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isthmus of Lustria, Mazdamundi, Mortal Empires

ItharusItharus Senior MemberPosts: 8,012Registered Users
So. Mazda's got one of the worst start positions in the game.

The geography is a hot mess that's hard to traverse, with the cities somewhat oddly placed in relation to each other.

The two provinces immediately south suffer a similar problem. They are low density oddly placed cities with movement-eating terrain and roads that were laid out by a drunk person.

IMMEDIATELY north of his jungle and savannah province, we have --- tundra. What? Why? Southern Naggaroth isn't frozen... it's mostly savanna/mountains/badlands/desert. Or should be. It's the northern half that's frozen.

All of this, combined with an initially weak economy and diplomatic penalties, makes Hexoatl ME a frustrating and slow start.

It's less of an issue in Vortex because the map is expanded and there's more things closer that are easier to unify and defend.

Basically this is one more instance of the ME Lustria (and Southlands) maps being very poorly done.

Comments

  • Sir_GodspeedSir_Godspeed Posts: 1,909Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    IMMEDIATELY north of his jungle and savannah province, we have --- tundra. What? Why? Southern Naggaroth isn't frozen... it's mostly savanna/mountains/badlands/desert. Or should be. It's the northern half that's frozen.

    I've raised the issue that there should be temperate climate between the tropical of lustria and the frozen of naggaroth previously, but most people seemed to dislike that. Badlands might be potentially another choice.

    I still think they should create a new climate called "deepwoods" or something, that can be applied to the forests in the Empire and Bretonnia, as well as in Naggaroth, and which give some benefits for Wood Elves, Beastmen, some Greenskins and Undead - it would be thematically very appropriate, as well as give certain races a much needed respite.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Posts: 2,257Registered Users
    Is there ANY part of the game you enjoy?
  • WaaaghCheifWaaaghCheif Junior Member Posts: 748Registered Users

    Is there ANY part of the game you enjoy?

    Oh no someone is criticizing a part of the game, he sure hates the whole game. Not on my watch. Shut it down!



    A person can enjoy the game and point out the corners cut and criticize it.

    There is barely any incentive to start a ME campaign in Lustria when Eye of the Vortex Lustria is superior.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Posts: 2,257Registered Users

    Is there ANY part of the game you enjoy?

    Oh no someone is criticizing a part of the game, he sure hates the whole game. Not on my watch. Shut it down!



    A person can enjoy the game and point out the corners cut and criticize it.

    There is barely any incentive to start a ME campaign in Lustria when Eye of the Vortex Lustria is superior.
    One part? Have you seen his other threads?.... Read them through... You won't find him applaud much of the game design..

    On topic: Mazdamundi has a decently challenging but easily managable start, unless you turtle for 15 turns then Skeggi will never be an issue.. Also, with a Gold Mine in his start city his economy is decent enough to maintain a proper start army..

    Onthe matter of Naggaroth: "Further south, the thin soil is more fertile, allowing sparse pine forests to grow. Here, the Dark Elves have huge plantations to feed the cities by slaves who labour until they drop dead, their bodies left to nourish the barren soil." So no... The southeren parts are not Savannahs.. This is a magical world, so it doesn't have to follow our real world's geographical principles when it comes to climate and biomes.. Besides, even if you do argue that the coast land of the Grey Guardians are jungle, then the matter of fact is that Ss'ildra Tor lies up in the frozen peaks, so it would be either frozen or mountainous climate..
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USAPosts: 19,022Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    Let's stop the personal comments to those with opposing opinions on game play.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Posts: 1,936Registered Users
    I just....disagree....with basically all of that.

    Hexoatl starts with a gold mine!!! Only a handful of provinces start with as strong an economic boon. Combined with having 4 cities in the province (all of which can be reached in 1-3 turns (on par with any other 4 city province in terms of distance) means that Hexoatl is actually a very powerful economic start. Not THE MOST powerful. But significantly above average.

    On top of that, you get a strong garrison + an ethereal wizard so you don't need to leave an army home to babysit it. AND once you secure it, I actually like the defensive geography. It's much easier to defend/expand outwards from in comparison to say, Itza, without having to worry about tons of counter-attacks.

