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Skaven AI ridiculously op in Campaign

ceejayx1ceejayx1 Registered Users Posts: 8
edited May 11 in General Discussion
just a quick summary of my last 20 campaigns on vh/vh in the last ~2 months on vortex map playing as high elves:

Skrolk teaming up with Lokir and luthor, 100% of the time completly conquering Lustria (90% of the work is skrolk)... sometimes teclis and khalida can give them a little bit of a fight, but not very long... itza/ wulfhart/ tehenhauin are simply fodder for skrolk.

Clan Mors running over Kroqgar 90% of the time and Clan Eshin (the most op of them all) in EVERY single campaign conquering all of the desserts with ease....at the end, one of them confederates the other, more than often its clan mors.... but 100% of the time skaven are owning the whole southlands...

clan rictus on its own holding against all the dark elves for about 60-80 turns in like every campaign...

its in every campaign i stand at turn 100-150 (depends) against skrolk with 50 settlements and clan eshin/mors with 50 settlements....

dark elves conquering naggaroth 100% of the time should be no surprise as its the case with high elves and ulthuan...

but on the other 2 continents the "good" races are massively inferior... skaven owning both is 100% the case in my campaigns... im not even exaggerating... it is literally 100%.

i find it kind of boring tbh... to always have to play against skaven in lategame...




Post edited by dge1 on

Comments

  • DjauDjau Registered Users Posts: 10,412
    Its cause Skaven has the most content so far for any WH2 race.

  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,661
    It's not quantity of content - it balance of content.

    Game 2 has seen WILDLY over powered units and game mechanics to a degree that is entirely nonsensical.

    They are focused more and more on over-powering a select 'core' of units, and slowly killing off the rest of the roster so that they don't have to balance as much.

    I honestly suspect MP is part of this, as they optimize towards specific units as a matter of course when playing competitively - and these are all the units that keep getting buffed to ever greater degrees.

    The diversity in rosters is actually slowing being choked to death by poor balancing and power gaming.
  • KARGEKARGE Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,428
    @Itharus yeah I wish they would balance MP by changing the cost of units, not their stats.

    I havent played enough of new patch to comment on skaven except to say I dread fighting them on campaign as they spam their bombardment spell and I find their retreat, rally, retreat tactics frustrating

    not a complaint as such I guess, its good to mix it up.
  • KillTheWorldKillTheWorld Registered Users Posts: 423
    There's no difference between changing prices and stats, you can consider a price decrease of 10% exactly the same as boosting all of the units stats by 10% at the old price. Literally identical.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 35,584
    karge068 said:

    @Itharus yeah I wish they would balance MP by changing the cost of units, not their stats.

    I havent played enough of new patch to comment on skaven except to say I dread fighting them on campaign as they spam their bombardment spell and I find their retreat, rally, retreat tactics frustrating

    not a complaint as such I guess, its good to mix it up.

    You say that like the stats come out perfect and can only be tarred by changing them.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu usurper, pog wog warrior, poggers patroller

  • GoatforceGoatforce Registered Users Posts: 8,013
    Itharus said:

    It's not quantity of content - it balance of content.

    Game 2 has seen WILDLY over powered units and game mechanics to a degree that is entirely nonsensical.

    They are focused more and more on over-powering a select 'core' of units, and slowly killing off the rest of the roster so that they don't have to balance as much.

    I honestly suspect MP is part of this, as they optimize towards specific units as a matter of course when playing competitively - and these are all the units that keep getting buffed to ever greater degrees.

    The diversity in rosters is actually slowing being choked to death by poor balancing and power gaming.

    Eh? When a unit is over performing it is often the MPers that are complaining, and pure single players complaining when the strong thing gets nerfed, not the other way around.

    I would really like to see an example of MPers arguing that a strong unit should be buffed further, this kinda sounds like "have an issue? It must be MPs fault"
  • SeswathaSeswatha Registered Users Posts: 4,757
    edited May 2020
    In battle unit performance or faction mechanics have close to 0 impact on AI performance in campaign, it's all about auto resolve. Skaven auto resolve seems to have gotten significant buffs, but personally I haven't seen it being super dominant in my campaigns.

    To be honest, it's incredibly hard to balance the campaign so that there's an even chance of each faction dominating, you either have an 80% of ordertide or some other faction dominating.

    At least Greenskins and Skaven being the biggest threats (outside of a full blown chaos invasion) is more lore friendly and any of the evil factions being dominant is not as bad for gameplay as the ordertide because at least they don't like each other. Although in my experience, ordertide is still happening (but GS & Skaven do much better than before).

    Ideally I would accept that it's impossible to balance so that everyone is happy and just give an option to select which factions will get an autoresolve "boost" at the start of the campaign, by default if you play an order faction all destruction factions should get a boost and vice versa.

  • KARGEKARGE Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,428

    karge068 said:

    @Itharus yeah I wish they would balance MP by changing the cost of units, not their stats.

    I havent played enough of new patch to comment on skaven except to say I dread fighting them on campaign as they spam their bombardment spell and I find their retreat, rally, retreat tactics frustrating

    not a complaint as such I guess, its good to mix it up.

