffon but slower. It also has a breath attack which when used well can be decisive in battle. Furthermore she would combine the strong melee with casting which is something that neither Franz or Gelt do so would certainly open up new game play options for the Empire.

    Final point on Elspeth would be on her campaign effects. If we assume she is going to buff magic and gunpowder the same as Gelt that is not a problem as there are already factions with multiple lords buffing the same units such as Gor Rok and Kroq Gar both buffing saurus just in different ways. Therefore if Gelt buffs damage then Elspeth could reduce recruitment and/or upkeep costs.

    All that is of course assuming she has to buff any particular units. CA could instead take inspiration from her lore of magic. If we compare her to Gelt and the lore of metal both do damage and reduce enemy armour but they diverge when metal buffs armour while death buffs and reduces leadership. Therefore Elspeth's lord effects could be a leadership buff and ward save for all units in her army.

    Finally Jubal Falk would be unique as an engineer lord. However there are some problems with that. First if we assume he's battlefield role is going to be as a character sniper then there is significant over lap with Markus. Now Markus may not be good against foot lords but he is against mounted characters. Therefore Jubal could be a foot lord sniper but then he runs into the same problem that the Dwarf engineer and gunnery wight have whereby once the target has engaged in melee LOS becomes obstructed and they can no longer fire.

    As for mounts I've read his entry on the wiki and it seems as the captain of the Nuln Ironsides he would be a foot lord. Even if he had a mount a land ship or steam tank would completely take away all of his uniqueness(he would no longer be a sniper, just a land ship or a steam tank) so the only suitable mount in my opinion would be a horse or maybe a Pegasus. Now before anyone says well Ikit has a doom wheel mount he is a caster so although he loses his unique combat stats and takes those of his mount he can still cast his spells.


    Now if choosing between them as LL options I would first rule out Bruckner as I'd prefer to see demi's as a mount option for Grand Masters in order to differentiate them from Generals of the Empire so he would lose what makes him unique. Then considering the issues that rifle armed characters have with targeting the one type of characters that would set him apart from Markus I think Jubal makes more sense as a LH. Therefore of the three I'd prefer to see Elspeth as a LL.

    Franz is decked out for melee far more than any other character so while a Gryphon on its own isn't much, with buffs that Franz provides he matches even dragon riders. So the only difference is that she has magic.

    Also, Gor Rok buffs Saurus only while Kroq Gar buffs DINOS. They do not overlap other than Kroq Gar providing some upkeep reduction to Saurus in his own army, iirc. Even if there were characters that overlap it is a problem as a different focus is preferable. Besides, both Elspeth and Gelt have gunpowder as their secondary focus, not their primary. They are mages first and foremost.

    Markus was nerfed specifically to make him less of a character killer. CA intentionally changed his role with the last patch nerfing his abilities to the ground against characters so that he focuses on monsters. This line about Jubal's specialty being worthless doesn't work as we have range LLs that work. Especially if he gets to buff range and artillery directly from his battlefield abilities. He'll put Gunpowder in Faith, Steel and Gunpowder.

    The only thing that could change is his main weapons but we already have that with several mounts. Settra and Wulfrik on Khemrian Warsphynx and Mammoth don't use their weapons either but those abilities remain. Engineers did have mechanical steads as their own mounts on TT so that's a start. I think the Steam Tank is more accurate to his role. It would also differentiate him from Markus further by having the option to go on foot for sniping vs a tank.

    I know people want to pretend that gameplay favours Elspeth but whenever they analyze what she gets they literally give her what Gelt does and ignore Jubal who doesn't. Every single time. Even you only accounted his battlefield role and not his army focus. I'm just saying, I think you guys are being biased. She is prefered because of herself, her dragon and not what she represents. Jubal represents the Engineers of the Empire. The later is the LL former is the LH.

    I generally pass up Theodore as well but I still keep him around as he was the guy that fought Tamurkhan in the final fight.
    Jubal would fit great as a buffer for Nuln gunpowder units, but he can also do this as a LH...

    Depending on her battlefield role Elspeth and Jubal are both interesting but if we just look at the character, Elspeth easily wins.

    CA picked Malus for the same reason but compared to Elspeth he had nothing unique and no connection with the units.

    Elspeth is from Nuln so she obviously would buff all Nuln themed units.

