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GSword Infantry Analysis- Emp Greatswords not cutting it

The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 954
edited January 14 in Balancing Discussions
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This analysis seeks to only regard Greatsword Infantry NOT Great weapon infantry.

Greatsword infantry benefit from a bonus vs Infantry whereas Great Weapon Infantry don't.

This means Greatsword infantry are more niche by their nature. They are AP infantry but their stats are, on the whole less impressive than GW infantry as they have a Bonus vs Infantry.

However, as we broadly know Elite Infantry are only really favoured if they have AP AL. OR they are suitable GW infantry who can inflict damage on all. Large or small due to their stats.

Contentions.

1.Empire Greatswords are underpowered or undercosted

2.Foot Squires lack health

Emp Greatswords have the lowest AP AND the Lowest Weapon strength AND the Lowest Charge Bonus of all Greatsword infantry. Their minor additional BvI over Footsquires still leaves them with a significant deficit with damage output.

Over time with the Gradual adjustments to other Greatsword infantry imperial Greatswords haven't had inflation adjustments to keep them relevant.

Swordmasters and Executioners now have more Health per model. These stats also do not account for MP nor MM for HE and DE respectively.

Whilst Foot Squires low HP is also an outlier and seems unfairly low given their MD and Armour.

Empire Greatswords currently have no real power. They lack WS and AP to clear compared to their peers

They also lack the HP, Armour and MD to be grindy. This is compounded by their high cost for comparatively weak performance.

They are therefore not Tanky/grindy, nor are they lethal given their weakness in WS and AP and CB.

Imperial Greatswords should, I contend receive adjustments to bring them up to date. One of the below minor adjustments perhaps?

Whether increasing their AP into line with their peers to assist with their anti Armour infantry role,

Increasing WS to their peers to assist with non armoured clearance.

Increasing model health to He and DE levels ( they should have this anyway frankly) to assist with grinding

Increasing Armour to Executioner Levels to assist resilience against chaff.

Or decreasing cost to reflect their power level.

I appreciate your time.

And no let's not talk about White Lions.

F
Post edited by The_real_FAUST on
«134

Comments

  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,492
    So by buffing greatswords, you mean buffing them all with WS armour etc is that just for emp geratswords?

    Sorry but i don't want any buffs to Fs or emp GS whatsoever now. They are fine.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 6,538
    They seem quite in line with foot squires for their cost. I haven't noticed them underperforming.
  • BovineKingBovineKing Registered Users Posts: 204
    edited January 14
    Yeah I love greatswords as they are they’re great for the cost and really shouldn’t be relied on to be true elite infantry. I always bring 2 of em when I play empire they really shine when they have the rest of the support they need from cav, missiles or magic support.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 2,926
    The only part i definitely agree is their health. There is no way they should have less health than flimsy elves. These are the toughest and most experienced soldiers of Empire.

    Sometimes it feels like some fantasy game with Warhammer flavour. Or was it always?
  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Registered Users Posts: 864
    I agree great swords is a useful category to think about as they are too specialised for direct comparison with unspecialised great weapons.

    Even so this is a pretty thin case for buffs I'm afraid. The stats show Empire GS are much better than FS and much worse than SM/HGE, exactly in line with the price difference.

    We'd need much more to think Empire GS needed a buff. Comparison with grave guard (GW) would be a good starting point as they are the most comparable unit, though I don't think they are conspicuously better value than Empire GS.

    https://twwstats.com/unitscards?units=f=0&k=wh_main_emp_inf_greatswords&r=0&v=1040626998566270501&units=f=0&k=wh_main_vmp_inf_grave_guard_1&r=0&v=1040626998566270501
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,939
    edited January 14
    Swordmasters are a blatant outlier and let's be honest, if they were in any roster other than HE, they would need nerfs. The fact that they are balanced in HE roster is only due to how hard it is to fit them in an actual army while also coming up with the usual units you need (cavalry, magic etc.). For this reason, I wouldn't compare SM with GS, it's kinda unfair. For sure SM would be OP in Empire roster for example where they would have buddy unit in 325g spearmen.

