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Bretonnia changes summmary for upcomming patches

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  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,370
    Could just watch monsters cycle charge, its even worse and been here for years

    At least watching this is pretty cool with the animation like a final stand
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,009

    Could just watch monsters cycle charge, its even worse and been here for years

    At least watching this is pretty cool with the animation like a final stand

    Same **** to me, this is like static cycle charging but worse since nothing moves and mistakes cannot really be made. This is also tournament legal so you can't make rules to speed it up... Its also harder to avoid by playing the early game differently since foot heroes are small.

    I am not defending cycle charging, but this is even worse imo.
  • MTechMTech Registered Users Posts: 444

    Could just watch monsters cycle charge, its even worse and been here for years

    At least watching this is pretty cool with the animation like a final stand

    Same **** to me, this is like static cycle charging but worse since nothing moves and mistakes cannot really be made. This is also tournament legal so you can't make rules to speed it up... Its also harder to avoid by playing the early game differently since foot heroes are small.

    I am not defending cycle charging, but this is even worse imo.
    And that is an excuse why you let your personal taste influence balance decisions because?

    If that is the only thing your intuition is telling you to be a balance problem in MP your intuition seems to be pretty bad.

    I really despise kiting for example, i find it to be the worst extreme you can achieve with in many cases only 1 Player able to actually play the game (if the other Player did not prepare with just this strategy in mind) while his opponent is in many cases forced to just take it till the kiting has done as much as it can.

    After which in many many cases the one with the kiting force just draws the game if he doesn't think he would win, the same would probably have happened in your video if it would not have been played under tournament rules.

    I don't see how wasting the last minutes running around isn't considered boring but this once in a lifetime occurance is.

    And yes i know that not everyone plays kiting builds just to be on the safe side, it doesn't change it because for me its a bland and boring strategy even if my opponent kindly decides that today he doesn't want to waste 10min of his and my life.

    Atleast versus those things you consider to be a balance problem i showed how its possible to prepare with even the slightest magic change, but if you are not over prepared vs a kiting build nothing would help you if your opponent decides to waste your time.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,009
    Not like that at all. That's your interpretation and it's not near the meaning of my words.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,661



    Here's a public example of what I mean by "boring endgame". At the end you have 4 to 4.5 minutes of gotrek, felix and thorgrim grinding it in a blob out vs 11 or 12 units of various health plus 2 chariots and eventually winning.

    Felix is right there healing them both.....like I have said about a dozen times, let's see Gotrek being the problem. And tbh Thorgrim is the real problem for that Beastmen build Chariots can't do jack to him, and everything he brought is designed to kill infantry, disrupt range, or cycle charge. The Thorgrim/AnvilLord picks do exactly what is intended here, provide a large unit to punish over reliance on cycle charge.

    To avoid more confusion I will be explicit. Let's see an example where Gotrek is the issue without either of the following units being brought with him:

    1. The Fay Enchantress (degeneration aura)
    2. Felix (extremely powerful SE healing)

    So as an example, maybe the build would be Grombrindal + Gotrek + Engi, or Ungrim + Gotrek + Runesmith, or Life prophetess + Henri + Gotrek, or Louen + Gotrek + Beast caster etc etc.

    But no Fay and no Felix.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,661
    Green0 said:

    Anyway, one issue perhaps many don’t mention when discussing Gotrek is that he’s fairly resilient to missile attacks as well.

    I think Sarmatians tested this time ago and found out that due to increased HP and small hitbox, the amount of Waywatcher volleys it takes to kill Gotrek is about the same as what you need to kill Tyrion. If you try to use Glade Guard, on the other hand, due to lower accuracy the number rises yet further and we are looking at ~10-11 volleys to kill Gotrek (that’s vs AI).

    Now imagine in an actual battle, where you will be obstructed and it’s not like you can bring 6x Glade Guard units to deal with Gotrek. Your opponent could also be dodging and terrain might make aiming at Gotrek harder.

    In this case, I sincerely hope that Gotrek is “vulnerable to chaff” as you guys claim (though my intuition days this is a wishful statement, since the guy has 70/50 stats), because if he isn’t, the guy has legitimately no unit that counters him short of winning the rest of the battlefield DECISIVELY (ie playing vs a noob who lets you crush the rest of his army).