    Like I said before, Jubal would be interesting as well, but since we can only get one as a LL Elspeth is the bette option.

    Jubal can still be a LH.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    edited January 2020
    ArneSo said:

    Crossil said:

    When discussing whether or not a lord option for the Empire is unique why are people bringing up what other factions have as reasons why they wouldn't be unique? If CA used such nonsensical logic we wouldn't have Markus as Alith Anar was already a foot archer lord or we wouldn't have Gor Rok as Queek was already a melee foot lord. If a lord brings something new to their faction then they are unique regardless of what any other faction has.

    As I'm concerned the three lord options I've seen mentioned(Bruckner, Elspeth and Jubal) are all unique.

    Theodore Bruckner rides a demigryph which would give the empire a mobile ap lord option that is much harder to snipe than a lord on a griffon.

    Elspeth von Draken rides a dragon and uses the lore of death which none of the current lords do. First a dragon is not a griffon so no Franz does not represent the same thing. A dragon is tankier than a griffon but slower. It also has a breath attack which when used well can be decisive in battle. Furthermore she would combine the strong melee with casting which is something that neither Franz or Gelt do so would certainly open up new game play options for the Empire.

    Final point on Elspeth would be on her campaign effects. If we assume she is going to buff magic and gunpowder the same as Gelt that is not a problem as there are already factions with multiple lords buffing the same units such as Gor Rok and Kroq Gar both buffing saurus just in different ways. Therefore if Gelt buffs damage then Elspeth could reduce recruitment and/or upkeep costs.

    All that is of course assuming she has to buff any particular units. CA could instead take inspiration from her lore of magic. If we compare her to Gelt and the lore of metal both do damage and reduce enemy armour but they diverge when metal buffs armour while death buffs and reduces leadership. Therefore Elspeth's lord effects could be a leadership buff and ward save for all units in her army.

    Finally Jubal Falk would be unique as an engineer lord. However there are some problems with that. First if we assume he's battlefield role is going to be as a character sniper then there is significant over lap with Markus. Now Markus may not be good against foot lords but he is against mounted characters. Therefore Jubal could be a foot lord sniper but then he runs into the same problem that the Dwarf engineer and gunnery wight have whereby once the target has engaged in melee LOS becomes obstructed and they can no longer fire.

    As for mounts I've read his entry on the wiki and it seems as the captain of the Nuln Ironsides he would be a foot lord. Even if he had a mount a land ship or steam tank would completely take away all of his uniqueness(he would no longer be a sniper, just a land ship or a steam tank) so the only suitable mount in my opinion would be a horse or maybe a Pegasus. Now before anyone says well Ikit has a doom wheel mount he is a caster so although he loses his unique combat stats and takes those of his mount he can still cast his spells.


    Now if choosing between them as LL options I would first rule out Bruckner as I'd prefer to see demi's as a mount option for Grand Masters in order to differentiate them from Generals of the Empire so he would lose what makes him unique. Then considering the issues that rifle armed characters have with targeting the one type of characters that would set him apart from Markus I think Jubal makes more sense as a LH. Therefore of the three I'd prefer to see Elspeth as a LL.

    Franz is decked out for melee far more than any other character so while a Gryphon on its own isn't much, with buffs that Franz provides he matches even dragon riders. So the only difference is that she has magic.

    Also, Gor Rok buffs Saurus only while Kroq Gar buffs DINOS. They do not overlap other than Kroq Gar providing some upkeep reduction to Saurus in his own army, iirc. Even if there were characters that overlap it is a problem as a different focus is preferable. Besides, both Elspeth and Gelt have gunpowder as their secondary focus, not their primary. They are mages first and foremost.

    Markus was nerfed specifically to make him less of a character killer. CA intentionally changed his role with the last patch nerfing his abilities to the ground against characters so that he focuses on monsters. This line about Jubal's specialty being worthless doesn't work as we have range LLs that work. Especially if he gets to buff range and artillery directly from his battlefield abilities. He'll put Gunpowder in Faith, Steel and Gunpowder.

    The only thing that could change is his main weapons but we already have that with several mounts. Settra and Wulfrik on Khemrian Warsphynx and Mammoth don't use their weapons either but those abilities remain. Engineers did have mechanical steads as their own mounts on TT so that's a start. I think the Steam Tank is more accurate to his role. It would also differentiate him from Markus further by having the option to go on foot for sniping vs a tank.

