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WH3 DLC - Oxyotl the Unseen

Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,376
Hello ladies and gentlemen, filthy Chaos mutants, and a particular plain ape that I occasionally like to steal this kind of introduction from.

There's been a lot of talk about Cathay and Game III factions and races and all that jazz, and it got me thinking about the factions, lords, and legendary characters that could fill out the areas of the Far East outside of Imperial Cathay (I'm also working on gathering absolutely everything I can find about Cathay, but there's a lot of information to go through). Given my partiality to Lizardmen, the first that came to mind was, of course, Oxoytl. So hold onto your butts, we're about to take a journey to the warp itself and then back to the Chaos-infested jungles of the Hinterlands of Kuresh.

Oxyotl - He That Hunts Unseen


He gonna getchu.


This here not-too-pretty-looking fella is Oxyotl, the most badass of all Chameleon Skinks. Spawned before the Great Catastrophe in the temple-city of Pahaux (the only place where Chameleon Skinks spawned), Oxyotl was already legendary among the Lizardmen before Daemons surged into the world. Oxyotl and the other inhabitants of Pahaux battled Chaos for hundreds of years until the magical shields protecting the temple-city collapsed. He and his Chameleon Skinks defended the Slaan Mage-Priest Pocaxalan who was planning go full kamikaze á la Lord Kroak but some Tzeentch trickery made the spell go awry and the center of the city was teleported into the realm of Chaos while the rest disintegrated to ash.


The name sound familiar? The Terradon Riders RoR, the Pahaux Sentinals, have this city as their namesake. It is now known as the City of Ash and the scars from battle still mark the city as a barren wasteland.


Within seconds the Daemons were upon the defenders, and all were shortly ripped to shreds. But not Oxyotl. Armed with only a blowpipe and unparalleled concealment skills, he wandered the Realm of Chaos for seven-ish thousand years (although time works differently so it didn't seem that long to him), terrorizing the local Daemon populations and developing absurdly strong and deadly poisons from materials he found. Which, to quote 1d4chan, means he "makes poisons strong enough to kill Great Unclean Ones out of literally nothing." Badass.

Basically he's like the Kaldor Drago of Warhammer Fantasy. Except less crazy. And he's just a Skink with a blowpipe instead of a genetically-engineered, uncorruptable super-soldier.

Oxyotl eventually wandered his way out of the Realm of Chaos, something never before achieved save by the servants of the Dark Powers themselves, stumbling across the Lost Temple of the Old Ones in the process, also something that had never been done before (we'll get the that more later). How Oxyotl managed to escape without mutation, death, or being driven to insanity remains a mystery, as Oxyotl himself dares not recount it and even the Mage-Priests refuse to explore his mind for fear of being plunged into madness.

As far as Total War goes, Oxyotl is actually a hero in the table top, but other TT heros, such as Gor-Rok and Tiktaq'to, are now lords in the game. He would have Stalk, Snipe, a 360 firing arc, and Fire While Moving along with his unique item the Golden Blowpipe of P’Toohee (onmygosh GW why) that grants him different blowpipe attacks, a single-missile shot and burst fire, along with different ammunition types with various effects to represent the plethora of different poisons in his arsenal. CA would probably add a couple abilities as well to flesh him out a bit more and make him more useful.

Start Position


There it is. In the red circle. (The image is a bit blurry, sorry.)


I mentioned earlier that Oxyotl is the only known individual to have visited the Lost Temple of the Old Ones, like a temple-city lost at the onset of the Great Catastrophe. As such, he would be the only individual to know where it is located. It just so happens that a Lizardmen expedition to the temple would place him in the Hinterlands of Khuresh, south of Imperial Cathay, directly east of Ind, and close to the Southern Chaos Wastes. Early enemies would include the High Elves who maintain open trade routes with Cathay, Daemons from the wastes, Beastmen from the jungles, and Cathay itself. It would also save CA the hassle of fleshing out the Naga if they didn't want to do so, since Oxyotl would be the dominant force in the area.

