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Druchii Are the Most Evil Race of the WHFB Setting

ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 27,209
I consider them to be so simply because their entire evil, their bloodlust, sadism, slavery and social darwinism is wholly out of free choice, born from the "ideals" of their supreme leader Malekith, who created their society out of petty envy and lust for power. They were not born that way like Skaven, Greenskins or Beastmen and they were not manipulated by gods like the Warriors of Chaos and the Chaos Dwarfs and Vampire Counts do not engage in as much large-scale, pointless sadism for the sheer sake of it as the Druchii. Even the Chaos Gods themselves could be considered victims of circumstance since they've been fed by negative emotions and only ever grown worse due to the ensuing feedback loop.

What's your opinion?

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Comments

  • OdTengriOdTengri Registered Users Posts: 4,259
    Technically the Dark Elves are actually chaos corrupted elves. Its just worked subtly by exacerbating the negative traits found in all elves.
    Give us Doombull, Great Bray-Shaman, Wargor, and Tuskgor Chariot.

  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 27,209
    OdTengri said:

    Technically the Dark Elves are actually chaos corrupted elves. Its just worked subtly by exacerbating the negative traits found in all elves.

    Nah, that's just Morathi's shtick (and she even lost that in End Times). The cult of Khaine is much stronger and that god's all-elf.

  • BiesBies Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,494
    Morathi had huge impact on that society, I would say even most crucial role in creation of druchii
    So not only Malekith

    "I shivered at the sight of her - her beauty far beyond that of mortal man. But her soul glowed with an inner darkness that chilled my very core."









  • Icebern12Icebern12 Registered Users Posts: 169
    In other news the sky is blue.
  • WarlockeWarlocke Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,926
    Interesting question. I suppose it is how you want to look at. Orcs and Skaven temperaments are the result of the inherent natures, but Dark Elves are a product of their society, which leaves them emotionally stunted. I am not sure which of those circumstances I would label as more evil. Individuals in all of these societies have little choice in whom they become and how they develop but for different reasons.
    ò_ó
  • ArsenicArsenic Registered Users Posts: 6,016
    OdTengri said:

    Technically the Dark Elves are actually chaos corrupted elves. Its just worked subtly by exacerbating the negative traits found in all elves.

    I think the High Elves armybook indicated that their pride turning to arrogance, the Asrai's isolationiasm turning into xenophobia, and the Druchii's bitterness turning to sadism were the result of Chaos influencing their minds in a way it can't do their bodies.


    But anyway, yeah, they're probably the most evil, due to them taking delight in cruelty and inflicting pain for no reason than it being fun to do.

    "Ours is a world of fleeting glory. But it is glory, nonetheless."
  • TemudhunTemudhun Member Registered Users Posts: 176
    I'd say they are not necessarily the most evil, but the most needlessly cartoonishly evil. Their entire society doesn't make sense, they are hedonists who left the comfort of Ulthuan for the harsh wastelands of Naggaroth, treacherous **** without loyalty who followed an abusive leader because he was deemed more legitimate, cunning sadists who prefered a society in which they are at a constant risk of being preyed upon by a more powerful rival rather than one in which they could hunt their preys from behind a mask of innocence while being relatively safe. It would be okay if they were a handful even by elf standard, but it seems Ulthuan and Naggaroth seem to be on an equal footing. How this society doesn't crumble upon itself I will never understand. Chaos, Undead and even Greenskin are more nuanced and believable.
  • XxXScorpionXxXXxXScorpionXxX Registered Users Posts: 1,777
    What about Chaos Dwarfs? They're pretty sadistic as well if I remember right. Both have innate immunity to Chaos corruption but willingly surrender themselves to it.

    Also I wouldn't really consider GS "evil" at least not Orcs, maybe Goblins but Orcs are too pure in there battle thirst to have the capacity for moral philosophies.
    Request scorched body textures, poisoned dying animations for infantry's skeletons, a blood slider that allows us to control how much blood appears in battle and make proper death animations for all ethereal units so they vanish for Blood for the Blood God 3.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 27,209

    What about Chaos Dwarfs? They're pretty sadistic as well if I remember right. Both have innate immunity to Chaos corruption but willingly surrender themselves to it.

