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Miners & Warp Grinders

OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,652
Miners are a bit of an odd duck unit in the Dawi roster atm. They are cheap, and pay for AP, Armour, Vanguard, which means that they are virtually useless in combat due to very low MA and MD. The blasting charge variant are of course very useful and a staple of the Dwarf roster, but it still feels strange to have Dwarfs be able to go so wide.

The new unit Warp-Grinders for the Skaven are interesting in that they have a bound AOE net, that enables them to pin enemy units in place. This is obviously a classic weakness of the Dwarfs, and one that has led to all sorts of controversial balancing changes in order to mitigate it (very high mass for Dwarf infantry, undercosted units of various levels, Rune of Wrath and Ruin, Tormentor's sword on Thanes).

What if Miners were given some equivalent of the Warp-Grinder AOE net ability as well as a boost to their melee stats and a significant cost increase (at least 325 ->500/600, and 425->600/700, but these figures would need to be higher or lower depending on exactly what was done)? Btw I don't mean give them the AOE damage one, just the lock in place one. It could also be some variation on this ability, not necessarily the exact same one.

This seems like it would work around a few of the Dwarf balancing difficulties in a somewhat thematic way, while compensating for their loss of the ability to spam cheaper chaff by giving them a tool to protect their backline/vangaurd/flanks.

The reason I think this could be a potentially good idea is:
1. It would mean that buffs to miners to make them more of a sidegrade to Dwarf Warriors/DW GW wouldn't make these units redundant. Nets have diminishing returns, and the player would have to decide how many they would need, similar to how it is now with Rune of Wrath and Ruin.
2. Would allow Runelords/Runesmiths to move away from being slowbots and being given some of their damage prowess back. The old direct damage rune was never something I much liked, so hopefully Rune of wrath and ruin could be offensive in another way that gives more counterplay. (Or maybe leaving this as a slow would be the best call, no strong opinion on this)
3. Miners would now be able to support vanguard forces in more interesting ways than just spam the hell out of them and hope the massive surprise hit will take your opponent down.
4. It would allow the Dwarfs to have their mass nerfed. At the moment Dwarf mass is a necessary evil, but it overly hampers the use of cavalry against the Dwarfs as a side effect of preventing Chariots & SEMs from wrecking them with ease. They could still have higher average mass than other infantry, but at the moment the mass in combination with the magic resist & armour can make the options to use against Dwarfs feel a little limited.

Potential Concerns would be:
1. Would the Dwarfs become overpowered if they could reliably net units in place? While this is a possibility, I think that as long as they are costed appropriately this wouldn't be a problem. Trapping something is only half the battle, you also need to do damage to it.
2. Would it be too hard to escape Dwarf units once caught? This is why nerfs to Dwarf mass would be a part of this rebalancing. By offering Dwarfs guaranteed net options, you could them make the entire army less of a pseudo-net through their mass.
3. Would it become too hard for Dwarfs to clear chaff without blasting charges? While this is a concern, I think with the use of Irondrakes, Flame Cannons, Gyrobomber bombs, and rebalancing the offensive stats of some other Dwarf units (LB GW) this wouldn't be too much of an issue. There will also be future content for Dwarfs which could help here a little too.

So what do you reckon, worth considering?

Comments

  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,435
    edited February 11
    OrkLads said:


    So what do you reckon, worth considering?

    Would be extremely OP. I think you had forgot times when dawi did had AOE net(and it was not cheap at all, 600 gold thane plus price of sword). You had taken double thanes every game despite cost. And dawi of that times quite lacked other slow options plus mass of dawi infantry was lower.
  • ReymReym Registered Users Posts: 512
    what makes warpgrinder somewhat balanced is that they are very easy to kill and are useless without their abilities up. Will miners be useless without their abilities ? No since they are a large unit of infantry that can block stuff.
    Are they very easy to kill ? Neither
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,652
    tank3487 said:

    OrkLads said:


    So what do you reckon, worth considering?

    Would be extremely OP. I think you had forgot times when dawi did had AOE net(and it was not cheap at all, 600 gold thane plus price of sword). You had taken double thanes every game despite cost. And dawi of that times quite lacked other slow options plus mass of dawi infantry was lower.
    I wasnt around for thanes having tormentor sword, so yea my knowledge here is all based on replays. And i supoose the fact they were removed from Thane is pretty telling.

