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Changes To Campaign Waagh Proposal

ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 26,340
There's currently a very big problem with the Waagh...it's fully optional and often just taking the "best" trophy of your choice and then never activating the Waagh again and instead enjoying the campaign bonuses for full reputation is the better course of action..

Oi, dat's not Orky 'nuff! Dat's da screwy fings da pointy-eared gitz would do!

So here's my proposal:

-once you reach max reputation, you get four turns to pick a target
-if you fail to pick a target, you disappoint the boyz and lose half of your reputation
-trophies are lost whenever you reach max repuation. Orks do not remember such things for long, they live in the present! Gotta' keep the boyz entertained!

Comments

  • kasunrathnatungakasunrathnatunga Registered Users Posts: 6,352
    good idea op, hope CA remembers it when they do next gs dlc
    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia
  • endurendur Registered Users Posts: 3,727
    Actually, what you are proposing is somewhat sub-optimal.

    There are hidden rewards for doing 3+ Waaagh's for Mork and Gork.
  • endurendur Registered Users Posts: 3,727
    Your third Waaagh for Mork or Gork gives you a permanent 10% WS or MS buff in addition to the Waaagh temporary bonus.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,340
    endur said:

    Actually, what you are proposing is somewhat sub-optimal.

    There are hidden rewards for doing 3+ Waaagh's for Mork and Gork.

    I'd rather have Waagh be something GS get to do regularly rather than exactly three times for yet another lame permanent global bonus.

  • BastileanBastilean Registered Users Posts: 684

    endur said:

    Actually, what you are proposing is somewhat sub-optimal.

    There are hidden rewards for doing 3+ Waaagh's for Mork and Gork.

    I'd rather have Waagh be something GS get to do regularly rather than exactly three times for yet another lame permanent global bonus.
    Nobody is stopping you from your Waaagh! Waaagh on! We don't need extra caveats.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,340
    Bastilean said:

    endur said:

    Actually, what you are proposing is somewhat sub-optimal.

    There are hidden rewards for doing 3+ Waaagh's for Mork and Gork.

    I'd rather have Waagh be something GS get to do regularly rather than exactly three times for yet another lame permanent global bonus.
    Nobody is stopping you from your Waaagh! Waaagh on! We don't need extra caveats.
    Sorry, but utterly wrong. The game encouraging me to only ever Waagh once and then never again is stopping me because why should I play the game so obviously worse to enjoy it more?

    Nope, Waagh is right now not orky 'nuff. You should never be allowed to rest on your laurels, that's what elves and dwarfs do and why they're on the verge of dying out. Greenskins live in the present.

  • LayzanLayzan Registered Users Posts: 1,018
    edited June 11

    There's currently a very big problem with the Waagh...it's fully optional and often just taking the "best" trophy of your choice and then never activating the Waagh again and instead enjoying the campaign bonuses for full reputation is the better course of action..

    Oi, dat's not Orky 'nuff! Dat's da screwy fings da pointy-eared gitz would do!

    So here's my proposal:

    -once you reach max reputation, you get four turns to pick a target
    -if you fail to pick a target, you disappoint the boyz and lose half of your reputation
    -trophies are lost whenever you reach max repuation. Orks do not remember such things for long, they live in the present! Gotta' keep the boyz entertained!

    The thing is, I don't enjoy the waaagh at all. I'd rather have the full campaign movement over the random tosh I hardly ever need or can implement in a fun way. I remove the spawned units at the start and roll with the Gork buff. If the waaagh was part of your actual force I'd be more open to the idea but not as a reinforcement. I'm just glad it's out the way now so I can actually enjoy my campaign more by setting up ambushes which I could never really do before the big change.

    And the rotting head of the dwarf lord stuck on a big stick raised high in Da cav reminds all Da boyz ouz Da best!!

    I do agree though, it's lame that their big thing is so poorly implemented that many just use it once.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,340
    edited June 11
    Layzan said:

    There's currently a very big problem with the Waagh...it's fully optional and often just taking the "best" trophy of your choice and then never activating the Waagh again and instead enjoying the campaign bonuses for full reputation is the better course of action..

    Oi, dat's not Orky 'nuff! Dat's da screwy fings da pointy-eared gitz would do!

