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Skaven Tweaks

Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 25,186
Skaven are still not quite where I wish their playstyle should be, so here are some suggestions:

1.Change offensive ambush to only work in either #1 regions owned by Skaven or #2 regions with 50+% Skaven corruption. The reasoning being that all the Skaven infesting an area are spying on enemies roaming about and therefore relay the information necessary to pull the ambush off. Please also make Skaven ambushes always pure 1v1

2.Move the Plagueclaw Catapult to T4 of the Pestilens building chain and move the Warp Lightning Cannon down to T3 in the Skryre building chain. The Plagueclaw is a Pestilens unit and also way, WAY more useful than the WLC. It's only logical that they switch tiers. It would also give people reason to bother with the Pestilens building chain and fill the gap between T3 and T5 of that chain that currently contains nothing

3.Remove decay from MfB Clanrats but also narrow their appearance down to an area surrounding the lord. MfB Clanrats should work as the Skaven way of demonstrating their overwhelming numbers, so them being short-term summons doesn't work. But since persistent all-range summons would be grossly OP, they should only appear in more predictable positions

4.Attach the Scrap feature to Ikit's Workshop. You research an upgrade in the workshop but then you need to individually apply each upgrade to single units instead of all of them suddenly gaining massive performance boosts. Upgrading a unit should cost 1 Warpfuel as well. Unlike scrap allow applying up to three upgrades to any single unit

5.Remove the food cost from Skaven armies, instead have higher tiered Skaven settlements cost additional food. So T1-3 1 food, T4 3 food an T5 5 food for example. Skaven should be encouraged to go wide instead of tall and they for sure should not be softcapped in how many armies they can have, especially not when Dwarfs and Elves do not get such softcaps despite them being way more justified in their cases

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Comments

  • TotalWar78TotalWar78 Registered Users Posts: 339
    I would also add, Under cities to be permanent after reaching level 5.
  • EthorinEthorin Registered Users Posts: 283
    ..."let's make Skaven unplayable until T4, that's a GREAT idea, let's also make it so you always need raiding forces out and about just to break even once you have the ability to get armies that can kill things without the Lord doing all the work, also let's remove the best tool Skaven have for dealing with other artillery without their own artillery so they can't do that terribly well either!" "Brilliant, let's also make it entirely impossible for Ikit Claw to do Ikit Claw things factionwide and limit him to just a few upgraded units!"

    I'd almost agree with attaching scap type mechanic to Ikit Claw, but then you'd either need to up the drop rate on Warpfuel or add ANOTHER resource that could be more plentiful.

    Skaven already have a tough enough time until Tier 3, they don't need to be rendered unworkable until T4.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 25,186
    edited June 22
    Ethorin said:

    ..."let's make Skaven unplayable until T4, that's a GREAT idea, let's also make it so you always need raiding forces out and about just to break even once you have the ability to get armies that can kill things without the Lord doing all the work, also let's remove the best tool Skaven have for dealing with other artillery without their own artillery so they can't do that terribly well either!" "Brilliant, let's also make it entirely impossible for Ikit Claw to do Ikit Claw things factionwide and limit him to just a few upgraded units!"

    I'd almost agree with attaching scap type mechanic to Ikit Claw, but then you'd either need to up the drop rate on Warpfuel or add ANOTHER resource that could be more plentiful.

    Skaven already have a tough enough time until Tier 3, they don't need to be rendered unworkable until T4.

    Nope, wrong. I know for sure because I use mods that kind of achieve what I've outlined above and I know not only that it's possible to play that way, it's also less boring since you can't just lean on a bunch of shooty units dissolving the enemy lines before they come even close. Warpfirethrowers and Globadiers are really good units, in vanilla however you wouldn't notice because you can go straight for Jezzails and PWMs.

    Ikit Claw buffing units that area already damn powerful and autopicks also isn't something worthy of defense, sorry, but I'd rather have to pick my upgrades than narrow down my building options even further by making the shooty stuff even more OP.