    I know people want to pretend that gameplay favours Elspeth but whenever they analyze what she gets they literally give her what Gelt does and ignore Jubal who doesn't. Every single time. Even you only accounted his battlefield role and not his army focus. I'm just saying, I think you guys are being biased. She is prefered because of herself, her dragon and not what she represents. Jubal represents the Engineers of the Empire. The later is the LL former is the LH.

    I generally pass up Theodore as well but I still keep him around as he was the guy that fought Tamurkhan in the final fight.
    Jubal would fit great as a buffer for Nuln gunpowder units, but he can also do this as a LH...

    Depending on her battlefield role Elspeth and Jubal are both interesting but if we just look at the character, Elspeth easily wins.

    CA picked Malus for the same reason but compared to Elspeth he had nothing unique and no connection with the units.

    Elspeth is from Nuln so she obviously would buff all Nuln themed units.

    Like I said before, Jubal would be interesting as well, but since we can only get one as a LL Elspeth is the bette option.

    Jubal can still be a LH.
    Dude, just think about what you're saying about Malus. He has several books detailing his exploits. It has more to do with him being a well known character than mere character. He has a popularity larger than several characters and was part of the main armybook. Even I predicted him in favour of Rakarth. Elspeth has approximately a page or two of character story when you take her entry page and add what else she did in the story(relatively little). She isn't character heavy character like Malus for it to be the thing that outweights others.

    She doesn't have anything to do with the engineers or Nuln(technically there's some connection). She's known but she doesn't hold any formal position. She's a mage that keeps to her own devices for the most part. She would still have a secondary focus on Engineers stuff but not because she has anything to do with them. Even Gelt has more connection to them, like all Gold Wizards, as they do work with engineers and Gelt specifically experimented in Imperial Engineers School for a time.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    edited January 2020
    If I'm to be honest she would better be served on her own rather than being in conjunction with Nuln. That's what she's supposed to be, right? Her own character.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • NyxilisNyxilis Registered Users Posts: 7,541
    Crossil said:

    If I'm to be honest she would better be served on her own rather than being in conjunction with Nuln. That's what she's supposed to be, right? Her own character.

    They could shuffle her anywhere, just like they can any single LL which they have given plenty examples of doing so. However, doesn't mean they will for ME. Especially if they have. O long term plans for the others then theybvery well might put here there to have someone there.
  • whymakemedothiswhymakemedothis Registered Users Posts: 117
    Crossil said:

    Franz is decked out for melee far more than any other character so while a Gryphon on its own isn't much, with buffs that Franz provides he matches even dragon riders. So the only difference is that she has magic.

    Franz on his Gryphon has low MD so is very much a glass cannon. He is very good at dropping in and doing burst damage but not suited for prolonged melee combat particularly when outnumbered. As I said a dragon is much tankier, therefore a character flying on one is much better suited to prolonged melee combat particularly when outnumbered as they are not as good at focusing down a single target unless it is a large one. So that is the difference in terms of melee capabilities. Additionally even if Elspeth were mounted on a Gryphon the fact is she'd still be a hybrid lord(melee/caster) which is still unique for the Empire.
    Crossil said:

    Also, Gor Rok buffs Saurus only while Kroq Gar buffs DINOS. They do not overlap other than Kroq Gar providing some upkeep reduction to Saurus in his own army, iirc. Even if there were characters that overlap it is a problem as a different focus is preferable. Besides, both Elspeth and Gelt have gunpowder as their secondary focus, not their primary. They are mages first and foremost.

    Which was exactly my point. Gor Rok buffs saurus stats and Kroq Gar buffs their cost. Therefore if Gelt buffs gunpowder stats then Elspeth could buff their costs. We also have an example of a lord who does nothing but buff recruitment and upkeep costs for a unit type in the most recent DLC with Malus who only provides such bonuses to cold one units.
    Crossil said:

    Markus was nerfed specifically to make him less of a character killer. CA intentionally changed his role with the last patch nerfing his abilities to the ground against characters so that he focuses on monsters. This line about Jubal's specialty being worthless doesn't work as we have range LLs that work. Especially if he gets to buff range and artillery directly from his battlefield abilities. He'll put Gunpowder in Faith, Steel and Gunpowder.

