Welcome

Please register for Total War Access to use the forums. If you're an existing user, your forum details will be merged with Total War Access if you register with the same email or username. For more information please read our FAQ’s here.

Categories

Forgotten heroes

MTechMTech Registered Users Posts: 446
Clan Angrund has 4 unique hero options which CA seems to be perfectly fine about without many changes.

In the same timespan the regular Master Engineer, Runesmith and Thane had a few changes.

Thane: -100g, +5MA, +5MD, +10 Base Damage, + 15 AP Damage and +5CB.
None of those changes had any impact on the price and stats of Halkenhaf Stonebeard and King Lunn Ironhammer.
Both of them are 500g more then the Thane.

Runesmith: +50g, -2MD.
Throni only got the -2MD, seems his price was considered to be high enough.
450g more then regular Runesmith.

Master Engineer: -150g some range attack adjustments with Gunnery wight release.
Dramar got adjusted the most with -100g and the same range attack adjustment.
450g more then regular ME.

There is no reason to consider one of them to be ok at this price, all were created with game 1 in mind yet the price did stay the same since their release.
While the trade for 75% phys res is nice and the added fear/terror very strong (though limited because its only a 32 speed platform) the loss of 1000+ hp,120 armour, 25% magic resist and 15% missile resist does not warrant their base price to be so much higher.
Just to compare at the release of TWW the Thane was 800g and the Runesmith 1150g now they are 500g and 600g.

Some suggestions and fun suggestions:

Halkenhaf and Ironhammer: -200g, which would leave them both at 800g also +10 Base Damage and +15 AP Damage.
Fun suggestion: Mostly item swaps to give them something unique over regular Thanes.
Maybe a ghost version of the Hammer of Angrund for King Lunn its his Hammer afterall.
Not sure about Halkenhaf, maybe frostbite attacks or the old itemisation the thane had.

Throni Ironbrow: -150g, would leave him at 850g.
Fun suggestion: Ancestor rune of wrath and ruin, just for him revert this rune back to either TWW1 version or the one from
TWW2 release whatever is easier to do.
Would really love Ancestor versions of his other runes as well but they didn't have that many changes. :)

Dramar Hammerfist: -150g, 900g after this change.
Fun suggestion: Its great that he has magic range attacks now, can't really think of something else.

Please feel free to add any other heroes CA seems to have forgotten about.



Comments

  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,536
    Cost reductions seem a fine way to help, but they should be accessible to the main dwarf faction.
  • MTechMTech Registered Users Posts: 446
    Loupi_ said:

    Cost reductions seem a fine way to help, but they should be accessible to the main dwarf faction.

    I had not even thought about that, thank you for adding it.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,956
    yeah these guys are wayyyyyyy overpriced.

  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Registered Users Posts: 161
    This main faction thing really hurts as dorfs so brets right now,
    HE as well with the dryads... And Vcoast
    Any other faction has all its options viable by the main faction
    There should be the same rule for every factions
    We are talking about tier2 factions so it wont cause any commotion imo
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,672
    Loupi_ said:

    Cost reductions seem a fine way to help, but they should be accessible to the main dwarf faction.

    Tbh I quite like the proliferation of subfactions with unique units. It seems to enhance gameplay more than hinder it imo, you get more limited lord choices but get compensated by having additional unit choices. Playing against Avelorn/Followers of Nagash/Pirates of Sartosa/Clan Angrund etc can almost feel like a different matchup.

    If anything I would like it to be expanded upon so that more subfactions had unique pros/cons to bringing them. So the Bloody Handz might get a discount on Savage Orcs, or the Cult of Pleasure might get a discount on Death Hags or w/e. Another example is Nagarythe could be given the Hand of the Shadow Crown as a usable hero for just them, and then once HE get their generic caster lords Nagarythe would be a really cool and different choice.