  • EthorinEthorin Registered Users Posts: 283

    Ethorin said:

    ..."let's make Skaven unplayable until T4, that's a GREAT idea, let's also make it so you always need raiding forces out and about just to break even once you have the ability to get armies that can kill things without the Lord doing all the work, also let's remove the best tool Skaven have for dealing with other artillery without their own artillery so they can't do that terribly well either!" "Brilliant, let's also make it entirely impossible for Ikit Claw to do Ikit Claw things factionwide and limit him to just a few upgraded units!"

    I'd almost agree with attaching scap type mechanic to Ikit Claw, but then you'd either need to up the drop rate on Warpfuel or add ANOTHER resource that could be more plentiful.

    Skaven already have a tough enough time until Tier 3, they don't need to be rendered unworkable until T4.

    Nope, wrong. I know for sure because I use mods that kind of achieve what I've outlined above and I know not only that it's possible to play that way, it's also less boring since you can't just lean on a bunch of shooty units dissolving the enemy lines before they come even close. Warpfirethrowers and Globadiers are really good units, in vanilla however you wouldn't notice because you can go straight for Jezzails and PWMs.

    Ikit Claw buffing units that area already damn powerful and autopicks also isn't something worthy of defense, sorry, but I'd rather have to pick my upgrades than narrow down my building options even further by making the shooty stuff even more OP.
    Yeah... somehow, I never manage to see Warpfire Throwers and Globadiers actually get into range to hit anything, they get wiped too fast. Seriously, even unteched Darkshards outrange them, freaking GOBBO'S outrange them. Just about the only faction with ranged units that don't are Empire(counting the Skirmish Cav which prolly won't be their only ranged) and Lizzies, and both of those STILL have ranged that outranges them.
  • TayvarTayvar Registered Users Posts: 12,067

    Attach the Scrap feature to Ikit's Workshop. You research an upgrade in the workshop but then you need to individually apply each upgrade to single units instead of all of them suddenly gaining massive performance boosts. Upgrading a unit should cost 1 Warpfuel as well. Unlike scrap allow applying up to three upgrades to any single unit.

    The "scrap" feature should be a base feature like "rites", all factions can upgrade their units.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 25,186
    edited June 22
    Ethorin said:

    Ethorin said:

    ..."let's make Skaven unplayable until T4, that's a GREAT idea, let's also make it so you always need raiding forces out and about just to break even once you have the ability to get armies that can kill things without the Lord doing all the work, also let's remove the best tool Skaven have for dealing with other artillery without their own artillery so they can't do that terribly well either!" "Brilliant, let's also make it entirely impossible for Ikit Claw to do Ikit Claw things factionwide and limit him to just a few upgraded units!"

    I'd almost agree with attaching scap type mechanic to Ikit Claw, but then you'd either need to up the drop rate on Warpfuel or add ANOTHER resource that could be more plentiful.

    Skaven already have a tough enough time until Tier 3, they don't need to be rendered unworkable until T4.

    Nope, wrong. I know for sure because I use mods that kind of achieve what I've outlined above and I know not only that it's possible to play that way, it's also less boring since you can't just lean on a bunch of shooty units dissolving the enemy lines before they come even close. Warpfirethrowers and Globadiers are really good units, in vanilla however you wouldn't notice because you can go straight for Jezzails and PWMs.

    Ikit Claw buffing units that area already damn powerful and autopicks also isn't something worthy of defense, sorry, but I'd rather have to pick my upgrades than narrow down my building options even further by making the shooty stuff even more OP.
    Yeah... somehow, I never manage to see Warpfire Throwers and Globadiers actually get into range to hit anything, they get wiped too fast. Seriously, even unteched Darkshards outrange them, freaking GOBBO'S outrange them. Just about the only faction with ranged units that don't are Empire(counting the Skirmish Cav which prolly won't be their only ranged) and Lizzies, and both of those STILL have ranged that outranges them.
    LoL, so that's it, huh? You're not good enough to make those units work, therefore they can't possibly be useful, huh?