    Yes post nerfs Markus is no longer good at sniping foot lords. However his BvL still kicks in against mounted lords which covers most of them hence Jubal's niche would be sniping foot lords.

    As for ranged LL's already in game they work because with the exception of Harkon they all have weapons with an arced trajectory which means LOS is only an issue for them when their target is an infantry sized unit engaged in melee. Harkon works because his ranged attack is secondary to his role as a caster plus when he gets his flying mount his LOS issues are largely resolved.
    Crossil said:

    The only thing that could change is his main weapons but we already have that with several mounts. Settra and Wulfrik on Khemrian Warsphynx and Mammoth don't use their weapons either but those abilities remain. Engineers did have mechanical steads as their own mounts on TT so that's a start. I think the Steam Tank is more accurate to his role. It would also differentiate him from Markus further by having the option to go on foot for sniping vs a tank.

    You've missed the point I was trying to make with Ikit. Each lord has a design(archer, melee, caster etc.) and none of them have mounts that counter it.

    Ikit is a caster and when mounted on a doomwheel he is still a caster.

    Settra is a hybrid melee/caster and when mounted on a war sphinx he may lose his BvL but he is still a hybrid.

    Wulfrik is a melee lord and when mounted on a mammoth he is still a melee lord.

    Even Noctilus when mount on a necrofex still retains a hybrid melee/caster role while adding artillery to it.

    Jubal would be a sniper. If you mount him in a steam tank then he becomes artillery thus losing what made him unique. That is why I suggested appropriate mounts for him would be either a horse or a Pegasus the latter of which would also resolve his LOS issues.
    Crossil said:

    I know people want to pretend that gameplay favours Elspeth but whenever they analyze what she gets they literally give her what Gelt does and ignore Jubal who doesn't. Every single time. Even you only accounted his battlefield role and not his army focus. I'm just saying, I think you guys are being biased. She is prefered because of herself, her dragon and not what she represents. Jubal represents the Engineers of the Empire. The later is the LL former is the LH.

    The only reason I didn't mention his potential army focus is that I thought it was pretty obvious it would be gunpowder. The same as Gelt. Now although you've stated having two lords focusing on the same thing is a problem I've clearly stated in my posts that I disagree hence why I didn't feel the need to mention it again and instead focused on battlefield role.

    Additionally I don't see army focus as being that big of a deal when it comes to selecting one lord over another. Given the design of Malus I'd say neither do CA or otherwise we would have got Rakarth whose beast focus would have been much more comprehensive than Malus' recruitment and upkeep reductions for cold ones.

    Finally I don't see any of these DLC lord options we are discussing starting in Nuln. CA have shown a clear trend with the last two lord packs of the lords contained within having their own unique campaign mechanics and objectives. If any new empire lord were to start in Nuln or any other imperial province they would have to adhere to the new elector counts mechanic which would be severely limiting on the new factions design. Therefore I'd suggest if we were to see a Tamurkhan themed lord pack both lords would most likely start somewhere in the Darklands.

    If we are ever to receive new lords starting within the empire borders my bet is that they'll be FLC(Toddy, Marius etc.), not part of a DLC lord pack.
  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    edited January 2020

    Crossil said:

    Franz is decked out for melee far more than any other character so while a Gryphon on its own isn't much, with buffs that Franz provides he matches even dragon riders. So the only difference is that she has magic.

    Franz on his Gryphon has low MD so is very much a glass cannon. He is very good at dropping in and doing burst damage but not suited for prolonged melee combat particularly when outnumbered. As I said a dragon is much tankier, therefore a character flying on one is much better suited to prolonged melee combat particularly when outnumbered as they are not as good at focusing down a single target unless it is a large one. So that is the difference in terms of melee capabilities. Additionally even if Elspeth were mounted on a Gryphon the fact is she'd still be a hybrid lord(melee/caster) which is still unique for the Empire.
    Crossil said:

    Also, Gor Rok buffs Saurus only while Kroq Gar buffs DINOS. They do not overlap other than Kroq Gar providing some upkeep reduction to Saurus in his own army, iirc. Even if there were characters that overlap it is a problem as a different focus is preferable. Besides, both Elspeth and Gelt have gunpowder as their secondary focus, not their primary. They are mages first and foremost.

