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Are the new High Elf fire combos too much?

blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 376
I'm a bit concerned about the weakness-to-fire debuffs the High Elves now have access to. Kindle Flame&Fire Spells + the Talons RoR archers + Sisters of Avelorn is just one combo, you can also work in Imrik's debuff, phoenixes and dragons. You can squeeze all the options into the same army list but you don't need to, a small amount of them might be very, very problematic for certain match ups.

How will Tomb King players deal with High Elf armies built to snipe their (weak-to-fire) lords? There are no Liche High Priests in the game, as of yet, so Tomb Kings are now incredibly easy to shut down. Players wanting to take the new Greenskin content online might also have very bad experiences, as their new regenerating lord and units will just melt if properly targeted.

I'm always ready to yield if a more experienced player makes a good counter-argument, but these new synergies feel really toxic to me.
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Comments

  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,947
    blindjonn said:

    I'm a bit concerned about the weakness-to-fire debuffs the High Elves now have access to. Kindle Flame&Fire Spells + the Talons RoR archers + Sisters of Avelorn is just one combo, you can also work in Imrik's debuff, phoenixes and dragons. You can squeeze all the options into the same army list but you don't need to, a small amount of them might be very, very problematic for certain match ups.

    How will Tomb King players deal with High Elf armies built to snipe their (weak-to-fire) lords? There are no Liche High Priests in the game, as of yet, so Tomb Kings are now incredibly easy to shut down. Players wanting to take the new Greenskin content online might also have very bad experiences, as their new regenerating lord and units will just melt if properly targeted.

    I'm always ready to yield if a more experienced player makes a good counter-argument, but these new synergies feel really toxic to me.

    you are talking about combos that by the sound of it cost some 5000+ gold. You also need a rest of army to protect these combos. Maybe wait for DLC to drop and we'll see if they're too strong or not :)
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 376
    Green0 said:

    you are talking about combos that by the sound of it cost some 5000+ gold. You also need a rest of army to protect these combos. Maybe wait for DLC to drop and we'll see if they're too strong or not :)

    No, I'm actually more concerned about the cheaper combinations. Talons+Sisters with or without a kindleflame source, for example, would be very affordable. Of course, we'll wait and see, but I think it's fairly clear that Tomb Kings are in danger of having a totally one sided match-up. Other issues include Louen and Morghur (lords that help keep their factions competitive) and the Skaven's Helpit (which is important against cav-heavy factions). Additionally, making it stupid to take Grom the Paunch against High Elves is very disappointing.

    It might even be the case that these combos are too strong against units without a weakness to fire as well, I would rather not have to wait a full patch cycle before this is looked into.
  • Gilgamesh1Gilgamesh1 Registered Users Posts: 657
    The strange thing to me Is that the Archer RoR is, if i Remember correctly, the sole ranged unit that can apply Fire weak ess at Will at very long range and that sinergize with itself. It's strange ti me since this game Is cool when you have to put up cool combos with different unità and maybe build a thematic army and so on...but the ROR can Simply sinergize with itself perfectly while still sinergizing with every other flame source and i think it's the only unit of this kind that can do such.

    I'm not saying it's OP or so, Just that seems strange to me at First glance
  • StupidIdiotStupidIdiot Registered Users Posts: 95
    edited May 15

    The strange thing to me Is that the Archer RoR is, if i Remember correctly, the sole ranged unit that can apply Fire weak ess at Will at very long range and that sinergize with itself. It's strange ti me since this game Is cool when you have to put up cool combos with different unità and maybe build a thematic army and so on...but the ROR can Simply sinergize with itself perfectly while still sinergizing with every other flame source and i think it's the only unit of this kind that can do such.

    I'm not saying it's OP or so, Just that seems strange to me at First glance

    Ancient Salamanders do it too iirc. Things that "synergize with themselves" just mean they do more damage and synergize with other things. Of course RoR aren't balanced -- I have never ever liked them.