    So hopefully Gotrek does get beaten up by Tomb Guard, Stormvermin and similar because nobody is bringing Swordmasters-tier infantry only to beat Gotrek (who incidentally I also don’t expect to do too hot due to 70/50 statline of Gotrek and his AP attacks + animations).

    I don't recall Sarmatians testing so will take your word at the results. But this seems like a very strange test to judge a unit by, firstly using the best AP archers in the game to shoot at 0 armour footlord tells us what exactly? Why bother with the AP?

    And how many glade guard volleys did it take to kill Tyrion in comparison? Seems like an important bit of information missing here.

    And beyond that, is Gotrek really being angled as a good pick to bring against Wood Elves of all factions? I would say that is close to the worst match up you could bring him in, if I'm playing Wood Elves into Bret/EMP I would take seeing Gotrek on the other side of the field any day over an equivalent amount of heavy cav, ditto for Dwarfs and an equivalent amount of xBows/blasting charges/etc. Melee foot characters in general are a horrible pick VS the Wood Elves, Gotrek is an incredibly bad pick here because against any borderline component WE player he won't be able to catch anything.

    Also when I say Gotrek suffers disproportionately to chaff, I'm not talking about units like Tomb Guard/Stormvermin etc. They aren't chaff. I'm talking things like Goblins/skavenslaves/clanrats/swordsmen/spearmen/miners/skellie warriors/marauders/bleak swords/skinks/zombie deckhands/etc.

  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,661
    MTech said:

    @Disposable Hero

    See thats a perfect example of your "Foot Lords should not have influence bias" because had this Beastmen army fought against HE with Star Dragon, Allarielle combo it would have ended the same, even 2 units of DP for 2800 gold would have punished this Beastmen player for not bringing enough counters. (which would be really boring to see)

    Fact is his overinvestment in Chaff, anti infantry and anti range units decided this game from the start, while his opponent simply guessed right that Thorgrim would be able to deal with the Chariots while Felix and Gotrek would deal with the chaff.

    Only the 3 Bestigors had any value against those 4900+ Gold (thank you healing) with the Chariots only adding value against Gotrek and Felix.

    If you want counter examples:
    Simply try what a Gorebull does to Felix, use any of the debuff spells available thanks to Magic, even Ungor Bows can hurt Thorgrim when he has - 30 armour, a Manticor also would have been very effective against Gotrek and Felix even Beastman have a myriad of Options which was simply ignored because Foot Lords do not matter in the minds of most Players.

    Even if its "boring gameplay" for you it doesn't make your opinion the right one.

    Yea I knew how this would end at pick screen when I saw Thorgrim with no Gorebull, Minos, Centigor throwing axes, or razorgors.

    Thorgrim doesn't even start to have his healing cap showing (unlike Felix and Gotrek) which isn't surprising when you bring nothing at all to deal with him. If you had brought a chaos version of the Dwarf build (Kholek, caster, loads of chaos warriors, ror forsaken, hellcannon) against that beastmen build would've been the exact same endgame except with Kholek destroying everything due to no counters.

    Some games go to a grind/cycle charge/kite at the end game when you bring too few counters or have your counters eliminated. Why is eliminate counters and cycle charge a respectable strategy, eliminate counters and kite a respectable strategy, but eliminate counters and grind not a respectable strategy? Cycle charge and kite end games can be just as tedious as grind ones in terms of viewer experience so not sure where the distinction comes from.

    If players don't want to improve their builds to actually account for different unit types, that is a player issue not a balance one.

    And I have no issue at all with cycle charge or kite games either. If you eliminate counters (or your opponent doesn't bring any) you get rewarded has always been how this game works. See no jusitification to neuter a class of units to favour the types of units some players prefer when these builds are perfectly counterable with reasonable build changes (I. E. Less infantry spam, less chariot spam) .

  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,370

    Not like that at all. That's your interpretation and it's not near the meaning of my words.

    It is. Under all those long paragraphs is just that
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,009
    The reason sarmatian tested that I think was in response to eumaies saying that archers is the counter to gotrek. I can only assume he tested ww because they have good enough cal area to hit foot chars better, but the main claim iirc was that vanilla archers was the thing to kill him. I have no strong opinion about that, archers can deal some damage to him but I wouldn't call it efficient.