    Anyway, the other 3 units you mention, to me it seems Greatswords you get what you pay for. I think they could use maybe like +3 LD (close to 80 without touching it) but to me it seems a fine unit overall. Yes, they're not great, however the deal with them is pull them out vs an opponent who prepared for the usual state troops and punish them. They do well vs stuff like Marauders or Chaos Warriors (Shields), for example.

    To put my post in perspective, let me rate unit strength in a vacuum (i.e. in 1v1 considerations, which are often misleading!) of the units you mention:

    Swordmasters: 9/10
    Executioners: 6/10
    Foot Squires: 7/10
    Greatswords: 5.5/10

    YES Greatswords are very slightly underpowered however in my view not to the degree that loses you the game. The deal with them is have an armored frontline, not have an Empire that suddenly starts trading well vs anyone and winning frontlines (which is kinda the Empire's weak point) while also having top-tier cavalry, lords and artillery.

    Incidentally, you can make them even trade well by mixing in a Warrior Priest or even a cheap Empire Captain (Hold the Line buff).

    tl;dr: Greatswords are meant to punish opponents who try to cheese you by picking an anti-unarmored frontline (e.g. Chaos Marauders) AND to buy you extra durability in the frontline. I don't think Empire in its current balancing should have a mid-tier infantry that trades well vs other factions because weak frontline is kind of the Empire's faction weakness though I could see them getting +3 LD.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 954
    edited January 14
    I chose to only involve units that are Greatsword Infantry hence the inclusion of SMoH and the exclusion of GW infantry.
    Such as GGGW

    If we were to include GW infantry it actually supports the case for buffing Greatsword Infantry.

    Greatsword Infantry as discussed are MORE niche than GW Infantry. Greatsword Infantry SHOULD in theory beat similarly priced GW infantry as they are less well rounded.

    If, as currently happens GW infantry trade better than or nearly the same as Greatsword infantry it is clearly demonstrative that Greatsword Infantry in general are not in a good place.

    GGGW beat greatswords and are generalist GW infantry.

    The problem highlighted with Empire Greatswords is not actually their MA including their BVI. They can hit opponents BUT they have the lowest damage output of any Greatsword Infantry. Their WS and AP is an outlier. Whilst their resilience isnt enough to justify a low damage output.

    Foot Squires are closer to SMoH and Executioners in damage output.

    Pairing Greatswords with a Warrior Priest doesnt alleiviate the problem it enhances their MA which already isnt the issue with Empire Greatswords.

    Greatsword Infantry are designed to be damage dealers, not defensive Infantry or more rounded infantry. In a similar vein to Shock Cavalry which is damage oriented vs Generalist Cavalry

    Buffing LD would serve to make them more resilient which is useful.

    Currently they just fall between two stools, neither Tanky nor damage orientated.

    Greatswords could be used to punish opponents who take an unarmoured frontline. But they dont trade effectviely, cost FAR more than the units they are then fighting and dont particularly deal damage at a sufficient rate. This is the crux of Greatsword Infantry, they are AP anti infantry NOT Anti Infantry. They get used in that role but its not their niche.

    I appreciate all the comments so far

  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,492
    Well they are medicore GS unit an they fit emp theme good. Good but not the best.

    They are still not gonna be seen much often even with higher WS becasue they have a specific role, which they pretty ok at. I don't want to go back to the early 2016 emp mega frontlines.
  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Registered Users Posts: 864
    edited January 14

    I chose to only involve units that are Greatsword Infantry hence the inclusion of SMoH and the exclusion of GW infantry.
    Such as GGGW

    If we were to include GW infantry it actually supports the case for buffing Greatsword Infantry.

    Greatsword Infantry as discussed are MORE niche than GW Infantry. Greatsword Infantry SHOULD in theory beat similarly priced GW infantry as they are less well rounded.

