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Simple Vortex Change

2twoto2twoto Registered Users Posts: 81
To be blunt, it seems that vortex spells (excluding those that stay still like Pit of Shades, though even those have become rarer of late) are not great insofar as spells are concerned: while people do still bring bound vortex spells (See Slann and Volkmar Banishments), when it comes to the normal version of the spells they only rarely see competitive play.

Looking at why this is, it becomes apparent that, while their damage is nothing to scoff at, they have problems with control and predictability: after being cast, they move at complete random. This leads to a problem when compared to similar damage spells: why use flame storm when the pendulum or flaming skull can produce similar results without the risk of the spell either going nowhere useful or backfiring and damaging your own army? Sure, one could try to argue the damage and disruption is greater, but the complete lack of control turns vortexes into roulette games which, generally, don't go in your favor. And since, if the vortex misses badly, you waste precious WoM, it's better to not play that game at all and instead stick with something significantly more likely to hit. As such, most vortexes are not considered competitive and thus are not generally brought.

There is a rather simple solution to this problem: allow the player to control the initial direction of the vortex.

There are 2 ways to do this:

1) Have vortex spells be cast like wind spells. Basically, when casting you can control the direction the vortex initially goes the same way the direction of wind spells are controlled. After casting, the vortex will move in that direction initially then resume it's normal random movement.

Or

2) Have vortex spells always initially move away from the caster. In this version, the spell's initial direction would be directly away from the caster, then the spell would resume it's normal random movement.

Either solution would make vortexes more viable, as the initial direction could be controlled and thus friendly fire/complete misses would be less common. It would also allow for actual counter-play, as the opponent could see what direction the vortex would initially be going and move troops accordingly (instead of currently where the opponent just moves their troops out of the initial zone and hopes the vortex moves in a different direction). I personally think 1st suggestion is preferable (avoids the problems that made Warhammer 1 wind spells difficult to use), but some might see that as too strong even if vortexes were nerfed a little in compensation, hence the 2nd suggestion.

Any thoughts?

Also, on a side note, CA can you please lower the WoM cost of Command the Unliving Overcast? The poor Strigoi Ghoul King has to pay 3-4 more WoM for strictly inferior Crypt horrors compared to the Manticore/Rotten Promethean summoning spells respectively (16 WoM for Command overcast vs 13 for Transformation and 12 for Denizens) and gets them for less time. A longer duration and/or lower WoM cost would be appreciated!

Comments

  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,409
    I don't think Vortex spell shuld hit reliably, cause it could get pretty toxic pretty fast just like dwellers from below were at the end of the game 1.

    Maybe jus decrease the WOM cost to allow more gamble.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,565
    option #2 isn't too bad. I think they could continue to make them move a little slower, but really even with the rng these spells have gotten a lot better in many cases and can be worth the cost. Flame storm for example will nuke whichever unit you cast it on and then chaos damage after that.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,372
    I also kind of like vortices to remain vortices, not become more like bombardment/wind.

    Vortices with some random motion can cover lots of ground vs boxes and the random element feels very warhammer even if it's not great for MP.

    Some wom reduction maybe, but ever more I would like gold reduction for spells so that you can afford to enter match with more spells for tactical flexibility without crippling your build.

    I would kind of like it if mages always came with all spells (not for full cost). Seeing all spells brought all the time would be kind of cool.
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,604
    Make them cheaper to uncommon

    Vortex arent bad but not every game bringing it has situations to cast it

    Making it just risky to even bring it when it is already risky to use it


    But dont change the wom free vortex like volknar and slann
    They are good
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 5,905
    Vortices just need a moderate gold cost reduction to pick and they will be played. Nobody is willing to pay 200g for a maybe-used spell AND one that has randomness. But make that 80-100g and you will see them a bunch more.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,178
    Reducing 1 or 2 WOM costs wouldn't hurt either.
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  • 2twoto2twoto Registered Users Posts: 81
    Seems like most of you think they simply need to be cheaper, either in Gold, WoM, or both, which, in hindsight, I do agree would help solve some of their problems. My only concern with this solution, though, is that it it might make the gamble too favorable: vortexes are already technically over-efficient in terms of potential damage (For example, whereas Bujna or Final Trans might deal 25% or even 50% health damage to a cav/infantry unit, a good Purple Sun can take 70-90% of the health of several units of cav/infantry for a similar gold cost and less WoM). Making them even cheaper in that regard runs the risk of vortex spells being too often worth the gamble and thus edge out other spells.

    Comparatively, making them more consistent by allowing control over the initial direction would not run this risk, as they would only be efficient against blobs and not encroach as much on other spells niches. Also, just to be clear, I'm not advocating that the randomness goes away entirely: just that the first direction the vortex goes be player controlled. Thereafter, it can continue to have the same random movement as currently.

    In any case, though, that is my one concern with lowering the cost of the spell.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 23,888
    edited January 12
    I made the suggestion a while ago that vortices should move in this fashion:

    Vortex-Path

    1.Always away from their point of origin
    2.Bound to stay within a cone expanding from that point of origin

  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,924
    Why bother with all these crazy changes. All they need is a very simple -50% vortex move speed and all vortex spells would immediately be fixed.
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  • WilliamCAWilliamCA Registered Users, CA Staff Posts: 22
    2twoto said:



    1) Have vortex spells be cast like wind spells. Basically, when casting you can control the direction the vortex initially goes the same way the direction of wind spells are controlled. After casting, the vortex will move in that direction initially then resume it's normal random movement.