    As far as OP goes, I disagree. As I mentioned on another post about this, I'm a huge fan of these synergies. There is most definitely a power creep to them, though, and all resistances and weaknesses weren't properly designed for from the beginning of the game. As such, they aren't as well rounded as they should be and are like a half-baked cake. Imo this is still better than no cake so these synergies will do for now.
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 6,947
    blindjonn said:

    Green0 said:

    you are talking about combos that by the sound of it cost some 5000+ gold. You also need a rest of army to protect these combos. Maybe wait for DLC to drop and we'll see if they're too strong or not :)

    No, I'm actually more concerned about the cheaper combinations. Talons+Sisters with or without a kindleflame source, for example, would be very affordable. Of course, we'll wait and see, but I think it's fairly clear that Tomb Kings are in danger of having a totally one sided match-up. Other issues include Louen and Morghur (lords that help keep their factions competitive) and the Skaven's Helpit (which is important against cav-heavy factions). Additionally, making it stupid to take Grom the Paunch against High Elves is very disappointing.

    It might even be the case that these combos are too strong against units without a weakness to fire as well, I would rather not have to wait a full patch cycle before this is looked into.
    I wouldn't worry about a 800g Archers with 3 AP and a 1100g Sisters which pre-DLC are still slightly cost-inefficient. You know that you can also... not take the lords you mention?

    Also, Louen doesn't have Fire weakness his regen is not of the type you think.

    TK currently are very oppressive for HE hopefully the DLC will make it a more even playing field. Regardless of whether TK lords are or are not vulnerable to Fire, you have tons of ways to shut down archers as TK.
  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 376
    Green0 said:

    You know that you can also... not take the lords you mention?

    Also, Louen doesn't have Fire weakness his regen is not of the type you think.

    Hence why I didn't mention them in the opening post, but there are certain weak-to-fire units that are important for a faction's competitiveness. Wood Elves certainly have a lot of them, for example, which makes them even easier to build against. It's interesting to know Louen has no fire weakness, though, that seems inconsistent. Grom is a thematic issue, he's getting nuked in the youtube games I've watched so far.
    Green0 said:

    TK currently are very oppressive for HE hopefully the DLC will make it a more even playing field. Regardless of whether TK lords are or are not vulnerable to Fire, you have tons of ways to shut down archers as TK.

    Remember the archers can be swapped out entirely for other burst-damage fire combos, using Imrik, phoenixes etc. I think HE's current matchup with Tomb Kings would be better fixed in other ways. The lions will help tie things down and I'm not the only one who thinks they could have used Bonus vs Large. The new HQ options will strengthen HE's chances as well, Imrik and Teclis could be a nightmare for TK even without that debuff. I really don't think incentivizing lord sniping is a good way of balancing, I'm sure a lot of us remember the Gelt + 2 Witchhunters lord sniping build that floated around for a while. It was pretty obnoxious.
  • MrProsMrPros Registered Users Posts: 24
    Yes its too much
    The game is changing into:
    - Snipe the lord in 2 seconds
    - how many sem`s i can get under my star of avelorn

    Basic troops are no longer needed.
  • DerpmaidenDerpmaiden Registered Users Posts: 128
    The synergy is there but I doubt it will be game breaking, how about we wait until the DLC drop and test a bit on it's performance before having any concrete solution? The Empire do currently possess a similar combo, but it's far from being broken. I don't think this will be the most broken thing this patch, the single-target debuff is more worrisome.
  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Registered Users Posts: 390

    The strange thing to me Is that the Archer RoR is, if i Remember correctly, the sole ranged unit that can apply Fire weak ess at Will at very long range and that sinergize with itself. It's strange ti me since this game Is cool when you have to put up cool combos with different unità and maybe build a thematic army and so on...but the ROR can Simply sinergize with itself perfectly while still sinergizing with every other flame source and i think it's the only unit of this kind that can do such.

    I'm not saying it's OP or so, Just that seems strange to me at First glance

    they are unique, but not as much as you'd think

    shield break ranged units synergyze with themselves as well as with other ranged units against targets with shields

    armor sunder units synergyze with themselves as well as with any other melee/ranged unit with physical damage

    the only uniqueness new archers bring is they synergyze with spells and other fire damage type units
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,021
    Just saw a match from Turin where Grom was bombed to half health by one combined volley from Sisters and Archer RoR.

    It's definitely wildly OP and synergizes way too much. They need to remove the "imbue fire weakness" part.

  • ReymReym Registered Users Posts: 569
    Teclis net (triggers fire passive) one archer volley, dragon breath.

    Can't wait to fight this sort of combo as VC :D
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Registered Users Posts: 390

    Just saw a match from Turin where Grom was bombed to half health by one combined volley from Sisters and Archer RoR.