    But I do think the mass Dwarfs have is a bit too aggressively anti-Cavalry. Having more localised effects seem a better bet, and miners are a unit that is in a bad spot in terms of design and role once the blastint charges have been thrown.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,652
    Reym said:

    what makes warpgrinder somewhat balanced is that they are very easy to kill and are useless without their abilities up. Will miners be useless without their abilities ? No since they are a large unit of infantry that can block stuff.
    Are they very easy to kill ? Neither

    Yea fair point, and i am proposing buffs for the base unit as well. What if it was a single shot ability instead of having recharge? Or maybe 2 charges so like a Sister of Thorn esque unit?
  • rymeintrinsecarymeintrinseca Registered Users Posts: 750
    Just in logical terms it doesn't make sense. Miners lack the exotic tech of warp grinders and simply hitting the ground with a pickaxe certainly doesn't freeze everyone around you in place.
  • MTechMTech Registered Users Posts: 444
    From a logical term steam drills are what skaven based their warp grinders on.

    Certainly introducing Miners with steam drills would be better.
    With that unit added you could give Miners stats and cost appropriate for a DW GW unit with different specialization and adjust mass on units.

  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 3,997
    My favorite idea for miners would be if you deployed them hidden with full vanguard, but immobile until you burst their cover, at which point they appear using the clan rat summon animation from the ground.

    I think the main reason for dawi having less cc than skaven even though both are strong ranged factions is to a large part because the dawi are all armored and have high LD, so they have a different vulnerability profile than skaven has.

    I am not sure if the tormentor sword was removed solely because it was too strong in the roster (you could bring 2), or it was also because it was a dawi sword..... or a combination. They moved the main slows/snares from hero slots to the lord slot though so that's some hint that it was a balance decision.
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,652

    My favorite idea for miners would be if you deployed them hidden with full vanguard, but immobile until you burst their cover, at which point they appear using the clan rat summon animation from the ground.

    I think the main reason for dawi having less cc than skaven even though both are strong ranged factions is to a large part because the dawi are all armored and have high LD, so they have a different vulnerability profile than skaven has.

    I am not sure if the tormentor sword was removed solely because it was too strong in the roster (you could bring 2), or it was also because it was a dawi sword..... or a combination. They moved the main slows/snares from hero slots to the lord slot though so that's some hint that it was a balance decision.

    Yea that would be pretty sweet, I could get on board with that although they would need to be able to move before being revealed otherwise they wouldn't have much use at all in the many maps that only allow corner deployment in the back. And it would mean that Dwarf forces with Miners wouldn't even be able to reposition slightly without wasting a big part of the unit. But one shot stalk does seem like a potentially good option for them.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Registered Users Posts: 1,819
    It's a shame that regular Miners are such a chaff. They were literally same as DWGW in combat on TT, with added utility like underground advance. They even costed more. In the game they have artillery crew stats that can't even beat Peasant men at arms.


    some equivalent of the Warp-Grinder AOE net ability


    This would be fitting for Miners with Steam Drills.
  • sonofabhorashsonofabhorash Registered Users Posts: 161
    No more nets please
    One of the laziest design locking down expensive unit and shooting blasting whatever it to pieces
    Dorfs are badly designed due to mass abuse and once they loose their ranged units they become a laughing stock trying to catch enemys mobile units
    Dont get me wrong i would love them to be a faction to play against FUN , but its too late im afraid
    Good faction fot single tho
  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,241
    edited February 11

    No more nets please
    One of the laziest design locking down expensive unit and shooting blasting whatever it to pieces
    Dorfs are badly designed due to mass abuse and once they loose their ranged units they become a laughing stock trying to catch enemys mobile units
    Dont get me wrong i would love them to be a faction to play against FUN , but its too late im afraid
    Good faction fot single tho

    kind agree here, i don't like to see more roots in this game. Espcially on a chaff unit.
  • tank3487tank3487 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,435
    edited February 11
    OrkLads said:


    I wasnt around for thanes having tormentor sword, so yea my knowledge here is all based on replays. And i supoose the fact they were removed from Thane is pretty telling.