New Units and Lords

Now this is where things get a bit tricky. The only missing units from the 8th Edition army book are Jungle Swarms and the Troglodon. Aside from that, CA would have to start getting a bit more creative with the unit, hero, and lord choices. The Troglodon with the Skink Oracle could be implemented as a lord, hero, or unit option (Yes, lord or hero as well. It wouldn't be the first time CA has turned a unit into a hero or lord character, so get over it). It could have a missile attack in the vein of either a breath attack or standard missile attack, a couple bound spells to represent their connection with the Slann, and a Roar that would give nearby allies additional leadership and melee attack. The other character options would be a Kroxigor here, being basically the same as the lord variant but less powerful.

As far as units go it's all pretty much whatever could be improved upon or made into variants unless more Forge World units and fluff units are used. The Coatl, Thunder Lizard, and Arcanadon are all massive monsters. Since it's also Oxyotl, maybe a new, more elite variants of Chameleon Skinks with either AP values or snipe... or maybe both. Revered Guardins, elite Temple Guard, would also be a new unit option, packing a set of hero-level stats with a small unit size, the Guardian trait, and being absolute beasts overall. Other than that, yeah I'm kinda out of ideas.

Anyway, thoughts? The start position is assuming the Far East is included, of course.

Comments

  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 14,359
    Yes please! Really hoping for Oxyboy in WH3.
  • WyvaxWyvax Registered Users Posts: 3,475
    I always figured that the remaining units for LM could go something like this. Standard units: Troglodon, Coat, Arcanodon. Hero: Skink Oracle. Generic Lord: Ancient Coatl (they're intelligent creatures worshipped by the skinks after all, maybe they could only be summoned via a rite of Primeval Glory). The issue is that these units all have a magic theme too them, which aligns them more towards Tetto'ekko, but Oxyotl is the LM to pit against Daemons of Chaos. Hopefully we get both LLs eventually.
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  • TheWattmanTheWattman Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 305
    Solid option for the Lizardmen. Either this or swap location for the Dragon Islands, while he starts in Pahuax on ME, that way no need for the Far East to be implemented. This is my dream version for the Lizardmen. One more lord and the last of the Dinosaurs, but maybe not the Thunder Lizard, that's a bit overkill.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 14,359

    Solid option for the Lizardmen. Either this or swap location for the Dragon Islands, while he starts in Pahuax on ME, that way no need for the Far East to be implemented. This is my dream version for the Lizardmen. One more lord and the last of the Dinosaurs, but maybe not the Thunder Lizard, that's a bit overkill.

    Oxyotl could also start in the Chaos Wastes. Would be quite unique as a start position.
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,376
    Wyvax said:

    I always figured that the remaining units for LM could go something like this. Standard units: Troglodon, Coat, Arcanodon. Hero: Skink Oracle. Generic Lord: Ancient Coatl (they're intelligent creatures worshipped by the skinks after all, maybe they could only be summoned via a rite of Primeval Glory). The issue is that these units all have a magic theme too them, which aligns them more towards Tetto'ekko, but Oxyotl is the LM to pit against Daemons of Chaos. Hopefully we get both LLs eventually.

    That is true. That's why I was thinking that we could maybe get a Chameleon Skink variant or Revered Guardians as well.

    I also forgot to mention that Eternity Wardens could be added as heroes as well. Hopefully maybe we could get them and Revered Guardians if we get Chakax?

  • RikRiorikRikRiorik Registered Users Posts: 9,436
    I'd buy that for a dollar.

    I'm generally fed up with TWW2 races but for Oxyotl, Thrott, Thanquol, Nagash and Apophas I can make an exception.
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  • davedave1124davedave1124 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 10,670
    Throw the Thunder Lizard in there..
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,376

    Throw the Thunder Lizard in there..

    I did...
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 14,359
    I would also like to see Culchan Riders for another LM LP.
  • IndefatigableIndefatigable Registered Users Posts: 35
    Hmmm... he would struggle to conceal himself when the Lumbrians clear all of the trees he likes to hide in. I suspect that he wouldn't last very long in game 3 accordingly!
  • Lord_DistamorfinLord_Distamorfin Registered Users Posts: 1,213
    I'd say that a Lizardmen lord pack would come with:
    - Troglodon with Skink Oracle rider
    - Coatl
    - Great Crested Skinks on Cold Ones/Horned Ones

    Anything else would be pulling from extremely old and non-canon materials (Troglodytes), unit variants or something CA would have to invent entirely. I'd certainly love to see the Arcanodon fully realized, but the Engine of the Gods is already on the Stegadon and I'd rather get the Coatl as the centerpiece unit.