    Also I wouldn't really consider GS "evil" at least not Orcs, maybe Goblins but Orcs are too pure in there battle thirst to have the capacity for moral philosophies.

    Chaos Dwarfs aren't as sadistic as the Dark Elves since when they enslave people it's mainly for "practical" reasons to have cheap labor for their forges and mines, not to pointlessly torture them. They also generally don't partake in as much decadent debauchery.

  • GrayserGrayser Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 314
    They are probably the most brutal and sadistic race in the setting.

    Why they turned out this way is a a long lore based story which differs from edition to edition but I think Gav Thorpe is it? who designed and wrote the 8th edition army book put it best.

    When the Dark elves landed in Naggaroth there were no stonemasons, carpenters, skilled or un-skilled laborers amongst them. They were all dispossed warriors from Nagarythe so while they enjoy tormenting lesser creatures(everyone) its not an end in and of itself.

    They need slaves to build their cities, mine the ore and build the ships and so on and so forth.

    Would you think twice about killing a fly buzzing around you? the natural arrogance of the Elves is amplified with the Dark elves so everyone even other Dark elves are desvering of what they get if they are stupid enough to fail.

    This is highly encouraged by Malekith who more or less allows Naggarond to be a constant warzone to weed out the weak, in a way the Dark elves represent the ultimate meritocracy pushed to the extreme.
  • KillTheWorldKillTheWorld Registered Users Posts: 423
    Evil is a myth. The Dark Elves can no more choose to be sadistic than the wind can choose to blow. Everything is caused by the immediately preceeding set of circumstances, no part of an elf is free to violate the laws of causality.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 27,209
    subsphinx said:

    Evil is a myth. The Dark Elves can no more choose to be sadistic than the wind can choose to blow. Everything is caused by the immediately preceeding set of circumstances, no part of an elf is free to violate the laws of causality.



  • JastalllJastalll Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,176
    It's pretty hard to argue otherwise. The Skaven are also extremely cruel and underhanded but are made that way and their god directly pushes them down this road. Greenskins are quite brutal but can form bonds of genuine affection, for example I recall that Skarsnik got depressed and wandered off after Gobbla was killed in the End Times. Chaos is, well, lolchaos and probably second in place for evilness purely due to the fact that said gods want to blow up the world and the vast majority of Chaos worshippers just want to murder everything in sight, regardless of what god their follow or what their actual long-term goals are it all comes to making them murderhobos anyway.

    Possibly the biggest indictment of DEs is that two other races of Elves exist that aren't (as much) of a band of psychopathic douches. OK, you could say the Asur have it fairly easy, but the Asrai don't and while they are quite ruthless, they don't encourage their own citizens to murder each other or toss babies in boiling blood to raise the survivors as near mindless assassins. There's necessary evil to protect oneself and destroy your enemies, and then there's purely gratuitous and self-defeating cruelty for its mere sake, and the DEs are far too eager to embrace that.
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,376
    Icebern12 said:

    In other news the sky is blue.

    Lol this man knows what's up.
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,376

    What about Chaos Dwarfs? They're pretty sadistic as well if I remember right. Both have innate immunity to Chaos corruption but willingly surrender themselves to it.

    Also I wouldn't really consider GS "evil" at least not Orcs, maybe Goblins but Orcs are too pure in there battle thirst to have the capacity for moral philosophies.

    Chaos Dwarfs aren't as sadistic as the Dark Elves since when they enslave people it's mainly for "practical" reasons to have cheap labor for their forges and mines, not to pointlessly torture them. They also generally don't partake in as much decadent debauchery.
    Also their ties to Chaos were born out of the necessity to survive. I don't think they particularly like Chaos either, but they are bound to it. They cut a deal during the Great Catastrophe since they became isolated from their dawi brethren and on the brink of extinction.
  • SchwarzhelmSchwarzhelm Registered Users Posts: 1,447

    What about Chaos Dwarfs? They're pretty sadistic as well if I remember right. Both have innate immunity to Chaos corruption but willingly surrender themselves to it.