    You say that like the stats come out perfect and can only be tarred by changing them.
    I dont understand what you are saying
  • BrynjarKBrynjarK Registered Users Posts: 896
    He means that units on release are not always balanced. Which in many cases we have seen is true
  • Mr_Finley7Mr_Finley7 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 8,076
    I’d rather have OP Skaven then the previous state where they’re wiped off the map by turn 40. Skaven should be a major threat.

    That said, their should be more of a tendency for infighting, mb have some kind of great power penalty that only applies with other Skaven. When they get too powerful they tend to turn on each other.
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,661
    Goatforce said:

    Itharus said:

    It's not quantity of content - it balance of content.

    Game 2 has seen WILDLY over powered units and game mechanics to a degree that is entirely nonsensical.

    They are focused more and more on over-powering a select 'core' of units, and slowly killing off the rest of the roster so that they don't have to balance as much.

    I honestly suspect MP is part of this, as they optimize towards specific units as a matter of course when playing competitively - and these are all the units that keep getting buffed to ever greater degrees.

    The diversity in rosters is actually slowing being choked to death by poor balancing and power gaming.

    Eh? When a unit is over performing it is often the MPers that are complaining, and pure single players complaining when the strong thing gets nerfed, not the other way around.

    I would really like to see an example of MPers arguing that a strong unit should be buffed further, this kinda sounds like "have an issue? It must be MPs fault"
    Not really. You're just wrong. It's ok though, I don't hold it against you.
  • saweendrasaweendra Registered Users Posts: 17,630
    Itharus said:

    It's not quantity of content - it balance of content.

    Game 2 has seen WILDLY over powered units and game mechanics to a degree that is entirely nonsensical.

    They are focused more and more on over-powering a select 'core' of units, and slowly killing off the rest of the roster so that they don't have to balance as much.

    I honestly suspect MP is part of this, as they optimize towards specific units as a matter of course when playing competitively - and these are all the units that keep getting buffed to ever greater degrees.

    The diversity in rosters is actually slowing being choked to death by poor balancing and power gaming.

    Eh if it wasn't for mp. Things like scorge runners will be op. And war wagons will still suck, gyros will be wortless. And baor boys will never get the armour buff. Or boar chariots won't get the adjusting it needed. I can go on.

    There were some bad things as well won'tie.

    But the series piwer creep in mechanics and mounts thats not mp fault. Heck there is lot of people upset over that in mp.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • casuallyfilthycasuallyfilthy Registered Users Posts: 1
    Personally I find that campaign map Skaven are ridiciulous. They seem to have lightning strike ealy, they pop up always out of nowhere and every fight seems to a 1v3 of my forces to theirs. I have lost more games to Skaven than I have won, or lost to anyone else. It's madness. It sounds like a rant, but surely I can't be the only one experiencing this?
  • drogarito92drogarito92 Registered Users Posts: 1,038
    If someone is OP, that's the wood elves. I mean you just cannot kill them in the late game. Also, the dwarves can be the real nightmare in the campaign.
  • SamHobbs494SamHobbs494 Registered Users Posts: 249

    If someone is OP, that's the wood elves. I mean you just cannot kill them in the late game. Also, the dwarves can be the real nightmare in the campaign.

    You have dwarfs in your version of TWW?

    Dead by turn 20-30 for me to orks in every single campaign. Dwarfs haven't been a power in any of my campaigns for months and months.
  • drogarito92drogarito92 Registered Users Posts: 1,038
    Playing with Vampire Counts versus Dwarves all around was the hardest campaign for me ever. If you don't kill them fast, you can do nothing to them. And 1 of their LL-s singlehandedly almost destroyed my 2 armies. (i can't remember the name of the LL)
  • SamHobbs494SamHobbs494 Registered Users Posts: 249

    Playing with Vampire Counts versus Dwarves all around was the hardest campaign for me ever. If you don't kill them fast, you can do nothing to them. And 1 of their LL-s singlehandedly almost destroyed my 2 armies. (i can't remember the name of the LL)

    I have never had a dwarf problem in any VC campaign either. They never attack me at any point entire campaign time after time and I leave well enough alone because I am not stupid lol.
  • sandercohensandercohen Registered Users Posts: 362
    You guys do realize you are reviving a two year old thread?
  • Tancred2QuenellesTancred2Quenelles Registered Users Posts: 1,054
    Also Trech steamrolling dark elves. Its utterly stupidly disgusting - ai should search ruins once in at least 10 turns - skaven are inwisible concuer and loose nothing

  • HarveyJamesHarveyJames Registered Users Posts: 162
    the balancing factors for their missile units arent in the game like they are in TT , being unreliable and imploding on themselves and lack of unit caps on non core troops
  • IchonIchon Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,782
    There is a mod that adds misfires now- it is mostly a graphical effect but in long battles vs multiple Skaven armies 1/3 of their artillery explodes.
    YouTube, it takes over your mind and guides you to strange places like tutorials on how to talk to a giraffe.
  • boosykesboosykes Registered Users Posts: 139

    In battle unit performance or faction mechanics have close to 0 impact on AI performance in campaign, it's all about auto resolve. Skaven auto resolve seems to have gotten significant buffs, but personally I haven't seen it being super dominant in my campaigns.