    To the point of the Skink Oracle being a character, yes CA has elevated units to lord/hero status in the past, but what would the Oracle even do as a hero? Oracles pretty much only exist to tame Troglodons. They're not wizards (although the Slann can see through their eyes and cast their magic through them like a Skink Priest), and they aren't warriors like the Saurus Scar-Veterans of Skink Chiefs. I suppose a support role could be invented for them, but then that's just CA making things up again. I'd rather see it as just a unit with a rider, like a single entity cavalry unit.
  • CelsiusCelsius Registered Users Posts: 8
    Another Potential Unit is the Culchan/Culchan Riders. Culchans are flightless carnivorous birds and both skinks and Amazons ride. While they are pretty old (from 2nd edition), the 8th Lizardmen Armybook has mentions of them stating that the skinks from the Temple City Oyxl are particular skilled in riding them.

    I could see them as fast, anti-infantry light cavalry compared to the stronger, anti-large cold-one riders.
  • ZelnikZelnik Registered Users Posts: 492
    First: He would not be placed in the east because Cathay and Ind will never be in the game.

    Stop trying to weasel it in you troglodytes.

    Secondly: There are other LM units missing, specifically the Cotl. As much as I desperately want Oxyotl, we are more likely to get Tetto'ekko as a LL. Which I am Ok with because giant comets are awesome.
  • IamNotArobotIamNotArobot Registered Users Posts: 2,451
    I like it, make him start in chaos wastes or demon lands and we got a deal.

    actually if not, we got a deal anyways :)
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  • MagicspookMagicspook Registered Users Posts: 585
    I wonder how skinks use their blowpipes, seeing as they don't seem to have working lips...
  • starcreator1012starcreator1012 Registered Users Posts: 214
    wow this is really well done
    good job
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,376


    To the point of the Skink Oracle being a character, yes CA has elevated units to lord/hero status in the past, but what would the Oracle even do as a hero? Oracles pretty much only exist to tame Troglodons. They're not wizards (although the Slann can see through their eyes and cast their magic through them like a Skink Priest), and they aren't warriors like the Saurus Scar-Veterans of Skink Chiefs. I suppose a support role could be invented for them, but then that's just CA making things up again. I'd rather see it as just a unit with a rider, like a single entity cavalry unit.

    Skink Oracles on Troglodons are support characters. They use their poison spit, bound spells, and Roar ability (which provided a buff to allies in the TT) to increase units' effectiveness and turn the battle.
    As far as what they do goes, they don't exist the tame Troglodons. They're the only ones that can do so, but the are the eyes and ears of the Slann, oracles of Sotek, and their real purpose is to recover lost plaques and artifacts.
    So making them a lord, hero, or unit all makes sense in terms of the purpose they served on the TT and in terms of the lore they have. It's not unlikely that they would lead an army to go recover plaques (like a lord) or wander off by themselves to go find one and then join an army to recover it (like a hero or unit). Both work. And assuming we'll get all the Lizardmen LLs, Chakax, Tetto'eko, and Oxyotl, there's gotta be at least two more lord packs for them and there's only one hero/lord character left.
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,376
    Zelnik said:

    First: He would not be placed in the east because Cathay and Ind will never be in the game.

    Stop trying to weasel it in you troglodytes.

    Secondly: There are other LM units missing, specifically the Cotl. As much as I desperately want Oxyotl, we are more likely to get Tetto'ekko as a LL. Which I am Ok with because giant comets are awesome.

    Welp, Cathay might make it in, and it might not. I don't suppose you have confirmation from CA on the matter, so for the time being I'm going to assume it is still an option.

    And I included the Coatl. Please read the entire post if you bother to say I missed something.

    In regards to Tetto'eko or Oxyotl, porque no los dos?
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 14,359
    Zelnik said:

    First: He would not be placed in the east because Cathay and Ind will never be in the game.

    Stop trying to weasel it in you troglodytes.