    Technically, this is already the behaviour of vortexes.
    You can click and drag to set the initial facing of the vortex when it spawns.

    A vortex and a wind spell are both the same as far as the data is concerned. The difference is in what type of targeting we show the player and if it adds a bit of course divergence every X seconds.

    The reason this isn't particularly reliable for most vortexes is the rapid and wide angle changes they undergo.
    Flame storm for example changes direction every 1 second, adding a random variance of up to 170 degrees to its current heading.
    Formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • 2twoto2twoto Registered Users Posts: 81
    WilliamCA said:

    2twoto said:



    1) Have vortex spells be cast like wind spells. Basically, when casting you can control the direction the vortex initially goes the same way the direction of wind spells are controlled. After casting, the vortex will move in that direction initially then resume it's normal random movement.

    Technically, this is already the behaviour of vortexes.
    You can click and drag to set the initial facing of the vortex when it spawns.

    A vortex and a wind spell are both the same as far as the data is concerned. The difference is in what type of targeting we show the player and if it adds a bit of course divergence every X seconds.

    The reason this isn't particularly reliable for most vortexes is the rapid and wide angle changes they undergo.
    Flame storm for example changes direction every 1 second, adding a random variance of up to 170 degrees to its current heading.
    Thanks for the information!

    In this case, a small indication of the ability to aim vortexes would be greatly appreciated (just something like a little arrow in or on the edge of the initial casting circle), both for aiming it and for the opponent to have better counter play.

    For the other players here, I'm just curious: did any of you already know this, or was it just me who was out of the loop?
  • doktarrdoktarr Registered Users Posts: 240
    edited January 13
    I will say that I use vortex abilities a lot in campaign, where you can often create very favorable situations to use them. They are much less useful in quick battles, though.
    WilliamCA said:

    The reason this isn't particularly reliable for most vortexes is the rapid and wide angle changes they undergo.
    Flame storm for example changes direction every 1 second, adding a random variance of up to 170 degrees to its current heading.

    I guess what I'd most like to see is more variation in how random the vortexes are. Right now Burning Head (not a vortex) and the Night Goblin loonies are the only examples we have of "semi-predictable" spells where the direction varies but will generally go one way. Meanwhile we have many vortex spells (hounds/purple/banish/bladewind/flamestorm/skullstorm/tempest), plus several other bound vortex abilities, that are all more or less equally random in how they move.

    I'd like to see more spells in that middle ground, with WoM pricing reflecting how some spells are more predictable than others.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,924
    Pretty much sums up why vortex needs to move SIGNIFICANTLY slower for them to be viable. They can change directions as much as they can as long as they can reliable do dmg without breezing crazy fast
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  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,565
    2twoto said:

    WilliamCA said:

    2twoto said:



    1) Have vortex spells be cast like wind spells. Basically, when casting you can control the direction the vortex initially goes the same way the direction of wind spells are controlled. After casting, the vortex will move in that direction initially then resume it's normal random movement.

    Technically, this is already the behaviour of vortexes.
    You can click and drag to set the initial facing of the vortex when it spawns.

    A vortex and a wind spell are both the same as far as the data is concerned. The difference is in what type of targeting we show the player and if it adds a bit of course divergence every X seconds.

    The reason this isn't particularly reliable for most vortexes is the rapid and wide angle changes they undergo.
    Flame storm for example changes direction every 1 second, adding a random variance of up to 170 degrees to its current heading.
    Thanks for the information!

    In this case, a small indication of the ability to aim vortexes would be greatly appreciated (just something like a little arrow in or on the edge of the initial casting circle), both for aiming it and for the opponent to have better counter play.

    For the other players here, I'm just curious: did any of you already know this, or was it just me who was out of the loop?
    Testing it now I still don’t see a pattern to it’s initial movement.

    But flame storm is a good spell don’t let anyone tell you otherwise ;)
  • AsamuAsamu Registered Users Posts: 657

    I don't think Vortex spell shuld hit reliably, cause it could get pretty toxic pretty fast just like dwellers from below were at the end of the game 1.

    Maybe jus decrease the WOM cost to allow more gamble.

    Dwellers was a problem because it didn't need full contact on units to do a crazy amount of damage. Any unit tagged was affected by a strong DoT effect that did most of the damage. After they shifted damage away from the DoT and back into the vortex part of the spell, it stopped being a problem.
    Pit of Shades isn't a problem, but hits whatever you target reliably. All vortex spells have a delay from the cast before they actually hit the targeted unit.

    I'd like to see vortex spells move a lot slower so they're more like pit of shades, or behave more like burning head/wind of death with a less random direction. It's fine for them to be niche, but most are too high risk to justify in multiplayer.

    That said, on campaign, they're fine as is, and not everything can be competitive at the same time, so it's not a huge deal if they're left mostly out of multiplayer. Some vortex spells are still usable in certain match ups.
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