    For Clan Angrund specifically, I think they would be a much better pick if they were priced appropriately. This problem also affects The Drowned imo, Pirates of Sartosa are often seen to bring the Sartosan Militias, but noone ever takes the Drowned to bring Damned Paladins. They could use a cost decrease too imo. Or any of these suggestions by @MTech also seem like interesting options.
  • GriffithxiGriffithxi Registered Users Posts: 597
    To me they really need to use the model from the recent DLC for all secondary factions where each one should have access to at least 1 of the legendary lords from the main faction....that would be a good start at least.
    One of the reasons secondary factions don't get used as much imo is because it telegraphs a little too much as far as your options for Lord/unit choices.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 488
    I think it's fitting that these guys are in a subfaction. An entire army with magic resistance that can field heroes that you can almost only kill with magic deserves a warning for the opponent. They're indeed a bit weak though for their cost.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 1,828
    OrkLads said:

    Loupi_ said:

    Cost reductions seem a fine way to help, but they should be accessible to the main dwarf faction.

    Tbh I quite like the proliferation of subfactions with unique units. It seems to enhance gameplay more than hinder it imo,
    Same here, subfactions should be the way to go as long as they are appropriately fleshed out. E.g.
    • Empire Provinces led by their unique counts like Boris and Middenland units
    • Main Skaven Clans
    • Chaos god specific armies
    • Greenskins tribe variants
    However these ghost heroes doesn't offer enough diversity to be isolated in a subfaction. Especially when you pick Clan Angrund, you literally scream about them.


    I think it's fitting that these guys are in a subfaction. An entire army with magic resistance that can field heroes that you can almost only kill with magic deserves a warning for the opponent. They're indeed a bit weak though for their cost.

    Magic resistance is overrated against spells. A lateral amber spear can still delete your Ironbreakers or Wind of Death can decimate your spaghetti lines. Not to mention it has zero effect on debuffs afaik.
  • Odysseus95Odysseus95 Registered Users Posts: 89
    I'm also in favour of keeping them sub-faction unique. Sub-faction units are a great way to spice up the game. It's a good of example of balanced design, in my opinion. Give and take. Cost reductions seem like a reasonable first pass.
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 120

    I'm also in favour of keeping them sub-faction unique. Sub-faction units are a great way to spice up the game. It's a good of example of balanced design, in my opinion. Give and take. Cost reductions seem like a reasonable first pass.

    It's only 'give and take' if the sub-faction can compete with the main faction. Sartosa, Nagash and Avelorn have enough new options that their limited lord choices are mitigated. But The Drowned, Chevaliers and Angrund are hurt really badly by how predictable they (in comparison with their main factions).

    In the case of Bretonnia and Dwarves, both of those factions are so limited that I believe their sub faction units should be rolled into the main faction. Both Henri and the ethereal Dwarves would dramatically improve their faction's competitiveness.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,627

    Magic resistance is overrated against spells. A lateral amber spear can still delete your Ironbreakers or Wind of Death can decimate your spaghetti lines. Not to mention it has zero effect on debuffs afaik.

    Yea pretty much that, it seems to just affect dmg. In which if its high enough, it will still kill models, ie u still get splat by foot of gork. U can debuff them to death and theres nothing they can do about it. Unlike all other factions with spells capability u can always counteract those with your own spells.
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,956
    yst said:

    Magic resistance is overrated against spells. A lateral amber spear can still delete your Ironbreakers or Wind of Death can decimate your spaghetti lines. Not to mention it has zero effect on debuffs afaik.

    Yea pretty much that, it seems to just affect dmg. In which if its high enough, it will still kill models, ie u still get splat by foot of gork. U can debuff them to death and theres nothing they can do about it. Unlike all other factions with spells capability u can always counteract those with your own spells.
    Yeah in practice it's basically like having some oddball bonus like fire resistence for your whole army. Handy sometimes, but mostly useless.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,536
    eumaies said:

    yst said:

    Magic resistance is overrated against spells. A lateral amber spear can still delete your Ironbreakers or Wind of Death can decimate your spaghetti lines. Not to mention it has zero effect on debuffs afaik.

    Yea pretty much that, it seems to just affect dmg. In which if its high enough, it will still kill models, ie u still get splat by foot of gork. U can debuff them to death and theres nothing they can do about it. Unlike all other factions with spells capability u can always counteract those with your own spells.
    Yeah in practice it's basically like having some oddball bonus like fire resistence for your whole army. Handy sometimes, but mostly useless.
    It doesn't protect units very much vs high dps spells like amber spear etc (but units still take less damage than without it) but the most noticeable situation where it has big impact is in duels with characters/monsters with magic attacks e.g archaon, durthu and vs missile units with magic damage.
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,956
    Loupi_ said:

    eumaies said:

    yst said:

    Magic resistance is overrated against spells. A lateral amber spear can still delete your Ironbreakers or Wind of Death can decimate your spaghetti lines. Not to mention it has zero effect on debuffs afaik.

