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Hard to Get Excited About WH3

Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 23,908
Every faction and character I care about is in WH1+2. WH3 holds very little for me to get excited about and that almost all down to Chaos Dwarfs, but I can live without them just fine as well. Ogre Kingdoms I never found anything endeating about, for me they're just pink, overgrown Greenskins with half the appeal. Their theme being gluttony...whatever. Daemons of Chaos I never liked, they just should have never been made into a separate armybook in the first place because I find the faction just doesn't work this way. Kislev, if they're faction #4, what exactly is their selling point? Ice Magic and bear cav or whatever don't look like much considering what the WH1+2 factions have already thrown at the player. DoW...Empire but with pikes and less gunpowder and maybe with some units scavanged from other rosters, bleh. Even worse if they're realised as hordes. CIN, don't even get me started of how little appeal those have with their facelessness and absolute irrelevance.

Also the setting, the Darklands and Chaos Wastes will be, well, wasteland, so lots of brown and grey, flat featureless plains. After the lush greens of Lustria, the Southlands and Ulthuan or the snowy landscapes of Naggaroth (tree visibility issues notwithstanding), that's a serious step down.

From a faction and setting POV WH3 is a hard-sell. Even if CA greatly improves upon mechanics and stuff, it still means I'll wait until the combined Grand Campaign is in implemented because I have such a hard time caring for the leftovers this will launch with.

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Comments

  • CrossilCrossil Registered Users Posts: 6,787
    edited February 28
    I'm just here hoping I get to fight in the Garden of Nurgle, made manifest upon the mortal plain of the Northern Chaos Wastes. With a full on Nurglite army, that is.
    UNLEASH THE EVERCHARIOT
  • GamgeeGamgee Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,902
    It depends on if they add Kislev and or the Far East. If they do add even just Cathay it’s a much better sell.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,438
    Gamgee said:

    It depends on if they add Kislev and or the Far East. If they do add even just Cathay it’s a much better sell.

    That would be a nice surprise.

    Although I've been looking at the Chaos Death Guard on the WH website, makes me want a well done Nurgle faction. Also from what I've heard of the lore, Nurgle followers have a right laugh.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 23,908
    Gamgee said:

    It depends on if they add Kislev and or the Far East. If they do add even just Cathay it’s a much better sell.

    Cathay I can't just build up any enthusiasm about. Since that faction has basically no real history and was completely irrelevant throughout WHFB's run, I have nothing to look forward to. If I hear "Dragon Emperor" or "Monkey King" or "Great Bastion", they sound just like the kind of thing a western guy would make up about any "fantasy China", too generic.

  • AkiAmazAkiAmaz Registered Users Posts: 335
    Not knowing much about the game its hard to call. We can (and do) make assumptions though and opinions are based on them. For me, I'm looking forward to it, both in terms of a stand alone campaign and what it should bring to a richer grand campaign.

    I've had my full of LP, the only one that has resulted in my completing a campaign in WH2 with the new content was H&B because the lizard horde felt like a new race and the Empire was almost a single LL race pack because it did introduce a new race to WH2.

    TK and VP were both the best content for WH2.

    Roll on WH3, but no rush. I've found the no confed mod coupled with the mod which introduces faction bias (-ive diplomatic modifiers) when you capture land belonging to that wider faction to be a refresh to the game - diplomacy (DA and MA) actually matters now. Plus I'm having a blast playing Witcher 3 😀. Finally the GS rework should be fun and the new LL in WH2 will give it more life.

    So, CA, take your time, sort the existing issues out and make WH3 the top tier of the cake with an 8 pointed star on the top.
  • VoxofWarVoxofWar Member Registered Users Posts: 252
    All I care is Kislev. And beside that, only for the new enemies to fight...

    I want to avert the End Times Helves, Empire, Dwarfs, Kislev ...
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,438

    Gamgee said:

    It depends on if they add Kislev and or the Far East. If they do add even just Cathay it’s a much better sell.

