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Morathi corruption should it stay?

Rebelever85Rebelever85 Registered Users Posts: 125
While in theory Morathi should spread corruption in the game it simply doesn't work well.


Firstly the fact that the spread of corruption makes it extrewely hard to do diplomacy with anyone. The people who should be your allies won't even trade with you and the chaos factions see you as just another target. So you can't make friends...at least not easily and everyone hates you. The whole of the Helf faction just chain invite each other to go to war with you, that seems inevitable. I can't even get a trade deal with Naggaroth half the time. The other issue is most of the smaller sub factions you could have dealt with before aren't surviving long enough to be relevant.

I personally think its far too overt for Morathi, she never likes to show her hand and always plays on the role of being loyal to Khaine even though she isn't.

So far as i remember from the old world she and her son were for the most part a team and perhaps Melekith didn't trust his mother much he usually worked with her.

If she is to spread corruption then should chaos really be attacking her like everyone else? If she is going to be an agent of chaos she should get some benefit for it surely? Its just all negatives with the corruption spread. Morathi maybe corrupt but shes not an idiot. she certainly wouldn't want everyone to turn on her.

TLDR - It makes her too isolated as a faction as getting any long term allies is unlikely where as the amount of factions that want to destroy her is rather large. All the time there is no real benefits coming from it at all.
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Comments

  • Nitros14Nitros14 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,844
    I think it's fine. The End Times are approaching this is the time to show your hand.
  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 5,181
    Yeah the corruption should stay and I don't think it affects her diplomacy at all. She's surrounded by enemies, obviously everyone wants to kill her.

    If she is to spread corruption then should chaos really be attacking her like everyone else? If she is going to be an agent of chaos she should get some benefit for it surely?


    As the Chaos invasion is lead by Archaon I think it actually makes sense he wants to kill her though I think her faction should be fleshed out. The corruption is not enough and I would like her to get some Slaanesh themed units.
  • Ingr8Ingr8 Registered Users Posts: 835
    My greatest complaint is that anything under 100% corruption can trigger rebellions far too often. I quite like the fact that she has it as it can hurt invaders and cause problems for anyone who has taken one of your settlements - more importantly it sets her apart from other DE lords which is good imo - she was my favourite lord at launch for this reason.

    However on higher difficulties, as I said, it makes expansion a pain in the arse. I think it needs a bit of a tweak in respect to public order but I do want it retained.
    Dreaming of mighty Lumbria

  • EquixEquix Registered Users Posts: 791
    I would like Morathi to get rid of chaos corruption on her gameplay system, chaos is boring


    My heart is for Nagash.
    My dreams are made of Elves..
    And my soul always sides with ogres, goblins and beastmen.

    Amazons and Cathay are coming!
  • EmeraldThanatosEmeraldThanatos Registered Users Posts: 349
    Nitros14 said:

    I think it's fine. The End Times are approaching this is the time to show your hand.

    While I do want the world to be destroyed I hope they handle it better than the end times and give characters satisfying deaths. My suggestion: End times but well written.
    Ranking of all Total War games I've played:
    1. Three kingdoms
    2. Shogun 2
    3. Warhammer 1/2
    4. Medieval 2
    5. Thrones of Britannia
    6. Attila
    7. Rome
    9. Rome 2


  • SakuraHeinzSakuraHeinz Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,510
    Morathi and Norsca are the only viable Chaos factions at the moment, NO it should not get removed.

    And I also want them to add daemonettes to the Slaanesh building when they arrive in game 3.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    edited May 26
    100% No to her corruption!

    She's the only character with Chaos corruption outside of the wastes and Norsca aside from Skeggi and she has no natural affinity with Chaos factions so she's stuck between a rock and a hardplace on an island unto herself with her corruption.

    The Corruption literally means she cannot cohabitate with other Dark Elf factions...the Mother of the Druchii, literally cannot have Druchii allies on her border without harming them.

    This also means you cant really run a Maliketh/Morathi co-op campaign (or a co-op campaign of any kind with Morathi unless its her and chaos) because she will have to cause corruption around you.