    To be honest, it's incredibly hard to balance the campaign so that there's an even chance of each faction dominating, you either have an 80% of ordertide or some other faction dominating.

    At least Greenskins and Skaven being the biggest threats (outside of a full blown chaos invasion) is more lore friendly and any of the evil factions being dominant is not as bad for gameplay as the ordertide because at least they don't like each other. Although in my experience, ordertide is still happening (but GS & Skaven do much better than before).

    Ideally I would accept that it's impossible to balance so that everyone is happy and just give an option to select which factions will get an autoresolve "boost" at the start of the campaign, by default if you play an order faction all destruction factions should get a boost and vice versa.

    funny 2 years ago this was requested it was put in warhammer 3 and now people **** about it.
  • boosykesboosykes Registered Users Posts: 139

    by default if you play an order faction all destruction factions should get a boost and vice versa.

  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 14,661
    saweendra said:

    Itharus said:

    It's not quantity of content - it balance of content.

    Game 2 has seen WILDLY over powered units and game mechanics to a degree that is entirely nonsensical.

    They are focused more and more on over-powering a select 'core' of units, and slowly killing off the rest of the roster so that they don't have to balance as much.

    I honestly suspect MP is part of this, as they optimize towards specific units as a matter of course when playing competitively - and these are all the units that keep getting buffed to ever greater degrees.

    The diversity in rosters is actually slowing being choked to death by poor balancing and power gaming.

    Eh if it wasn't for mp. Things like scorge runners will be op. And war wagons will still suck, gyros will be wortless. And baor boys will never get the armour buff. Or boar chariots won't get the adjusting it needed. I can go on.

    There were some bad things as well won'tie.

    But the series piwer creep in mechanics and mounts thats not mp fault. Heck there is lot of people upset over that in mp.
    Nonsense. I've been griping about boar and chariot and gyro issues since bloody game 1. It had nothing to do with MP. CA just took their sweet time getting to it because they always had other priorities.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 35,584

    karge068 said:

    @Itharus yeah I wish they would balance MP by changing the cost of units, not their stats.

    I havent played enough of new patch to comment on skaven except to say I dread fighting them on campaign as they spam their bombardment spell and I find their retreat, rally, retreat tactics frustrating

    not a complaint as such I guess, its good to mix it up.

    You say that like the stats come out perfect and can only be tarred by changing them.
    Good point Beast.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu usurper, pog wog warrior, poggers patroller

  • overtaker40overtaker40 Registered Users Posts: 834
    That's not my experience and I have 2000 hours. Sure, skaven are usually strong but the order tide wins most of the time, especially since the vampire ai were nurfed. And I have seen lizard men win lustria many times. I do agree about eshen though they always seem to do well. Morrs not so much.
    I like all the races. Equally. Wood elves are just the first among equals.
  • Vanilla_GorillaVanilla_Gorilla Registered Users Posts: 35,584

    That's not my experience and I have 2000 hours. Sure, skaven are usually strong but the order tide wins most of the time, especially since the vampire ai were nurfed. And I have seen lizard men win lustria many times. I do agree about eshen though they always seem to do well. Morrs not so much.

    Look at the date homie.
    "There's no fun in picking on the weak. If you must, go for the mountain high, the language most foreign, target the strong." - Kenny Florian

    "I like small words" - Winsy C

    Forum Terms & Conditions

    I am The Beast, Son of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, Conqueror of Mountains, purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu usurper, pog wog warrior, poggers patroller

  • overtaker40overtaker40 Registered Users Posts: 834

    That's not my experience and I have 2000 hours. Sure, skaven are usually strong but the order tide wins most of the time, especially since the vampire ai were nurfed. And I have seen lizard men win lustria many times. I do agree about eshen though they always seem to do well. Morrs not so much.

    Look at the date homie.
    Oh ****, the resurrection of this thread clearly proves nagash is coming.
    I like all the races. Equally. Wood elves are just the first among equals.
  • Hanzo11Hanzo11 Registered Users Posts: 163

    Playing with Vampire Counts versus Dwarves all around was the hardest campaign for me ever. If you don't kill them fast, you can do nothing to them. And 1 of their LL-s singlehandedly almost destroyed my 2 armies. (i can't remember the name of the LL)

    While dwarves are generally taken out by orcs over the course of a campaign, their high armour stats, magic resistance and overall decent infantry make them a tough road block for vampire counts while they around. They are disadvantaged because the most optimal approach is to build wide with armies and have multiple armies with low tier infantry because of no upkeep skeletons and the vampire count economy depending so heavily on lvl 4 and 5. The issue is that dwarves will mulch your chaff and taking more elite units with AP is a significant economic hit. The counts need some reworked stats and campaign mechanics to provide more options and address their dependency on no upkeep skeletons.

    Like others have said, Skaven are likely snow balling due to auto resolve tweaks, their ability to ambush so easily and a roster that is fairly strong compared to other factions.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 32,723
    edited May 11
    I smell necromancy.
    Nurgle is love, Nurgle is life
This discussion has been closed.