    Cathay I can't just build up any enthusiasm about. Since that faction has basically no real history and was completely irrelevant throughout WHFB's run, I have nothing to look forward to. If I hear "Dragon Emperor" or "Monkey King" or "Great Bastion", they sound just like the kind of thing a western guy would make up about any "fantasy China", too generic.
    That's what Games workshop does. Marco Columbo? The great explorer. Every faction is a national cliché. As many people have already said, Cathay does have a history all the way up to the End Times, that isn't an argument against. The only argument is the amount of work, in terms of design CA would have to put in. Fact is if WH3 had Cathay in that would certainly be a plus for me, certainly more interesting than Kislev.
  • Xalek96Xalek96 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 322
    Im hoping for a full Tzeentch army with the chosen and flamers etc, or Khorne with Valkia the bloodied, game 3 with the daemons of chaos has a chance to be extremely artistically pleasing and exotic, the possibly as someone said of fights in certain plains of the chaos realm etc, even with the chaos dwarfs or Ogre Kingdoms, im in the same boat in that I have my fav chars in the game, "true phoenix king Malekith hell yeah" , but just look as everything coming as a completion of what you already enjoy, and more things for your fav race or Character to conquer !



  • ArneSoArneSo Registered Users Posts: 6,641
    I‘m very excited for WH3!
    - Kislev
    - DoW
    - Ogres
    - Chaos Dwarfs
    - New IE map
    - Full continents
    - Tons of crossovers
  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 4,711
    Gamgee said:

    It depends on if they add Kislev and or the Far East. If they do add even just Cathay it’s a much better sell.

    Hard to get excited about Cathay when the only lore about it is just bland and very uninspired Not China. There is nothing to make Cathay appealing, the few people excited about it see in Cathay what they want to see and that's it.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,438
    neodeinos said:

    Gamgee said:

    It depends on if they add Kislev and or the Far East. If they do add even just Cathay it’s a much better sell.

    Hard to get excited about Cathay when the only lore about it is just bland and very uninspired Not China. There is nothing to make Cathay appealing, the few people excited about it see in Cathay what they want to see and that's it.
    Well of course, we see what we want to see, we see a faction that CA can be creative with. I sometimes this people who see Kislev and DoW has a major/interesting faction having a helluva imagination as they both seem pretty tedious to me.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 23,908

    Gamgee said:

    It depends on if they add Kislev and or the Far East. If they do add even just Cathay it’s a much better sell.

    Cathay I can't just build up any enthusiasm about. Since that faction has basically no real history and was completely irrelevant throughout WHFB's run, I have nothing to look forward to. If I hear "Dragon Emperor" or "Monkey King" or "Great Bastion", they sound just like the kind of thing a western guy would make up about any "fantasy China", too generic.
    That's what Games workshop does. Marco Columbo? The great explorer. Every faction is a national cliché. As many people have already said, Cathay does have a history all the way up to the End Times, that isn't an argument against. The only argument is the amount of work, in terms of design CA would have to put in. Fact is if WH3 had Cathay in that would certainly be a plus for me, certainly more interesting than Kislev.
    Yes it is an argument. They were never relevant, never interacted with anyone and never did anything of importance, so they don't have anything but being "fantasy China" going for them and that's just not enough.

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,438

    Gamgee said:

    It depends on if they add Kislev and or the Far East. If they do add even just Cathay it’s a much better sell.

    Cathay I can't just build up any enthusiasm about. Since that faction has basically no real history and was completely irrelevant throughout WHFB's run, I have nothing to look forward to. If I hear "Dragon Emperor" or "Monkey King" or "Great Bastion", they sound just like the kind of thing a western guy would make up about any "fantasy China", too generic.
    That's what Games workshop does. Marco Columbo? The great explorer. Every faction is a national cliché. As many people have already said, Cathay does have a history all the way up to the End Times, that isn't an argument against. The only argument is the amount of work, in terms of design CA would have to put in. Fact is if WH3 had Cathay in that would certainly be a plus for me, certainly more interesting than Kislev.
    Yes it is an argument. They were never relevant, never interacted with anyone and never did anything of importance, so they don't have anything but being "fantasy China" going for them and that's just not enough.
    They were always relevant, they existed in novels and the army books, they helped to make the trading nations wealthy in the Old World, they created Clan Eshin, who then decided the Skaven civil War, they created the Ogre's modern culture/religion and are one of the few factions who can hold of a Chaos invasion without help. That's slightly more than a fantasy China? Right? Like the southern Realms is more than a Fantasy Spain/Italy? Bretonnia, more than a fantasy France/England?
  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Registered Users Posts: 1,188
    @davedave1124
    "they existed in novels and the army books"
    ->they never had an army book and even in the novels they were just footnotes

    "they helped to make the trading nations wealthy in the Old World"
    ->again just a footnote, nothing with substance

    "they created Clan Eshin"
    ->it was just said that clan eshin came from cathay. We don't know anything other than that

    "they created the Ogre's modern culture/religion"
    ->this is just a speculation in the lore and never proven

    "one of the few factions who can hold of a Chaos invasion without help"
    ->every named faction has hold of a chaos invasion in the lore. Most of the time they defeat no name Chaos Lords.