    So here's my proposal:

    -once you reach max reputation, you get four turns to pick a target
    -if you fail to pick a target, you disappoint the boyz and lose half of your reputation
    -trophies are lost whenever you reach max repuation. Orks do not remember such things for long, they live in the present! Gotta' keep the boyz entertained!

    The thing is, I don't enjoy the waaagh at all. I'd rather have the full campaign movement over the random tosh I hardly ever need or can implement in a fun way. I remove the spawned units at the start and roll with the Gork buff. If the waaagh was part of your actual force I'd be more open to the idea but not as a reinforcement. I'm just glad it's out the way now so I can actually enjoy my campaign more by setting up ambushes which I could never really do before the big change.

    And the rotting head of the dwarf lord stuck on a big stick raised high in Da cav reminds all Da boyz ouz Da best!!

    I do agree though, it's lame that their big thing is so poorly implemented that many just use it once.
    The poorly implemented part is that it's too optional and way too rewarding to ignore it after using it exactly once. Lowering the movement speed is good and proper, having all your armies with 20 extra units move at full speed would trivialize the campaign even more and we need less of that. That the units are low tier is solved by adjusting campaign pace for once and putting an end to rampant elite spamming instead. After playing the game I also find you should only get full deployment of all units at once if CA overhauls the reinforcement mechanic as a whole and allows concurrent deployment more regularly.

    The only thing bugged is that your waagh stack can intercept/get intercepted/ambushed separately, that needs to be removed.

  • SerkeletSerkelet Member Registered Users Posts: 364

    Layzan said:

    There's currently a very big problem with the Waagh...it's fully optional and often just taking the "best" trophy of your choice and then never activating the Waagh again and instead enjoying the campaign bonuses for full reputation is the better course of action..

    Oi, dat's not Orky 'nuff! Dat's da screwy fings da pointy-eared gitz would do!

    So here's my proposal:

    -once you reach max reputation, you get four turns to pick a target
    -if you fail to pick a target, you disappoint the boyz and lose half of your reputation
    -trophies are lost whenever you reach max repuation. Orks do not remember such things for long, they live in the present! Gotta' keep the boyz entertained!

    The thing is, I don't enjoy the waaagh at all. I'd rather have the full campaign movement over the random tosh I hardly ever need or can implement in a fun way. I remove the spawned units at the start and roll with the Gork buff. If the waaagh was part of your actual force I'd be more open to the idea but not as a reinforcement. I'm just glad it's out the way now so I can actually enjoy my campaign more by setting up ambushes which I could never really do before the big change.

    And the rotting head of the dwarf lord stuck on a big stick raised high in Da cav reminds all Da boyz ouz Da best!!

    I do agree though, it's lame that their big thing is so poorly implemented that many just use it once.
    The poorly implemented part is that it's too optional and way too rewarding to ignore it after using it exactly once. Lowering the movement speed is good and proper, having all your armies with 20 extra units move at full speed would trivialize the campaign even more and we need less of that. That the units are low tier is solved by adjusting campaign pace for once and putting an end to rampant elite spamming instead. After playing the game I also find you should only get full deployment of all units at once if CA overhauls the reinforcement mechanic as a whole and allows concurrent deployment more regularly.

    The only thing bugged is that your waagh stack can intercept/get intercepted/ambushed separately, that needs to be removed.
    I don't understand. The Waagh is incredibly powerful. You get temporary free full stacks. Why is it optimal not to use it for some campaign buff? I tend to play VH or Legendary and Waaghs are like godsent at times when the AI starts throwing stacks after stacks.
  • LayzanLayzan Registered Users Posts: 1,018

    Layzan said:

    There's currently a very big problem with the Waagh...it's fully optional and often just taking the "best" trophy of your choice and then never activating the Waagh again and instead enjoying the campaign bonuses for full reputation is the better course of action..

    Oi, dat's not Orky 'nuff! Dat's da screwy fings da pointy-eared gitz would do!

    So here's my proposal:

    -once you reach max reputation, you get four turns to pick a target
    -if you fail to pick a target, you disappoint the boyz and lose half of your reputation
    -trophies are lost whenever you reach max repuation. Orks do not remember such things for long, they live in the present! Gotta' keep the boyz entertained!