    And if CA was to take it in the 6th edition (no longer cannon) direction and give her Chaos units, this would make the issues even worse and mess up her roster. DE's already struggle to distinguish themselves from Slaanesh at the best of times and GW should be doing everything in their power to distance them from this similarity rather than leaning into it (something they figured out far too late).

    Chaos is a faction with an inherent lack of ranged and Artillery (with a couple of exceptions)...DE's are a faction with great range and Artillery, so giving Morathi Daemonettes and stuff like that breaks the balance of the roster those units are made for and Daemonettes / Marauders etc would make Bleakswords, Dreadspears and Witch Elves redundant because its just them, but better.

    You might as well make Morathi a Norsca or Chaos LL at that point because you will have detached her so severely from her faction that she cannot cohabitate with them, can't play in co-op with them, uses completely different units to them, spreads corruption instead of Untainted and all the rest of it.
    Post edited by SeanJeanquoi on
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    It doesn't work from a gameplay perspective, its based on ret-conned lore, its detrimental to her factions aesthetic, it makes them less unique, it breaks the isometric balance of both rosters because they either perfectly overlap (making 1 redundant) or they are contradictory (giving Chaos units to a faction with good range and artillery)
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    If they really wanted to, they could make the corruption optional, like at the beginning of her campaign you get a dilemma where you have to choose to worship Atharti and Hakarti or try and trick Slaanesh into giving you what you want.

    This is the best case scenario, because adding Chaos units to her roster would take 0 effort. Just port them over after they're implemented into the Chaos factions. But expanding on a Cult of Atharti/Hakarti would take actual effort and require a Sub-faction DLC type expansion.

    Even then though, I would be more in favour of going full Atharti than adding Chaos units.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    edited May 26

    Morathi and Norsca are the only viable Chaos factions at the moment, NO it should not get removed.

    And I also want them to add daemonettes to the Slaanesh building when they arrive in game 3.

    Thats not an argument though, thats like saying x Character shouldn't be a horde because hordes suck right now. It has no bearing on whether or not it should actually be a thing and more to do with the state of the game right now. Its incredibly short sighted and narrow minded.
  • Ingr8Ingr8 Registered Users Posts: 835

    It doesn't work from a gameplay perspective, its based on ret-conned lore, its detrimental to her factions aesthetic, it makes them less unique, it breaks the isometric balance of both rosters because they either perfectly overlap (making 1 redundant) or they are contradictory (giving Chaos units to a faction with good range and artillery)

    It does work from a gameplay perspective and adds variation to the faction. How on earth does it possibly make her faction "less unique" to have different mechanics and traits to the other DE factions?!?

    Considering that GW abandoned the WHFB I don't see how the fluffers can argue that one version of the lore is more valid than the others!
    Dreaming of mighty Lumbria

  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 5,181
    Equix said:

    I would like Morathi to get rid of chaos corruption on her gameplay system, chaos is boring

    Well if Chaos is boring you got 4 others DE LLs to play.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    @Ingr8

    It makes the Dark Elves less unique because it blends them together with another faction that is basically the exact same as them and because it incorporates units into her roster that are either themselves redundant or make DE units redundant...because they're basically the same thing.

    It doesn't work for all the reasons I just stated, you can't disprove all that by simply saying 'but it does doh'

    I am not one of those people that regularly dunks on things for being too old or outdated or whatever, because I know the actual threshold for what is and isn't legit: unless it was intentionally overwritten by something else, officially denounced or totally contradicts modern lore, then its still cannon.

    The problem with Chaos Morathi is that it was overwritten, does contradict modern lore and was officially denounced along with everything else in 6th edition.

    CA has used some bits and bobs from 6th ed, but thats because they only add a net positive to the game and lore and do not contradict/overwrite new lore.

    A good comparison to Morathi would be Eltharion the Blind. I really wanted him reguardless but the fact of the matter is that his lore was officially denounced, overwritten and contradicts current lore. Chaos Morathi is in the same boat.