    If, as currently happens GW infantry trade better than or nearly the same as Greatsword infantry it is clearly demonstrative that Greatsword Infantry in general are not in a good place.

    GGGW beat greatswords and are generalist GW infantry.

    In what way are GGGW generalists but GS specialised? The former have a higher BvI and given their dire MA are reliant on it to hit anything.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 954
    Apologies I was going off of the Greatswords vs Great weapons piece I forgot about their BVI.

    GGGW handily beat Greatswords as previously said.

    They beat Greatswords before their buff and price increase, and do so even more now.

    They hit less often than Greatswords, but do significantly more damage when they do. They also have more Health per model, won't break and cause Fear.

    In their role as Anti Armour Infantry they are superior to Greatswords by some margin
  • Meteor18Meteor18 Registered Users Posts: 159
    How exactly Foot Squires lack health? They are in the similar price tag as Corsairs and comparing with them, they have 1k more hp. At top of that they have more model counts, majority AP, better leadership, higher WS, better BVI and higher CB. All for a meager 25 more gold. Corsairs on other hand are faster and have more armor, MA and MD and access to Murderous Prowess. Anyway that seems to me more relevant than comparing them with units twice their price tag.

    As for Greatswords they still way more HP than both Executioners and Swordmasters, and they both much more expensive than Greatswords. The closest thing Elves have to Greatswords is White lions that have a massive 1300 less hp. Your request to add 720 more hp to Greatswords (alongside other suggested buffs) brings them to a level near Chosens and I don't think many people want that. Even now they have more HP than Chaos Warriors.

    Their WS and damage output isn't shabby either. Foot Squires have a bit more but that's more than compensated with better HP, armor, combat stats and what else.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 954

    Well they are medicore GS unit an they fit emp theme good. Good but not the best.

    They are still not gonna be seen much often even with higher WS becasue they have a specific role, which they pretty ok at. I don't want to go back to the early 2016 emp mega frontlines.

    That is certainly not the point being raised, fear of WH1 is no reason to leave a unit patently lagging behind its peers in such a state.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 954
    Meteor18 said:

    How exactly Foot Squires lack health? They are in the similar price tag as Corsairs and comparing with them, they have 1k more hp. At top of that they have more model counts, majority AP, better leadership, higher WS, better BVI and higher CB. All for a meager 25 more gold. Corsairs on other hand are faster and have more armor, MA and MD and access to Murderous Prowess. Anyway that seems to me more relevant than comparing them with units twice their price tag.

    As for Greatswords they still way more HP than both Executioners and Swordmasters, and they both much more expensive than Greatswords. The closest thing Elves have to Greatswords is White lions that have a massive 1300 less hp. Your request to add 720 more hp to Greatswords (alongside other suggested buffs) brings them to a level near Chosens and I don't think many people want that. Even now they have more HP than Chaos Warriors.

    Their WS and damage output isn't shabby either. Foot Squires have a bit more but that's more than compensated with better HP, armor, combat stats and what else.



    Because Corsairs are 75 models and Foot Squires are 90 models. Their Health per model is exactly the same- 69 HP.

    That would lead us to ask whether Corsairs should have similar health per model as Executioners or Foot Squires similar Health to Greatswords.

    I am comparing Greatsword Infantry, that is AP anti Armoured Infantry.

    Corsairs have 7 AP, Foot Squires have 26.

    Corsairs are Anti light armour infantry

    Foot Squires / Greatsword Infantry are not.


    Greatswords Have 90 models. The Elf Units have 75 Models Each Emp GS model has 76 HP, Executioners and SMoH have 84 HP per model. So yes Greatswords have higher total Unit HP but lower model HP, so, they lose Models Quicker, and hence they lose fighting power quicker.


    Chosen have a massive 131 HP per model but only 60 models total but even then have 1000HP more per unit than Greatswords. The closest thing HE have to Greatswords is Swordmasters by unit type, NOT White Lions. I am not proposing buffing Greatswords to Chosen.