    All the examples you gave are at best just slight mentionings in the lore of other races. There is no real background, no characters and no lasting effect on the rest of the world.

    I don't really care anymore if cathay comes, as long as first all other proper faction will be implemented.
    But saying Cathay was in any way relevant is stretched a bit far.
  • KiknyaKiknya Registered Users Posts: 28
    I broadly agree but the Chaos Dwarves are pretty sweet; them and the Daemons are the only factions I'm really interested in (and I agree that the DoC should be merged with the WoC like it used to be).
  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Registered Users Posts: 1,188
    Regarding the topic.
    I am excited to play demons and chaos dwarfs, I must say I am one of the people who wnat mono gods.^^

    OK and Kislev seem a bit boring for me right now but that could change once we see how they are implemented.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,438
    "they existed in novels and the army books"
    ->they never had an army book and even in the novels they were just footnotes


    Never said they did.

    "they helped to make the trading nations wealthy in the Old World"
    ->again just a footnote, nothing with substance


    A meaningless point. Cathay isn't mentioned in footnotes, references are usually part of the main text. This argument was about the relevance of Cathay in the Old World in terms of lore. They made the trading nations rich.

    "they created Clan Eshin"
    ->it was just said that clan eshin came from cathay. We don't know anything other than that


    This is wrong.

    "they created the Ogre's modern culture/religion"
    ->this is just a speculation in the lore and never proven


    It was never proven that Snikch killed the character he did.. it was just rumour.

    "one of the few factions who can hold of a Chaos invasion without help"
    ->every named faction has hold of a chaos invasion in the lore. Most of the time they defeat no name Chaos Lords.


    The usually work in teams, Chaos invasion affect everyone. Cathay built a construct that practically nullified invasions. Cathay managed to fight of a major invasion but was finally beaten due to a 3 pronged attack.

    No real effect? Again.. based on you giving incorrect information.

    Of all of Clan Eshin's warriors, though, the assassins are the most feared and reviled. These Skaven are masters in all of the techniques learned in distant Cathay and bring to bear an incredible array of fighting techniques that allow them to eclipse the greatest human killers. [1a]

    Warhammer Fantasy Role-playing Game 2nd Edition -- Children of the Horned Rat (RPG)
    1a: pp. 45 - 46
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,438
    Kiknya said:

    I broadly agree but the Chaos Dwarves are pretty sweet; them and the Daemons are the only factions I'm really interested in (and I agree that the DoC should be merged with the WoC like it used to be).

    I'm hoping you can play a daemon faction, beat the other 3 and then create Chaos Undivided.
  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Registered Users Posts: 1,188
    @davedave1124
    Cathay is mentioned in one ore two sentences in the lore texts of OTHER races. Maybe not a footnote by definition but not really more than that.

    "This is wrong."
    This is right. If not, who trained them? who were their contacts? What factions in cathay did they deal with? It is just the info that they learned their skills in cathay, nothing more.

    "It was never proven that Snikch killed the character he did.. it was just rumour."
    Where is your prove that cathay did it? You have none, I thought so...

    Even the invasion that was stopped by cathay broke through the great bastion. It was said that deep in the lands the chaos forces were plundering...


    So the greatest feat of cathay, helping create clan eshin, is nothing more than a slight mentioning. Speaking of rich lore...

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,438
    edited February 28
    Cathay is mentioned in one ore two sentences in the lore texts of OTHER races. Maybe not a footnote by definition but not really more than that.

    Probably more than 1 or 2 sentences.

    This is right. If not, who trained them? who were their contacts? What factions in cathay did they deal with? It is just the info that they learned their skills in cathay, nothing more.

    The strongest school of magic appears to be Astromancy - Dragon Emperor Xen Huong had a coven of astromancers already circa -2750 IC, and they were so powerful that some credit them with the summoning of the warpstone meteor that crashed in the Ogre homelands and created the Great Maw.[10a][16d][17a] Celestial Magic is still important in the Empire of the Celestial Dragon, as the Tower of Ashshair kept watch for signs and portents of woe and threats from distant lands, and when it was attacked by Sayl the Faithless around 2509, his vanguard forces were crushed under a comet brought down by magical means.[18b]

    Tamurkhan: The Throne of Chaos.
    18a pg. 24
    18b pg. 25


    PSA

    Even the invasion that was stopped by cathay broke through the great bastion. It was said that deep in the lands the chaos forces were plundering...