    Yea pretty much that, it seems to just affect dmg. In which if its high enough, it will still kill models, ie u still get splat by foot of gork. U can debuff them to death and theres nothing they can do about it. Unlike all other factions with spells capability u can always counteract those with your own spells.
    Yeah in practice it's basically like having some oddball bonus like fire resistence for your whole army. Handy sometimes, but mostly useless.
    It doesn't protect units very much vs high dps spells like amber spear etc (but units still take less damage than without it) but the most noticeable situation where it has big impact is in duels with characters/monsters with magic attacks e.g archaon, durthu and vs missile units with magic damage.
    absolutely. thats what i mean its more like an arbitrary one off bonus in some matchups. Anyway its stronger for sure than fire resistence but just kind of oddball as a trait and not especially a response to not having magic.

    it's fun and thematic but just not really what i think they thought they were doing when they established it.
  • WitchbladeWitchblade Registered Users Posts: 488
    eumaies said:



    Yeah in practice it's basically like having some oddball bonus like fire resistence for your whole army. Handy sometimes, but mostly useless.

    That's the most biased thing I've read this week. You can see just how much 20% damage (physical) resistance matters for dragon princes and many units that have Dodge. Do some tests with windblast and units that deal magic damage and you'll see how significantly magic resistance affects many match-ups.

  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 4,956

    eumaies said:



    Yeah in practice it's basically like having some oddball bonus like fire resistence for your whole army. Handy sometimes, but mostly useless.

    That's the most biased thing I've read this week. You can see just how much 20% damage (physical) resistance matters for dragon princes and many units that have Dodge. Do some tests with windblast and units that deal magic damage and you'll see how significantly magic resistance affects many match-ups.

    yes it's an exaggeration. But it mostly changes which spells work against you, it doesn't change that magic can be equally effective against the faction.

    also, wind blast mostly does less damage because of all the armour. Try thunderbolt if you want to kill dwarves.
  • AWizard_LizardAWizard_Lizard Registered Users Posts: 1,022
    edited February 8

    eumaies said:



    Yeah in practice it's basically like having some oddball bonus like fire resistence for your whole army. Handy sometimes, but mostly useless.

    That's the most biased thing I've read this week. You can see just how much 20% damage (physical) resistance matters for dragon princes and many units that have Dodge. Do some tests with windblast and units that deal magic damage and you'll see how significantly magic resistance affects many match-ups.

    I wanted to comment on this but you got there first. Exaggeration, but pretty telling of the situation. Magic resistance affects the most what should have been affecting less if at all (magic attacks), and affects less what should have been affecting most (spells).
    Karaz-a-Karak Discord server
  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 1,828
    edited February 8

    eumaies said:



    Yeah in practice it's basically like having some oddball bonus like fire resistence for your whole army. Handy sometimes, but mostly useless.

    That's the most biased thing I've read this week. You can see just how much 20% damage (physical) resistance matters for dragon princes and many units that have Dodge. Do some tests with windblast and units that deal magic damage and you'll see how significantly magic resistance affects many match-ups.

    I wanted to comment on this but you got there first. Exaggeration, but pretty telling of the situation. Magic resistance affects the most what should have been affecting less if at all (magic attacks), and affects less what should have been affecting most (spells).
    Exactly what i've been thinking. In campaign for example, when Wurrzag gets magic damage for his whole army, suddenly his army becomes less effective against dwarfs. Why though? Because choppas and clubs aren't choppas and clubs anymore without the enhancement?

    Maybe magical attacks and spells should have seperate resistances?

    It's also equally confusing for magical attacks to bypass physical resistance that is stemming from the "dodge" aka the physical prowess of a unit. Could make sense for ethereal units like syreens to bypass it (ethereal attacks?), but not so much for something like Hammerers who still need to make a physical contact for the magic of their rune hammers to work.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,536
    eumaies said:

    Loupi_ said:

    eumaies said:

    yst said:

    Magic resistance is overrated against spells. A lateral amber spear can still delete your Ironbreakers or Wind of Death can decimate your spaghetti lines. Not to mention it has zero effect on debuffs afaik.