    I just say that without all mass on dawi infantry(it is significant difference i believe some units got mass trippled). Without strong slows from runes. Without Giant Slayers and with Slayers being more costly. Just 2 Thanes(that were taken only for this AOE net) were enough to make dawi competitive pick(with just 1 it is not so impressive of course, so depend on tournament rules).
    So such additions to current much stronger dawi would be simply OP. And additions that it seem would cost less than old thane+tormentor.

    With Skavens it is less OP simply due to how easy to rout or kill Warp Grinders.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 3,997
    OrkLads said:

    My favorite idea for miners would be if you deployed them hidden with full vanguard, but immobile until you burst their cover, at which point they appear using the clan rat summon animation from the ground.

    I think the main reason for dawi having less cc than skaven even though both are strong ranged factions is to a large part because the dawi are all armored and have high LD, so they have a different vulnerability profile than skaven has.

    I am not sure if the tormentor sword was removed solely because it was too strong in the roster (you could bring 2), or it was also because it was a dawi sword..... or a combination. They moved the main slows/snares from hero slots to the lord slot though so that's some hint that it was a balance decision.

    Yea that would be pretty sweet, I could get on board with that although they would need to be able to move before being revealed otherwise they wouldn't have much use at all in the many maps that only allow corner deployment in the back. And it would mean that Dwarf forces with Miners wouldn't even be able to reposition slightly without wasting a big part of the unit. But one shot stalk does seem like a potentially good option for them.
    Dunno how good it would be, but my original idea wasn't to have stalked miners running with rangers, but rather have them truly unspottable even if you stand on top of them until they burst cover and spawn like a summon. It would in other words function like a ground-bound (deployed) summon without a timer in terms of game mechanics. It just would feel very right with me to have living spawn enter the battlefield like that, I think originally I thought about it this way regarding skaven summons way back. It could be useful for putting unexpected close range pressure on enemy archers or artillery. It could be a new unit type so that you don't have to have all miners function that way.

    Just a bit of a wild thought that will probably never happen....
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 22,729

    No more nets please
    One of the laziest design locking down expensive unit and shooting blasting whatever it to pieces
    Dorfs are badly designed due to mass abuse and once they loose their ranged units they become a laughing stock trying to catch enemys mobile units
    Dont get me wrong i would love them to be a faction to play against FUN , but its too late im afraid
    Good faction fot single tho

    Oh, they fixed collision physics and high-mass, high mobility units no longer inifnitely counter all troops on foot? Hmm, NOPE!

    So, more roots and slows are in order until CA finally gets that infinite counters are a bad thing and need to be nerfed hard.

  • Godefroy_de_BouillonGodefroy_de_Bouillon Registered Users Posts: 2,241

    No more nets please
    One of the laziest design locking down expensive unit and shooting blasting whatever it to pieces
    Dorfs are badly designed due to mass abuse and once they loose their ranged units they become a laughing stock trying to catch enemys mobile units
    Dont get me wrong i would love them to be a faction to play against FUN , but its too late im afraid
    Good faction fot single tho

    Oh, they fixed collision physics and high-mass, high mobility units no longer inifnitely counter all troops on foot? Hmm, NOPE!

    So, more roots and slows are in order until CA finally gets that infinite counters are a bad thing and need to be nerfed hard.
    rotfl, i don't think AI is that though to beat anyway xD
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 8,274

    OrkLads said:

    My favorite idea for miners would be if you deployed them hidden with full vanguard, but immobile until you burst their cover, at which point they appear using the clan rat summon animation from the ground.

    I think the main reason for dawi having less cc than skaven even though both are strong ranged factions is to a large part because the dawi are all armored and have high LD, so they have a different vulnerability profile than skaven has.

    I am not sure if the tormentor sword was removed solely because it was too strong in the roster (you could bring 2), or it was also because it was a dawi sword..... or a combination. They moved the main slows/snares from hero slots to the lord slot though so that's some hint that it was a balance decision.