    I feel like you've created this thread before...maybe it wasn't you...in case it wasn't...I wrote a turn-by-turn guide for how secure the entire province in 10-12 turns. So I wouldn't describe the start as slow. From there, you have your pick of where you want to expand.

    Obviously the climate issue you raised deters you from expanding north....but south there is obviously no climate issue, and west is suitable enough. To be fair...in the lore, Mazda DELIBERATELY made that region immediately north of the Fallen Gates mountainous for defensive purposes. Whether you want to envision them as 'icy' mountains or not...Mazda deliberately didn't consider it as a viable point of expansion/was more interested in just keeping invaders out (thematically plays out since the Fallen Gates gets a slightly better garrison + an easier to defend map than most cities. So if you're interested in roleplay, the situation does make sense.

    Also, -10 diplomacy really doesn't affect much in the grand scheme of things. It makes VERY early trade agreements a little harder. But once you've gotten involved in your first war or two, your military actions against whoever your chosen targets were provide more than enough buffs/debuffs to offset Mazda's inherent penalty.

    I dunno....

    TL;DR:


  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 3,537Registered Users
    @Itharus

    I totally agree! Lustria and especially the northern part around the Isthmus is a complete mess in ME that just looks and feels terrible. Starting there feels just wrong in ME...

    This part of the map is so beautiful in the vortex but for me personally unplayable in ME.

    The settlers coast should be its own province and the provinces in general need to be reshaped.

    But like I said in other threads before, I don’t expect any changes in WH2.
    We will most likely get a completely new map for Immortal Empires that looks more like the vortex one.

    I don’t see any reason to ever play LM or Markus Wulfhart in ME instead of Vortex. That area is just... ugly. Yeah ugly is the best word to describe this wird shaped and screwed block of land.

    It’s not just Lustria, Naggaroth and Nehekara also look terrible in ME.

    The provinces are mostly weird shaped and just ugly. I mean why is Martek part of the Cobra pass in ME? It has a Bretonnian skin and should be part of the Coast of Araby like in the vortex.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Posts: 22,150Registered Users
    LM are another easy mode faction. Don't even see what's there to complain about. Spam armies with 19 Saurus and you can AR abuse everything around you thanks to their broken AR values and the weakness of your opponents. The money comes back from just taking settlement after settlement.

  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,822Registered Users

    Is there ANY part of the game you enjoy?

    Oh no someone is criticizing a part of the game, he sure hates the whole game. Not on my watch. Shut it down!



    A person can enjoy the game and point out the corners cut and criticize it.

    There is barely any incentive to start a ME campaign in Lustria when Eye of the Vortex Lustria is superior.
    One part? Have you seen his other threads?.... Read them through... You won't find him applaud much of the game design..

    On topic: Mazdamundi has a decently challenging but easily managable start, unless you turtle for 15 turns then Skeggi will never be an issue.. Also, with a Gold Mine in his start city his economy is decent enough to maintain a proper start army..

    Onthe matter of Naggaroth: "Further south, the thin soil is more fertile, allowing sparse pine forests to grow. Here, the Dark Elves have huge plantations to feed the cities by slaves who labour until they drop dead, their bodies left to nourish the barren soil." So no... The southeren parts are not Savannahs.. This is a magical world, so it doesn't have to follow our real world's geographical principles when it comes to climate and biomes.. Besides, even if you do argue that the coast land of the Grey Guardians are jungle, then the matter of fact is that Ss'ildra Tor lies up in the frozen peaks, so it would be either frozen or mountainous climate..
    You need to temper these descriptions by looking at some of the actual maps. You can see a biome shift in the 8E maps, but it's probably clearer looking at the 4E map:



    The pine forest works its way down to about the latitude of Vaul's Anvil. At that point, the cold climate starts to give way to a more temperate one. The Forest of Arnheim in particular uses the graphic typically used for temperate forest. The "further south" from your excerpt is probably referring to the region south of the "snowline" in the TWW2 map, not to the region close to Arnheim (which is contested territory in the fluff, not a region where the Dark Elves are going to get away with having large slave plantations).

    There is a distinct climate shift there.