    The vid was not a balance statement, it was an example of bad TV and an example of what I don't wish the game to be like. Since that has been discussed before this was a good illustration I figured. It's written in the post you quoted but everyone seems to ignore that and just think I need explaining why chiefs build was no good vs heroblob. There is a balance issue to it though and that is that some factions have a really hard time dealing with this even if they know its coming. Especially fey-lix-trek.

    I know you don't like it but gotrek is part of this and he is contributing. Even if he alone does not break things that is not the same as he being balanced at what he does for the cost. There's a reason why you bring gotrek instead of a thane or foot paladin. He does indeed dish out damage faster than other foot heroes or lords. I feel no need to persuade anyone anymore, I have done my tests and found the double hit animations explaining what I see in games. End of story for me.

    I am just tired of people putting words in my mouth.

    I am not glorifying cycle charge or kite end games.

    I agree that for most part good builds can at least stand a decent chance vs all opposing build types. That said, not all factions can really deal with fey-lix-trek and many factions would need to know its coming. That combo is kind of broken imo. Sure felix is dominant we all agree but the way I see it gotrek is not innocent either for the reasons stated at the top.
  • MTechMTech Registered Users Posts: 444
    @Disposable Hero

    On the point of it beeing bad TV.
    You don't have to watch it, honestly i skip most kiting games (and reality tv shows) or do something else if iam watching live streams the same things you could do since its just preference at this point and not balance we are talking about.

    Dealing with fey,felix and gotrek is still easier for all factions then dealing with cycle charge, or kite builds since even basic debuff spells will lead to those 3 getting increased dmg and dealing less in return.

    Its just one build option more you need to be prepared for ( with some factions) with a clear counter in mind just as you would do with VC against WE only not as hard.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,009
    I don't have to watch it and I don't have to play it and neither does anyone else and that's my point. I don't think I am in minority not wishing end games to be like this.

    And I totally disagree it's easier to counter fey-lix-trek than sems for all factions.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,779
    I am not glorifying cycle charge or kite end games.

    You for sure argue against anything and everything that would make these way harder to pull off, so if you are not "glorifying" them you still try your damndest to keep them thriving.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,009
    edited February 7

    I am not glorifying cycle charge or kite end games.

    You for sure argue against anything and everything that would make these way harder to pull off, so if you are not "glorifying" them you still try your damndest to keep them thriving.
    Not true at all. I have argued against some of these suggestions because they were really bad suggestions, but I have argued for models being knocked back a shorter distance and I have argued for knocked down models to get back on their feet faster. I have also actually argued for all fast horse-type or flying-type ranged skirmishers losing ~10% ammo to make kiting armies in general require a little more substance to seal the deal. I don't always agree with Lotus. :smile: But for most part we have a very similar understanding of the balance levels in this game, which is something I take some pride in because I know how much experience he has under his belt.
  • MTechMTech Registered Users Posts: 444

    I don't have to watch it and I don't have to play it and neither does anyone else and that's my point. I don't think I am in minority not wishing end games to be like this.

    And I totally disagree it's easier to counter fey-lix-trek than sems for all factions.

    I dont think i'am in the minority wishing end games to be less dependant on having either range or sems alive.

    If you can't even see how its easier to counter something you can engage on your own terms instead of having to hope for your opponent to screw up i don't need you to agree at all. (it just shows me that your understanding of balance is off)

    You have your own preferences just like everyone else, just stop trying to make it sound like you are the majority leader here.

    There are much less vids on youtube showing someone running away then last stand videos which shows what is considered more fun by the majority.
    And what most people won't even show because of how boring it is.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,622
    What kind of garbage we on now, some stupid lies about some foot heroes being godmode to missiles? like what the zog, if gotrek is "resistant" to missile, then wtf that makes malekith 60% block, 15% missile resist + 20% phy resist. Seriously the low cheap content is getting worse by the day.

    Its pretty amazing how a 0 armor unit can be upramp to high heavens. Gotrek is grossly and stupidly overpriced. Helf archers pay $75 just for 25 armor. This guy has 0 armor while ungrim sits at 120.

    And we r getting elfed here with rubbish about waywatchers shooting at gotrek. So wheres helf archer shooting at gotrek vs helf archers shooting at ungrim?

    Ah yes of coz, always make use of ap on 0 armor units trying to make them sound godlike. Ya always try to pit the most heavily armoured ap guy vs the 0 armour unit doing ap in return. Brilliant minds brings brilliant results.