    Secondly: There are other LM units missing, specifically the Cotl. As much as I desperately want Oxyotl, we are more likely to get Tetto'ekko as a LL. Which I am Ok with because giant comets are awesome.

    Maybe not as their own races but the chance for the Far East being represented on the map is pretty good.

    CA said they know what we want for the Campaign map and the majority wants the full WH World.

    Keep in mind that we also have Araby on the map without Araby as a Race. Same can easily happen with Khuresh, Nippon and Ind.
  • MiniaArMiniaAr Registered Users Posts: 654
    Well as said before, there is potential for additional Lizardmen units, but one has to go "deep into the lore" and not rely only on army books.

    But it's possible and would look good in my opinion:

    LL: Oxyotl
    Hero: Coatl -> Greenskins got the Toll Hag which had similar foundations in the lore. Coatl I think could be a lord choice but not general in the TT. In TWWH this would likely translate in a wizard hero choice. They had Life, Light and Heavens as magic lore. I see them more having a mix of the three, like Mazdamundi than the full three lores. Also, we already have Heavens skink priests.

    Units:
    Troglodon -> the only real missing unit from the army book. I see them more as a Unit with bound abilities and yes they should have a skink oracle on their back. Alternatively, skink Oracle could be the hero choice and the Coatl the monster with bound spells. This would open the possibility of a "Feral Troglodon" as a unit. But I do not really like this idea.

    Culchan Riders -> This is the "dig deep into the lore" part, but from official sources:
    - Lizardmen 7th edition, p33/8th edition p24:
    Further south still, where the jungle gives way to the Culchan Plains, is to be found Oyxl, the Eternal City. Though ruined, the city's Great Pyramid is still attended by Skink Priests. Many of the Sking fighters who guard them have mastered the carnivorous, flightless birds that roam the plains, patrolling far from the city upon their unusual mounts".


    I would argue that this is as much information than for Hyppogryph knights, which we got, and Kislev bear cavalry, which CA would certainly add if Kislev is ever a race/campaign pack.

    This is on the lore side. On the gameplay side, this would be the "skink cavalry" Lizardmen lack at the moment. They would be really light cavalry, and would emphasize the skirmisher side of the Lizardmen roster, thus reinforcing this alternative to the Saurus/big dinos standard option. They could have a melee and a range version (blowpipes?)

    Stalker -> The Champion unit of Chameleon Skinks. As this would be an Oxyotl LP, adding the champion option as a regular unit like Shadow walkers for Alith Annar would make sense. This would be the "easy unit to add to the LP", while the Coatl, Troglodon and Culchan birds would be new models.

    TLDR;
    LL: Oxyotl
    Hero: Coatl
    Units: Troglodon, Culchan Riders (+weapon variants and maybe Culchan Herd), Stakers (champion chameleons)

    -> This would be a lore-compatible LP pack for Lizardmen.
  • TheWattmanTheWattman Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 305
    Another unit pick would be Skink Cold One Riders, based on Tichi-Huichi's raiders.

    Then there is the matter of new RORs, which can be Chameleon Skinks Eyes in the Canopy. There are a few other regiments connected to Xlanhuapec that also follow a pseudo-stealth theme.

    And then finally, blessed units. Just an update to include all the current units or a rework to the Blessed system itself.
  • PoorManatee6197PoorManatee6197 Registered Users Posts: 951
    I preffer Tetto'eko, i think CA could do something very interesting with his ability to see the future and his goal of destroying Morrslieb.

    In a perfect world we would get 1 of them in a lord pack and the other as FLC (with Chakax as a legendary hero, why not?). But i dont think we will be so lucky.
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  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,376

    I preffer Tetto'eko, i think CA could do something very interesting with his ability to see the future and his goal of destroying Morrslieb.

    In a perfect world we would get 1 of them in a lord pack and the other as FLC (with Chakax as a legendary hero, why not?). But i dont think we will be so lucky.

    Who knows? Plenty of content left for the series. We might just get Tetto'eko, Chakax, and Oxyotl.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 14,359
    MiniaAr said:

    Well as said before, there is potential for additional Lizardmen units, but one has to go "deep into the lore" and not rely only on army books.