    Then theres the fact that at the end of the day, Chaos Morathi is way less interesting than the potential for a Cult of Atharti/Hakarti because Chaos Morathi is just a bunch of units unceremoniously cannibalised from Chaos factions, while the Cult of Atharti/Hakarti offers an opportunity to make her and the Dark Elves more unique, interesting and distinct from Slaanesh. The Cults of Pleasure and Excess are half of the Dark Elf factions aesthetic, they're the otherside of the coin to Khaine and throughout all of WHFB they went unexplored or they were just a stupid copy of Chaos. That should change for obvious reasons.
  • ChesterMcGirrChesterMcGirr Registered Users Posts: 724
    I like it when playing as Morathi you select a town...

    "A vile corruption is spreading"

    Dude chill it's us we're immune to it okay?
  • crazycrixcrazycrix Registered Users Posts: 589
    She slept with N’kari (if the daemom is to be believed) on multiple occasion, she led cults of the pleasure god (not goddess) in Sword of Caledor and had marauders at her command, she should spread chaos corruption and get her SoC army list.

    We Do Not Serve, We Rule!
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    crazycrix said:

    She slept with N’kari (if the daemom is to be believed) on multiple occasion, she led cults of the pleasure god (not goddess) in Sword of Caledor and had marauders at her command, she should spread chaos corruption and get her SoC army list.

    That was all ret-conned in 7th edition and the Marauders and stuff was part of 6th edition which was all offiially ret-conned and made non-cannon.

    She slept with either Slaanesh or N'ari but its implied to have been without her knowledge, Slaanesh/N'kari can shapeshift and disguise themselves as different people.

    While Morathi herself could be argued to be Chaos inclined outside of the ret-conned stuff, that doesn't mean the Druchii cults of pleasure and excess are all on board for that and even if they're doing some Slaaneshi stuff, that shouldn't result in the ground becoming corrupted and daemons teleporting in from the warp, etc.
  • dreagondreagon Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,143
    It should stay. It makes her faction stand out from other dark elf factions. It's also no real big hinderence because it doesn't affect diplomacy at all and the only negative effect is that you lose public order because of the lack of corruption. But this is fairly easily managed by the unique structure in Quintex and the fact that her corruption and public order structure are the same building. The only thing that's annoying is that rebellions that do happen are chaos rebels who are quite strong.
    "The dog is a peasant and the cat is a gentleman." H.P. Lovecraft
  • crazycrixcrazycrix Registered Users Posts: 589

    crazycrix said:

    She slept with N’kari (if the daemom is to be believed) on multiple occasion, she led cults of the pleasure god (not goddess) in Sword of Caledor and had marauders at her command, she should spread chaos corruption and get her SoC army list.

    That was all ret-conned in 7th edition and the Marauders and stuff was part of 6th edition which was all offiially ret-conned and made non-cannon.

    She slept with either Slaanesh or N'ari but its implied to have been without her knowledge, Slaanesh/N'kari can shapeshift and disguise themselves as different people.

    While Morathi herself could be argued to be Chaos inclined outside of the ret-conned stuff, that doesn't mean the Druchii cults of pleasure and excess are all on board for that and even if they're doing some Slaaneshi stuff, that shouldn't result in the ground becoming corrupted and daemons teleporting in from the warp, etc.
    I do agree with you that she should have had some kind of different pleasure cult’s corruption and should have been able to spread it through Ulthuan via her tech tree and make it a bit harder for HElves of Ulthuan. No need for her to live in Wasteland. Still, she is the enemy of the elves as was noted by Aenarion himself, when he had the urge to strike her down. She’s like Palpatine in a way, leading both cult of Khaine and pleasure cults, who hate each other’s guts.