    Yea pretty much that, it seems to just affect dmg. In which if its high enough, it will still kill models, ie u still get splat by foot of gork. U can debuff them to death and theres nothing they can do about it. Unlike all other factions with spells capability u can always counteract those with your own spells.
    Yeah in practice it's basically like having some oddball bonus like fire resistence for your whole army. Handy sometimes, but mostly useless.
    It doesn't protect units very much vs high dps spells like amber spear etc (but units still take less damage than without it) but the most noticeable situation where it has big impact is in duels with characters/monsters with magic attacks e.g archaon, durthu and vs missile units with magic damage.
    absolutely. thats what i mean its more like an arbitrary one off bonus in some matchups. Anyway its stronger for sure than fire resistence but just kind of oddball as a trait and not especially a response to not having magic.

    it's fun and thematic but just not really what i think they thought they were doing when they established it.
    Yeah it feels very wrong to me. Magic weapons shouldn't be less effective vs dwarfs, but magic damage spells should be less effective.

    But I think we are getting off topic now, so back to forgotten heroes:

    -the waystalker arguably has the single worst item in the game -6% weapon damage in small area on a ranged hero is ridiculous. It should be replaced by a loecs shroud ability that can be cast on allies.

    -Gorebull has been flying for years now, which is a shame because he is very good otherwise. Really needs a proper fix rather than continually adding mass.

    -Loremaster needs some lore passives, beast and light would be my picks.

    -Handmaidens could use a little more penetration or accuracy.

    -Shadowdancer hero is still invisible and has no unit card, making her very difficult to bring in an army :wink:

    - khainite assassin's Black Dragon egg needs big buffs.

    - unicorn mounts for spellsingers and damsels are an awful choice. They are far too expensive for their stats. They should have the same speed as their cheaper steed mounts and have higher AP values (unicorn horns).

  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,380

    I'm also in favour of keeping them sub-faction unique. Sub-faction units are a great way to spice up the game. It's a good of example of balanced design, in my opinion. Give and take. Cost reductions seem like a reasonable first pass.

    Subfaction should be more unique for factions that have 2 dlcs. Those main factions should have less units in QB/multi though.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,672
    edited February 9
    Loupi_ said:

    eumaies said:

    Loupi_ said:

    eumaies said:

    yst said:

    Magic resistance is overrated against spells. A lateral amber spear can still delete your Ironbreakers or Wind of Death can decimate your spaghetti lines. Not to mention it has zero effect on debuffs afaik.

    Yea pretty much that, it seems to just affect dmg. In which if its high enough, it will still kill models, ie u still get splat by foot of gork. U can debuff them to death and theres nothing they can do about it. Unlike all other factions with spells capability u can always counteract those with your own spells.
    Yeah in practice it's basically like having some oddball bonus like fire resistence for your whole army. Handy sometimes, but mostly useless.
    It doesn't protect units very much vs high dps spells like amber spear etc (but units still take less damage than without it) but the most noticeable situation where it has big impact is in duels with characters/monsters with magic attacks e.g archaon, durthu and vs missile units with magic damage.
    absolutely. thats what i mean its more like an arbitrary one off bonus in some matchups. Anyway its stronger for sure than fire resistence but just kind of oddball as a trait and not especially a response to not having magic.

    it's fun and thematic but just not really what i think they thought they were doing when they established it.
    Yeah it feels very wrong to me. Magic weapons shouldn't be less effective vs dwarfs, but magic damage spells should be less effective.

    But I think we are getting off topic now, so back to forgotten heroes:

    -the waystalker arguably has the single worst item in the game -6% weapon damage in small area on a ranged hero is ridiculous. It should be replaced by a loecs shroud ability that can be cast on allies.

    -Gorebull has been flying for years now, which is a shame because he is very good otherwise. Really needs a proper fix rather than continually adding mass.

    -Loremaster needs some lore passives, beast and light would be my picks.

    -Handmaidens could use a little more penetration or accuracy.

    -Shadowdancer hero is still invisible and has no unit card, making her very difficult to bring in an army :wink:

    - khainite assassin's Black Dragon egg needs big buffs.

    - unicorn mounts for spellsingers and damsels are an awful choice. They are far too expensive for their stats. They should have the same speed as their cheaper steed mounts and have higher AP values (unicorn horns).