    The issue is largely a gameplay one. Classifying the region as "frozen" essentially marks it as a battlefield for the High and Dark Elves... with the side effect of keeping the Lizardmen out. Reclassifying it as Temperate or Savannah would be more accurate fluffwise, and make the region less hostile to Lizardmen, but it would also make it less valuable for the Elves, and would be particularly problematic for Alith Anar and Morathi unless their climate preferences were changed to compensate.
  • EnforestEnforest Posts: 2,106Registered Users

    Is there ANY part of the game you enjoy?

    Oh no someone is criticizing a part of the game, he sure hates the whole game. Not on my watch. Shut it down!



    A person can enjoy the game and point out the corners cut and criticize it.

    There is barely any incentive to start a ME campaign in Lustria when Eye of the Vortex Lustria is superior.
    One part? Have you seen his other threads?.... Read them through... You won't find him applaud much of the game design..

    On topic: Mazdamundi has a decently challenging but easily managable start, unless you turtle for 15 turns then Skeggi will never be an issue.. Also, with a Gold Mine in his start city his economy is decent enough to maintain a proper start army..

    Onthe matter of Naggaroth: "Further south, the thin soil is more fertile, allowing sparse pine forests to grow. Here, the Dark Elves have huge plantations to feed the cities by slaves who labour until they drop dead, their bodies left to nourish the barren soil." So no... The southeren parts are not Savannahs.. This is a magical world, so it doesn't have to follow our real world's geographical principles when it comes to climate and biomes.. Besides, even if you do argue that the coast land of the Grey Guardians are jungle, then the matter of fact is that Ss'ildra Tor lies up in the frozen peaks, so it would be either frozen or mountainous climate..



    Demand more love for Empire, Greenskins and Beastmen! Playable Middenland with Cult of Ulric! Expanded Beastmen roster with Ghorgon and Jabberslythe! Bring back Black Orcs variants and Orc Big Boss heroes!
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 8,012Registered Users
    edited January 23

    Is there ANY part of the game you enjoy?

    Most of it actually.

    Now quit following me around and trolling me.

    As an aside, I criticize where it's needed because I care and want the game to improve.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Posts: 2,257Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    Is there ANY part of the game you enjoy?

    Most of it actually.

    Now quit following me around and trolling me.

    As an aside, I criticize where it's needed because I care and want the game to improve.
    This critique is undue.. Mazdamundi's start is rather easy and his start economy is not bad at all.. Yes, there are frozen climate to his North, because you are supposed to expand South with Mazdamundi. Everything is working exactly as intended.
  • ArneSoArneSo Posts: 3,537Registered Users

    Itharus said:

    Is there ANY part of the game you enjoy?

    Most of it actually.

    Now quit following me around and trolling me.

    As an aside, I criticize where it's needed because I care and want the game to improve.
    This critique is undue.. Mazdamundi's start is rather easy and his start economy is not bad at all.. Yes, there are frozen climate to his North, because you are supposed to expand South with Mazdamundi. Everything is working exactly as intended.
    One simple question:

    Is the isthmus of Lustria in ME more beautiful than in the vortex?

    No it definitely isn’t and so is Mazdamundis start in ME less enjoyable than in the Vortex.

    Solution:
    CA should just use the vortex version of Lustria for the final combined map. The vortex map is the perfect representation of the new world.

    ME Lustria just looks ugly and is a mess and needs to be changed.
  • CaesarSahlertzCaesarSahlertz Posts: 2,257Registered Users
    ArneSo said:

    Itharus said:

    Is there ANY part of the game you enjoy?

    Most of it actually.

    Now quit following me around and trolling me.

    As an aside, I criticize where it's needed because I care and want the game to improve.
    This critique is undue.. Mazdamundi's start is rather easy and his start economy is not bad at all.. Yes, there are frozen climate to his North, because you are supposed to expand South with Mazdamundi. Everything is working exactly as intended.
    One simple question:

    Is the isthmus of Lustria in ME more beautiful than in the vortex?

    No it definitely isn’t and so is Mazdamundis start in ME less enjoyable than in the Vortex.

    Solution:
    CA should just use the vortex version of Lustria for the final combined map. The vortex map is the perfect representation of the new world.