    But it's possible and would look good in my opinion:

    LL: Oxyotl
    Hero: Coatl -> Greenskins got the Toll Hag which had similar foundations in the lore. Coatl I think could be a lord choice but not general in the TT. In TWWH this would likely translate in a wizard hero choice. They had Life, Light and Heavens as magic lore. I see them more having a mix of the three, like Mazdamundi than the full three lores. Also, we already have Heavens skink priests.

    Units:
    Troglodon -> the only real missing unit from the army book. I see them more as a Unit with bound abilities and yes they should have a skink oracle on their back. Alternatively, skink Oracle could be the hero choice and the Coatl the monster with bound spells. This would open the possibility of a "Feral Troglodon" as a unit. But I do not really like this idea.

    Culchan Riders -> This is the "dig deep into the lore" part, but from official sources:
    - Lizardmen 7th edition, p33/8th edition p24:

    Further south still, where the jungle gives way to the Culchan Plains, is to be found Oyxl, the Eternal City. Though ruined, the city's Great Pyramid is still attended by Skink Priests. Many of the Sking fighters who guard them have mastered the carnivorous, flightless birds that roam the plains, patrolling far from the city upon their unusual mounts".


    I would argue that this is as much information than for Hyppogryph knights, which we got, and Kislev bear cavalry, which CA would certainly add if Kislev is ever a race/campaign pack.

    This is on the lore side. On the gameplay side, this would be the "skink cavalry" Lizardmen lack at the moment. They would be really light cavalry, and would emphasize the skirmisher side of the Lizardmen roster, thus reinforcing this alternative to the Saurus/big dinos standard option. They could have a melee and a range version (blowpipes?)

    Stalker -> The Champion unit of Chameleon Skinks. As this would be an Oxyotl LP, adding the champion option as a regular unit like Shadow walkers for Alith Annar would make sense. This would be the "easy unit to add to the LP", while the Coatl, Troglodon and Culchan birds would be new models.

    TLDR;
    LL: Oxyotl
    Hero: Coatl
    Units: Troglodon, Culchan Riders (+weapon variants and maybe Culchan Herd), Stakers (champion chameleons)

    -> This would be a lore-compatible LP pack for Lizardmen.
    I really like the idea of Stalkers as a unit! There definitely needs to be a better variant of Chameleon Skinks to make Oxyotl enjoyable.
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,376
    ArneSo said:

    MiniaAr said:

    Well as said before, there is potential for additional Lizardmen units, but one has to go "deep into the lore" and not rely only on army books.

    But it's possible and would look good in my opinion:

    LL: Oxyotl
    Hero: Coatl -> Greenskins got the Toll Hag which had similar foundations in the lore. Coatl I think could be a lord choice but not general in the TT. In TWWH this would likely translate in a wizard hero choice. They had Life, Light and Heavens as magic lore. I see them more having a mix of the three, like Mazdamundi than the full three lores. Also, we already have Heavens skink priests.

    Units:
    Troglodon -> the only real missing unit from the army book. I see them more as a Unit with bound abilities and yes they should have a skink oracle on their back. Alternatively, skink Oracle could be the hero choice and the Coatl the monster with bound spells. This would open the possibility of a "Feral Troglodon" as a unit. But I do not really like this idea.

    Culchan Riders -> This is the "dig deep into the lore" part, but from official sources:
    - Lizardmen 7th edition, p33/8th edition p24:

    Further south still, where the jungle gives way to the Culchan Plains, is to be found Oyxl, the Eternal City. Though ruined, the city's Great Pyramid is still attended by Skink Priests. Many of the Sking fighters who guard them have mastered the carnivorous, flightless birds that roam the plains, patrolling far from the city upon their unusual mounts".


    I would argue that this is as much information than for Hyppogryph knights, which we got, and Kislev bear cavalry, which CA would certainly add if Kislev is ever a race/campaign pack.

    This is on the lore side. On the gameplay side, this would be the "skink cavalry" Lizardmen lack at the moment. They would be really light cavalry, and would emphasize the skirmisher side of the Lizardmen roster, thus reinforcing this alternative to the Saurus/big dinos standard option. They could have a melee and a range version (blowpipes?)