    Also I wouldn't really consider GS "evil" at least not Orcs, maybe Goblins but Orcs are too pure in there battle thirst to have the capacity for moral philosophies.

    Chaos Dwarfs aren't as sadistic as the Dark Elves since when they enslave people it's mainly for "practical" reasons to have cheap labor for their forges and mines, not to pointlessly torture them. They also generally don't partake in as much decadent debauchery.
    Also their ties to Chaos were born out of the necessity to survive. I don't think they particularly like Chaos either, but they are bound to it. They cut a deal during the Great Catastrophe since they became isolated from their dawi brethren and on the brink of extinction.
    IIRC the CD still honor family and comradeship (regarding other chaos dwarfs) like their none corrupted cousins.
    This loyalty alone sets them miles above the back-stabbing DE.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,083

    I consider them to be so simply because their entire evil, their bloodlust, sadism, slavery and social darwinism is wholly out of free choice, born from the "ideals" of their supreme leader Malekith, who created their society out of petty envy and lust for power. They were not born that way like Skaven, Greenskins or Beastmen and they were not manipulated by gods like the Warriors of Chaos and the Chaos Dwarfs and Vampire Counts do not engage in as much large-scale, pointless sadism for the sheer sake of it as the Druchii. Even the Chaos Gods themselves could be considered victims of circumstance since they've been fed by negative emotions and only ever grown worse due to the ensuing feedback loop.

    What's your opinion?

    It's a 'Evil Versus Oblivion' situation in case of Dark Elves Versus Warriors of Chaos, I consider Warriors of Chaos more destructive, the Dark Elves want to Control the World, the Warriors of Chaos want to Destroy the World, also the Dark Elves are no much different than the Chaos Dwarfs. All Races who was part of the Great Plan was Corrupted by Chaos, the Ruinous Powers are the Greater Scope Villains who made the Elves lose their compassion to 'Lesser Races' and made the Dwarfs greedy.

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilVersusOblivion
  • SubjectEighteenSubjectEighteen Registered Users Posts: 540
    In my opinion, not that it matters, I think the Druchii are the worst designed race in Warhammer Fantasy. They're cartoonishly evil, to the point that I cant take them seriously. They dont even feel like they belong to me. Nothing about them makes any sense and they aren't even remotely interesting to me because of their over the top edge.

    I would agree that they are the most evil, because they do what they do for fun. Or because they feel slighted. It's an entire civilization built on emo/goth culture and cranked up to 100. No thanks.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,083

    What about Chaos Dwarfs? They're pretty sadistic as well if I remember right. Both have innate immunity to Chaos corruption but willingly surrender themselves to it.

    Also I wouldn't really consider GS "evil" at least not Orcs, maybe Goblins but Orcs are too pure in there battle thirst to have the capacity for moral philosophies.

    Chaos Dwarfs aren't as sadistic as the Dark Elves since when they enslave people it's mainly for "practical" reasons to have cheap labor for their forges and mines, not to pointlessly torture them. They also generally don't partake in as much decadent debauchery.
    On the other hand the Chaos Dwarfs are siding with Eldritch Abominations more often.
  • Ancalagon74Ancalagon74 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 219
    subsphinx said:

    Evil is a myth. The Dark Elves can no more choose to be sadistic than the wind can choose to blow. Everything is caused by the immediately preceeding set of circumstances, no part of an elf is free to violate the laws of causality.

    As my old professor used to say, “self referentially incoherent”.
  • CrajohCrajoh Member Registered Users Posts: 1,931
    Yea but what is evil. If you are a higher life form is it evil to:
    A. Squash and poison ants
    B. Rip the wings of fly
    C. Imprison birds
    D. Kill and eat cattle ( which is also what vampires call humans)
    E. Hunt animals to make perfume.