    They didn't 'break through' an earthquake caused the Great Bastion to break at certain points. They blunted a major invasion on their own that they had no warning of.

    I see you've realised you're wrong about Clan Eshin's connection to Cathay.
  • RichardNRoundRichardNRound Registered Users Posts: 864
    Why do people talk about Cathay as a generic fantasy china faction like it's something we always see in a strategy game. I love warhammer, but aloy of it is generic buy still brilliant. Beastmen are generic fantasy beast creatures, bretonnia is generic medieval fantasy and tomb kings are generic Egyptians. high elves dark elves, wood elves and dwarves are all generic. The entire point 9f human factions is they take real world history and mythology and blend them together. But, they're still all interesting factions that are fun to play.
  • ValkaarValkaar Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,076
    Very few things could get me to pre-order Game 3 to play it upon launch. A well done Kislev/Cathay would do the trick. Nagash/Neferata or some sort of UNIQUE Undead might also do the trick. But even these would need some major mechanical overhauls/potential for unique gameplay to justify a full $60 price tag.

    Daemons/Chaos Dwarfs/Ogres hold very little interest for me.

    Don't get me wrong...I WILL eventually get Game 3. If for no other reason than to replay some of my favorite races, such as the Lizardmen, on a new map with new opponents to fight. Especially if some of the old Game 1/2 Races get additional reworks/FLC/cross-over packs.

    ^^But if that's the primary appeal, then I can only justify getting Game 3 months after launch, hopefully during a sale or something.

    So yeah....I'm currently on the fence as well. But I'm not disappointed or upset. Whether I wait for a sale or buy at launch, I'm sure I'll have fun and get my hours-per-dollar spent at a good value for me with the game.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,438

    Why do people talk about Cathay as a generic fantasy china faction like it's something we always see in a strategy game. I love warhammer, but aloy of it is generic buy still brilliant. Beastmen are generic fantasy beast creatures, bretonnia is generic medieval fantasy and tomb kings are generic Egyptians. high elves dark elves, wood elves and dwarves are all generic. The entire point 9f human factions is they take real world history and mythology and blend them together. But, they're still all interesting factions that are fun to play.

    For sure, a Chinese fantasy faction would be the most unique faction in your average western fantasy.

    Generic BM.. Imagine if a Narnia fan ended up in the WH world, they'd be killed on the first day, mistaking friendly Narnians for BM..
  • RikisRikis Registered Users Posts: 1,276
    I'm actually more excited about WH 3 factions then what we got in 2s base factions, which only the skaven peeked my interest at the start. Elves I don't care for and lizardmen I had a hard time connecting with. Although both dlc races are my favorite factions in the game.

    If we get Kislev, Ogres, daemons and chaos dwarfs I'll be a happy man.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,438
    Valkaar said:

    Very few things could get me to pre-order Game 3 to play it upon launch. A well done Kislev/Cathay would do the trick. Nagash/Neferata or some sort of UNIQUE Undead might also do the trick. But even these would need some major mechanical overhauls/potential for unique gameplay to justify a full $60 price tag.

    Daemons/Chaos Dwarfs/Ogres hold very little interest for me.

    Don't get me wrong...I WILL eventually get Game 3. If for no other reason than to replay some of my favorite races, such as the Lizardmen, on a new map with new opponents to fight. Especially if some of the old Game 1/2 Races get additional reworks/FLC/cross-over packs.

    ^^But if that's the primary appeal, then I can only justify getting Game 3 months after launch, hopefully during a sale or something.

    So yeah....I'm currently on the fence as well. But I'm not disappointed or upset. Whether I wait for a sale or buy at launch, I'm sure I'll have fun and get my hours-per-dollar spent at a good value for me with the game.

    If it contains the CDs and Ogres that could well be enough for me to pre-order. The only way I wouldn't pre-order is if they go crazy and just have the 4 DoC as the starting factions.
  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Registered Users Posts: 1,188
    edited February 28
    @davedave1124
    And what is wrong with my statement? I asked you what is known about their connection besides that Eshin comes from there? You provided a summary about the magic of cathay that has nothing to do with eshin.

