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Zombie Pirate Gunnery Mob (Bombers)

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  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,875
    If they go up in price, then Depth Guard need to be buffed.

    A fair trade would be +100 on bombers, +20 armour on Depth Guard.
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Registered Users Posts: 485
    OrkLads said:

    If they go up in price, then Depth Guard need to be buffed.

    A fair trade would be +100 on bombers, +20 armour on Depth Guard.

    To be honest I think the reason why we aren't seeing Depth Guard as much now has more to do with you being able to take 3 bombers which are the same but in 3 places at once. I think a buff to them would not be necessary
  • Green0Green0 Registered Users Posts: 7,679
    edited May 2020
    OrkLads said:

    If they go up in price, then Depth Guard need to be buffed.

    A fair trade would be +100 on bombers, +20 armour on Depth Guard.

    please no my heart can’t take Coast buffs in good conscience. It’s an ill-designed faction that deserves to be low/mid-tier at best.

    Buffing Depth Guard by 20 armor is removing an (intended) roster gap, might as well give Skaven Swordmasters, Chaos Crossbowmen and Empire Stone Trolls.

    It’s OK if Coast players are weak to something and have a couple bad matchups. Just, you know, like everyone else.

    In fact if you compare Coast to Dwarfs you will see that although the Coast-DW matchup is DW-sided, surprisingly Coast does EVERYTHING better than Dwarfs. Has blocker units, has Dogs (very important harass unit that is hard to deny early on unlike Gyrocopters), their infantry holds longer cost-wise and cover more area (so allow for bigger boxes), they have flying missile cav, a regenerating lord...
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,875

    OrkLads said:

    If they go up in price, then Depth Guard need to be buffed.

    A fair trade would be +100 on bombers, +20 armour on Depth Guard.

    To be honest I think the reason why we aren't seeing Depth Guard as much now has more to do with you being able to take 3 bombers which are the same but in 3 places at once. I think a buff to them would not be necessary
    I think the reason we don't see them is that they are a 1200/1300/1600(!) gold unit that performs like an 1000 gold unit at best. It doesn't help that the Coast Gunline is OP, but having a faction with absurdly strong zombie shooters and pitifully weak Vampire combatants makes little sense imo.
    Green0 said:

    OrkLads said:

    If they go up in price, then Depth Guard need to be buffed.

    A fair trade would be +100 on bombers, +20 armour on Depth Guard.

    please no my heart can’t take Coast buffs in good conscience. It’s an ill-designed faction that deserves to be low/mid-tier at best.

    Buffing Depth Guard by 20 armor is removing an (intended) roster gap, might as well give Skaven Swordmasters, Chaos Crossbowmen and Empire Stone Trolls.

    It’s OK if Coast players are weak to something and have a couple bad matchups. Just, you know, like everyone else.

    In fact if you compare Coast to Dwarfs you will see that although the Coast-DW matchup is DW-sided, surprisingly Coast does EVERYTHING better than Dwarfs. Has blocker units, has Dogs (very important harass unit that is hard to deny early on unlike Gyrocopters), their infantry holds longer cost-wise and cover more area (so allow for bigger boxes), they have flying missile cav, a regenerating lord...
    Dwarf infantry is considerably better than Coast infantry, Dwarf Ranged is considerably better than Coast Ranged, the major differences are the unbreakable, mobility, summons, healing, & mass that Coast bring to the table. I agree that Coast are a bit overtuned which is why they need to be rebalanced and part of that rebalance will be making Depthguard no longer Trashguard (at least the axe variant, the halberd variant will always struggle to find a spot on a roster with AP guns).
  • Lotus_MoonLotus_Moon Registered Users Posts: 10,595
    I think depth guard (1200 variant) are a very good unit, the halberd though.....
  • AerocrasticAerocrastic Registered Users Posts: 485
    OrkLads said:

    OrkLads said:

    If they go up in price, then Depth Guard need to be buffed.

    A fair trade would be +100 on bombers, +20 armour on Depth Guard.

    To be honest I think the reason why we aren't seeing Depth Guard as much now has more to do with you being able to take 3 bombers which are the same but in 3 places at once. I think a buff to them would not be necessary
    I think the reason we don't see them is that they are a 1200/1300/1600(!) gold unit that performs like an 1000 gold unit at best. It doesn't help that the Coast Gunline is OP, but having a faction with absurdly strong zombie shooters and pitifully weak Vampire combatants makes little sense imo.
    Green0 said:

    OrkLads said:

    If they go up in price, then Depth Guard need to be buffed.