    We Do Not Serve, We Rule!
  • AnedonAnedon Registered Users Posts: 146
    She should keep it. Her being a chaos worshipper was one of the cool things about the Druchii before they ruined them in later editions by trying to excuse all their evil stuff.
    Just think how Malekith was changed from an awesome elven Darth Vader into a whiny Kylo Ren who never did anything wrong and never wanted to hurt anyone in the End Times.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    @crazycrix

    This doesn't really have anything to do with her getting boring chaos units copy-paste into her roster though. Yes she is a bit like a Palpatine but being a servant of Chaos robs her of her agency as a character and the uniqueness of her faction.

    She should be like a Nagash type, someone who is an evil powerful force all to herself, even if she does dabble in trying to play others like Slaanesh, Atharti and Hakarti.

    I do like the idea of her spreading her sex cults everywhere but they could work like undercities more than actual Chaos corruption. That would be 100 times more thematic because she literally does keep an army of attractive women in her service and use them as spies in the same way Neferata does: she sends them out to become part of the enemy's court with the intent of seducing them or influincing them in some way.

    Ulthuan is known to have issues with Cults of Excess and Pleasure cropping up and its often the DE's that have infiltrated the island (usually on Morathi's orders)

    This would be way more sneaky and thematic than the overt bombastic corruption she has now.
  • crazycrixcrazycrix Registered Users Posts: 589

    @crazycrix

    This doesn't really have anything to do with her getting boring chaos units copy-paste into her roster though. Yes she is a bit like a Palpatine but being a servant of Chaos robs her of her agency as a character and the uniqueness of her faction.

    She should be like a Nagash type, someone who is an evil powerful force all to herself, even if she does dabble in trying to play others like Slaanesh, Atharti and Hakarti.

    I do like the idea of her spreading her sex cults everywhere but they could work like undercities more than actual Chaos corruption. That would be 100 times more thematic because she literally does keep an army of attractive women in her service and use them as spies in the same way Neferata does: she sends them out to become part of the enemy's court with the intent of seducing them or influincing them in some way.

    Ulthuan is known to have issues with Cults of Excess and Pleasure cropping up and its often the DE's that have infiltrated the island (usually on Morathi's orders)

    This would be way more sneaky and thematic than the overt bombastic corruption she has now.

    As I noted before, she led marauders in sword of caledor which as a story still remains canon. She has dealings with daemons more then anyone and I would not be against her SoC armylist (we already got Snikch’s and probably will get Aislinn’s and Boris’ lists as well), so this would make her somewhat different and hybrid army (something DElves as of now do not have).

    We Do Not Serve, We Rule!
  • Ingr8Ingr8 Registered Users Posts: 835
    @SeanJeanquoi

    Yeah, your arguments don't stand up. The fact that even GW washed their hands of the game means that 8th ed is no more valid than 4th ed.

    And how does Morathi having Chaos corruption blend her in with another faction? It doesn't
    Dreaming of mighty Lumbria

  • Rebelever85Rebelever85 Registered Users Posts: 125
    edited May 26
    So people think Melektih wouldn't mind his mom making the world a place where he and his followers literally cannot live? I think he might take issue with that. Currently unless you can confederate Morathi she is as big a pain as any enemy faction for Melekith. Even having bordering territories is a pain due to the way corruption spreads.

    Morathi wants Melekith to rule Ulthuaan she has a funny way of doing it when she makes most of his territory a wasteland that kills him and his people.

    I can think of 2 options

    1) Remove the corruption
    2) Make Dark Elve ignore corruption

    How does the second fit in? Literally that is what Melekith is doing with his mother...he ignores her little cults because they are a minor annoyance....but if she was to say make half "his" territory unlivable....you best bet he would put an end to it.

    Lets be real though, Melekith doesn't support slaanesh at all he wouldn't tolerate his lands being corrupted, not even from his own mother. Basically she is forcing his hand, Morathi relies on being subtle and corruption of large strips of land is anything but that.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    @crazycrix

    Novels are the most inconcistent and least reliable sources of information. Sword of Caledor is also an end times novel correct? or there abouts? and we all know the quality (or lack there of) of the End Times in general. Writers admitted that they forgot things and mixed up the timelines even among their own stories nevermind with the rest of the lore.