    The thing is, I don't enjoy the waaagh at all. I'd rather have the full campaign movement over the random tosh I hardly ever need or can implement in a fun way. I remove the spawned units at the start and roll with the Gork buff. If the waaagh was part of your actual force I'd be more open to the idea but not as a reinforcement. I'm just glad it's out the way now so I can actually enjoy my campaign more by setting up ambushes which I could never really do before the big change.

    And the rotting head of the dwarf lord stuck on a big stick raised high in Da cav reminds all Da boyz ouz Da best!!

    I do agree though, it's lame that their big thing is so poorly implemented that many just use it once.
    The poorly implemented part is that it's too optional and way too rewarding to ignore it after using it exactly once. Lowering the movement speed is good and proper, having all your armies with 20 extra units move at full speed would trivialize the campaign even more and we need less of that. That the units are low tier is solved by adjusting campaign pace for once and putting an end to rampant elite spamming instead.

    The only thing bugged is that your waagh stack can intercept/get intercepted/ambushed separately, that needs to be removed.
    I think the whole things poorly thought out just like most of the GS faction. Grom faction is OP and the rest is meh. I don't even use the units the waaagh gives me it's so bad. I remove them to keep the extra campaign movement I need way more to deal with all the skaven OP offensive ambush multi stacks. I don't bother with any of the rewarded units either.

    And most of those trophy rewards are naff too, and I'd have to go all the way to taking god knows how long just to get something real and not something which is a massive downgrade from what I get by taking out the dwarfs. Your proposal though understandable feels more like steps back to all the babysitting/fun sapping the waaagh used to present before they wiped it clean off the board which I argued years back was so lame and so many defended it.

    I'd like the LM reward but they are often gone by the time I can get there. VC are like at plague proportion mid campaign, and the dwarf reward is way better. Empire, GS, HE etc.... yea ok na thx.

    For all the missed potential within the GS faction's lasted re-work from giants to their cav, At least the waaagh is not annoying now, and provides some perk. Your proposal removes that after so many turns. Na thx.
  • LayzanLayzan Registered Users Posts: 1,018
    Serkelet said:

    Layzan said:

    There's currently a very big problem with the Waagh...it's fully optional and often just taking the "best" trophy of your choice and then never activating the Waagh again and instead enjoying the campaign bonuses for full reputation is the better course of action..

    Oi, dat's not Orky 'nuff! Dat's da screwy fings da pointy-eared gitz would do!

    So here's my proposal:

    -once you reach max reputation, you get four turns to pick a target
    -if you fail to pick a target, you disappoint the boyz and lose half of your reputation
    -trophies are lost whenever you reach max repuation. Orks do not remember such things for long, they live in the present! Gotta' keep the boyz entertained!

    The thing is, I don't enjoy the waaagh at all. I'd rather have the full campaign movement over the random tosh I hardly ever need or can implement in a fun way. I remove the spawned units at the start and roll with the Gork buff. If the waaagh was part of your actual force I'd be more open to the idea but not as a reinforcement. I'm just glad it's out the way now so I can actually enjoy my campaign more by setting up ambushes which I could never really do before the big change.

    And the rotting head of the dwarf lord stuck on a big stick raised high in Da cav reminds all Da boyz ouz Da best!!

    I do agree though, it's lame that their big thing is so poorly implemented that many just use it once.
    The poorly implemented part is that it's too optional and way too rewarding to ignore it after using it exactly once. Lowering the movement speed is good and proper, having all your armies with 20 extra units move at full speed would trivialize the campaign even more and we need less of that. That the units are low tier is solved by adjusting campaign pace for once and putting an end to rampant elite spamming instead. After playing the game I also find you should only get full deployment of all units at once if CA overhauls the reinforcement mechanic as a whole and allows concurrent deployment more regularly.

    The only thing bugged is that your waagh stack can intercept/get intercepted/ambushed separately, that needs to be removed.
    I don't understand. The Waagh is incredibly powerful. You get temporary free full stacks. Why is it optimal not to use it for some campaign buff? I tend to play VH or Legendary and Waaghs are like godsent at times when the AI starts throwing stacks after stacks.
    For me I'd take the extra movement over the full stack of reinforcements. Yea, I can understand how having the extra stack could be handy, but for me, I just don't need it, my actual force is pretty much able to take out multi stacks with lightning strike and setting up ambushes.