    A fair trade would be +100 on bombers, +20 armour on Depth Guard.

    please no my heart can’t take Coast buffs in good conscience. It’s an ill-designed faction that deserves to be low/mid-tier at best.

    Buffing Depth Guard by 20 armor is removing an (intended) roster gap, might as well give Skaven Swordmasters, Chaos Crossbowmen and Empire Stone Trolls.

    It’s OK if Coast players are weak to something and have a couple bad matchups. Just, you know, like everyone else.

    In fact if you compare Coast to Dwarfs you will see that although the Coast-DW matchup is DW-sided, surprisingly Coast does EVERYTHING better than Dwarfs. Has blocker units, has Dogs (very important harass unit that is hard to deny early on unlike Gyrocopters), their infantry holds longer cost-wise and cover more area (so allow for bigger boxes), they have flying missile cav, a regenerating lord...
    Dwarf infantry is considerably better than Coast infantry, Dwarf Ranged is considerably better than Coast Ranged, the major differences are the unbreakable, mobility, summons, healing, & mass that Coast bring to the table. I agree that Coast are a bit overtuned which is why they need to be rebalanced and part of that rebalance will be making Depthguard no longer Trashguard (at least the axe variant, the halberd variant will always struggle to find a spot on a roster with AP guns).
    saying that dwarf ranged prowess is better than coast's is a bit of an overgeneralization.
    Rangers occupy a missile type that coast doesn't have
    handguns are functionally thunderers but cheaper (trade shields and armor for less DPS loss through model bleed and more HP)
    hand cannons are kind of relatable to trollhammers but function differently vs infantry and don't have an arc of fire
    bombers are strictly better than miners and cheaper
    pistol mobs for coast have no similar unit in the dwarf roster
    deck gunners are a different class of missile unit than what dwarves have access to
    Organ gun that fights and causes terror for 800 more?
    cheaper cannons maybe not better but I would take the cheaper one over a slightly better and more expensive one anyways

    then every advantage dwarves have on them in the infantry department is made up in a unit class they don't even have: monstrous infantry.

    Mournguls: best in class for 1000 across rosters
    crabs: good because of the generally low armor shared across the rest of the faction low dps blocker unit


    If anything vampirates are most similar to skaven, and in that respect they are just the same but unbreakable. Stormvermin Sword and Shields are not cost effective in their price range: but they don't have to be to be useful to the roster. Depth Guard are the same. Whether they're deserving of a buff should have more to do with whether they are sufficiently adept at a relevant role killing a cheaper stray unit and moving on or beating similarly priced ones with some support or holding the line. Bombers outdo them but this sudden resurgence of bombers now with a damage profile of 15 explosion 5 AP explosion and improvements to bomb damage it was depth guard who got left in the dust by a unit that is leagues ahead of its colleagues and fulfils the same function. So no, it's not a depth guard problem, it's a bomber problem
  • OrkLadsOrkLads Registered Users Posts: 1,875

    OrkLads said:

    OrkLads said:

    If they go up in price, then Depth Guard need to be buffed.

    A fair trade would be +100 on bombers, +20 armour on Depth Guard.

    To be honest I think the reason why we aren't seeing Depth Guard as much now has more to do with you being able to take 3 bombers which are the same but in 3 places at once. I think a buff to them would not be necessary
    I think the reason we don't see them is that they are a 1200/1300/1600(!) gold unit that performs like an 1000 gold unit at best. It doesn't help that the Coast Gunline is OP, but having a faction with absurdly strong zombie shooters and pitifully weak Vampire combatants makes little sense imo.
    Green0 said:

    OrkLads said:

    If they go up in price, then Depth Guard need to be buffed.

    A fair trade would be +100 on bombers, +20 armour on Depth Guard.

    please no my heart can’t take Coast buffs in good conscience. It’s an ill-designed faction that deserves to be low/mid-tier at best.

    Buffing Depth Guard by 20 armor is removing an (intended) roster gap, might as well give Skaven Swordmasters, Chaos Crossbowmen and Empire Stone Trolls.

    It’s OK if Coast players are weak to something and have a couple bad matchups. Just, you know, like everyone else.