    Sorry, against the AI it's more than possible to make those units work. In fact, Warpfirethrowers are one of the main ways to deal with Saurus spam.

    I recommend you play on easy instead.

  • SerPusSerPus Registered Users Posts: 2,104
    Seems reasonable. Plagueclaw Catapults being in Skryre building chain doesn't feel right.
  • LordCommanderLordCommander Registered Users Posts: 1,313
    Support all of these, number 1 especially. I think either #1 or #2 is fine as long as it is changed to something less inane.
  • ReeksReeks Registered Users Posts: 3,223
    Well thought out suggestions, i approve and agree.
  • Lord_DistamorfinLord_Distamorfin Registered Users Posts: 1,010
    1. This I definitely agree with. Offensive ambush is fine in some circumstances, but it's absolutely unacceptable that the Skaven can catch you marching when you're sieging their damned city or in an encampment stance. Skaven corruption, as I understand it, is a measure of how numerous the Skaven are in a region and how many tunnel networks they have, so linking it to corruption makes some sense.

    3. I'll go one step further: remove summon decay from everything. It was only added to appease MP players and is stupid and nonsensical in the vast majority of circumstances. Summoned units are no different from other units, so they shouldn't drop dead for no reason.

    4. I'm fairly ambivalent about this. It could be a good way to limit how overpowered the Workshop is, but Warpfuel drops would probably have to be rebalanced for it to be fair.
  • EthorinEthorin Registered Users Posts: 283

    Ethorin said:

    Ethorin said:

    ..."let's make Skaven unplayable until T4, that's a GREAT idea, let's also make it so you always need raiding forces out and about just to break even once you have the ability to get armies that can kill things without the Lord doing all the work, also let's remove the best tool Skaven have for dealing with other artillery without their own artillery so they can't do that terribly well either!" "Brilliant, let's also make it entirely impossible for Ikit Claw to do Ikit Claw things factionwide and limit him to just a few upgraded units!"

    I'd almost agree with attaching scap type mechanic to Ikit Claw, but then you'd either need to up the drop rate on Warpfuel or add ANOTHER resource that could be more plentiful.

    Skaven already have a tough enough time until Tier 3, they don't need to be rendered unworkable until T4.

    Nope, wrong. I know for sure because I use mods that kind of achieve what I've outlined above and I know not only that it's possible to play that way, it's also less boring since you can't just lean on a bunch of shooty units dissolving the enemy lines before they come even close. Warpfirethrowers and Globadiers are really good units, in vanilla however you wouldn't notice because you can go straight for Jezzails and PWMs.

    Ikit Claw buffing units that area already damn powerful and autopicks also isn't something worthy of defense, sorry, but I'd rather have to pick my upgrades than narrow down my building options even further by making the shooty stuff even more OP.
    Yeah... somehow, I never manage to see Warpfire Throwers and Globadiers actually get into range to hit anything, they get wiped too fast. Seriously, even unteched Darkshards outrange them, freaking GOBBO'S outrange them. Just about the only faction with ranged units that don't are Empire(counting the Skirmish Cav which prolly won't be their only ranged) and Lizzies, and both of those STILL have ranged that outranges them.
    LoL, so that's it, huh? You're not good enough to make those units work, therefore they can't possibly be useful, huh?

    Sorry, against the AI it's more than possible to make those units work. In fact, Warpfirethrowers are one of the main ways to deal with Saurus spam.

    I recommend you play on easy instead.
    Against the AI literally anything works.

    I'm talking about when I'm fighting the AI.

    There's a dude on this forum who SWEARS by Skavenslave Slingers as the be all end all of Skavendom. That doesn't make Skavenslave Slingers good.
  • LordMolochLordMoloch Registered Users Posts: 108
    Ethorin said:

    ..."let's make Skaven unplayable until T4, that's a GREAT idea, let's also make it so you always need raiding forces out and about just to break even once you have the ability to get armies that can kill things without the Lord doing all the work, also let's remove the best tool Skaven have for dealing with other artillery without their own artillery so they can't do that terribly well either!" "Brilliant, let's also make it entirely impossible for Ikit Claw to do Ikit Claw things factionwide and limit him to just a few upgraded units!"