    Yea that would be pretty sweet, I could get on board with that although they would need to be able to move before being revealed otherwise they wouldn't have much use at all in the many maps that only allow corner deployment in the back. And it would mean that Dwarf forces with Miners wouldn't even be able to reposition slightly without wasting a big part of the unit. But one shot stalk does seem like a potentially good option for them.
    Dunno how good it would be, but my original idea wasn't to have stalked miners running with rangers, but rather have them truly unspottable even if you stand on top of them until they burst cover and spawn like a summon. It would in other words function like a ground-bound (deployed) summon without a timer in terms of game mechanics. It just would feel very right with me to have living spawn enter the battlefield like that, I think originally I thought about it this way regarding skaven summons way back. It could be useful for putting unexpected close range pressure on enemy archers or artillery. It could be a new unit type so that you don't have to have all miners function that way.

    Just a bit of a wild thought that will probably never happen....
    I loke this idea so long as say they automatically come out 10min into the game if the playrr didnt do it earlier otherwise people could burry 10 and just draw kite for trollinh reasons.
  • Disposable HeroDisposable Hero Registered Users Posts: 3,997

    OrkLads said:

    My favorite idea for miners would be if you deployed them hidden with full vanguard, but immobile until you burst their cover, at which point they appear using the clan rat summon animation from the ground.

    I think the main reason for dawi having less cc than skaven even though both are strong ranged factions is to a large part because the dawi are all armored and have high LD, so they have a different vulnerability profile than skaven has.

    I am not sure if the tormentor sword was removed solely because it was too strong in the roster (you could bring 2), or it was also because it was a dawi sword..... or a combination. They moved the main slows/snares from hero slots to the lord slot though so that's some hint that it was a balance decision.

    Yea that would be pretty sweet, I could get on board with that although they would need to be able to move before being revealed otherwise they wouldn't have much use at all in the many maps that only allow corner deployment in the back. And it would mean that Dwarf forces with Miners wouldn't even be able to reposition slightly without wasting a big part of the unit. But one shot stalk does seem like a potentially good option for them.
    Dunno how good it would be, but my original idea wasn't to have stalked miners running with rangers, but rather have them truly unspottable even if you stand on top of them until they burst cover and spawn like a summon. It would in other words function like a ground-bound (deployed) summon without a timer in terms of game mechanics. It just would feel very right with me to have living spawn enter the battlefield like that, I think originally I thought about it this way regarding skaven summons way back. It could be useful for putting unexpected close range pressure on enemy archers or artillery. It could be a new unit type so that you don't have to have all miners function that way.

    Just a bit of a wild thought that will probably never happen....
    I loke this idea so long as say they automatically come out 10min into the game if the playrr didnt do it earlier otherwise people could burry 10 and just draw kite for trollinh reasons.
    Yeah, good point, that would need solving. Also, it could just have negative effect on gameplay by giving incentive to camp in order to make the fight happen where you want... Not without issues for sure, just a thematic idea i think.
  • ystyst Registered Users Posts: 6,614
    Just start the game 180s unspottable, thats good enough
    https://imgur.com/a/Cj4b9
    Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
  • ThibixMagnusThibixMagnus Registered Users Posts: 458
    it would be for sure interesting to make normal miners worth 500, so Dawi feel roughly as elite as high elves in terms on numbers instead of relying on a horde of disposable miners to slow the enemy while you blast them all ...

    They would need additional utility to compensate their lower numbers and then even lower crowd control. You could combine both of the above suggestions.

    1. Make miners vanguard without zone restriction, unmovable and unspottable until they deploy through the skaven tunnel animation. Currently much easier to code as a hero-tied ability summon with no decay costing 500 to equip, otherwise you run into weird collision issues while not spotted.

    2. the summon triggers a variant of the warp grinders ability, like the dreaded 13 have an AoE effect. It is a one use, so it mitigates the fact that miners are numerous and more combat capable than warp grinders.

    On a side note, the warp grinder abilities are a visual improvement for earthquake-style abilities that could be used for Rune of wrath and ruin. Making it AoE would make it more powerful, but also a bit more skill-based as it targets ground. It could also be used for ruination of cities to make it more reliable.
  • Mogwai_ManMogwai_Man Registered Users Posts: 3,096
    Don't you know you can't ask for creative dwarf changes?
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 120
    Miners with Drills were in tabletop and should be a separate unit entirely.
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