    It's definitely wildly OP and synergizes way too much. They need to remove the "imbue fire weakness" part.

    can you link me the match or video of this?
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,021
    Ah, it wasn't Turin, it was Dahvplays:


  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,504
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 9,504

    Just saw a match from Turin where Grom was bombed to half health by one combined volley from Sisters and Archer RoR.

    It's definitely wildly OP and synergizes way too much. They need to remove the "imbue fire weakness" part.

    And more dmg would of been doen if it was 2 sisters.
  • ReymReym Registered Users Posts: 569
    "Bombed to half health" he lost 1K hp=25% health. Damages that he took while doing who knows what between the 2 armies.

    Honestly he could have just stay out of range until he finds a way in with his pumpwagons.

    You were complaining repeatidly about single entities ability to dodge stuff making range units not a vaible counter to them and now that we are starting to see strong range synergies that works you go all the way around and saying that a lord who got regen should not fear this sort of thing.

    I see these kinds of scenario with my (or the one of others) mortis everytime there is at least 2 sisters that are able to slip in a good volley in because I wasn't carefull and guess what VC can still carry on to victory if he reacts accordingly. The smae with grom and GS can be espected.
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,021
    Reym said:

    "Bombed to half health" he lost 1K hp=25% health. Damages that he took while doing who knows what between the 2 armies.

    Honestly he could have just stay out of range until he finds a way in with his pumpwagons.

    You were complaining repeatidly about single entities ability to dodge stuff making range units not a vaible counter to them and now that we are starting to see strong range synergies that works you go all the way around and saying that a lord who got regen should not fear this sort of thing.

    I see these kinds of scenario with my (or the one of others) mortis everytime there is at least 2 sisters that are able to slip in a good volley in because I wasn't carefull and guess what VC can still carry on to victory if he reacts accordingly. The smae with grom and GS can be espected.

    Except the correct answer would be to lower the turning speed and acceleration of SEMs, not make ranged units even more powerful since that makes them even more powerful against non-SEMs as well and is one of the reason melee infantry has been reduced to filler and bringing elite melee infantry a total gamble.

    It's the usual BS by CA, balancing AROUND a friggin' problem instead of adressing the problem directly.

  • ReymReym Registered Users Posts: 569
    edited May 15
    And your own bias offers a game that feels clunky, I don't know the one I dislike the most to be honest.
    But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,021
    Reym said:

    And your own bias offers a game that feels clunky, I don't know the one I dislike the most to be honest.

    You mean a game were tactics and positioning actually matter? Why do you think the current HE meta build is one that's basically tailor-made for twitchy micromanagement where you can win solely on reaction? It's an utter degeneration of the TW battles concept and turns it into a crap MOBA. APMs should not matter so goddamn much in TW. Go and play Starcraft if you want that sort of game.

  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Registered Users Posts: 390

    Ah, it wasn't Turin, it was Dahvplays:


    thanks for the video

    if you are talking about 1:30 moment, well it was not half HP, more like 30%

    he was actually left with 2960 from 1 combined volley, his full health is 3972, which gives 25.5% HP damage

    but there are a few important things I've noticed:

    1)Grom is vulnerable to fire, as he is Regen character, so he will get more damage from this kinds of combo

    2) however the volleys were shot simultaniously so some arrows didn't receive the fire weakness bonus, so potentially damage can be higher

    3) sisters of averlord were chevroned by 2 (you can see it from 4:02, when Dahv hovers over them for a second, in order to cast a spell on RoR archers, in the end of battle they receive 3rd chevron)

    3) I imagine with net and more sisters or other sources of fire damage and as well as non-fire damage (spells, dragon breath) you can effectively delete lords (even those not naturally weak to fire) in seconds, if they are not careful enough

    4) also it seems like this combo allows HE to possess the kind of danger to enemy lords as WE have with the waywatchers + net builds
    anybody who played against 2-3 waywatchers + net build knows that moving forward with your lord and leaving him basically alone vs enemy front line will most likely result in losing your lord

    thats what Dahvplays did at 1:30, he went too far with Grom into the enemy lines

    maybe he didn't expect that kind of burst damage as he was not experienced enough vs these new units

    at least its not as crazy as release-state-jezzails and requires at least some coordination to get that sort of effect, but potentially it's more dangerous than any ranged unit combo I've ever seen allowing much more synergy and combinations against lords as well as other units (not only ranged units but spells and abilities)

    its too early to make some 100% conclusions and both forum topics as well as usual after-DLC hotfix will most likely address this issue

    P.S. another thing that bothers me
    I dont know, is it me or in the most videos i've seen so far, arrows seem to fly differently than before, like more precise or faster, I don't know
    I don't think I've seen arrows hit chariot unit on the move with that kind of accuracy

    maybe I'm just delusional and video is sped up a little
  • Cadia101Cadia101 Registered Users Posts: 782

    Synergies are good for the game.