    Which was exactly my point. Gor Rok buffs saurus stats and Kroq Gar buffs their cost. Therefore if Gelt buffs gunpowder stats then Elspeth could buff their costs. We also have an example of a lord who does nothing but buff recruitment and upkeep costs for a unit type in the most recent DLC with Malus who only provides such bonuses to cold one units.
    Crossil said:

    Markus was nerfed specifically to make him less of a character killer. CA intentionally changed his role with the last patch nerfing his abilities to the ground against characters so that he focuses on monsters. This line about Jubal's specialty being worthless doesn't work as we have range LLs that work. Especially if he gets to buff range and artillery directly from his battlefield abilities. He'll put Gunpowder in Faith, Steel and Gunpowder.

    Yes post nerfs Markus is no longer good at sniping foot lords. However his BvL still kicks in against mounted lords which covers most of them hence Jubal's niche would be sniping foot lords.

    As for ranged LL's already in game they work because with the exception of Harkon they all have weapons with an arced trajectory which means LOS is only an issue for them when their target is an infantry sized unit engaged in melee. Harkon works because his ranged attack is secondary to his role as a caster plus when he gets his flying mount his LOS issues are largely resolved.
    Crossil said:

    The only thing that could change is his main weapons but we already have that with several mounts. Settra and Wulfrik on Khemrian Warsphynx and Mammoth don't use their weapons either but those abilities remain. Engineers did have mechanical steads as their own mounts on TT so that's a start. I think the Steam Tank is more accurate to his role. It would also differentiate him from Markus further by having the option to go on foot for sniping vs a tank.

    You've missed the point I was trying to make with Ikit. Each lord has a design(archer, melee, caster etc.) and none of them have mounts that counter it.

    Ikit is a caster and when mounted on a doomwheel he is still a caster.

    Settra is a hybrid melee/caster and when mounted on a war sphinx he may lose his BvL but he is still a hybrid.

    Wulfrik is a melee lord and when mounted on a mammoth he is still a melee lord.

    Even Noctilus when mount on a necrofex still retains a hybrid melee/caster role while adding artillery to it.

    Jubal would be a sniper. If you mount him in a steam tank then he becomes artillery thus losing what made him unique. That is why I suggested appropriate mounts for him would be either a horse or a Pegasus the latter of which would also resolve his LOS issues.
    Crossil said:

    I know people want to pretend that gameplay favours Elspeth but whenever they analyze what she gets they literally give her what Gelt does and ignore Jubal who doesn't. Every single time. Even you only accounted his battlefield role and not his army focus. I'm just saying, I think you guys are being biased. She is prefered because of herself, her dragon and not what she represents. Jubal represents the Engineers of the Empire. The later is the LL former is the LH.

    The only reason I didn't mention his potential army focus is that I thought it was pretty obvious it would be gunpowder. The same as Gelt. Now although you've stated having two lords focusing on the same thing is a problem I've clearly stated in my posts that I disagree hence why I didn't feel the need to mention it again and instead focused on battlefield role.

    Additionally I don't see army focus as being that big of a deal when it comes to selecting one lord over another. Given the design of Malus I'd say neither do CA or otherwise we would have got Rakarth whose beast focus would have been much more comprehensive than Malus' recruitment and upkeep reductions for cold ones.

    Finally I don't see any of these DLC lord options we are discussing starting in Nuln. CA have shown a clear trend with the last two lord packs of the lords contained within having their own unique campaign mechanics and objectives. If any new empire lord were to start in Nuln or any other imperial province they would have to adhere to the new elector counts mechanic which would be severely limiting on the new factions design. Therefore I'd suggest if we were to see a Tamurkhan themed lord pack both lords would most likely start somewhere in the Darklands.

    If we are ever to receive new lords starting within the empire borders my bet is that they'll be FLC(Toddy, Marius etc.), not part of a DLC lord pack.
    Franz kills anyone due to sheer power. The entire bit about MD disqualifying him doesn't work.

    You didn't even bother thinking about what I wrote concerning faction focuses. Let me put it in simpler terms for you. Kroq Gar provides buffs for Dinos, Cold Ones and Saurus and his personal skills don't buff Saurus so they are the same. He has several different disassociated focuses with most buffs going to Dinos. Gor Rok firmly focuses on buffing Saurus and nothing else so his Saurus are substantially better than anyone else. That's why Gor Rok is the Saurus LL while Kroq Gar is the Dino LL. Gelt and Elspeth focus on exactly same things in exactly same measures(magic first, gunpowder second). The analogy of Gor Rok and Kroq Gar is closer to Gelt and Jubal. Gelt has an ability that somewhat buffs gunpowder(Kroq Gar), Jubal would focus everything he has on gunpowder(like Gor Rok).

