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The Unclean and The Upstart - Dwarfs vs Skaven (TWW2 Cross-Game DLC)

WarfieldWarfield Registered Users Posts: 453
edited June 2020 in General Discussion

Gears of Zhufbar!!

Engineer-Themed Dwarf DLC

The basis for much this DLC concept is what we have learned from the latest DLC (The Grim and the Paunch). CA has shown us that they are able to pull from other sources beyond the table top army books. In addition, the world map was changed around Zhufbar to introduce Skaven around Karak Varn (Cragmere)/Blackwater. The proposed DLC would focus on Master Engineers, Miners/Prospectors, and Ironbreakers, and the conflict would be over mining gromril versus warpstone, as discussed here: https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Karak_Varn

When it comes to Dwarf DLC speculation, threads propose slayer-themed DLCs, Engineering-themed DLCs, Hybrid slayer/engineer-themed, or a collection of random missing units (see: The King and The Warlord, Belegar et. al.). The argument for another catch all Dwarf DLC rests on the facts that 1) there is no requirement that CA have thematic rosters for their DLCs and 2) many of the missing Dwarf units are slayer themed which will create an un-thematic roster by default when the included DLC legendary lord is not a slayer.

With regards to The King and The Warlord DLC, I was happy to see Rangers, Bolt Throwers, and Runelords with their Anvils of Doom finally make into the game. However, none of these units had a clear link to Belegar per se (you could argue that the Runelord was a proxy for Thorek who was helping Belegar at one point during the Warhammer timeline). This DLC was released during Total War Warhammer's infancy. There were missing units aplenty and DLC content expectations were not well established. Today, I think CA has raised the bar, and I personally like the thematic rosters CA is trying to create with each DLC.

I believe that Malakai would be the best choice in a mutually exclusive decision between a slayer or engineer lord, since Malakai could combine both slayer and engineering themed units to the Dwarf roster. However... there is also plenty of less-well known content for an engineering-themed DLC based on 8th edition WHFB, Dwarfs: Stone and Steel, a source book for the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (WFRP) game, and previously "approved" content in Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning.


Part of the reason I'd like to see an Engineer-themed DLC is that I think it would be an opportunity to bring Engineers up to par with Runesmiths as a hero choice and reestablish Dwarfs a ranged powerhouse (especially with the latest Skaven DLC and almost certainly what Chaos Dwarfs are going to have at their release), and to make playing as Dwarfs feel even "Dwarfier".

This post is broken down into four parts:

1. Master Engineer Changes/Improvements
2. Engineering Workshop Mechanic
3. Grimm Burloksson "Upstart Master Engineer" (Dwarfs) vs Throt "The Unclean" (Skaven)
4. Optional (nice shiny things to consider)


Here is a list of suggestions to rework the Master Engineer unit. I think that the Master Engineer should have a few different options that focus on 1) long range, 2) short range, and 3) utility.

General/Overall Changes:
Mount: Gyrocopter

"Assemble Turret" -> "Summoned" stationary ground construct, 120 second cool down, 30 second duration, 360 degree firing gun, three variants:
long range bullet

medium range bomb

short range flame

Add -> Spanner: Increases gyrocopter mount movement speed, +50% Speed, 15 second duration, 60 second cooldown

Remove -> Thori's Fiery Ring and return it to the Dwarf Lord

Long Range:
Incendiary Rounds -> Adds area of effect explosion to war machine ordinance
Phosphorus Shells -> Adds damage overtime to war machine ordinance (similar to the old Wrath & Ruin Runesmith/Runelord ability)
Hollow Point Bullets -> Self-only, high single target damage, 120 second cooldown, 10 second duration

Short Range:
Flash Grenades - unit-targetable, 20 second stun (acts like a net/root spell), 120 second cooldown
Fragmentation Grenade -> unit-targetable, armor piercing physical damage, 120 second cooldown
Dragonbelch Grenade -> ground-targetable, fire damage, creates a static area of flames doing damage over time, 30 second duration, 120 second cooldown

Tinker -> Repairs and restores selected war machine to full health, routing operators automatically stop routing, one use per battle.
Stockpile -> Double a selected ranged unit's ammunition, one use per battle.
Signal Flare -> Reveal hidden units, map-wide, 30 second duration, 120 second cooldown.

2. ENGINEERING WORKSHOP MECHANIC (build-able campaign items)

1. Earth Borer Mining Drill -> enhanced underground advance movement rate.

2. Thunder Cannon -> Adds large cannons to Dwarf Holds for siege defense.

3. Warpfire Distillery -> building that increases Attrition when enemy armies move through that territory.
4. Aerial Wonder Rocket -> item that increases Public Order and Population Growth.
5. Steam Radiophone -> item that increases Unit Recruitment.