    To a certain point.
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 320
    blindjonn said:

    Green0 said:

    You know that you can also... not take the lords you mention?

    Also, Louen doesn't have Fire weakness his regen is not of the type you think.

    Hence why I didn't mention them in the opening post, but there are certain weak-to-fire units that are important for a faction's competitiveness. Wood Elves certainly have a lot of them, for example, which makes them even easier to build against. It's interesting to know Louen has no fire weakness, though, that seems inconsistent. Grom is a thematic issue, he's getting nuked in the youtube games I've watched so far.
    Green0 said:

    TK currently are very oppressive for HE hopefully the DLC will make it a more even playing field. Regardless of whether TK lords are or are not vulnerable to Fire, you have tons of ways to shut down archers as TK.

    Remember the archers can be swapped out entirely for other burst-damage fire combos, using Imrik, phoenixes etc. I think HE's current matchup with Tomb Kings would be better fixed in other ways. The lions will help tie things down and I'm not the only one who thinks they could have used Bonus vs Large. The new HQ options will strengthen HE's chances as well, Imrik and Teclis could be a nightmare for TK even without that debuff. I really don't think incentivizing lord sniping is a good way of balancing, I'm sure a lot of us remember the Gelt + 2 Witchhunters lord sniping build that floated around for a while. It was pretty obnoxious.
    I don’t think TK will struggle against this new combo as much as you think they have great tools for taking out HE archers before they even get into firing range. The scariest thing for them is gonna be Imrik because he can probably 2-3 hit most TK lords by himself. Also the fire combo isn’t needed in the HE vs WE MU that’s already heavily HE favored. I don’t really see this synergy as being incredibly strong from the new archers. It’s hard to pull off all the synergy efficiently on the battlefield. Probably most the time better off just getting more sisters of averlorn then the new RoR archers. They hit way harder with there AP and already Synergize very well with teclis nets and kindle flame. So if you don’t think the current use of sisters and teclis is to strong the new archers aren’t really adding much to that.
  • KurnothHunterKurnothHunter Registered Users Posts: 390
    this synergy is definitely strong, because it makes whatever unit new RoR Archers attack, weaker to fire, which opens up more different possibilities to inflist more damage (spells, sisters, fireborn cavalry etc)
    unit doesn't have to be weak to fire in the first place

    considering so many sources of fire damage from HE, even not perfectly executed combo can be potentially more effective than we expect
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 320
    It’s strong but there’s counter play and I don’t think it’s overly strong but we can’t say for sure till the DLC drops. Can bring fire resistant units, use wind spells or artillery to kill the archers before combat. I like the addition because it puts more focus on HE to try and use fire combos than spam SEM’s with Larry.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,021

    It’s strong but there’s counter play and I don’t think it’s overly strong but we can’t say for sure till the DLC drops. Can bring fire resistant units, use wind spells or artillery to kill the archers before combat. I like the addition because it puts more focus on HE to try and use fire combos than spam SEM’s with Larry.

    HE have a bazillion tools to exert pressure, especially with their now even stronger air force (since they now can have basic mages on dragons) and all the fast units they were given, you'll be on the defensive right from the start and so taking care of the wombo-combos before they get their shots off will be near impossible.


  • blindjonnblindjonn Registered Users Posts: 376
    Green0 said:

    TK currently are very oppressive for HE hopefully the DLC will make it a more even playing field. Regardless of whether TK lords are or are not vulnerable to Fire, you have tons of ways to shut down archers as TK.

    I don’t think TK will struggle against this new combo as much as you think they have great tools for taking out HE archers before they even get into firing range. The scariest thing for them is gonna be Imrik because he can probably 2-3 hit most TK lords by himself.

    Hopefully you guys are right and the matchup doesn't degenerate into a lord-sniping meta. In general, though, I am disappointed that the game's direction is moving away from rewarding positioning-based tactics and moving towards rewarding stacked ranged debuffs and gooning. As TW's community has learned the meta, CA seems to have moved their direction away from making things as "Warhammer" as possible, and moved towards making things as strong as possible.
  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 320

    It’s strong but there’s counter play and I don’t think it’s overly strong but we can’t say for sure till the DLC drops. Can bring fire resistant units, use wind spells or artillery to kill the archers before combat. I like the addition because it puts more focus on HE to try and use fire combos than spam SEM’s with Larry.