    ME Lustria just looks ugly and is a mess and needs to be changed.
    That is nota solution, since that is an impossibility.. This simply cannot happen until game 3. So even entertaining that arguement is folly..
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Posts: 1,936Registered Users
    ArneSo said:

    Itharus said:

    Is there ANY part of the game you enjoy?

    Most of it actually.

    Now quit following me around and trolling me.

    As an aside, I criticize where it's needed because I care and want the game to improve.
    This critique is undue.. Mazdamundi's start is rather easy and his start economy is not bad at all.. Yes, there are frozen climate to his North, because you are supposed to expand South with Mazdamundi. Everything is working exactly as intended.
    One simple question:

    Is the isthmus of Lustria in ME more beautiful than in the vortex?

    No it definitely isn’t and so is Mazdamundis start in ME less enjoyable than in the Vortex.

    Solution:
    CA should just use the vortex version of Lustria for the final combined map. The vortex map is the perfect representation of the new world.

    ME Lustria just looks ugly and is a mess and needs to be changed.
    This is completely missing the previous poster’s point.

    Whether or not the Vortex Lustria is better than the ME Lustria is a completely separate discussion from: Does Mazdamundi have a bad/weak/slow/poor economy/unusually spread out geographically start position.

    ^^the answer to ALL of those questions is “no. Mazdamundi does not. His start position is quite solid.

    Would I like to see something closer to ‘Vortex Lustria’ make it onto the combined map? Of course I would. But even if that never happens, Mazda still has a strong start pos on both maps.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Posts: 6,822Registered Users
    Valkaar said:

    ArneSo said:

    Itharus said:

    Is there ANY part of the game you enjoy?

    Most of it actually.

    Now quit following me around and trolling me.

    As an aside, I criticize where it's needed because I care and want the game to improve.
    This critique is undue.. Mazdamundi's start is rather easy and his start economy is not bad at all.. Yes, there are frozen climate to his North, because you are supposed to expand South with Mazdamundi. Everything is working exactly as intended.
    One simple question:

    Is the isthmus of Lustria in ME more beautiful than in the vortex?

    No it definitely isn’t and so is Mazdamundis start in ME less enjoyable than in the Vortex.

    Solution:
    CA should just use the vortex version of Lustria for the final combined map. The vortex map is the perfect representation of the new world.

    ME Lustria just looks ugly and is a mess and needs to be changed.
    This is completely missing the previous poster’s point.

    Whether or not the Vortex Lustria is better than the ME Lustria is a completely separate discussion from: Does Mazdamundi have a bad/weak/slow/poor economy/unusually spread out geographically start position.

    ^^the answer to ALL of those questions is “no. Mazdamundi does not. His start position is quite solid.

    Would I like to see something closer to ‘Vortex Lustria’ make it onto the combined map? Of course I would. But even if that never happens, Mazda still has a strong start pos on both maps.
    It is worth noting that one thing I noticed playing Mazdamundi and then Ikit in the Vortex campaign is that the terrain in Lustria does seem to favour Skaven over Lizardmen, since there are a lot of barriers to movement that the Skaven can just tunnel under. Some degree of this would probably be expected, but given how many aquatic units the Lizardmen have and their tendency in the fluff to get around via teleportation, I think there'd be an argument for Lizardmen to be able to more easily cross rivers and swamps than most races.

    Or, y'know, give the Geomantic Web something to do by allowing teleportation between loci, but that might be complicated to program and balance.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 8,012Registered Users
    There's a ridiculously large amount of savanna, too. I think less than half the place is jungle, and jungle offers no barriers -- no movement speed penalty, no attrition, nothing...

    Kind of silly.

    Just another incidence of the climate system not being well utilized.
  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Posts: 7,371Registered Users
    Itharus said:

    There's a ridiculously large amount of savanna, too. I think less than half the place is jungle, and jungle offers no barriers -- no movement speed penalty, no attrition, nothing...

    Kind of silly.

    Just another incidence of the climate system not being well utilized.

    Needs moar jungle for sure. On toop of needing more landmass. There's not enough of a feel that Lustria is a big ole heavy jungle.
    Lord of the Undermountain and your friendly neighbourhood giant (Dwarf)
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