    I don't have to camp at the edge of a map either and wait for the waaagh to join and then set up ZzZz. It's no real good for sieges, in fact it is just load of clutter within the unit card section often denying me of something actually useful like my second lord who is often a spell caster who helps Grimgor way more.

    You can't even tell where the waaagh reinforcement is even coming from when you have say another lord or a garrison joining too. Well thought out a...

    Fighting against Skaven, like three faction two mainly mors and eshin, where Grimgor is, that slow campaign movement is a real curse. They are the ultimate threat I feel, not the dwarfs.

    They can cut into your waaagh or your actual force with ambush on the go and get reinforcements and deny you any period. Skaven have really strong garrisons, that the slow trickle of waaagh units is practically useless as you have chunks taken off your main force, the fight will often be over before the waaagh proves any help because you have to rush the Skaven and start herding them off the map. Their towers hurt as does all the other stuff.

    When your waaagh is maxed, you get a list of maxed out campaign perks plus if you nail it right, a maxed out trophy perk. That's pretty decent esp since so much of the roster outside of Grom, is so meh... So much of the GS roster was ultimately made weaker, it's criminal how the giant has been forgotten.

    Honestly, if the reward was like for four turns I would really not even bother period.
  • FinishingLastFinishingLast Registered Users Posts: 4,340

    Bastilean said:

    endur said:

    Actually, what you are proposing is somewhat sub-optimal.

    There are hidden rewards for doing 3+ Waaagh's for Mork and Gork.

    I'd rather have Waagh be something GS get to do regularly rather than exactly three times for yet another lame permanent global bonus.
    Nobody is stopping you from your Waaagh! Waaagh on! We don't need extra caveats.
    Sorry, but utterly wrong. The game encouraging me to only ever Waagh once and then never again is stopping me because why should I play the game so obviously worse to enjoy it more?
    To enjoy it more?
    Later
  • LayzanLayzan Registered Users Posts: 1,018
    edited June 11
    I have a housemate who plays on my second PC next to mine, who uses the waaagh and sets it to a.i control on open filled battles, the battles are just a mess. It's just one big wave of blue mess that's so easy you could fall asleep to and still win. I don't find that enjoyable at all.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,340

    Bastilean said:

    endur said:

    Actually, what you are proposing is somewhat sub-optimal.

    There are hidden rewards for doing 3+ Waaagh's for Mork and Gork.

    I'd rather have Waagh be something GS get to do regularly rather than exactly three times for yet another lame permanent global bonus.
    Nobody is stopping you from your Waaagh! Waaagh on! We don't need extra caveats.
    Sorry, but utterly wrong. The game encouraging me to only ever Waagh once and then never again is stopping me because why should I play the game so obviously worse to enjoy it more?
    To enjoy it more?
    Here's the problem, I don't enjoy games I need to play badly on purpose because they fold completely if I don't. That's not how player motivation works. That's why this suggestion is nonsensical.

  • FinishingLastFinishingLast Registered Users Posts: 4,340

    Bastilean said:

    endur said:

    Actually, what you are proposing is somewhat sub-optimal.

    There are hidden rewards for doing 3+ Waaagh's for Mork and Gork.

    I'd rather have Waagh be something GS get to do regularly rather than exactly three times for yet another lame permanent global bonus.
    Nobody is stopping you from your Waaagh! Waaagh on! We don't need extra caveats.
    Sorry, but utterly wrong. The game encouraging me to only ever Waagh once and then never again is stopping me because why should I play the game so obviously worse to enjoy it more?
    To enjoy it more?
    Here's the problem, I don't enjoy games I need to play badly on purpose because they fold completely if I don't. That's not how player motivation works. That's why this suggestion is nonsensical.
    I don’t consider not constantly min/maxing as playing badly, but sure. You are saying you’d enjoy it mote if you played the game a certain way and then choose not to. It’s a choice. I keep thematic armies. It’s not the way to min/max every build to easy mode, but I choose to do it because I enjoy it more. I put my enjoyment over what a game says gives me +5 whatever.
    Later
  • LayzanLayzan Registered Users Posts: 1,018
    I really would rather they have had the waaagh add actual units from 2 perhaps up to say 8 you could pick from what starts as low trash to mid tier and perhaps at max one elite all optional from a pool of goblins and orc units wanting to join you. They join you from the get go in battle, and it would feel more like a TT GS force with the numbers and none of the headache.