    Waystalker: While I agree this is probably the worst item in the game (or close to it) I don't think giving the Scroll of Lykos to the Waystalker is the way to go. There is already plenty of stalk in the WE roster, and the Waystalker is already able to have a considerable impact at range with Arrow of Kurnous + a great ranged attack. It should stay as some sort of AOE centred on the Waystalker, or something that could buff the Waystalkers combat stats in some way for a brief period.

    Gorebull: Agreed.

    Loremaster: Not sure about which passive would be best, but he should get a couple.

    Handmaidens: I find these girls to be excellent, even if they do sometimes miss shots. But they have good penetration already + magic/AP attacks, think they are fine as is.

    Shadowdancer: There is specualtion that the FLC could be WE content. Maybe a date with a Shadowdancer could be in the offing....

    Khainite Assassin: Yea, needs some sort of buff. It is full AP though, so not as bad as it seems, just requires different targets to generate value compared to Fiery ring/Skabskrath.

    Unicorn mounts: These need a small buff for Bretonnia but definitely don't need a buff for Wood Elves. Maybe even a nerf. Not sure why, but for Damsels a Unicorn compared to a damsel horse is +40% magic resist, + 417 hp, + 8MA, +5CB. But for the Spellsingers it gives +417hp, +40% magic resist, -16 speed (which takes it to 78 which is same as Damsel) +7MA, +10CB, & Fear. Getting fear (and immunity to it) is pretty excellent at 300 price point on top of all the other perks, atm the Unicorn mount is undercosted for WE.

    The Fay's unicorn is different from those two as well. As fast as Elven steed (+1 quicker) but retains other bonuses. I think the Unicorn mounts in general need a look, they seems to be very inconsistent in what they do and don't give.

    EDIT: looking again I don't know if they need nerfs, but why a unicorn causes fear for Spellsingers and not for Damsels is a bit weird. Fay has fear at base so assume that is why she has it, so not sure what the intent is here.
    Post edited by OrkLads on
  • another505another505 Registered Users Posts: 1,380
    Fay has fear in TT
    She is a scary lady that her stares can kill ppl iirc thats her reasoning

    Shes a medusa LOL
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 4,031
    Loupi_ said:


    -Handmaidens could use a little more penetration

    I am not sure if this is in agreement with the code of conduct, but I like it!

    A bit skeptical to stalk that can be cast on other units. Self-only is not problems.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,536

    Loupi_ said:


    -Handmaidens could use a little more penetration

    I am not sure if this is in agreement with the code of conduct, but I like it!

    A bit skeptical to stalk that can be cast on other units. Self-only is not problems.
    Hahaha no comment.

    It's only single target, and it makes total sense for woodelves to have some way to stalk with units other than archers for a short time. Really wood elves should probably have had a melee stalk unit like the other stealth/ambush races like Skaven and beastmen, even nagarythe has one with shadow walkers.
  • SarmatiansSarmatians Registered Users Posts: 3,356
    edited February 10
    Shadowdancer hero would be great addition, especially if it comes in 2 variants (BvI and BvL). Permanent stalk anti infantry hero with AP and Lore of Shadows would be great vs dwarfs for instance. Add a lot of melee oomph and reinvigorate the matchup a bit.
    eumaies said:

    yst said:

    Magic resistance is overrated against spells. A lateral amber spear can still delete your Ironbreakers or Wind of Death can decimate your spaghetti lines. Not to mention it has zero effect on debuffs afaik.

    Yea pretty much that, it seems to just affect dmg. In which if its high enough, it will still kill models, ie u still get splat by foot of gork. U can debuff them to death and theres nothing they can do about it. Unlike all other factions with spells capability u can always counteract those with your own spells.
    Yeah in practice it's basically like having some oddball bonus like fire resistence for your whole army. Handy sometimes, but mostly useless.
    It is a far cry from "mostly useless". In fact, it is useful all the time, as it severely limits opponent's option.
  • Loupi_Loupi_ Registered Users Posts: 1,536
    OrkLads said:



    Khainite Assassin: Yea, needs some sort of buff. It is full AP though, so not as bad as it seems, just requires different targets to generate value compared to Fiery ring/Skabskrath.

    Its pretty trash, it says its good vs armour but its damage is incredibly low.
Sign In or Register to comment.