    The invasion still destroyed huge parts of their lands, but the funny part is that in all this huge battles there is not one named character. It is not even described in detail, that shows what a sidenote Cathay plays.
    We can go the other way, what are the famous battles won at the bastion?
    Remove this building from the setting and the rest of the world wouldn't even notice.







  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 3,048

    Valkaar said:

    Very few things could get me to pre-order Game 3 to play it upon launch. A well done Kislev/Cathay would do the trick. Nagash/Neferata or some sort of UNIQUE Undead might also do the trick. But even these would need some major mechanical overhauls/potential for unique gameplay to justify a full $60 price tag.

    Daemons/Chaos Dwarfs/Ogres hold very little interest for me.

    Don't get me wrong...I WILL eventually get Game 3. If for no other reason than to replay some of my favorite races, such as the Lizardmen, on a new map with new opponents to fight. Especially if some of the old Game 1/2 Races get additional reworks/FLC/cross-over packs.

    ^^But if that's the primary appeal, then I can only justify getting Game 3 months after launch, hopefully during a sale or something.

    So yeah....I'm currently on the fence as well. But I'm not disappointed or upset. Whether I wait for a sale or buy at launch, I'm sure I'll have fun and get my hours-per-dollar spent at a good value for me with the game.

    If it contains the CDs and Ogres that could well be enough for me to pre-order. The only way I wouldn't pre-order is if they go crazy and just have the 4 DoC as the starting factions.
    Yes i agree with you, 4 daemon races is three too many at beginning.
    The only thing that at that point might sway my decision will be a full combined map.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • PdcGunnerPdcGunner Registered Users Posts: 381
    Just wait for the first trailer and the hype train will depart.
  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,438
    Again:

    Of all of Clan Eshin's warriors, though, the assassins are the most feared and reviled. These Skaven are masters in all of the techniques learned in distant Cathay and bring to bear an incredible array of fighting techniques that allow them to eclipse the greatest human killers. [1a]

    Warhammer Fantasy Role-playing Game 2nd Edition -- Children of the Horned Rat (RPG)
    1a: pp. 45 - 46


    Do you need me to explain the above? How it relates to Clan Eshin learning the secret arts of Cathay? Impacting Clan Eshin's ability to impact on the Skaven civil war?

    The invasion still destroyed huge parts of their lands, but the funny part is that in all this huge battles there is not one named character. It is not even described in detail, that shows what a sidenote Cathay plays.
    We can go the other way, what are the famous battles won at the bastion?
    Remove this building from the setting and the rest of the world wouldn't even notice.


    Yes.. a major invasion, that would destroy many parts of Empire or any other major faction. The Great Basiton? The only advantage Cathay has to take on Chaos?

    Cathayan armies are exceptionally powerful; but then they have to be, for the Cathayan fight not only against rampaging Hobgoblins, Chaos Marauders and jungle primitives, but also the might of the island race of Nippon.[1o]

    That's.. exceptionally powerful.. (to a greater degree than normal; unusually.)

  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,438

    Valkaar said:

    Very few things could get me to pre-order Game 3 to play it upon launch. A well done Kislev/Cathay would do the trick. Nagash/Neferata or some sort of UNIQUE Undead might also do the trick. But even these would need some major mechanical overhauls/potential for unique gameplay to justify a full $60 price tag.

    Daemons/Chaos Dwarfs/Ogres hold very little interest for me.

    Don't get me wrong...I WILL eventually get Game 3. If for no other reason than to replay some of my favorite races, such as the Lizardmen, on a new map with new opponents to fight. Especially if some of the old Game 1/2 Races get additional reworks/FLC/cross-over packs.

    ^^But if that's the primary appeal, then I can only justify getting Game 3 months after launch, hopefully during a sale or something.

    So yeah....I'm currently on the fence as well. But I'm not disappointed or upset. Whether I wait for a sale or buy at launch, I'm sure I'll have fun and get my hours-per-dollar spent at a good value for me with the game.

    If it contains the CDs and Ogres that could well be enough for me to pre-order. The only way I wouldn't pre-order is if they go crazy and just have the 4 DoC as the starting factions.
    Yes i agree with you, 4 daemon races is three too many at beginning.
    The only thing that at that point might sway my decision will be a full combined map.
    I honestly think that was the original plan until they realised they wanted to extend the scope of the game. Would've been less painful if it had come out a year after game 2, if they did it now though or in a year I think it'd be a disaster for the game.
    PdcGunner said:

    Just wait for the first trailer and the hype train will depart.

    I'm seriously ready for game 3 now.. tired of all the guesswork.
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