    Even if you were right, this is an anomoly and doesn't dispel all the other points against Chaos Morathi.
  • SeanJeanquoiSeanJeanquoi Registered Users Posts: 2,663
    @Ingr8

    You literally don't even have arguments so until you present some you haven't a leg to stand on.
  • Ingr8Ingr8 Registered Users Posts: 835

    @Ingr8

    You literally don't even have arguments so until you present some you haven't a leg to stand on.

    Hah hah hah haha hah hah hah
    Dreaming of mighty Lumbria

  • IndefatigableIndefatigable Registered Users Posts: 34

    @Ingr8

    You literally don't even have arguments so until you present some you haven't a leg to stand on.

    Yes you are talking nonsense. Chaos corruption is not by itself incompatible with missile units which seems to be part of your logic, whilst Morathi having corruption as a mechanic does separate her from the other Dark Elf legendary lords... your arguments are nonsensical
  • crazycrixcrazycrix Registered Users Posts: 589

    @crazycrix

    Novels are the most inconcistent and least reliable sources of information. Sword of Caledor is also an end times novel correct? or there abouts? and we all know the quality (or lack there of) of the End Times in general. Writers admitted that they forgot things and mixed up the timelines even among their own stories nevermind with the rest of the lore.

    Even if you were right, this is an anomoly and doesn't dispel all the other points against Chaos Morathi.

    No, that one is from Tyrion & Teclis trilogy and I have not found many inconsistencies between the books. Yeah the name of Caledor II is changed between Sundering and War of Vengence (or that first kid died with his mother and uncle Dareon during the end of Tor Caled and Menlaeth was different kid of Imrik), but that’s about it. The books are canon if they do not go againts the armybook, in which case armybook overrules them. To conclude, Morathi can have her SoC armylist no problem, the only thing that would be nice, if changed, is her spreading the chaos corruption. As I stated before, she should be able to spread her Luxury and Pleasure cults and cause uprisings in Ulthuan.

    We Do Not Serve, We Rule!
  • Some_ScribeSome_Scribe Registered Users Posts: 1,376
    I actually really like the concept of Morathi spreading corruption as it shows one of the big differences between her and her son. Both Malekith and Morathi have no scruples about working with daemons to advance their goals, but Morathi was always the one more inclined towards Chaos (to the point of seducing and less caring about the risks and costs. They also compete for influence and control over the Dark Elves, with Morathi aiming to be the power behind the throne.

    If you play as Malekith, you're trying to rein in your mother's daemon-dabbling before it destroys the world you want to conquer and rule, and you uniting with her means you've succeeded in putting her in her place (firmly under your thumb). If you play as Morathi, you're using the Cult of Pleasure to spread your influence and power in Naggaroth like she does in the lore, and you uniting with your son means you've established sway over him and are now the de facto ruler of the Druchii.

    The corruption Morathi spreads represents the Cult of Pleasure undermining the other Dark Elf lords at her behest.
  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Registered Users Posts: 1,868
    It adds nothing worthwhile for me. Then again, I am not a fan of the way DE play in general, so perhaps I have not played her enough to appreciate aspects of her campaign.

    From a lore standpoint, I hate the Chaos links. I thought it would be more interesting as two forms of evil who hate each other's guts, while gods just laugh and watch. The active Chaos corruption represents open Chaos worship and seems excessive to me. Then, there is the dichotomy of untainted Malekith and practically tentacle-waving Morathi. How stupid are they meant to be?

    As for the game? I see nothing good in Chaos corruption. It doesn't even provide intelligent challenge for the player. When you have both LLs, one or the other becomes a nuisance. Chaos corruption is a cancer for anyone who isn't Cult of Pleasure. Heck, with all those AI bonuses, corruption is an almost irrelevant mechanic anyway. It's basically just a straight nerf.

    Say no to Chaos, Morathi. Chaos is for Chaos. Chaos elves have no friends.
    Grom comes. Elves quake. Grom comes. Dragons wake.
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