    I'd almost agree with attaching scap type mechanic to Ikit Claw, but then you'd either need to up the drop rate on Warpfuel or add ANOTHER resource that could be more plentiful.

    Skaven already have a tough enough time until Tier 3, they don't need to be rendered unworkable until T4.

    Mate, when I'm playing as Skaven the enemy are more or less effed from the second I get Warpfire Throwers. They're double-effed when I get Rattling Guns. Plagueclaws are great, but you can totally go through armies with Warp Lightning Cannons instead.
  • elkappelkapp Registered Users Posts: 62
    1. That's probably an excessive nerf. Also, if it were to be put into the game, i would make that if you play clan eshin or your lord is Snikch or a master assassin, you would always have the ability to ambush.
    2. Agree with moving the plage claw catapults in the pestilens building, but that's still an excessive nerf. Warp lightning cannons are not that bad, just the ai atm is programmed to recruit mostly infantry armies (except things like the primeval glory army), so overall the catapults appear more useful. I would change that instead of putting another skaven unit in t4.
    3. That seems something that will make skaven ai even weaker. Combined the nerf to the stalk stance nerf in the first point, they will probably become greenskins before their update (aka **** that exist only thanks to cheats). For the player instead that won't be too bad, but that's because the player knows which units are meta and will spam them and most importantly will use them correctly. Units like warpfire throwers and ratling are not used effectively by the ai and can be sniped easily with ranged fire (ai tbh is only decent at protecting their flank, which won't be that bad if cavalry wasn't mostly terrible in this game).
    4. Not a bad idea but it suffers from a couple of problems: 1) you should get way more warpfire fuel, which is not that bad just make the skryre building or the reactor give a steady ammount per turn, or even give assassins or the engineers an ability like the high elves nobles where you get some warpfire fuel from agent actions against settlements; 2) aka the real problem, if you use the same system where you can only choose one upgrade then everyone will take the same upgrades because some of them outclass the others. This can be fixed if we allow all the upgrades to be bought. Personally, i would, instead of using the upgrade system to nerf skryre buffs, use the xp such that the units need to be of a certain level to access the buffs. For example, ratling gun, lvl 0 you get +15% reload, lvl 3 +10% ammo +10% dmg, lvl 6 replenishing ammo (effective levels may vary from what i have wrote, even vary for different units, but at least you have a challenge).
    5. Now, first of all, food in a skaven campaign is not a problem. If you use the undercities wisely and don't sit on your butt the entire campaign you won't have any issue with food. Second, skaven already have easy to recruit skavenslaves which imo are already good low tier units. The reason why no one actually spam skavenslaves armies (except maybe at the start of the campaign) is because 1) their dmg output is insignificant, they don't deal damage they hold the enemy back and tbh they do a good job at it, and 2) the supply lines prevent you from spamming armies. Now, you may say, why we don't get rid of supply lines? They got removed in the proving grounds, and it was funnier that way, right? It was fun playing dice with the ai in the first 20 turns and steamrolling in the following, right? No, honestly it was not. The only difficulty where that **** worked was normal, and not everyone want to play normal (expecially me). And, honestly, as i wrote above, i don't think that things should change. You can use massive garbage armies as skaven and they do what they should do.
    Now, i want to suggest something.