    Foot Squires are 225 Gold less than Greatswords. Again the purpose of Greatsword Infatry is to be damage dealers. The fact they are worse at dealing damage than Foot Squires is an anomaly. The Average Greatsword Infantry WS and AP is clearly at odds with Imperial Greatswords. And their defensive stats do not lead to this being deliberate.
  • Ares354Ares354 Registered Users Posts: 3,395
    edited January 15
    Comment removed.

    On Green Knight topic, he do everything to justifie GK buff because he is that and that.

    From TT point and Lore point of view, GS shouldnt have worse weapon quality then Bretonnia and V.Counts. On TT they have same armor as Dwarfs and Chaos warrior(full plate).

    Plus stubborn rule.

    What should be change, as OP said. Turn then into Anti-Armor inf, with higher WS, and AP value, add stubbron, and make armor 100. Ofc balance cost if needed.
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,696
    edited January 15
    Just return them to former glory

    +2 def so greatswords r back to 32 att 32 def (32,32) which they use to be.

    Make greatswords great again
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  • Meteor18Meteor18 Registered Users Posts: 159
    Whilst Foot Squires low HP is also an outlier and seems unfairly low given their MD and Armour.

    Because Corsairs are 75 models and Foot Squires are 90 models. Their Health per model is exactly the same- 69 HP.

    So they both have the same hp per model, same price and squires have 15 more models at the top of ap damage. How is that for unfairly low?
    Greatswords Have 90 models. The Elf Units have 75 Models Each Emp GS model has 76 HP, Executioners and SMoH have 84 HP per model. So yes Greatswords have higher total Unit HP but lower model HP, so, they lose Models Quicker, and hence they lose fighting power quicker.

    Doesn't 15 more models also mean that they have a higher total WS than Elves and also doesn't it also mean that every losing model has less impact at unit overall performance. It seems you believe having a higher model count is a negative, it's not.
    I am not proposing buffing Greatswords to Chosen.

    Increasing model health to He and DE levels ( they should have this anyway frankly) to assist with grinding

    8 more hp per model and 90 model per unit makes that a total of 720 hp. Greatswords have 6840 hp currently and this buff brings that up to 7560. That is very close to Chosen territory.
    Foot Squires are 225 Gold less than Greatswords.

    And SM are 350 gold more.
    Again the purpose of Greatsword Infatry is to be damage dealers.

    So why buff their hp and grinding power.
    The fact they are worse at dealing damage than Foot Squires is an anomaly.

    They are not better damage dealers and It's not an anomaly. In fact Foot Squires have even higher AP damage than Swordmasters. In both cases The difference in combat stats is simply too high for that +1 or +3 ap damage to matter.
  • Wyvern2Wyvern2 Registered Users Posts: 1,573
    Empire Greatswords are honestly ok. In isolation they aren't the best, but good enough to be cost effective. Throw them in with a warrior priest/lector(you can do 1 WP for every 2 Gswords) and you can tango with greenskin waaghs and chaos frontlines in a straight up fight. Obviously you wont have as many infantry units when you approach it that way, but it just doesnt matter since there's only so much frontage your opponent can engage on, and unless you screwed up, you should be resisting the large game pretty well with all the other tools empire gets.

    FS are fine for cost, though obviously their low stats hurt in MU's where Brettonia needs to beat elite armored infantry(especially halberds)

    Execs are pretty solid nowadays, as are SM's(who got a big buff when they got more hp overall)
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  • azinthiosazinthios Registered Users Posts: 9
    If anything this kind of says foot squiers need a nerf epm is a generalist with above average cav and arty but underpowered in the monster department bret is terrifying at cav and lacking everywhere else
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 7,696
    Nah squires barely made out alive fighting mara 2h which r near $200 cheaper lol, if anything squires need help. 20 def is pathetic lol helf archers running with 30, even base r 18
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  • zer0izer0i Registered Users Posts: 336
    Ehh foot squires are ok, they have 44 WS vs inf compared to the 30 WS on the marauders + armor and decent LD. EMP GS seem fine too they win vs Chaos warriors GW and chop up saurus and stuff pretty easy.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 954
    edited January 15
    gs 2