    You also say focuses don't matter but for most of this topic people love pointing out her army focus. So there, for anyone who feels like pointing out her focus again she ain't special.

    Except that most characters are on foot at start and some are permanently on foot. It's still a valid distinction, you can't argue against it.

    Harkon is melee/range and uses a pistol. Jubal would be shooting at his targets at Jezzail range(Hochland Longrifle is a sniper with that exact range). It's a long way from melee. Even if there would be some overlap with characters on mounts or monstrous characters it's still a distinction.

    Except that Wulfrik is a duelist which is no longer true on a Mammoth. Necrofex is not a melee mount if you didn't know. Jubal on a tank is not a problem, in fact, it gives him a different potential role depending on the mount(thanks for pointing it out). So there, first when everyone is on foot he can be the sniper LL, when everyone gets mounts he can be the artillery LL. And who says cannonballs ain't close(enough) to sniping.

    Yes, as I said Mechanical Steeds:
    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Mechanical_Steed

    Malus is THE Cold Ones LL. He commands the center of the Cold Ones and rides one himself. As for why he was added it's lore relevance. He has entire books.

    I think people misunderstood what I meant under Elspeth not having a connection with Nuln. What I meant is that she should be on her own, not part of a Nuln based faction. She should be her own character than having engineers and their stuff shoved in her faction. Then she can focus on magic further.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • whymakemedothiswhymakemedothis Registered Users Posts: 117
    Crossil said:

    Franz kills anyone due to sheer power. The entire bit about MD disqualifying him doesn't work.

    I’m not sure not sure where you got the impression I was trying to disqualify him from. I mentioned his MD as a way to highlight the way he works in melee is different to how dragon riders(who generally have higher MD) operate and hence why him being a melee lord doesn’t disqualify Elspeth and her dragon, just as Markus being a ranged lord doesn’t disqualify Jubal as each has their own niche.
    Crossil said:

    You didn't even bother thinking about what I wrote concerning faction focuses. Let me put it in simpler terms for you. Kroq Gar provides buffs for Dinos, Cold Ones and Saurus and his personal skills don't buff Saurus so they are the same. He has several different disassociated focuses with most buffs going to Dinos. Gor Rok firmly focuses on buffing Saurus and nothing else so his Saurus are substantially better than anyone else. That's why Gor Rok is the Saurus LL while Kroq Gar is the Dino LL. Gelt and Elspeth focus on exactly same things in exactly same measures(magic first, gunpowder second). The analogy of Gor Rok and Kroq Gar is closer to Gelt and Jubal. Gelt has an ability that somewhat buffs gunpowder(Kroq Gar), Jubal would focus everything he has on gunpowder(like Gor Rok).

    You also say focuses don't matter but for most of this topic people love pointing out her army focus. So there, for anyone who feels like pointing out her focus again she ain't special.

    Thanks but I was already well aware of all that. The fact that Kroq Gar buffs the stats of Dinos is completely incidental to the point I was trying to make about multiple characters having focuses that buff the same unit or unit type.

    Now I’ve noticed that in none of your responses have you mentioned my initial suggestion that Elspeth’s faction focus could be an upkeep reduction for gunpowder(say 20%) and an army focus of improved leadership(her men are more afraid of her than the enemy) and a small ward save and/or magic buffs. Is this not different from Gelt while still playing in the same playground(magic/gunpowder)?

    As for people pointing out faction focuses in a thread about potential LL whom each have a focus as part of their design that is only natural. That doesn't make it important just as people continuously referring to Elspeth's gender doesn't make it important.
    Crossil said:

    Except that most characters are on foot at start and some are permanently on foot. It's still a valid distinction, you can't argue against it.

    Harkon is melee/range and uses a pistol. Jubal would be shooting at his targets at Jezzail range(Hochland Longrifle is a sniper with that exact range). It's a long way from melee. Even if there would be some overlap with characters on mounts or monstrous characters it's still a distinction.