    Instead of changing skryre units to make them less powerful, give the player another reason to use non-skryre units as other skaven clans. For example, right now there are no reason to get plague monks as clan pestilens, except for the fact that in they are cheap af in skrolk army, which is good, but in the early game. What i propose is that for all skaven factions (minus eshin, they already have their own system, and rictus just to make rictus more interesting) you get a malus when you recruit units that are not from your clan and a factionwide buff for your clan's specific units. This buff is divided in a buff you get from the faction itself (ex: if you play as clan pestilens, you get a buff for all pestilens unit and heroes) and a similar buff you get from the legendary lord. In this way if you are for example clan pestilens and confederate clan skryre you will be able to negate your malus towards skryre units with ikit claw's buffs, but still, at least on a "buff level", have stronger pestilens unit since you don't inherit the skryre faction's buffs, therefore still being clan pestilens if you were to confederate all the playable skaven clans instead of a "united skaven clan" (which you can still do, but only as rictus and eshin).
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 25,186

    Ethorin said:

    ..."let's make Skaven unplayable until T4, that's a GREAT idea, let's also make it so you always need raiding forces out and about just to break even once you have the ability to get armies that can kill things without the Lord doing all the work, also let's remove the best tool Skaven have for dealing with other artillery without their own artillery so they can't do that terribly well either!" "Brilliant, let's also make it entirely impossible for Ikit Claw to do Ikit Claw things factionwide and limit him to just a few upgraded units!"

    I'd almost agree with attaching scap type mechanic to Ikit Claw, but then you'd either need to up the drop rate on Warpfuel or add ANOTHER resource that could be more plentiful.

    Skaven already have a tough enough time until Tier 3, they don't need to be rendered unworkable until T4.

    Mate, when I'm playing as Skaven the enemy are more or less effed from the second I get Warpfire Throwers. They're double-effed when I get Rattling Guns. Plagueclaws are great, but you can totally go through armies with Warp Lightning Cannons instead.
    Yep, and both unlock at the same tier. Warpfirethrowers are one of my workhorse units after CA finally fixed them several patches ago. Saying they don't work either means someone isn't trying or simply doesn't have the patience or skill to properly position them.

  • EthorinEthorin Registered Users Posts: 283

    Ethorin said:

    ..."let's make Skaven unplayable until T4, that's a GREAT idea, let's also make it so you always need raiding forces out and about just to break even once you have the ability to get armies that can kill things without the Lord doing all the work, also let's remove the best tool Skaven have for dealing with other artillery without their own artillery so they can't do that terribly well either!" "Brilliant, let's also make it entirely impossible for Ikit Claw to do Ikit Claw things factionwide and limit him to just a few upgraded units!"

    I'd almost agree with attaching scap type mechanic to Ikit Claw, but then you'd either need to up the drop rate on Warpfuel or add ANOTHER resource that could be more plentiful.

    Skaven already have a tough enough time until Tier 3, they don't need to be rendered unworkable until T4.

    Mate, when I'm playing as Skaven the enemy are more or less effed from the second I get Warpfire Throwers. They're double-effed when I get Rattling Guns. Plagueclaws are great, but you can totally go through armies with Warp Lightning Cannons instead.
    Yep, and both unlock at the same tier. Warpfirethrowers are one of my workhorse units after CA finally fixed them several patches ago. Saying they don't work either means someone isn't trying or simply doesn't have the patience or skill to properly position them.
    I don't like to use stuff that I have to constantly babysit, I have enough to worry about with casters. But also, whenever I see Warpfires or Globadiers in the AI stacks I go "YAY, this'll be easy"

    AI Skaven is already a non threat IME, I don't get why people insist they need nerfing.
  • TennisgolfbollTennisgolfboll Registered Users Posts: 9,070
    All good ideas OP
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • angry_rat_loverangry_rat_lover Registered Users Posts: 1,205
    Yes I like these suggestions
    Soon
  • JastallJastall Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,141
    Ethorin said:

    Ethorin said:

    ..."let's make Skaven unplayable until T4, that's a GREAT idea, let's also make it so you always need raiding forces out and about just to break even once you have the ability to get armies that can kill things without the Lord doing all the work, also let's remove the best tool Skaven have for dealing with other artillery without their own artillery so they can't do that terribly well either!" "Brilliant, let's also make it entirely impossible for Ikit Claw to do Ikit Claw things factionwide and limit him to just a few upgraded units!"

    I'd almost agree with attaching scap type mechanic to Ikit Claw, but then you'd either need to up the drop rate on Warpfuel or add ANOTHER resource that could be more plentiful.