  • Grimm Burloksson (LL, technically a Legendary Hero)
  • Burlok Damminsson (FLC)
  • Veteran Prospector (Hero)
  • Bombard
  • Firethrower (might be redundant with Irondrakes, maybe increased range/reduced movement speed)
  • Mortar
  • Swivel Gun
  • Volley Gun
  • War Balloon (dont worry, Thunderbarges are in my Slayer DLC)
  • Ironbeards (Ironbreakers w/ Pistols)
  • Ironbeards (Ironbreakers w/ Cinderblast Charges)
  • Ironbreakers w/ greatweapon (axes)
  • Prospectors (Miners w/ Steam Drills)
  • Steam-Powered Hammering Tower Thingy
  • "Grudge Buster" (not official)
  • Regiments of Renown:
    RoR - Grudgesolver (Cannon)
    RoR - Roar of Grungni (Cannon)
    RoR - Helga's Curses (Organ Gun)
    RoR - The Zhufbar Firebores (Thunderers)
    RoR - The Ironclads (Ironbreakers)
    RoR - Iron Guard (Ironbreakers)
    RoR - The Axes of Norr (Ironbreakers)
    RoR - Forgefuries (Irondrakes)
    RoR - Drakewardens (Irondrakes)
    RoR - Goldseekers (Miners)
    RoR - Blackwater Squadron (Gyrocopters)
    RoR - Mountain Bolt Squadron (Gyrocopters)
    RoR - Thunderfist Squadron (Gyrobomber)
    RoR - The Hammer of the Greenskins (Gyrobomber)
    RoR - Keepers of the Pass (Gyrobomber)
    RoR - Skyhammers (Gyrobomber)
    RoR - Blackhammer Bombers (Gyrobomber)

DLC Lord: Grimm Burloksson, Upstart Master Engineer
Faction: The Cogsmiths
Starting Location: Cobra Pass (formerly province of Greybeard Prospectors)

Possible Units:
Veteran Prospector: Hero, miner with steamdrill
Battle map abilities
- Vanguard Deployment
- Tunnel (unit can move hidden in any terrain at 75% speed until in combat)
- Cave-in (traps/freezes/nets targeted enemy units)
Campaign map abilities
- Sapper: breaks city walls
- Mining: chance to harvest resources in enemy lands
- Spelunking: report on enemy units garrisoned in settlement/city


Firethrower (might be redundant with Irondrakes, maybe increased range/reduced movement speed)


Swivel Gun

source: Apocrypha Now (Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay WFRP) pg. 40

Volley Gun

source: Apocrypha Now (Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay WFRP) pg. 40

War Balloon

Prospectors (Miners w/ Steam Drills)
Same stats as Miners, removes Vanguard Deployment ability, adds Tunnel ability (unit can move hidden in any terrain at 75% speed until in combat), Adds Sapper ability (able to break walls on battle map)

4. OPTIONAL (nice shiney things to consider)

FLC Lord: Burlok Damminsson
Faction: Zhufbar
Starting Location: Zhufbar

Steam-Powered Hammering Tower Thingy

Divide Ironbreakers into four variants:
1) Ironbeards (cinderblast charges with shield & hammer -> hammer weapon option is not in the army book per se, I just want new Dwarf hammer assets that look like the table top models, give cinderblast charges to "Ironbeards", a new unit, create more beard-protecting helmets, with chain/scale mail added to the face, and 1H hammers/shields. Like the models/concept art below. Also give them white/grey beards to reflect the age requirement to become an Ironbeard.)

2) Ironbeards (Ironbreakers w/ Drakefire Pistols & melee weapon, w/o shield)

3) Ironbreakers (no cinderblast charges, melee unit only, wielding axes, take away cinderblast charges from Ironbreakers and buff some other stat to compensate the nerf, maybe a bit more melee attack (+1 per unit) and slight increase in mass)

4) Ironbreakers (no cinderblast charges, melee unit only, wielding greatweapon for armor piercing, take away cinderblast charges from Ironbreakers and buff some other stat to compensate the nerf, again with perhaps a bit more melee attack (+1 per unit) and slight increase in mass)

"Grudge Buster" (not official)

Warfield Undermountain
Dwarf Lord of Stone and Steel
LINK: Dwarf Engineering DLC

1. Klad Brakak needs to be selectable in MP/Custom battles.
2. Anvil Guards need to be modeled in game and also be an option in MP/Custom battles.
Post edited by Warfield on


  • TheGuardianOfMetalTheGuardianOfMetal Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,687
    edited May 2020
    can't people use spoilers to keep their Posts with loads of pictures more compact?