    As long as you won, they stayed, levelled up, healed and could get scrap until you lost or stopped fighting. That for me would have been better. Much better.

    The trophies could have be accumulative but start less powerful giving you incentive to launch more waaaghs. Rather than lose the last perk, you could increase the bonus of each races rewards say by taking out more of the same race's main capitals over a campaign. The more powerful the race at the time of their cities fall, the more points added a bit like how you get those campaign bonuses when you ambush or march a lot.

    Also, if you lost a capital there could be a reduction to that bonus gained, or it's lost all together adding to the role play sandbox element.

  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,510
    IMO, Waagh! seems less flexible than it needs to be.

    The only way to grow the meter is fight battles, which sort of requires you to game the system by stretching out the number of battles. That's the same problem with level-grinding.

    Once you pick a target, the duration remains even if you take the target very quickly; 20 turns to take it really means 20 turns, period. If you take the target in the first turn, it doesn't end the objective. Seeing as how the rewards already scales by the power of the faction, it makes no sense.

    I think the meter should "decay" similar to the way Grudges work, once you have chosen a target. the 20 turn limit is actually the most generous deadline: in the meantime, the Waagh! stack grows, but once it reaches max it will decay unless you're fighting someone; no decay and a bonus to replenishment occurs if you fight the faction of that target.
    So what happens is that the Waagh! meter decays when there's no progress made towards the target- it is no longer optional, but a manufactured objective that has consequences for failure; for one, you've squandered an opportunity to get a trophy, and two, leads to desertion and unrest, among other things like leadership penalty for X turns.

    That requires the points system to be scaled up though, so winning 1 battle doesn't mean one point, but as high as 5.

    I think trophies, once achieved, should have a min-max effect and duration. So once you have it, for instance you gain 30% discount to recruitment cost, but after 10 turns it drops to 20%, then another 10 turns to a permanent 10%. You still get a permanent bonus, but you ought to make the most of it during the "fresh" turns.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • xomitsiousxomitsious Registered Users Posts: 56
    Serkelet said:



    I don't understand. The Waagh is incredibly powerful. You get temporary free full stacks. Why is it optimal not to use it for some campaign buff? I tend to play VH or Legendary and Waaghs are like godsent at times when the AI starts throwing stacks after stacks.

    I agree.
    In my VH Wurzzag campaign, my second Waaagh won me the game. I had two stacks with Waagh reinforcements clean up Eshin while two other stacks moved onto the Waaagh target (clan Mors capital). Wurzzag meanwhile was up north and used the extra units to clean up Zhufbar.

    When reputation filled up again, I called another Waagh immediately on TiqTaqToe's capital (he was rank 9 at the time). With the extra turns (after target was captured) I had one epic battle against the Greybeard prospectors (40 v 40 with extra dwarf units arriving afterwards since they sent 3 stacks at me. I wouldn't have had a chance withouth the Waagh reinforcements, especially that lovely feral Hydra).

    It is a really powerful option, you just have to pick your target carefully. The Mork/Gork bonus is just a little extra, but the 40 unit stacks allow you to fight wars on many fronts, and occasionallly treat you to a massive, epic battle.
  • EmrysorEmrysor Registered Users Posts: 189

    Bastilean said:

    endur said:

    Actually, what you are proposing is somewhat sub-optimal.

    There are hidden rewards for doing 3+ Waaagh's for Mork and Gork.