    Like come on lol, u seriously think Duck & team whose been working on balance for years gonna fall for such idoicy, its rather insulting to the entire community to bring this kind of nonsense to the masses. Cheap and outright foolish arguments that makes no sense whatsoever.
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  • rambotop1playarambotop1playa Registered Users Posts: 54
    yeah i dunno why ppl cry about gotrek felix+fay lul they slow as hell move at snail pace get kited and dies lul
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,009
    yst said:

    What kind of garbage we on now, some stupid lies about some foot heroes being godmode to missiles? like what the zog, if gotrek is "resistant" to missile, then wtf that makes malekith 60% block, 15% missile resist + 20% phy resist. Seriously the low cheap content is getting worse by the day.

    Its pretty amazing how a 0 armor unit can be upramp to high heavens. Gotrek is grossly and stupidly overpriced. Helf archers pay $75 just for 25 armor. This guy has 0 armor while ungrim sits at 120.

    And we r getting elfed here with rubbish about waywatchers shooting at gotrek. So wheres helf archer shooting at gotrek vs helf archers shooting at ungrim?

    Ah yes of coz, always make use of ap on 0 armor units trying to make them sound godlike. Ya always try to pit the most heavily armoured ap guy vs the 0 armour unit doing ap in return. Brilliant minds brings brilliant results.

    Like come on lol, u seriously think Duck & team whose been working on balance for years gonna fall for such idoicy, its rather insulting to the entire community to bring this kind of nonsense to the masses. Cheap and outright foolish arguments that makes no sense whatsoever.

    It's nothing strange at all because size matters. Anyone who tells you differently just tries not to hurt your feelings. :smile:

    It's not even my discussion, but the reason sarmatian posted this is that he is correct in saying that archers are not a very efficient counter to foot lords even if they are unarmored. You can deal damage for sure, but it takes time and wastes ammo. I repeated it just in case:

    HE archers vs Gotrek (small, no armor): 98.6 damage per volley
    HE archers vs Mazamundi on Zlaaq (large, 130 armor): 198 damage per volley

    and as comparison, the reason WW was tested is that they have the cal area to actually connect with small stuff. For example:

    WW vs Gotrek: 278 damage per volley

    So, being small is in this case twice as effective as being large and armored when it comes to not taking damage from vanilla archers. He is not immune, you can kill him with 45 full health vanilla archer volleys but it takes a lot of time. Inside infantry it will take even more. So it's not a very effective way to deal with even an unarmored foot character early game.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,622
    edited February 7

    It's not even my discussion, but the reason sarmatian posted this is that he is correct in saying that archers are not a very efficient counter to foot lords even if they are unarmored.

    Thats pretty much end of discussion. If all footlords r bs targets, uve to wonder wth ppl singles out gotrek to be elf'ed. Answers the whole rubbish argument; moot point.

    Its pretty cute that none of these ppl dare put some facts about say flaggelants vs gotrek, as oppose to flaggelants vs tyrion or ungrim. Oh thats right, that would show 0 armour wouldnt it. No way, gotta find some cute missilesizefiresmalltargetvsbigtargetrubbush argument to elf gotrek
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,009
    yst said:

    It's not even my discussion, but the reason sarmatian posted this is that he is correct in saying that archers are not a very efficient counter to foot lords even if they are unarmored.

    Thats pretty much end of discussion. If all footlords r bs targets, uve to wonder wth ppl singles out gotrek to be elf'ed. Answers the whole rubbish argument; moot point.

    Its pretty cute that none of these ppl dare put some facts about say flaggelants vs gotrek, as oppose to flaggelants vs tyrion or ungrim. Oh thats right, that would show 0 armour wouldnt it. No way, gotta find some cute missilesizefiresmalltargetvsbigtargetrubbush argument to elf gotrek
    Dunno what you're on about, this was I think sarmatians reply to eumaies when he was saying archers was the counter to gotrek. It doesn't mean anything else.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,017
    Please no more jumping through subjects. Gotrek was being compared against other armored foot lords. Where did Mazda on Zloaq come from. Obviously ranged counters SEM's better than SEP(erson)'s since forever.