    Skaven already have a tough enough time until Tier 3, they don't need to be rendered unworkable until T4.

    Mate, when I'm playing as Skaven the enemy are more or less effed from the second I get Warpfire Throwers. They're double-effed when I get Rattling Guns. Plagueclaws are great, but you can totally go through armies with Warp Lightning Cannons instead.
    Yep, and both unlock at the same tier. Warpfirethrowers are one of my workhorse units after CA finally fixed them several patches ago. Saying they don't work either means someone isn't trying or simply doesn't have the patience or skill to properly position them.
    I don't like to use stuff that I have to constantly babysit, I have enough to worry about with casters. But also, whenever I see Warpfires or Globadiers in the AI stacks I go "YAY, this'll be easy"

    AI Skaven is already a non threat IME, I don't get why people insist they need nerfing.
    They're annoying as hell to besiege, but yeah in the field Skaven are definitely one of the easiest factions to face because most of their power comes from weapon teams, and the AI is terrible at using and protecting them. A full ninja rat build can be extraordinarily unfun to fight if you lack ranged firepower and/or light cavalry, however.
  • Ephraim_DaltonEphraim_Dalton Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 25,186
    edited June 22
    Ethorin said:

    Ethorin said:

    ..."let's make Skaven unplayable until T4, that's a GREAT idea, let's also make it so you always need raiding forces out and about just to break even once you have the ability to get armies that can kill things without the Lord doing all the work, also let's remove the best tool Skaven have for dealing with other artillery without their own artillery so they can't do that terribly well either!" "Brilliant, let's also make it entirely impossible for Ikit Claw to do Ikit Claw things factionwide and limit him to just a few upgraded units!"

    I'd almost agree with attaching scap type mechanic to Ikit Claw, but then you'd either need to up the drop rate on Warpfuel or add ANOTHER resource that could be more plentiful.

    Skaven already have a tough enough time until Tier 3, they don't need to be rendered unworkable until T4.

    Mate, when I'm playing as Skaven the enemy are more or less effed from the second I get Warpfire Throwers. They're double-effed when I get Rattling Guns. Plagueclaws are great, but you can totally go through armies with Warp Lightning Cannons instead.
    Yep, and both unlock at the same tier. Warpfirethrowers are one of my workhorse units after CA finally fixed them several patches ago. Saying they don't work either means someone isn't trying or simply doesn't have the patience or skill to properly position them.
    I don't like to use stuff that I have to constantly babysit, I have enough to worry about with casters. But also, whenever I see Warpfires or Globadiers in the AI stacks I go "YAY, this'll be easy"

    AI Skaven is already a non threat IME, I don't get why people insist they need nerfing.
    Weak, very weak. Both Warpfirethrowers and Globadiers are units with big payoffs for skillful use. You not being good with them concerns me. Not. One. Bit. Also, what do I care about stomping the AI? That's not an argument either unless you want to see both units buffed when used by the AI.

    Also, I can tell you haven't played against Skaven much lately (or you play on easy), because currently they absolutely swamp you with units and stacks and that's actually a challenge in itself.

    Skaven right now don't need to have the advantages that come with the Offensive Ambush and I don't think Warpfuel acquisition needs to be upped either for a simple reason, upgrading units is a pure bonus. The units are pretty strong at base already and Clan Skryre has no disadvantage that would require those particular units to overperform.

    Also, I'd like CA to add the Warp Lightning Cannon to the workshop. It's the one Skryre unit currently missing from it.

  • neodeinosneodeinos Registered Users Posts: 5,726
    The tweak for the offensive stance is a bit excessive imo but I do agree it needs to be changed. I would cap the Ambush chance at 50% instead.
  • ReeksReeks Registered Users Posts: 3,223
    neodeinos said:

    The tweak for the offensive stance is a bit excessive imo but I do agree it needs to be changed. I would cap the Ambush chance at 50% instead.