    Shades with Greatswords:

    Higher BVI
    Higher WS
    Higher AP
    Higher CB

    Again their AP and WS is in line with the other Greatsword Infantry. For 250 Gold they are only worse in Armour and Leadership and total unit HP . And have stalk... and vanguard.. and AP Repeater Crossbows

    They have higher Model HP than Greatswords

  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 954
    zer0 said:

    Ehh foot squires are ok, they have 44 WS vs inf compared to the 30 WS on the marauders + armor and decent LD. EMP GS seem fine too they win vs Chaos warriors GW and chop up saurus and stuff pretty easy.


    But that is precisely what you would want them to target, relatively low MD mid-high armour non AP infantry. Though those two are different in that ones tanky shield inf and ones a GW generalist.

    As mentioned in the operner Generalist GW infantry are more flexible so GS-type units SHOULD trade well into them at least.

    In these cases if CW GW get the charge they win.


    The changes being suggested are not ground breaking but not as minor as 1 AP on Dragon Princes.

    Greatswords are patently underpowered compared to all other Greatsword Infantry Type units.

    My point is that in reality they need their WS and AP bringing into line with the others. +3 WS and +3 AP would sit them in the middle.. which is where their price point is. Alternatively plus BVI but then that starts affecting their MA other than just damage output so is a larger buff.

    If this is not the design view then their 'tankyness' is not enough to justify their current price point and role. How to improve that, probably plus 5 armour and some HP though their old MD olf 32 would also do it. That is, if their design is to be a more Tanky Greatsword Type.



  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,492
    edited January 15
    Ares354 said:

    Comment removed.

    On Green Knight topic, he do everything to justifie GK buff because he is that and that.

    From TT point and Lore point of view, GS shouldnt have worse weapon quality then Bretonnia and V.Counts. On TT they have same armor as Dwarfs and Chaos warrior(full plate).

    Plus stubborn rule.

    What should be change, as OP said. Turn then into Anti-Armor inf, with higher WS, and AP value, add stubbron, and make armor 100. Ofc balance cost if needed.

    Comment removed.

    Greatswods are not bad and emp is top tier faction, so i would argue buffs to them should be accompanied by some nerfs.

    And GK is really not great for 2k price but you probably don't even play MP or Bretonnia to know that.
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,492
    yst said:

    Just return them to former glory

    +2 def so greatswords r back to 32 att 32 def (32,32) which they use to be.

    Make greatswords great again

    They have +2MA and MD co mpared to vanilla GS.
  • HeroofRome1HeroofRome1 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,616
    Greatswords need +5 armour. Done.
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  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Registered Users Posts: 204
    Another buff thread for the faction which is on TOP
    What the hell
    Empire is cost effective with its units thats all what it needs right now
  • WardemonXIWardemonXI Registered Users Posts: 780

    Just leaving this here as a reference.

  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 2,225
    edited January 15
    Empire doesnt need buff
    the reason it has been getting so powerful is that people have been comparing emp units with units across factions, making empire having on par units with other factions but with a way bigger roster.

    this is another case of it
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,939

    Empire doesnt need buff
    the reason it has been getting so powerful is that people have been comparing emp units with units across factions, making empire having on par units with other factions but with a way bigger roster.

    this is another case of it

    Empire has a few jewels too that perform strongly in 1v1s, including stuff like Karl Franz, Cannons, Handgunners, Empire Knights and Demigryphs and more.

    Yes Empire infantry is kinda the weak part of the faction, specifically the inability to bring mid- and high-tier infantry (state troops are fairly efficient for the cost). But it's really fine, let Empire have a weakness lol.
  • The_real_FAUSTThe_real_FAUST Registered Users Posts: 954
    This is hardly turning greatswords into better than 'good' infantry

    They are a clear anomaly with greatsword infantry even more so than dragon princes compared to other Cav. And we all know how fervent that was.

    Look at the shade greatsword example again.
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