    I'd rather have Waagh be something GS get to do regularly rather than exactly three times for yet another lame permanent global bonus.
    Nobody is stopping you from your Waaagh! Waaagh on! We don't need extra caveats.
    Sorry, but utterly wrong. The game encouraging me to only ever Waagh once and then never again is stopping me because why should I play the game so obviously worse to enjoy it more?
    To enjoy it more?
    Here's the problem, I don't enjoy games I need to play badly on purpose because they fold completely if I don't. That's not how player motivation works. That's why this suggestion is nonsensical.
    I used to play World of Warcraft and you seem to be like the guys who would sim every item to see what was better. This went up to a point you had to pay a third party to do the math calculation for you, unless you had lots of spare time to check every item available. I get it most of the people who type here including me probably know more about this game than the rest 80 % that plays this game. Maybe the design philosophy behind the waagh was targeted for people who doesn't know everything about the game. Your vision of playing badly can be playing different for someone else. Not everything about this game is about min/maxing.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 26,340
    Emrysor said:

    Bastilean said:

    endur said:

    Actually, what you are proposing is somewhat sub-optimal.

    There are hidden rewards for doing 3+ Waaagh's for Mork and Gork.

    I'd rather have Waagh be something GS get to do regularly rather than exactly three times for yet another lame permanent global bonus.
    Nobody is stopping you from your Waaagh! Waaagh on! We don't need extra caveats.
    Sorry, but utterly wrong. The game encouraging me to only ever Waagh once and then never again is stopping me because why should I play the game so obviously worse to enjoy it more?
    To enjoy it more?
    Here's the problem, I don't enjoy games I need to play badly on purpose because they fold completely if I don't. That's not how player motivation works. That's why this suggestion is nonsensical.
    I used to play World of Warcraft and you seem to be like the guys who would sim every item to see what was better. This went up to a point you had to pay a third party to do the math calculation for you, unless you had lots of spare time to check every item available. I get it most of the people who type here including me probably know more about this game than the rest 80 % that plays this game. Maybe the design philosophy behind the waagh was targeted for people who doesn't know everything about the game. Your vision of playing badly can be playing different for someone else. Not everything about this game is about min/maxing.
    I don't need a "sim" to see what option is superior. CA made that choice already for me. Like with a lot of things in this game.

    That's the problem.

  • Darthplagueis13Darthplagueis13 Registered Users Posts: 171
    I think it would be easier to just limit the duration of a waaagh trophy. Say 10 turns for Da Big Trophy, 15 for Da Bigga Trophy and 20 turns for Da Biggest Trophy.

    It would mean that players can't hold onto their trophies forever and thus aren't discouraged from starting a new waaagh against a different target for basically the rest of the campaign once they've got what they want.

    I also feel like you shouldn't get into negative reputation when your waaagh succeeds, even if it's a smaller target. That should only happen when you fail your waaagh.
  • LayzanLayzan Registered Users Posts: 1,018

    I think it would be easier to just limit the duration of a waaagh trophy. Say 10 turns for Da Big Trophy, 15 for Da Bigga Trophy and 20 turns for Da Biggest Trophy.

    It would mean that players can't hold onto their trophies forever and thus aren't discouraged from starting a new waaagh against a different target for basically the rest of the campaign once they've got what they want.

    I also feel like you shouldn't get into negative reputation when your waaagh succeeds, even if it's a smaller target. That should only happen when you fail your waaagh.

    I think the waaagh indicator stops before the negative effects if you succeed.

    And honestly if the reward only lasted a window of turns, I think I'd forget even bothering taking the objective period and the waaagh army that slows you down. Most of those rewards are rubbish I'm not interested in anyway. Oh wow, I get plus 8 replenishment and some growth for 15 turns for taking out a top rank skaven homebase and starting a war with them WAYHEY!!!
  • LayzanLayzan Registered Users Posts: 1,018
    edited June 11
    As the greenskins take over the world razing/taking over factions capitals and all that faction once had, their waaagh power should grow, not diminish....

    This would only happen if they hit a road bump, or started to loose battles, or lost momentum as in a period of non fighting.
  • JastalllJastalll Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,162
    Just give you the choice to discard your trophy or not. I hesitated to use WAAAGH in my Grom campaign simply because giving up +6 Lord recruit rank, +4 unit recruit rank, and +15 factionwide physical resist was something I'd only do in an emergency. I'd have WAAAGHED like there was no tomorrow had I been able to keep it.

    That was in Vortex however, where most campaigns are on the easier side. In ME I don't think any trophy is worth sitting on effectively doubling your unit count, even if not unit quality. Not when literally everyone has a bone to pick with you when you play Greenskins.
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