    ALso, Grimm isn't really an Upstart.

    Also Also: Thorek.

    Also: Making Burlok Dammison the FLC when his son is teh DLC, both bein gengineers, is kinda... meh. Rather do Alrik Ranulfsson (similar "Old School units" focus + Shieldbearers)

    The Empire still hasn't gotten their FLC LL. We need Marius Leitdorf of Averland!

    Where is Boris Todbringer? Have you seen him? For a Middenland DLC with Boris and the Ar-Ulric!

    Every wrong is recorded. Every slight against us, page after page, ETCHED IN BLOOD!

    Queek could smell their hatred, ratcheted to a degree that even he could not evoke in their simple hearts. He stepped over the old orange-fur’s body, eager to see for himself what it was they saw. But he heard it first.
    'Waaaaaaaggh! Gorfang!'
  • uzualuzual Registered Users Posts: 385
    The dwarves could bring very interesting mechanics
  • ToxicFlamesToxicFlames Registered Users Posts: 441
    edited May 2020
    Nice list! some units i didnt know about. now do your own moulder list. https://hobbydocbox.com/docs-images/76/73042441/images/35-0.jpg
    Post edited by ToxicFlames on
  • ShandalarShandalar Registered Users Posts: 76
    Half of the units you suggest are a Chaos Dwarf thing.

    So pretty sure that will not happen.
  • Gilgamesh1Gilgamesh1 Registered Users Posts: 896
    is there not only one DLC left? if so, why they should add Dwarfs but not Vampires? if there is only 1 DLC left i really doubt they will buff skaven even more over other game 2 races and leave vampires (CA favourites dudes) outside the game
  • SireEversorSireEversor Registered Users Posts: 13
    Finally someone, who prefers Grimm over Malakai :)
  • Aman3712Aman3712 Registered Users Posts: 652
    Another potential unit they could add if they end up going for the engineering theme is the Dwarf Juggernaut from 2nd edition, which would pretty much be akin to the Empire steam tank.

    I wouldn’t mind if it didn’t make the cut, however; as long as the Dwarfs DLC features some very cool and wild units for the Dwarfs, such as the Thunderbarge, I’ll be ecstatic
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 14,758
    No brewmaster hero or ale cart to give dwarf healing. Hard pass. On prospector hero.
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
  • Okknight84Okknight84 Registered Users Posts: 102
    Like Grimm as LL but most these units don't work for me. Steam Drill, ranged Ironbreaker variant and Thunderbarge would make me happy.

    That would leave Runic units and Thorek for a Dwarves vs Chaos Dwarf pack in WH3.
  • WarfieldWarfield Registered Users Posts: 453
    edited May 2020
    @TheGuardianOfMetal I would prefer Thorek and Alrik over Grimm and Burlok as well (I prefer the runesmithing and weapons/armor smithing aspect of Dwarfs over engineering and slayers), but the odds of seeing them in game 2 versus Skaven seems quite low to me. Based on what I'm seeing with this latest DLC and what I understand of the Vortex map, I think Grimm is likely.

    Grimm is known as being an "Upstart Master Engineer" in 8th edition. It is in the heading of his character page.

    As for Burlok, the reason I see him as a possible FLC is that his model would be relatively easy to create and it would open up Zhufbar as a possible start position alternative/storyline. With all the Skaven added to that region in the latest version of the old world map, it would also be thematic to have Zhufbar try to deal with the new Skaven threat there.

    @Shandalar actually, all the war machine units are taken straight from Stone and Steel, which is not for Chaos Dwarfs.

    @Gilgamesh1 if there is only one more DLC for game 2 left, I think it should be Dwarfs instead of Vampire Counts simply because I am biased (I also think Master Engineers as a hero unit have been underwhelming since launch).

    @kasunrathnatunga I expect Josef Bugman with his ale cart, will likely be a White Dwarf Magazine promo FLC, which is why he doesn't appear here. Someone else had suggested Prospector heroes (I just named him "Veteran Prospector" to differentiate from normal prospectors, which are miners with steamdrills in the table top). I think the campaign map meta game could be greatly enhanced greatly with such a hero.

    @Okknight84 Thunderbarge could make it in, but if CA is already taking units from S&S and WFRP, I think they may save it as controllable unit for Malakai (which is a story for another thread).