    HE have a bazillion tools to exert pressure, especially with their now even stronger air force (since they now can have basic mages on dragons) and all the fast units they were given, you'll be on the defensive right from the start and so taking care of the wombo-combos before they get their shots off will be near impossible.

    I’m more scared of all the buffs GS got. Only thing on the HE roster that worries me in the new DLC is Imrik and Teclis on pigeon. The rest is meh or ok for them. If you can’t see anyway to counter HE box or archer play that’s on you. They are surely not untouchable and other races can do it better.
  • SarmatiannsSarmatianns Registered Users Posts: 4,044
    Synergies should not be easy to pull off.

    Take Skaven and DE assassins - they are mediocre characters on their own. Their value lies in enabling other units deal with enemy characters. They can try to help of course, but they are only on foot, so it's a risk they won't get to do anything. Do you invest more in blockers to allow assassins to land a hit in? You generally ask yourself many question before you make a decision to whether or not to take them (do they work in this build, on this map, vs this opponent, is it better if I drop that approach entirely and go for more Rat Ogres or Cold Ones...)

    That is what strategy games should be about. And then we get the same effect on mounted characters. Ok, not all bad, at least they're weak. But, they're fast so they can pummel an isolated target quickly, especially if two goblins goon it.
    There are fewer downsides, and suddenly much less thinking is required.

    Then you have absolutely silly abilities that require no thinking at all - like in the case of Imrik. You have a button "I do more damage" and another one "enemy does less damage". There is absolutely no reason not to use them. There is very little thinking needed.

    Another example would be Jezzails - a ranged unit with shieldbreaker trait. WTF moment! You use shield to protect yourself from missiles, and now someone thought of missiles that break your shields?! Shieldbreaker should be reserved for heavy, short range missiles, like axes and javelins. Then you can have a valid synergy/combo opportunity that requires thinking - how many shielded units do you expect, how many missile troops will your opponent have, is it too risky to bring short range missiles to break the shields for my long range missiles, is it too risky... ?

    This in effect dumbs down the game to button mashing, a little bit by little bit, one DLC at a time.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,021
    edited May 15

    It’s strong but there’s counter play and I don’t think it’s overly strong but we can’t say for sure till the DLC drops. Can bring fire resistant units, use wind spells or artillery to kill the archers before combat. I like the addition because it puts more focus on HE to try and use fire combos than spam SEM’s with Larry.

    HE have a bazillion tools to exert pressure, especially with their now even stronger air force (since they now can have basic mages on dragons) and all the fast units they were given, you'll be on the defensive right from the start and so taking care of the wombo-combos before they get their shots off will be near impossible.

    I’m more scared of all the buffs GS got. Only thing on the HE roster that worries me in the new DLC is Imrik and Teclis on pigeon. The rest is meh or ok for them. If you can’t see anyway to counter HE box or archer play that’s on you. They are surely not untouchable and other races can do it better.
    Nope, 80+ speed lions that hit like heavy cavalry take care of anything on the ground and in the air HE are untouchable.

  • Noob_for_LifeNoob_for_Life Registered Users Posts: 320

    It’s strong but there’s counter play and I don’t think it’s overly strong but we can’t say for sure till the DLC drops. Can bring fire resistant units, use wind spells or artillery to kill the archers before combat. I like the addition because it puts more focus on HE to try and use fire combos than spam SEM’s with Larry.

    HE have a bazillion tools to exert pressure, especially with their now even stronger air force (since they now can have basic mages on dragons) and all the fast units they were given, you'll be on the defensive right from the start and so taking care of the wombo-combos before they get their shots off will be near impossible.

    I’m more scared of all the buffs GS got. Only thing on the HE roster that worries me in the new DLC is Imrik and Teclis on pigeon. The rest is meh or ok for them. If you can’t see anyway to counter HE box or archer play that’s on you. They are surely not untouchable and other races can do it better.
    Nope, 80+ speed lions that hit like heavy cavalry take care of anything on the ground and in the air HE are untouchable.
    Oh yea the kid that thinks lions are going to be OP. I have a feeling you don’t actually play MP very often. Your comments usually just come off as exaggerated biased whining.
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