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Some observations over the balance patch

RewanRewan Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 3,327
edited March 11 in General Discussion
So I suppose nothing is definitive as of now but some key points I could tell :

- Cavalry seems to be faster now (especially in the case of Light Cav), in the Let's Play by SmartDonkey you can tell that Cavalry is still S tier material (because well yeah, same old reasons, they are the best hammer for an anvil)

- Horse Pasture nerfed. From 5/10/14/18/20% to 2/4/6/8/10%. I personnally think it's a bit on the heavy handed side for the nerf, 2/4/6/10/15% would have felt better (to emphasize the research over the base value the building gives you)

- Crossbows range decreased to 200. It's not 150 but I'll take it, 250 was really overkill now it definitely feels like the Archer/Crossbow comparison is now tighter.

- Some armor ancillaries have seen the Wu Xing points augmented. (Especially light/medium armour as far as I could tell ?). While I appreciate the increase in the Wu Xing points I believe it's missing the point that Light/Medium armour should give a raw stat to compensate for the lower armour rating (say : 10% Melee Evasion for Light Armour and 5% Melee Evasion for Medium Armour). Also it seems we still have ancillaries (Heavy armours) that reduce Wu Xing - which I don't like.

- Overall it seems we also have much more variations with career effects (be it the amount of Wu Xing and scope of effects), I'm not sure I like that as I believe streamlining makes it easier to balance. But why not.

- Interestingly enough I couldn't help but notice that Chen Gong didn't seem to have the usual Attack speed debuff of Strategists - but Diao Chan still did. I kinda hope CA offs that debuff entierely for all characters, as they should off the Yellow Turbans Melee Defence and Attack Speed debuffs.

- And it seemed to me that the recruitment costs of faction unique units is down compared to before. Which is great if it confirms itself.


Thanks to WhiskeyJack for reminding me of the following as well since I forgot (oops) :

- Population increase now gives Bonus Income from all sources from Bonus Income from peasentry, also increases the amount of food the province produces. Overall I think it's a pretty big buff for all cities, however I wonder about peasentry income as it seems it's the big looser (but perhaps there are more factors that make Peasentry better)


Another thing that was forgotten, my bad.

- Demand Abdication is back - which indicates that CA recognized the issue was a bug. However I couldn't see the "Confederate" option that should be in the same area (even if greyed out since only unlocked at King's rank). Unfortunate as Confederating was the counter to vassals.



11/03 EDIT :

- Bandits are now their own cultural group which means no more Confederation/Unification with them apparently.
Post edited by Rewan on

Comments

  • Whiskeyjack_5691Whiskeyjack_5691 Registered Users Posts: 3,794
    Not sure how I feel about the Horse Pastures changes. They definitely needed it, but I think you'll now need to get them to level 5 before you start seeing some real value from them, and that requires a lot of time and investment. Glad they got nerfed though.

    I like the change to crossbows and archers. Crossbows also had their arc-of-fire tweaked; they need a clear line-of-sight on their target now and can no longer fire at an 80-degree angle and still land their shots.
    I also heard that archers were better against cavalry now. Not sure what the rational for that was, but hey.

    I've only seen two examples of changes to armors (both in Donkey's livestream), but I don't think the changes are very substantial. They need a lot more work I think.
  • KirkwaldKirkwald Registered Users Posts: 947
    Rewan said:


    - And it seemed to me that the recruitment costs of faction unique units is down compared to before. Which is great if it confirms itself.

    Upkeep also. Lu Bu's camp crushers cost the same as jian sword guards and considering they can go toe to toe with imperial sword guards and defenders of heaven, they'll no doubt be a popular pick.
  • Whiskeyjack_5691Whiskeyjack_5691 Registered Users Posts: 3,794
    edited March 7
    Peasantry and Population has gotten some tweaking apparently. You now get a bonus to all income sources from Population, not just Peasantry Income.

    Also, once the population in a commandery exceeds one million, you're able to construct additional buildings per turn. Not sure of the exact details though.


  • KirkwaldKirkwald Registered Users Posts: 947
    Wew, they still need to update the text below though since it still says it affects peasant income.
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    Oops forgot about the city pop buff. Added to the first post.