    I like the idea that offensive ambush should only work in Skaven lands, more specialized tactics is a + in my book, still makes for a really powerful tool in the right circumstances and not not blatantly OP as it is currently, i would want Skaven to be able to use ambush stance everywhere though.


    @ED while i agree with your suggestions to a degree i think that tying the purposed "scrap upgrades" to the current warp fuel system would be a mistake, the frequency when warp fuel is acquired is subpar for such a purpose to say the least, i rather they made the scrap upgrade less significant yet readily available if it´s power creep that is the worry, getting a new mechanic that you can use only once every new moon and only for 2% of your units would be anti fun really.
  • EthorinEthorin Registered Users Posts: 283

    Ethorin said:

    Ethorin said:

    ..."let's make Skaven unplayable until T4, that's a GREAT idea, let's also make it so you always need raiding forces out and about just to break even once you have the ability to get armies that can kill things without the Lord doing all the work, also let's remove the best tool Skaven have for dealing with other artillery without their own artillery so they can't do that terribly well either!" "Brilliant, let's also make it entirely impossible for Ikit Claw to do Ikit Claw things factionwide and limit him to just a few upgraded units!"

    I'd almost agree with attaching scap type mechanic to Ikit Claw, but then you'd either need to up the drop rate on Warpfuel or add ANOTHER resource that could be more plentiful.

    Skaven already have a tough enough time until Tier 3, they don't need to be rendered unworkable until T4.

    Mate, when I'm playing as Skaven the enemy are more or less effed from the second I get Warpfire Throwers. They're double-effed when I get Rattling Guns. Plagueclaws are great, but you can totally go through armies with Warp Lightning Cannons instead.
    Yep, and both unlock at the same tier. Warpfirethrowers are one of my workhorse units after CA finally fixed them several patches ago. Saying they don't work either means someone isn't trying or simply doesn't have the patience or skill to properly position them.
    I don't like to use stuff that I have to constantly babysit, I have enough to worry about with casters. But also, whenever I see Warpfires or Globadiers in the AI stacks I go "YAY, this'll be easy"

    AI Skaven is already a non threat IME, I don't get why people insist they need nerfing.
    Weak, very weak. Both Warpfirethrowers and Globadiers are units with big payoffs for skillful use. You not being good with them concerns me. Not. One. Bit. Also, what do I care about stomping the AI? That's not an argument either unless you want to see both units buffed when used by the AI.

    Also, I can tell you haven't played against Skaven much lately (or you play on easy), because currently they absolutely swamp you with units and stacks and that's actually a challenge in itself.

    Skaven right now don't need to have the advantages that come with the Offensive Ambush and I don't think Warpfuel acquisition needs to be upped either for a simple reason, upgrading units is a pure bonus. The units are pretty strong at base already and Clan Skryre has no disadvantage that would require those particular units to overperform.

    Also, I'd like CA to add the Warp Lightning Cannon to the workshop. It's the one Skryre unit currently missing from it.
    I play on Normal/Normal, Archers with Light Armor will beat clanrats in melee 100% of the time and take minimal losses doing it. Spearmen can take two units of Skavenslaves or Clanrats easy(unless you let them flank you, then it can be dicey) and ANY wind or vortex makes beating Skaven a formality when they spam stacks at you.

    Yes, I too have seen the six stacks of Skavenslaves off one minor settlement, it's an utter nonthreat to any half decent army.(literally by the way, I was playing Imrik and was wondering why Rictus Clan-Nest hadn't declared war on me, then Grimgor went Waagh on Mount Greyhag and I was like "oh, that's why, too busy losing to the greenskins", then I went on a desperate effort to NOT be bordering a Grimgor who just won a Waaagh, that was fun. While I was doing that they were spamming skavenslave armies. they had six full stacks of them at one point.)