    In fact if you compare Coast to Dwarfs you will see that although the Coast-DW matchup is DW-sided, surprisingly Coast does EVERYTHING better than Dwarfs. Has blocker units, has Dogs (very important harass unit that is hard to deny early on unlike Gyrocopters), their infantry holds longer cost-wise and cover more area (so allow for bigger boxes), they have flying missile cav, a regenerating lord...
    Dwarf infantry is considerably better than Coast infantry, Dwarf Ranged is considerably better than Coast Ranged, the major differences are the unbreakable, mobility, summons, healing, & mass that Coast bring to the table. I agree that Coast are a bit overtuned which is why they need to be rebalanced and part of that rebalance will be making Depthguard no longer Trashguard (at least the axe variant, the halberd variant will always struggle to find a spot on a roster with AP guns).
    saying that dwarf ranged prowess is better than coast's is a bit of an overgeneralization.
    Rangers occupy a missile type that coast doesn't have
    handguns are functionally thunderers but cheaper (trade shields and armor for less DPS loss through model bleed and more HP)
    hand cannons are kind of relatable to trollhammers but function differently vs infantry and don't have an arc of fire
    bombers are strictly better than miners and cheaper
    pistol mobs for coast have no similar unit in the dwarf roster
    deck gunners are a different class of missile unit than what dwarves have access to
    Organ gun that fights and causes terror for 800 more?
    cheaper cannons maybe not better but I would take the cheaper one over a slightly better and more expensive one anyways

    then every advantage dwarves have on them in the infantry department is made up in a unit class they don't even have: monstrous infantry.

    Mournguls: best in class for 1000 across rosters
    crabs: good because of the generally low armor shared across the rest of the faction low dps blocker unit


    If anything vampirates are most similar to skaven, and in that respect they are just the same but unbreakable. Stormvermin Sword and Shields are not cost effective in their price range: but they don't have to be to be useful to the roster. Depth Guard are the same. Whether they're deserving of a buff should have more to do with whether they are sufficiently adept at a relevant role killing a cheaper stray unit and moving on or beating similarly priced ones with some support or holding the line. Bombers outdo them but this sudden resurgence of bombers now with a damage profile of 15 explosion 5 AP explosion and improvements to bomb damage it was depth guard who got left in the dust by a unit that is leagues ahead of its colleagues and fulfils the same function. So no, it's not a depth guard problem, it's a bomber problem
    Dwarf range is much stronger than Coasts, it has to be because they can't protect it with high mass units & summons like Coast can. I agree that Coast's missile line can often be more effective but that is purely because their auxiliary units, high mass units, and CC abilities are far more useful for this than anything the Dwarfs have access to. But if looking at purely ranged power and cost effectiveness then the Dwarfs ranged is much better than Coast. Try and play a Coast gunline build without taking any high mass units or summons and see how it goes compared to doing the same with the Dwarfs (which you are forced to do because there is no high mass units).

    Comparing infantry lines and adding in monstrous infantry is an unfair comparison because one of the most important things the monstrous infantry does is provide mass which is something no infantry in the game can do (except the rare few with slows). If we compare the actual infantry that Coast has available compared to what Dwarfs have available, the comparison isn't close in terms of powerlevels/versatility.

    All the above isn't to say that Coast isn't overtuned or that bombers shouldn't get nerfed. But just because certain things in the roster need to be tuned down (I would add Luthor Harkon on Terrorgheist, Zombie gun mob summon, accuracy on pirate handgun mobs) doesn't mean that other things in the roster aren't underperforming sometimes by quite a signfiicant margin (Depth Guard, Deck Dropper (bombers) being two notable standouts).
  • eumaieseumaies Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 7,529
    Well said (on both sides). I never scoff at cheapness but I don’t think pirate cannons would serve dwarf needs - the reduced accuracy just isn’t reliable enough to do the deed in a short amount of time.

    Thunderers aren’t just fancy handguns, they’re robust to archers which means they are versatile in a way zombie guns aren’t.

    Trollhammers were mentioned and whether flame or anti large both versions vastly outcompete handcannons in versatility and overall utility.

    Dwarf ranged has to do it all and so it does.

    That said I agree for the most part with aero in concept - vampire swords don’t have to be any good just better than the alternatives in the roster. They succeed just barely because even though they are weak at anti inf they can do their job and are less susceptible to anti large than the alternatives.

    Until zombie bombers. Which by the way work well against dwarves too since you hardly have enough arrows or time to stop a 400 point unit when his friends are chewing you apart. I guess it’s nice pirates can win that matchup too now but maybe there was a way to do that with a unit that doesn’t help pirates across the board. Hope they get a price increase.
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