    Maybes that’s how DE see the other races.
    Live your life and try to do no harm.

    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Evelyn Beatrice Hall
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 8,169
    edited June 14
    It's actually explicitly stated in the 4E Dark Elf book, when GW was less obsessed with grimdark, in pretty much the same terms - other races have the excuse that they're doing it because it's part of their nature or because the Chaos Gods will punish them if they don't, while the Dark Elves behave the way they do entirely because (as a group) they choose to.

    8E muddied the waters with the whole "Chaos amplified the arrogance of all Elves while suppressing their compassion" thing, but there are multiple ways that can manifest, and the Dark Elves went down the path of sadism. About the only excuse they can make is that the lingering effects of the Sword of Khaine made them do it - but the Shadow Warriors have the same lingering effects, and while they're more ruthless than other Asur, they're not on the level of the Druchii when it comes to cruelty.

    (It is worth noting on the Dark Elf/Chaos Dwarf comparison, though, that the Dark Elves did initially become slavers for practical reasons, and not every slave the Chaos Dwarfs take is put to work...)
    Crajoh said:

    Yea but what is evil. If you are a higher life form is it evil to:
    A. Squash and poison ants
    B. Rip the wings of fly
    C. Imprison birds
    D. Kill and eat cattle ( which is also what vampires call humans)
    E. Hunt animals to make perfume.

    Maybes that’s how DE see the other races.

    A lot of people would say that B is due to being needless cruelty. If the fly is a problem you give it a quick death, if it's not you leave it alone. Ripping the wings off is taking extra time and effort being cruel for your own amusement.

    (That said, it is pretty much how the Dark Elves see other races. One of the things I found particularly chilling in the 6E book was that how the padding beneath their mail was typically made of a soft leather "like human or doeskin". It was particularly impactful precisely since it wasn't presented in a 'look how evil we are, muahaha' sense or as something they do for intimidation, but in a matter-of-fact sense that showed that to the Druchii, making garments out of human skin was no different to making them out of deer hide.)
  • MooncakeMooncake Registered Users Posts: 607
    Dark Elves are NOT Chaos Elves. That is just the wanky headcanon of some GW writer who never got to put pen to paper, thank god.
  • ArsenicArsenic Registered Users Posts: 6,016
    Crajoh said:

    Yea but what is evil. If you are a higher life form is it evil to:
    A. Squash and poison ants
    B. Rip the wings of fly
    C. Imprison birds
    D. Kill and eat cattle ( which is also what vampires call humans)
    E. Hunt animals to make perfume.

    Maybes that’s how DE see the other races.


    I think what you're missing there is the Druchii take active pleasure in the torment they cause.

    People who keep songbirds genuinely care for them, and usually don't realise that what they're doing is imprisoning it. Like people who enjoy zoos and circuses, the worst you can say about them is that they're unenlightened, they don't mean any harm to the birds/animals by it.

    Meat eaters go to great lengths to hide from themselves where that meat comes from, and are usually horrified by footage from abattoirs.

    The Druchii would keep the songbird/animals imprisoned because they like the idea of imprisoning it, and would watch the abattoir footage with relish.

    Plus there's the fact that they treat each other no better, and enjoy those same acts of cruelty committed against their own.

    It's that which separates them from societies like Sparta, and concepts like social Darwinism which were/are ruthless but have no love of cruelty for it's own sake.
    "Ours is a world of fleeting glory. But it is glory, nonetheless."
  • brago90brago90 Registered Users Posts: 588
    The Dark elves are victims of circumstances, they are a society born of treason (they were the ones betrayed), imposed their existence in a land that has no desire to harbor life, many people clung to fanaticism and revenge because it is what the only one left to go on. If you are in hell you keep walking.

    In the end the only thing that could keep them going was hatred, united by hatred they persevered, endured and prospered. A cold and lethal nation like the lands on which they live, being weak is not a luxury they can afford. Being weak is death.