    Stalker -> The Champion unit of Chameleon Skinks. As this would be an Oxyotl LP, adding the champion option as a regular unit like Shadow walkers for Alith Annar would make sense. This would be the "easy unit to add to the LP", while the Coatl, Troglodon and Culchan birds would be new models.

    TLDR;
    LL: Oxyotl
    Hero: Coatl
    Units: Troglodon, Culchan Riders (+weapon variants and maybe Culchan Herd), Stakers (champion chameleons)

    -> This would be a lore-compatible LP pack for Lizardmen.
    I really like the idea of Stalkers as a unit! There definitely needs to be a better variant of Chameleon Skinks to make Oxyotl enjoyable.
    Seconded.
  • ZelnikZelnik Registered Users Posts: 492

    Zelnik said:

    First: He would not be placed in the east because Cathay and Ind will never be in the game.

    Stop trying to weasel it in you troglodytes.

    Secondly: There are other LM units missing, specifically the Cotl. As much as I desperately want Oxyotl, we are more likely to get Tetto'ekko as a LL. Which I am Ok with because giant comets are awesome.

    Welp, Cathay might make it in, and it might not. I don't suppose you have confirmation from CA on the matter, so for the time being I'm going to assume it is still an option.

    And I included the Coatl. Please read the entire post if you bother to say I missed something.

    In regards to Tetto'eko or Oxyotl, porque no los dos?
    No, it has been clearly stated that they will not be.

    Because GW doesn't want them, despite CA's chinese masters.
  • ArneSoArneSo Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 14,359
    Zelnik said:

    Zelnik said:

    First: He would not be placed in the east because Cathay and Ind will never be in the game.

    Stop trying to weasel it in you troglodytes.

    Secondly: There are other LM units missing, specifically the Cotl. As much as I desperately want Oxyotl, we are more likely to get Tetto'ekko as a LL. Which I am Ok with because giant comets are awesome.

    Welp, Cathay might make it in, and it might not. I don't suppose you have confirmation from CA on the matter, so for the time being I'm going to assume it is still an option.

    And I included the Coatl. Please read the entire post if you bother to say I missed something.

    In regards to Tetto'eko or Oxyotl, porque no los dos?
    No, it has been clearly stated that they will not be.

    Because GW doesn't want them, despite CA's chinese masters.
    Citation needed
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,376
    Zelnik said:

    Zelnik said:

    First: He would not be placed in the east because Cathay and Ind will never be in the game.

    Stop trying to weasel it in you troglodytes.

    Secondly: There are other LM units missing, specifically the Cotl. As much as I desperately want Oxyotl, we are more likely to get Tetto'ekko as a LL. Which I am Ok with because giant comets are awesome.

    Welp, Cathay might make it in, and it might not. I don't suppose you have confirmation from CA on the matter, so for the time being I'm going to assume it is still an option.

    And I included the Coatl. Please read the entire post if you bother to say I missed something.

    In regards to Tetto'eko or Oxyotl, porque no los dos?
    No, it has been clearly stated that they will not be.

    Because GW doesn't want them, despite CA's chinese masters.
    At no point has CA stated that Cathay will not be coming.
    In fact, I think the only thing CA has said about Cathay was a "thank you" to a group of people who sent them a fan-made map of Cathay in style of TW:W maps.
  • RomeoRejectRomeoReject Registered Users Posts: 1,695
    ArneSo said:

    Zelnik said:

    Zelnik said:

    First: He would not be placed in the east because Cathay and Ind will never be in the game.

    Stop trying to weasel it in you troglodytes.

    Secondly: There are other LM units missing, specifically the Cotl. As much as I desperately want Oxyotl, we are more likely to get Tetto'ekko as a LL. Which I am Ok with because giant comets are awesome.

    Welp, Cathay might make it in, and it might not. I don't suppose you have confirmation from CA on the matter, so for the time being I'm going to assume it is still an option.

    And I included the Coatl. Please read the entire post if you bother to say I missed something.

    In regards to Tetto'eko or Oxyotl, porque no los dos?
    No, it has been clearly stated that they will not be.

    Because GW doesn't want them, despite CA's chinese masters.
    Citation needed
    I'm thinking [Citation Unavailable, because they plucked this directly from their backside]
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