    And considering their total healthpools not bad at all for Mazda.
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  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,661
    edited February 8



    You should start using your intuition because there is no equation that will give you a 1 or a 0 saying if something is balanced or not. There are too many parameters, units, factions, scenarios, play styles, rule sets, skill levels, maps and whatnot. And then there's animations on top...

    yst said:

    Thats pretty much end of discussion. If all footlords r bs targets, uve to wonder wth ppl singles out gotrek to be elf'ed. Answers the whole rubbish argument; moot point.

    Its pretty cute that none of these ppl dare put some facts about say flaggelants vs gotrek, as oppose to flaggelants vs tyrion or ungrim. Oh thats right, that would show 0 armour wouldnt it. No way, gotta find some cute missilesizefiresmalltargetvsbigtargetrubbush argument to elf gotrek

    Sorry YST, but I think this is just you not listening to your balancing intuition.

    What you need to do is open the game, then after selecting Gotrek start comparing him to other units by hovering over their unit cards. Hover over each unit in turn and eventually when you hover over a particular unit, you will feel your intuition kick in, telling you that THIS is the relevant unit for comparison. This feels different for different people, for some people it is a hunch in their gut, for some others maybe their nose will start wiggling, but for me I start to get a strong tingling sensation in my balls.

    When I first saw Gotrek being compared to Mazdamundi on Zlaaq, my head told me the units are too radically different along too many parameters to be a comparison that would tell us anything of value. They seemed so different after all, infantry VS large, low mass VS High mass, low armour VS high armour, one not included in the CA SEM cap VS one being included in the SEM cap, one with no non-localised affects or abilites VS on being one of the best casters in the game with bound AOE defense items, a great spell kit, and bound spells.

    But when I actually went into the game and did the testes tingle testing and hovered over Mazda on Zlaaq while selecting Gotrek, my balls began to vibrate with such intensity that I was concerned that they may have been about to hatch (sorry ladies) and spawn two small Orklads, who I would have to carry around as the proverbial Angel and Devil on my shoulders (one would give me good balance suggestions and one would give me bad balance suggestions).

    Anyway no time to waste, need to log back in and start testing how the different artillery crews perform when dismounted from their pieces and fighting against Chosen. My balls are tingling already.....
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,622
    By grimnirs beard ure right, i must test got-rekt vs rockets and tyrion on malhandir vs rocket and see who destroys them first

    That would settle this got-rekt elfing once and for all
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  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,009
    OrkLads said:



    You should start using your intuition because there is no equation that will give you a 1 or a 0 saying if something is balanced or not. There are too many parameters, units, factions, scenarios, play styles, rule sets, skill levels, maps and whatnot. And then there's animations on top...

    yst said:

    Thats pretty much end of discussion. If all footlords r bs targets, uve to wonder wth ppl singles out gotrek to be elf'ed. Answers the whole rubbish argument; moot point.

    Its pretty cute that none of these ppl dare put some facts about say flaggelants vs gotrek, as oppose to flaggelants vs tyrion or ungrim. Oh thats right, that would show 0 armour wouldnt it. No way, gotta find some cute missilesizefiresmalltargetvsbigtargetrubbush argument to elf gotrek

    Sorry YST, but I think this is just you not listening to your balancing intuition.

    What you need to do is open the game, then after selecting Gotrek start comparing him to other units by hovering over their unit cards. Hover over each unit in turn and eventually when you hover over a particular unit, you will feel your intuition kick in, telling you that THIS is the relevant unit for comparison. This feels different for different people, for some people it is a hunch in their gut, for some others maybe their nose will start wiggling, but for me I start to get a strong tingling sensation in my balls.

    When I first saw Gotrek being compared to Mazdamundi on Zlaaq, my head told me the units are too radically different along too many parameters to be a comparison that would tell us anything of value. They seemed so different after all, infantry VS large, low mass VS High mass, low armour VS high armour, one not included in the CA SEM cap VS one being included in the SEM cap, one with no non-localised affects or abilites VS on being one of the best casters in the game with bound AOE defense items, a great spell kit, and bound spells.

    But when I actually went into the game and did the testes tingle testing and hovered over Mazda on Zlaaq while selecting Gotrek, my balls began to vibrate with such intensity that I was concerned that they may have been about to hatch (sorry ladies) and spawn two small Orklads, who I would have to carry around as the proverbial Angel and Devil on my shoulders (one would give me good balance suggestions and one would give me bad balance suggestions).