    Also I hope they don't forget to switch Kong Rong and He Yi effects as well.
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,872
    From the sounds of it crossbows were nerfed pretty hard, though they were amazing for their cost. It's a little bit sad since crossbows were what made commanders more usable, now commanders suck even more but oh well.
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    edited March 7
    Crossbows are still largely worth their cost, I tried the 150 range myself (so even harsher than CA's 200 range) and the units - while requiring more placement - were still very overbearing. So at 200 I still expect them to perform very very well for their pricetag
  • BAB1918BAB1918 Registered Users Posts: 237
    Now they just need to put some penalties in place for having trebuchets in your army such as campaign movement.
  • sassbarmansassbarman Registered Users Posts: 45
    mcbest said:

    Now they just need to put some penalties in place for having trebuchets in your army such as campaign movement. </


    Two thumbs up on that suggestion!

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 27,353
    Was something done about supplies so they become more impactful?

  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    Another update for the obvious diplomacy : because while yes Demand Abdication is back, Confederate option is seeminlgy not back.

    Sure that makes Liu Bei more unique but I don't like that.
  • cool_ladcool_lad Senior Member IndiaRegistered Users Posts: 2,276
    Honestly this seem like a some of the worst balance, if this can even be called that; to come out in a long time.

    They've reduced ranges across the board (bows at 180 and crossbows at 200) and then slapped on a bonus vs cav on bows as a rather bad way of compensating for the nerf. Likewise, making cavalry lightning fast seems to serve no purpose apart from making the gameplay as a whole more arcadey and more counter based and rock-paper-scissors oriented.

    This seems less like an improvement and more a shift from a realistic balance where the crossbows and bows acted as the balancing factor that countered the power of cavalry (as they did in fact do IRL), towards a more arcadey system where the units are forced into pigeonholed niches that make little sense and only serve to add towards making the gameplay into an oversimplified system of hard counters.

    I can't speak for Romance mode, which is all about arcade like gameplay. But these changes are downright atrocious for Records, where such rock-paper-scissors gameplay just cheapens the gameplay and removes what was a by and large better and deeper system that what TW had previously.
  • CK2BenchmarkCK2Benchmark Registered Users Posts: 358
    Crossbows also can't fire high arcs anymore apparently. There can't be things between them and the target.
  • LESAMALESAMA Member Registered Users Posts: 1,747
    Kirkwald said:

    Wew, they still need to update the text below though since it still says it affects peasant income.

    That’s what I mean. Polish is terrible.

    With regard to horse pastures i don’t like ca to balance everything. There needs to be some exploits and rewards to make things fun.
  • LESAMALESAMA Member Registered Users Posts: 1,747

    Was something done about supplies so they become more impactful?

    Exactly. This is also one of the things that tend to have no impact mid to late game
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 27,353
    LESAMA said:



    With regard to horse pastures i don’t like ca to balance everything. There needs to be some exploits and rewards to make things fun.

    Nope, balance is more important than people wanting to have "fun". Especially if that "fun" translates to "render the campaign trivial". TW has too many titles with trivial campaigns, the pendulum needs to swing back hard.

    I'm happy about that nerf. I hope they nerf all the other exploitable garbage just as hard.


  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,872

    Nope, balance is more important than people wanting to have "fun". Especially if that "fun" translates to "render the campaign trivial". TW has too many titles with trivial campaigns, the pendulum needs to swing back hard.

    I'm happy about that nerf. I hope they nerf all the other exploitable garbage just as hard.

    This is after all mostly a single player game and there is no point in preventing other people from enjoying the game however they want. I would lean on the side of balancing for the multiplayer aspect where one person abusing broken things is going to hurt the gaming experience of others, but in a single player game exploiting something in the game isn't going to hurt the gaming experience of other players, other than hurting the feelings of those who make a living complaining and trying to dictate how other people can only play the game however they want the game to be played.
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    edited March 8
    They've reduced ranges across the board (bows at 180 and crossbows at 200)


    Militia Bows are at 180 since this patch, regular bows are still at 200 (and Onyx Dragons still have 250 range, no idea about the Elite crossbows units)


    Likewise, making cavalry lightning fast seems to serve no purpose apart from making the gameplay as a whole more arcadey and more counter based and rock-paper-scissors oriented.