    If you are playing on higher battle difficulties and finding Skaven basic trash a threat that's more an indictment of how skewed battle difficulty makes things than a reason to nerf Skaven.
  • Michael4537Michael4537 Registered Users Posts: 2,361
    Ethorin said:

    Ethorin said:

    ..."let's make Skaven unplayable until T4, that's a GREAT idea, let's also make it so you always need raiding forces out and about just to break even once you have the ability to get armies that can kill things without the Lord doing all the work, also let's remove the best tool Skaven have for dealing with other artillery without their own artillery so they can't do that terribly well either!" "Brilliant, let's also make it entirely impossible for Ikit Claw to do Ikit Claw things factionwide and limit him to just a few upgraded units!"

    I'd almost agree with attaching scap type mechanic to Ikit Claw, but then you'd either need to up the drop rate on Warpfuel or add ANOTHER resource that could be more plentiful.

    Skaven already have a tough enough time until Tier 3, they don't need to be rendered unworkable until T4.

    Nope, wrong. I know for sure because I use mods that kind of achieve what I've outlined above and I know not only that it's possible to play that way, it's also less boring since you can't just lean on a bunch of shooty units dissolving the enemy lines before they come even close. Warpfirethrowers and Globadiers are really good units, in vanilla however you wouldn't notice because you can go straight for Jezzails and PWMs.

    Ikit Claw buffing units that area already damn powerful and autopicks also isn't something worthy of defense, sorry, but I'd rather have to pick my upgrades than narrow down my building options even further by making the shooty stuff even more OP.
    Yeah... somehow, I never manage to see Warpfire Throwers and Globadiers actually get into range to hit anything, they get wiped too fast. Seriously, even unteched Darkshards outrange them, freaking GOBBO'S outrange them. Just about the only faction with ranged units that don't are Empire(counting the Skirmish Cav which prolly won't be their only ranged) and Lizzies, and both of those STILL have ranged that outranges them.
    Can confirm Warpfire Throwers work wonders against the AI. One of my favorite campaign units. Sure you have short range but you will quite literally melt anything once you get in range.
  • EthorinEthorin Registered Users Posts: 283

    Ethorin said:

    Ethorin said:

    ..."let's make Skaven unplayable until T4, that's a GREAT idea, let's also make it so you always need raiding forces out and about just to break even once you have the ability to get armies that can kill things without the Lord doing all the work, also let's remove the best tool Skaven have for dealing with other artillery without their own artillery so they can't do that terribly well either!" "Brilliant, let's also make it entirely impossible for Ikit Claw to do Ikit Claw things factionwide and limit him to just a few upgraded units!"

    I'd almost agree with attaching scap type mechanic to Ikit Claw, but then you'd either need to up the drop rate on Warpfuel or add ANOTHER resource that could be more plentiful.

    Skaven already have a tough enough time until Tier 3, they don't need to be rendered unworkable until T4.

    Nope, wrong. I know for sure because I use mods that kind of achieve what I've outlined above and I know not only that it's possible to play that way, it's also less boring since you can't just lean on a bunch of shooty units dissolving the enemy lines before they come even close. Warpfirethrowers and Globadiers are really good units, in vanilla however you wouldn't notice because you can go straight for Jezzails and PWMs.

    Ikit Claw buffing units that area already damn powerful and autopicks also isn't something worthy of defense, sorry, but I'd rather have to pick my upgrades than narrow down my building options even further by making the shooty stuff even more OP.
    Yeah... somehow, I never manage to see Warpfire Throwers and Globadiers actually get into range to hit anything, they get wiped too fast. Seriously, even unteched Darkshards outrange them, freaking GOBBO'S outrange them. Just about the only faction with ranged units that don't are Empire(counting the Skirmish Cav which prolly won't be their only ranged) and Lizzies, and both of those STILL have ranged that outranges them.
    Can confirm Warpfire Throwers work wonders against the AI. One of my favorite campaign units. Sure you have short range but you will quite literally melt anything once you get in range.
    literally everything works against the AI, again, there's a dude on this forum who SWEARS Skavenslave Slingers is the true doomstack. But again, when I see Warpfire Throwers as the main killing power of the AI I go "this will be easier than normal". Just about only thing easier than Warpfire Throwers is full Slaves.
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