    Anyway no time to waste, need to log back in and start testing how the different artillery crews perform when dismounted from their pieces and fighting against Chosen. My balls are tingling already.....
    That's at least a bit whitty!

    The amount of effort people put into trying to make personal attacks is what makes this place so lovely. Imagine if you spent that energy on good willed comprehension instead.
  • MTechMTech Registered Users Posts: 444
    @OrkLads

    My Intuition tells me Elf crews > Dwarf=Emp > VP i only slightly based this on looking at the difference in Speed giving the Elfs more time before the Chosen catch up.
  • MTechMTech Registered Users Posts: 444
    @Disposable Hero
    Could we test Mazda on Zloag vs chaff infantry now and after that 1v1 fights with unmounted Lords, but before that we kite him with Skavenslave slingers?

    Would that help to show how OP Zloag is?🤔

    Wow there are so many fun ways to test things and put them into completely different contexts.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,009
    It's just an illustration of armor vs size, if you fail to comprehend that I don't know if there is any help to be had. Just keep trying I guess.

    I am pretty sure the BRET mains don't really consider peasant archers a good counter to stegadons, that's why they ask for more ap/al tools in this very thread, but at least it's a bit more effective than peasant archers vs gotrek. Again, this was a discussion between eumaies and sarmatian that others brought up here. Do what you want with it.
  • Meteor18Meteor18 Registered Users Posts: 93
    This whole discussion is beyond ridiculous. Someone claims foot characters are not strong versus missiles (he calls it garbage), another person responds him with some data and then a whole bunch of people jump on him all trying to be funny.

    Anyway if it takes 45 volley from regular archers to kill Gotrek in vacuum, then archers are not an efficient counter to him.
  • MTechMTech Registered Users Posts: 444
    edited February 8
    Meteor18 said:

    This whole discussion is beyond ridiculous. Someone claims foot characters are not strong versus missiles (he calls it garbage), another person responds him with some data and then a whole bunch of people jump on him all trying to be funny.

    Anyway if it takes 45 volley from regular archers to kill Gotrek in vacuum, then archers are not an efficient counter to him.

    2 Units of HE Archers can kill full health Gotrek with all items and his wardsave used on max range thats 950g taking out 1800g if that is not a very cost effective counter then there is not a single one in the game.
    Tyrion survives and wipes the floor with those Archers.

    @Disposable Hero
    Its a meaningless illustration, and a meaningless test and i really don't know how to explain to you that Gotrek isn't comparable to a large unit also do you really expect that 300-400g should wipe him out in 1min?
    I can try and explain to you that for the disadvantage of getting more dmg through range, large units have more hitpoints and are not susceptible to beeing blocked and surrounded by chaff and infantry.

    But if i have to explain basics from the game its starting to get really annoying.
  • Meteor18Meteor18 Registered Users Posts: 93
    Gotrek is not 1800, he is 1100 and I believe some Dwarf players have argued that his Items are not worth bringing. Two unit of HE archers can't shoot him unimpeded for an entire match , and needless to say their efficiency drops in real match compare to vacuum. This is also beside the fact you can heal Gotrek within all three factions. Comparison with Tyrion is silly, nobody ever claimed that basic archers are a counter for Tyrion.
  • MTechMTech Registered Users Posts: 444
    Meteor18 said:

    Gotrek is not 1800, he is 1100 and I believe some Dwarf players have argued that his Items are not worth bringing. Two unit of HE archers can't shoot him unimpeded for an entire match , and needless to say their efficiency drops in real match compare to vacuum. This is also beside the fact you can heal Gotrek within all three factions. Comparison with Tyrion is silly, nobody ever claimed that basic archers are a counter for Tyrion.

    Who would bring Gotrek without items?
    Who are those players that have argued against his self heal?
    Are you making stuff up?

    How are they shooting Zloag unimpeded but not Gotrek and what would Tyrion do if shot at?

    How is Gotrek going to achieve all his favourable 1v1s in a real battle if you can not be expected to shoot at him unimpeded?

    You can heal Tyrion and Zloag as well and please don't try to change the subject to healing again because healing is too strong not just for Gotrek but for every SE Char/Monster.

    See its just silly jumping from one thing to another without making any point.
This discussion has been closed.