    Their society is hell, a hell they continue to walk through whit the hope of recovering what was taken from them. When that time comes it will be time to evaluate whether or not the cost was excessive.
  • DraxynnicDraxynnic Registered Users Posts: 8,169
    Mooncake said:

    Dark Elves are NOT Chaos Elves. That is just the wanky headcanon of some GW writer who never got to put pen to paper, thank god.

    Actually, they pretty much were in earlier editions. Go back far enough, and Khaine was explicitly another name for Khorne, and the Dark Elves were basically split between Khorne and Slaanesh. Khaine split off fairly early, but the Cults of Pleasure didn't stop being about Slaanesh until 7E, and even then there are question marks over just how separate Atharti is from Slaanesh really (why does the Thirst exist in 8E Fantasy again, hrrrmn?).
    brago90 said:

    The Dark elves are victims of circumstances, they are a society born of treason (they were the ones betrayed),

    No, they weren't.

    There was no established precedent for the Phoenix Kingship to be hereditary... or even to be continued at all after Aenarion's death. When the war came, it was the Druchii who attacked everyone else.

    If the Sundering had been caused by Nagarythe declaring independence from the Phoenix Throne and Bel Shanarr declaring war on it, then they'd have a leg to stand on. But the only thing to blame for what happened to them is their own ambition. They betrayed the other Elves, not the other way around.
  • WarlockeWarlocke Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,926
    subsphinx said:

    Evil is a myth. The Dark Elves can no more choose to be sadistic than the wind can choose to blow. Everything is caused by the immediately preceeding set of circumstances, no part of an elf is free to violate the laws of causality.

    What?
    ò_ó
  • trueshot211trueshot211 Registered Users Posts: 129
    edited June 14
    Were the dark elves inspired by Drow from AD&D and the Forgotten Realms?

    I'd always assumed so but was never quite sure. In D&D drow elves are also maniacally evil with malice being embedded into their society, though they are not as cartoonish because the literature is more fleshed out. The literature on drow elves is obviously not quite as hyperbolic as Warhammer so their society- with backstabbing and malice being innate and their modus operandi- feels more believable to the reader.
  • WarlockeWarlocke Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,926
    edited June 14

    Were the dark elves inspired by Drow from AD&D and the Forgotten Realms?

    I'd always assumed so but was never quite sure. In D&D drow elves are also maniacally evil with malice being embedded into their society, though they are not as cartoonish because the literature is more fleshed out. The literature on drow elves is obviously not quite as hyperbolic as Warhammer so their society- with backstabbing and malice being innate and their modus operandi- feels more believable to the reader.

    While the drow had existed in D&D before, their society was never fleshed out until the first Drizzt book in 1990. Prior to that their only real lore was that they were evil elves who lived underground. I’m not sure when Dark Elves were added to WHFB as a playable faction but I’m pretty sure that they existed in the lore in the 80s. I’m not certain, though.

    Either way, the biggest inspiration for the Dark Elves are probably Michael Moorcock’s Melniboneans. They were powerful and callous sorcerers and while never called elves in the books, they are usually depicted as such.



    Michael Moorcock was very close with Games Workshop when they first started. They even made miniatures of his characters. Lots of WHFB lore comes from him, especially regarding Chaos.
    ò_ó
  • Grom_the_PaunchGrom_the_Paunch Registered Users Posts: 2,071
    Is "be evil or die" a fair choice? I mean, the Dark Elves that were at all squeamish are no doubt buried if they're lucky.
    Then, throw in some fighting to survive every day and inevitable daddy issues in a cold murderous society.
    What is an angst-y edgelord to do in the face of such reckless peer pressure?

    Evil? Probably...
    If that smile isn't plastered to their faces like an old-fashioned quiz-show host.
    If their eye doesn't twitch erratically every time they wash their hands.
    If they don't giggle maniacally because they just remembered one of the worst days of their miserable, terrifying and paranoid existence...

    Wait... am I evil?
    Make Hobgoblins Great Again!

    As always, if in doubt, assume I tried to be funny and failed. We'll both be happier. I promise. <3
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