    Post edited by Warfield on

    Warfield Undermountain
    Dwarf Lord of Stone and Steel
    LINK: Dwarf Engineering DLC

    !! FIX THOREK !!
    1. Klad Brakak needs to be selectable in MP/Custom battles.
    2. Anvil Guards need to be modeled in game and also be an option in MP/Custom battles.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,365
    Slayers would be more fitting for the next DLC than Engineers if the Skaven would be the main focus of that DLC. Yes the first Dwarfs DLC didn't made much thematic sense but back then CA cared less about themes, because CA had not planned to make more than 1 Lord Pack for Base Races.
  • mightygloinmightygloin Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 4,990
    edited May 2020
    Part of the reason I'd like to see an Engineer-themed DLC is that I think it would be an opportunity to bring Engineers up to par with Runesmiths as a hero choice

    That is not saying much though since everything rune related needs overhaul if the full system to be implemended. Engineers are also better in campaign due to their skills buffing ranged troops. You could even say Runesmiths are a worse choice by far.

    Also Ironbreakers with GW could be a bit redundant since they couldn't pick up GW on TT and there is Hammerers.

    Mighty good post though.
  • FrostHunterFrostHunter Registered Users Posts: 6
    edited May 2020
    Would love to see Grimm as Legendary Lord and Lord Engineer (Guildmaster?) as normal Lord with abilities to boost shooters/machines in aspect of reawakening the Dwarf technological power and mastery bringing up the Dawi into their golden times again. Also with barricade options from TW: Three Kingdoms he would be able to bring some entrenchments?

    That would be great excuse to bring units not from tabletop as golems aka Steam-Powered Hammering Tower Thingy (some kind of monstrous infantry or monster or... both), deathrollers (chariots with some variants of irondrakes?), prospectors with minings drills, another option for Irondrakes with drakes pistols or some kind of shotguns as another source of disrupting charges and maybe suppression? Maybe Thunderbarge as semi horde option for Dwarfs in some way as Black Ark?

    Definetly i would jump inot the heavens if the "Engineer" Dwarf DLC (another perfect excuse) would brings underway rework (maybe titled as War in the dark?):
    - Dwarfs are able to build via engineers in their cities undercities with few slots and only in provinces with them they could use underway stance. The Dwarf's underway would bring growth, economy, movement, interception of enemy armies and other benefits which would depend from constructed buildings in that region/province and from proximity of other Dawi's Undercities, but starts devastated and infected by Greenskins, Skavens etc.
    - Skavens could use all races underways with ability to sap others buffs.
    - That would bring also Greenskins and here i need some help from you (maybe connected with some raidings options?) as probably they would be in some way similar to Skavens, but it would be fun if all races would work little differently, where Dwarfs are the hosts and Greenskins and Skavens are parasites (maybe Skavens would be hybrids as parasites and hosts for themself?). Unfortunately i know that this would probably require freaking great amount of work to do... so i don't be suprised to not see this.

    In theory that rework and DLC would be:
    - testing ground forChaos Dwarfs who i assume will apear in TW: Warhammer 3
    - after launching TW: Warhammer 3 with Chaos Dwarfes, adding another aspect of conflict for those races.

    As second LL would love to see Thorek and reworking runes and mix it with metalcrafting and whole smithing mastery.
    I would pass on slayer lord as in theory in tabletop there was Slayer Lord, but he couldn't be general if i remember correctly. I feel that slayers units could be additions for packages.

    I would gladly accept reworking runes into something like scrap system mixed with mortuary cult.

    Also would love to see rework of Grudges, maybe in that way the Dwarfs should confederate?
    Post edited by FrostHunter on
  • WarfieldWarfield Registered Users Posts: 453
    edited June 2020
    @mightygloin Yea, I think engineers are more useful in the campaign, but the runesmiths are better for multiplayer and custom battles.

    As for Ironbreakers with greatweapons, yes they didn't have that option on the table top, and there is the risk of them being redundant with hammerers. However, there is so much official art with IBs wielding greatweapons, that it would be nice to have some variety and I'm sure CA could make it so that Hammerers remained better for melee damage.

    Glad you liked the post!

    @FrostHunter I think the Dwarf ingenuity vs Skaven ingenuity would be an interesting theme, and while CA could do another generic-themed Dwarf DLC (like the Belegar's King and Warlord DLC), there is plenty of options for an engineer themed one with miners and ironbreaker variants to round out the DLC roster.

    As for a rune-themed DLC, I am working on another post for that...
    Post edited by Warfield on

    Warfield Undermountain
    Dwarf Lord of Stone and Steel
    LINK: Dwarf Engineering DLC

    !! FIX THOREK !!
    1. Klad Brakak needs to be selectable in MP/Custom battles.
    2. Anvil Guards need to be modeled in game and also be an option in MP/Custom battles.
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