    I was never arguing against it being a valid distinction, my argument was that it is not a useful distinction. The only way a true sniper lord would be distinct from a ranged lord like Markus is if they can kill or at least do severe damage to their target before it enters melee and is no longer available for targeting. This is exactly what Markus could do when he was released and was blatantly OP, and why he deservedly got the nerfs he did. This is why I believe Jubal makes more sense as a hero where he doesn’t need that kind of damage to be useful just like Dwarf engineers and gunnery wights.

    Put it another way, lets say that Jubal has a range of 300 and does something in the range of 250-300 AP damage. That sounds an awful lot like Alith Anar. Now if we were to add Alith Anar to the Empire is he all that different to Markus? My opinion is no.
    Crossil said:

    Except that Wulfrik is a duelist which is no longer true on a Mammoth. Necrofex is not a melee mount if you didn't know. Jubal on a tank is not a problem, in fact, it gives him a different potential role depending on the mount(thanks for pointing it out). So there, first when everyone is on foot he can be the sniper LL, when everyone gets mounts he can be the artillery LL. And who says cannonballs ain't close(enough) to sniping.

    Yes, as I said Mechanical Steeds:
    https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Mechanical_Steed

    I don’t see how Wulfrik doing more splash damage on a mammoth is much of a departure from the melee monster that he was to start with.

    As for the Necrofex it has over 40 MA, 400 AP WS and over 9000 HP so it is no slouch in melee if you didn’t know.

    As for Jubal I still see no sense in a mount that would turn the games potentially one and only rifle armed lord into a faceless steam tank. As you noted, either a mechanical steed or a Pegasus so he at least keeps what makes him unique.
    Crossil said:

    Malus is THE Cold Ones LL. He commands the center of the Cold Ones and rides one himself. As for why he was added it's lore relevance. He has entire books.

    I don’t agree that his lore relevance is the reason he was added although it would have played a role. In the end CA are making a PC strategy game so they’ll pick the options they think best add to game play. In Malus’ case they focused on his possession and that has translated into a great battlefield mechanic. However despite the volume of source material they didn’t draw on any of it to add any sort of role play content in the form of quests or deep campaign mechanics.

    Now as a total war fan who knew nothing about warhammer until I picked up total war warhammer I’m fine with that. However I see a lot of posts on here that suggest warhammer fans don’t necessarily feel the same.
    Crossil said:

    I think people misunderstood what I meant under Elspeth not having a connection with Nuln. What I meant is that she should be on her own, not part of a Nuln based faction. She should be her own character than having engineers and their stuff shoved in her faction. Then she can focus on magic further.

    I can agree with that up to the part about having units such as engineers included because as I said the only way I see the Empire getting new units is via DLC which most likely will take place outside the borders of the Empire so they’ll be added with such lords even if they don’t necessarily match. Just like how warp grinders and mortars were added with Snikch and Eshin.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    @Schwarzhelm

    So you listened to Loremaster of Sotek nerd rage about something he personally doesn't like and now you're parroting his bs back to me? you know he was a massive supporter of Nakai getting in as a lord right? something alot of fans claimed was heresy (some still do). Everyone has one part of the kore that doesn't sit well with them for one reason or another.

    She doesn't break the theme of the faction, although she does diverge from it somewhat (like all Wizards of death do!), which is why shes hated, its why she fights so hard against the forces of evil, its why the lore says that shes an extremely devoted scion of the Empire, because she has to prove herself constantly so that her countrymen don't simply turn on her for being different.

    Amathyst Mages in general are looked upon with suspicion and mistrust because the lore of Shyish is so similar to Necromancy and its quite out of character for the Empire in general. There is alot of social stigma levied against them built into the fabric of the lore! Elsbeth is no exception to that.

    "After the battle, those that saw her claimed she had faded to no more than an insubstantial shadow from her trials, and it was years afterwards before she was seen abroad again, her pale and youthful aspect restored once more."


    She didn't die, she dissipated at the end of the event, Likely because she expended so much magic that it took a tole on her (this is linked to her ageing which we'll get into).

    "she is an obsessive experimenter and mystic who goes where she will, and has collected and collated a storehouse of mystical artefacts and lore which she guards jealously and has become so saturated with Shyish, the Amethyst wind of Death, that there are some who whisper she is no longer human at all, a theory perhaps given credence by her almost spectral, pallid aspect, which has remained unchanged for decades"


    She's obsessed with magical artefacts and is advancing her knowledge in the arcane arts, to the point where over exposure has caused her to become almost like a magical artefact herself, she has become a similar conduit to the winds of Shyish and is somewhat caught between the land of the living and the spirit world.