    Making lightcav faster actually probably serve the purpose of letting it disengage properly, right now thanks to the charge bonus speed modifier it was not uncommon to see cavalry struggle to get out of an engagement, I reckon this is aimed at that. (Heavier cav didn't seem to have gained so much more speed, even if faster)

    Also yes sure it's turning the gameplay toward "arcade and counter based RPS". Like in Shogun 2. And Rome 2. And Attila. (The latter where Rock were Spears, Paper were Swords and Scissors were Ranged units and it didn't matter because Cavalry killed everything) :trollface:
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,872
    Rewan said:

    They've reduced ranges across the board (bows at 180 and crossbows at 200)
    Militia Bows are at 180 since this patch, regular bows are still at 200 (and Onyx Dragons still have 250 range, no idea about the Elite crossbows units)
    Ah ok, that sounds fair. As long as light cavalry means cavalry without shields then I don't mind a little speed buff.
  • LESAMALESAMA Member Registered Users Posts: 1,747

    LESAMA said:



    With regard to horse pastures i don’t like ca to balance everything. There needs to be some exploits and rewards to make things fun.

    Nope, balance is more important than people wanting to have "fun". Especially if that "fun" translates to "render the campaign trivial". TW has too many titles with trivial campaigns, the pendulum needs to swing back hard.

    I'm happy about that nerf. I hope they nerf all the other exploitable garbage just as hard.

    Fun is why I play a game. Happy to disagree with you 😊
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    edited March 8
    LESAMA said:

    LESAMA said:



    With regard to horse pastures i don’t like ca to balance everything. There needs to be some exploits and rewards to make things fun.

    Nope, balance is more important than people wanting to have "fun". Especially if that "fun" translates to "render the campaign trivial". TW has too many titles with trivial campaigns, the pendulum needs to swing back hard.

    I'm happy about that nerf. I hope they nerf all the other exploitable garbage just as hard.

    Fun is why I play a game. Happy to disagree with you 😊

    To be fair this highlights a fact that CA should take into consideration : Right now Romance/Records is mostly a battle-only oriented choice. Perhaps Three Kingdoms could actually have a Romance/Records choice for BOTH battles AND the campaign map.

    Romance setting on the campaign map could include bigger benefits for both buildings (including perhaps more factionwide effects) and ministerial positions while Records could then keep it on a tighter leash.

    But it's only a stray idea. I am also very much in favor of having a Dynasty battle mode in the campaign map with over the top generals (Who could then focus on 1v1 or 1v9 abilities)
  • Misaka_ComplexMisaka_Complex Registered Users Posts: 2,872
    Speaking of records mode, I remember that DiaoChan never existed both historically and in the game in records mode. I wonder if she's going to exist in records mode for this DLC? I also remember that records generals are pretty OP since they are a type of heavy cavalry, I'm wondering if they also got a buff too with this DLC.
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    I remember that DiaoChan never existed both historically and in the game in records mode


    Tbh it's more of a bug than anything I believe, I didn't get the Diao Chan event as the Dong with the MoH start in Romance after all...
  • LESAMALESAMA Member Registered Users Posts: 1,747
    Think this is more related to certain traits. Not sure but I don’t believe their are different traits for records. Moet traits are battle focused. If they would make the traits in records more balanced campaign and battle wise this perhaps could solve some of the problems. Same goes for the eunuchs and emperor in MoH
  • JerroserJerroser Registered Users Posts: 419
    Rewan said:

    I remember that DiaoChan never existed both historically and in the game in records mode


    Tbh it's more of a bug than anything I believe, I didn't get the Diao Chan event as the Dong with the MoH start in Romance after all...
    In records mode she has doesn't appear even with Dong Zhuo's event chain which is changed slightly to accommodate for this. But right now even in romance you're every unlikely to actually see her in the campaign as she only appears if you're playing as Dong Zhuo and the conditions leading to the dilemma involving her will never actually come up in the MoH start.

    Its possible they will remove her from the records version of the 194 start as they seems to have actually provided Lu Bu with his historical wife despite Diao Chan being is his faction, effectively as just a regular courtier. It also makes me wonder if they will retroactively add his wife and daughter to the main campaign start given and how that will impact the event chain with Diao Chan.

    Also yes, the cavalry units that characters get in records mode can be ridiculously powerful and in a way I would almost see them as an extra set of units that cannot be recruited normally. Some characters even have special unique bodyguard units that were clearly different from any other unit that could be recruited. Such as Zhang Jiang's two handed axe cavalry unit and Sun Ren's all female bodyguard unit. Both of which I suspect have been quietly re-purposed in to some of the "new" united that will be added to the bandit roaster and Sun Ce's faction.
  • RewanRewan Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 3,327
    So apparently you cannot Unify with bandits anymore - it's sad but quite normal...
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