    Shes not Immortal, only forever youthful in appearance. Shes not a Vampire (though it's ironic that people like you say she is, because thats what the people of the Empire think too, they don't have the full story and so assume she's evil, its a main component of her character).

    "Furthermore the few foolhardy or overenthusiastic witch hunters, unaware of her relationship to the governing powers of Nuln or too fanatically sure of their own righteousness to care, who have attempted to delve deeper into her business or storm her tower have been swallowed up so completely that they have never been able to share anything they have learned."


    This part comes in a paragraph that is discussing rumours surrounding her, so it could be untrue, but even if it is, it clearly points out that she is too important to the ruling powers (Emanuelle) and has been offered protections from investigation because she is the elector countesses go-to for aiding in battles.

    Are Witch Hunters allowed to kill anyone they want, regardless of innocence? also, Gelt is watching her at all times, so surely he would use this as the perfect excuse to have her killed.

    My only explanation for this would be that Emanuelle is a terrible leader who regularly abuses her power and would either keep it quiet, intentionally overlook it or cover it up because she doesn't care about sorting out these kinds of disputes, all she cares about is over indulging herself and attempting to make Nuln its own city state so she can have it all to herself.

    So it could be made up stories, it could be negligence or it could indeed be a blunder on the part of GW when they wrote the lore. Whatever the case though, I wouldn't levy it as a point against Elsbeth, this doesn't make her as a person more out of place or out of character (which again is kind of the point!).

    And none of this makes her a Mary Sue. Mary Sues are beloved by all, the centre of attention/the plot, they're masters at everything they try their hand at, regardless of experience and they have no flaws.

    Elsbeth is a social outcast, the lore says shes "obsessive" and "Greedy" when it comes to her artefacts. She works independently and hordes magic artefacts which is kind of semi-illegal in the Empire, or at least, not well to do. People hate/fear her so much in Nuln that she has become a local story that parents tell their children to frighten them, people actively try to kill her, including Gelt. She's not a master at everything she tries to do, shes a Wizard and shes good at that (thats it!) some try to say that she's good in melee too, which somehow makes her a Mary Sue, but its her dragon thats good in melee not her, plenty of other characters in the lore have magic and can also throw down in melee (Eltharion, Neferata, Mannfred, Malekith, Masdamundi etc).
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 3,416
    @Schwarzhelm

    "Her worst trait is the dragon. A human simply cannot control a Carmine Dragon, it is beyond their capabilities. She simply breaks the empire theme, it was always low fantasy and the humans work together to fight the big threats."


    This is bullsh*t by the way, Carmine Dragons are Dragons that have been saturated in the magic of Shyish as a hatchling (just like Elsbeth), Elsbeth is an Amethyst wizard so why cant she control a dragon that itself is a creature that has been dominated and changed by the same lore of magic?

    Also, dragons are really smart in this universe, there are even dragons that work as mercenaries in the lore, so again, why couldn't this one cooperate with Elsbeth?

    The Dragon also doesn't mess with the Empire aesthetic since in the lore Franz has a dragon too.

    "In the battle for nuln you had just that, Regiments standing site by site supported by artillery holding the line with discipline and tactics against the onslaught of the chaos monsters. Jubal Falks part was great where he stood in line with his fellow man and brought down the mammoth of Sayl, again with discipline and gunpowder. Than there was Elspeth with her dragon which kills all with its breath attack.... anticlimactic and doesn't fit."


    She doesn't just up and kill everyone, shes flying overhead during the assault, assisting them. Then at the Climax of the battle she stores up and unleashes a spell so powerful it destroys the enemy and transports her through the spirit realm to somewhere else (hence why she disappears.

    This is quite a common trope in the Warhammer lore, the soldiers stave off the enemy while a wizard readies a massive spell that, when unleashed, will win them the battle. That's basically every Lizardmen battle ever in a nutshell.

    "Btw, the empire should not get a dragon hence why I am happy we didn't got this mount option for Franz."


    Why not? because you personally don't like it? I'm sure CA will consider that against the fact that its in the lore, it works, loads of people including many members of the YouTube community really want it, and they'd make alot of money from the pack as a result...
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